Comparative Review: Moots Compact, Pegoretti Duende and Pegoretti Marcelo

[reggiebaseball]

Rider details:
I am 6’4+ and riding at 210 lbs mid-season. In the off season I will get up to 235, in peak season down to 200. I ride about 300 miles per week in season, about 100 in the off-season. I am a middle-aged, relatively smooth on the bike, riding decently paved roads and bicycle trails, rolling terrain.

Bicycle Details:
1. Moot Compact, 2009, stock size 61.5 (72.5STA, 74.25HTA, 595 eff TT, 19.9HT) has a Chris King headset, 40mm rake Enve 2.0 fork, 130mm -10 stem
2. Pegoretti Duende, 2008, stock 59 (72 STA, 73.5HTA, 580 eff TT, 20.1HT) has a Tune Bobo headset, 45mm rake Reynolds Ouzo Pro, 140mm -6 stem
3. Pegoretti Marcelo, 2007-8?, custom “56.5” (?STA, ?HTA, 585 eff TT, 17.2HT) has a CK headset, 45mm rake Reynolds Ouzo Pro, 140mm -6 stem

All bicycles have Chorus 11 groups, Shimano Pro Vibe Carbon Round 44cm bars, Speedplay Frog Pedals, Fizik Carbon Cyrano post with Arione (CX) saddle, lizard skins DSP tape. The contact points of all bikes match to within 5mm or so, though their frame geometries differ slightly.

General Thoughts:
In my opinion ride quality is equal parts frame geometry, frame material, and wheel selection/tire pressure.

http://www.nycsportspics.com/moots/moots 2055.jpg
Moots Compact
The Moots is my “largest” bike. While it has a compact design with a sloping TT, it also has the largest effective TT. As advertised, the Ti material and Moots design provides the lightweight stiffness of a fine carbon bike, along with some of the smooth road characteristics of good steel. While I can stomp on the pedals and see BB flex while the bike sits in a stand, I have never felt even the slightest amount of “give” while actually riding this bike. It is impressively stiff under even the hardest sprinting efforts, like when I have to get the last apple fritter and it's getting late and I put out reality-bending wattage. It is incredibly easy to accelerate.
Kirk Frameworks has a great blog post from a year or three ago about bicycle stiffness that explains my dis-satisfaction with some uber-high end carbon bikes. I think they may actually be TOO stiff for my riding style and size, causing them to jump around under power and be twitchy. Geometry clearly plays a big part in this, but I do also think there is such a thing as “too stiff”. The Moots is sublimely, perfectly stiff, without ever being “too stiff” and loosing contact with the road.
That being said, the Moots requires you to be constantly “on the rivet”- while it accelerates like a banshee, it is so light that it seems to loose it's speed rapidly as well. I feel headwinds a bit more. The Moots provides the most “road feel” in this group, which is fun but also means more transmission of the high frequency little things that tend to tire my hands a bit more after a few hours (I don't wear gloves).
The Moots is paired with Lightweight Standard Gen 2 wheels, which are basically to other wheels what a Moots Ti is to frames – incredibly light, stiff and responsive. Great acceleration and road feel, but so light they do not hold momentum. I am running Vittoria Pave tires at 92psi. The additive effect of this frame plus these wheels may be “too much of a good thing” for a non elite racer type like me.


http://www.nycsportspics.com/moots/duende4.jpg
Pegoretti Duende
My Duende is a stock 59. This bike is a magic carpet. The geometry suits me like a second skin. On this bike I have a shorter TT than the Moots, but run a 2cm longer stem. I really like long stems in general, and I like a bike that allows me to use a 140 stem. It has a shallower seat tube angle by half a degree, and I like that it gets my butt out over the rear wheel. There is a slightly shorter (5mm) chainstay on this bike, but interestingly the measurement from rear to front dropout on this frame is 998mm, which is 2cm shorter than on the Moots. I find the geometry ideal and intuitive.

The Duende has all the amazing things you hear about steel bikes. It is SO smooth, and while you can feel flex it feels GOOD. Like plucking the strings of a good instrument, or drawing a nice wooden bow, or hitting a line drive with a wooden baseball bat, we should all know that flex is not necessarily a bad thing – that the sympathetic flex of a tool working with the rider can yield superior results. The front end of the Duende is impressively stiff and gives up nothing to the Moots. The rear end is definitely less stiff, but the result is that the rear wheel grips the pavement, stays in better contact even on rough terrain or under heavy sprints, and generally feels very “fast.”

So to compare – when I hit some short hills on the Moots I will stand up, drop 2-3 gears and mash my way up. As I loose momentum I will drop back those 2-3 gears while continuing to stand as I work my way up the hill. The bike is stiff and almost jumps as I jam up , I must concentrate a bit on my form.
On the Duende I will stand up without dropping any gears. It will seem almost too easy at first, but rather than spinning out (which would happen on the Moots), the Duende will start to sympathetically bounce side to side (the wheels are not skipping or jumping). I will be able to work up the hill without shifting, and by the top I will be carrying more momentum. The Duende is so eay to control that I do not have to concentrate at all on my form during this.

I know the Duende flexes, however I have never found the ride "flexy." I have never felt that it “sapped” any of my power. I am pretty sure Dario would NOT recommend a Duende for someone of my weight, he would say go for the stiffer Marcelo. However, for a regular person who is not racing for rent money or putting out 1800w sprints, I think the Duende is the perfect bike.

Duende accelerates like a coiled spring. It has a definite wind up, not as fast off the line as Moots by far. But Duende gets rolling like a steamroller! I would put my money on Duende in the quarter mile, I just feel like once it gets rolling it bombs along. Duende holds it's speed way better when I am not on the rivet, and seems less susceptible to headwinds. I actually always feel BETTER getting off Duende at the end of a ride than I did getting on. It is so comfortable, not only does it never hurt me, but it is almost like a trip to the massage therapist how it takes the kinks out.

Duende has some really nice, but uber cheap clinchers. Bikehubstore inexpensive hubs laced locally to some 23 wide 38 deep 480gram clincher rims 28/32. The wheels are at least 1660 grams, and wide rims make clincher tires SUPER FAT. I have a 23c on the front and a 25c Vittoria Open Corsa on the back 95/95psi). Again, these wheels really match the frame, very smooth, they handle big hits with aplomb, take a bit to get rolling, but hold their momentum really well.

http://www.nycsportspics.com/moots/meatballsmarcelo1.jpg
Pegoretti Marcelo
Marcelo is a bit of a custom (not for me) job. It is based off a 56.5 frame, a tleast that is the stamp on the BB but “fits like a 59” . Basically it doesn't have the HT or ST extensions, and the EFF TT looks to be 58.5, so it is stretched out (perhaps by slackening the STA?). Anyway it does indeed fit pretty much like a 59, though it seems to have 2cm longer wheelbase, little bit shorter chainstay.

I am still working on fit and getting comfortable on the Marcelo, it has about 1200km on it, which is by far the least of the three bikes being discussed. Marcelo has many of the positive aspects of Duende (smooth, holds speed well, mutes the road buzz really well), and couples those with the impressive rear end stiffness and rapid acceleration of the Moots.

While the bike clearly feels heavier than the Moots, it is so impressively stiff that it accelerates as quickly, with no wasted energy and wheels firmly gripping the pavement. It requires a bit more attention to hold a line sprinting than Duende, a bit less than Moots. Like the Duende I get a nice “Steamroller” effect where at high speeds I can roll along without loosing momentum. However, the Marcelo does beg for a little more pep than the Duende.

Marcelo has novatec hubs laced to Velocity a23 clinchers with 23c Vittoria clinchers at 100 psi.. Soon to be replaced with nemesis rims on record hubs with vittoria tubies at 95 psi.


What is each bicycle best for (for me):
Moots – hard training rides in the early AM or evening after rush hours. I use it in the dry because of the wheels.

Duende – Sunday rider, riding with the wife, when I am tired, errands, weekends when there is increased inexperienced traffic, when it is raining or on unfamiliar or rough routes.

Marcelo – training rides, when it may rain or ground is wet, rush hour (when there is traffic, but better educated cyclists in general)

What remains: I need to swap wheels around, see how the Marcelo with Lightweights compares to the Moots on the Nemesis for example – try to find that magic combination for me.

[cmg]

What remains: I need to swap wheels around, see how the Marcelo with Lightweights compares to the Moots on the Nemesis for example – try to find that magic combination for me.

that was going to be my suggestion. switch wheelsets, then compare. you know you could build another wheelset with Velocity areohead rims, 28 front and 32 rear that would work as the intermediate light rim wheelset. then use light tires and tubes. put some snap into the accelerations.

[thwart]

Yep, that's the way my Duende feels to me. Pretty much the ultimate steel bike, especially for a puny 150 pounder.

Makes it very difficult to pull a different bike for a ride... :banana:

[reggiebaseball]

I am migrating to all tubular. I prefer running tires at lower pressures, and have more confidence doing that with tubulars.

So, the Lightweights eventually will get clad with Veloflex Arenbergs I think,

Then I have Nemesis/record (1650grams+??) which will have Vittoria CXs

The A23/novatec combo on the MArcelo is impressively light at 1520 grams, but I am just not a clincher guy. I wonder if Velocity does not smooth out the inside of their rims... my set is brand new and has eaten 4 inner tubes in 30 miles, GRRRRR!

Probably next wheelset would be Shamal Tubulars (1430 grams), or MAvic R-sys SLR (1370 grams), both are as light as you can get without going to carbon rims. I am also constantly hunting for lightly used Campy Neutrons which I really want a set of.

[maxdog]

I also own a Vamoots sl (6/4) and a Marcelo among others. Love them both. Personally I would choose the ti for a rainy day (obvious reasons), but that's not an issue, since the Moots is my most regular ride. I would also add that I believe the most important factor is your mental state when riding. Enjoy those beauties.

[SBash]

reggie,

Wow! Awesome write-up with great reviews and comparisons. I hade a Duende a few years ago, now after reading this, I want it back.:help:

[wooly]

Reggie - I, too, really enjoyed the write up. And like the other, look forward to hearing how the wheel swap effects your impression of the bikes. Especially how the lightweights feel on the Duende - that will be interesting to hear!

I have a Sachs and am building up a Peg Responsorium. Have lightweights to swap between the two as well. It should be fun!

[54ny77]

that moots is beautiful.

[layneo59]

Very nice review. I think I've seen that Duende somewhere else. Can't go wrong with any of those bikes. All in the top 1% of the best bikes made today.

[dbh]

Duende – Sunday rider, riding with the wife, when I am tired, errands, weekends when there is increased inexperienced traffic, when it is raining or on unfamiliar or rough routes.
.

Wow, wish I had an errand-specific Peg kicking around.

[beeatnik]

Great write up. Your impressions of the Moots are almost in perfect alignment with mine. I still have a hard time articulating my experience of the performance characteristics of my Compact SL. I consider it perfectly stiff :eek: You're right; there's never a sense of power loss. Although, I do prefer to stay in the saddle on power climbs. Strava numbers show it to be faster for me than my CF bike on grades under 5%.

As for the Duende...damn. If CC ever carries Pegs again, you should write copy for them.

Short story long. I want a Duende.

[redir]

The Moots Vamoots is different than the Compact. I believe the Vamoots is butted and the Compact is straight gauge. It's interesting to hear you say that because with my Compact I feel the same way, always riding the rivet when things get going fast. I always thought that had to do with the aggressive geometry. Also I agree with the stiffness. I don't like stiff bikes. I have a few steel bikes that I actually prefer the most because they flex and soak up vibrations. The Moots is a good compromise between a cooked noodle and one out of the box.

[beeatnik]

I feel that way on my Moots. Nice road hum/buzz and pleasant vibrations through the contact points.

[TPetsch]

Interesting and well written read. Thanks for taking the time and sharing.

[wooly]

The Moots Vamoots is different than the Compact. I believe the Vamoots is butted and the Compact is straight gauge. It's interesting to hear you say that because with my Compact I feel the same way, always riding the rivet when things get going fast. I always thought that had to do with the aggressive geometry. Also I agree with the stiffness. I don't like stiff bikes. I have a few steel bikes that I actually prefer the most because they flex and soak up vibrations. The Moots is a good compromise between a cooked noodle and one out of the box.

Vamoots and Compact are made of straight gauge tubing. The "Compact SL" was made with a combination of 6/4 and 3/2.5 ti tubing as is the RSL. To my knowledge, Moots has not used butted tubing in their frames.

[BCS]

Vamoots and Compact are made of straight gauge tubing. The "Compact SL" was made with a combination of 6/4 and 3/2.5 ti tubing as is the RSL. To my knowledge, Moots has not used butted tubing in their frames.

The RSL is double-butted.

[roguedog]

This was great. Thanks for taking the time. Makes me want a Duende.

Would be great to hear more when you experiment more.

[T.J.]

that is an embarrassment of riches my friend:beer:

[rnhood]

Dario Pegoretti is just a very talented and intuitive builder. He knows things about bikes that probably won't be discovered for another several years.

Good reviews and all three of those bikes look very nice.

[happycampyer]

Nice reviews. From my own experience, when I'm comparing frames, I've found that it's important to use the same wheels and tires (among other components, such as saddles and handlebars, as you have done), otherwise it's hard to attribute sensations to the frame, the wheels or the combination of the two. My experience with Lightweights is that they have a sensation of acceleration and precision like no other wheels, so some of what you are sensing may be attributable to the wheels. Would definitely be interesting to hear your impression of the Pegs with the LW's. I agree with your thought about finding frame/wheel/tire combinations that you prefer—sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, so to speak.

The Moots Vamoots is different than the Compact. I believe the Vamoots is butted and the Compact is straight gauge. <snip>As others have clarified (but to clarify some of those clarifications), the Vamoots and the Compact used straight-gauge 3/2.5 ti, and shared the same geometry, other than top tube slope. They were succeeded in 2010 by the Vamoots and the Vamoots CR, respectively (but with variations in geometry, the Vamoots now being slightly less racy), which also use straight-gauge 3/2.5 ti. The Vamoots SL and Compact SL (not sure of date of introduction but produced through 2007 or so) used double-butted 6/4 ti in the main triangle, with 3/2.5 for chainstays and seatstays, and a solid 6/4 dropout/derailleur hanger (i.e., non-replaceble). The Vamoots RSL, also introduced in 2010, uses double-butted, oversized 3/2.5 ti in the main triangle, with 3/2.5 ti for chainstays, and 6/4 ti for seatstays and dropouts (but with replaceable derailleur hanger).

[oldpotatoe]

The Moots Vamoots is different than the Compact. I believe the Vamoots is butted and the Compact is straight gauge. It's interesting to hear you say that because with my Compact I feel the same way, always riding the rivet when things get going fast. I always thought that had to do with the aggressive geometry. Also I agree with the stiffness. I don't like stiff bikes. I have a few steel bikes that I actually prefer the most because they flex and soak up vibrations. The Moots is a good compromise between a cooked noodle and one out of the box.

Vamoots and CR(Compact Road) use thin walled, straight gauge tubing.

RSL is drawn, butted tubing to make the tubeset lighter(the only real reason to butt titanium), with 6/4 seat stays.

[Auk]

Good review, but will mirror what others have said about using the same wheels on each bike in order to accurately see/feel/hear the sensations of the bike on the road.

A rider in my club has a set of Gen 2 Lightweights and he mentions that the LW's tend to have a lack of inertia when letting of the gas in a paceline, whereas his DT 1.2 allow him to soft pedal a bit while in the middle of the same line. This may well account for the loss of momentum and the very quick acceleration that you're getting with the Moots and not with the other two.

[redir]

Oh ok thanks for clearing that up. I thought I heard they don't use the 6/4 anymore? If so I wonder why?

[oldpotatoe]

Oh ok thanks for clearing that up. I thought I heard they don't use the 6/4 anymore? If so I wonder why?

Reynolds stopped drawing bigger 6/4 tubes plus the ride difference vs the price made it not really worth it. They could achieve what they wanted with the 3/2.5 tubes they now source.

[CaliFly]

Spot-on regarding the Duende. I can't foresee ever selling mine!

[reggiebaseball]

Thanks for all the comments.
The new wheel rotation will be Lightweights with 24c Vittoria Paves (92psi) on the Marcelo,
Nemesis with 21c Vittoria Corsas (90psi) on the Moots,
Nemesis with 25c Veloflex Arenbergs (90psi) on the Duende.

I am much happier with the Nemesis tubular wheelset than with any of the wide clinchers sets I have tried, and will be picking up more as everyday and backup wheels for my bikes.

[climbgdh]

Great review!!!! :hello: I read with great interest since I just finishing building up a Duende a couple of weeks ago. Only have ridden it on 4 shortish rides for a total of 250k or so but MAN that is one awesome riding bike. Plus the Arrows paint scheme is wicked..... :). I'd now be interested to see how it rides with tubulars.

[reggiebaseball]

Did you get the 60cm Green Arrow Duende off of CL?
I tried for that one from BC, but never got emailed back.
I like that paint too.

[climbgdh]

Did you get the 60cm Green Arrow Duende off of CL?
I tried for that one from BC, but never got emailed back.
I like that paint too.

Yes... i bought that one off CL here in Vancouver. Gorgeous bike. The young guy (aspiring Cat 2 racer) was selling it because he couldn't bear the thought of eventually crashing it in a race. Frame is in like new condition. I can't believe how smooth it is on the road. Even compared to my Sachs...... the Duende just seems smoother.

Thanks for the nice review.

[KidWok]

Dayum...some nice rides you got there...My Merlin would have definitely been too small for you. I'll look for these beauties on the road!

Tai

[reggiebaseball]

Pairing the Marcelo with the Lightweights makes for the finest ride I have ever experienced. Absolutely perfect match of stunning acceleration, holding momentum at speed, smooth as glass over bad pavement, just perfect.
Also with a burgundy frame that sports white, blue, orange and yellow graphics, with a gold headset and chain, black components, silver hardware and cassette, who wouldn't logically pair red, gold and black wheels that sport green tires. I look like the Riddler just blew through a pre-school art class. Interestingly this bike is most popular with small children and with the most educated of bike snobs.

The Moots on Nemesis rims comes VERY close in terms of acceleration and smooth responsiveness, but the geometry differences really POP into sharp focus. For me, the Moots HTA is too steep at 74.25. At average speeds the handling is too twitchy up front - if I ride with one hand on the bars the bike jerks side to side from my pedaling. At high speeds and in descents no problem, but at the ambling speeds I frequent, not as nice as the Pegorettis. Perhaps if I were a bit younger or stronger, rode faster or more aggressive, the Moots would be ahead in this comparison for these same reasons. The Moots is most popular with "dudes" - I hear "nice Moots" all the time.

The Duende gets the most notice from women riders, I hear lots of "oooh sparkly," or "pretty bike" comments as I pass. It's metallic paint is really best viewed in the overcast, which it always is where I live.

If I could only own one set of wheels it would be Ambrosio Nemesis, they roll so smooth, and braking is lovely in bad conditions. I have zero complaints when riding on them, I do not find them deficient in any way, and aesthetically they rock. They are the only wheel other than LW that just look awesome and original sitting still.

As soon as I could get a second wheelset, it would be a set of Lightweights. They are the most transformative single piece of gear I have ever experienced in cycling. They make everything WAY better. For me, in the case of the Moots they made it "too much better" for me to ride confidently.

I would also like to remind everyone that while many of these components seems ridiculously pricey at retail that there is a vibrant secondary market for things that makes them affordable if you shop wisely and buy from good reliable people, often at a fraction of the original sticker price.

I would also like to give a little shout out to some things I use in my builds that are really awesome for me,
1. KMC chain, runs great and looks so awesome.
2. fizik cyrano post - has a huge lower clamp that lets me get a lot of setback without worrying about my rails bending.
3.Chain L No. 5- great lube
4.Boeshield T-9 - I like this stuff inside and out on my steel frames, makes cleaning a breeze
5. the Shimano Pro Vibe Round bend carbon bars are the best match to my Campy levers for me that I have found, rock solid too.

So, for the forseeable future:

1. Sunny day, best ride - Marcelo/LW/Paves 92psi.
2. Sunday ride, most comfortable and reliable - Duende/Nemesis/Arenberg 90psi.
3. Rainy days, winter ride, traveling bike - Moots/Nemesis/VittoriaCX 90psi.

Put another way,
I would f the marcelo, marry the duende, and kill the Moots.

[oldpotatoe]

Thanks for all the comments.
The new wheel rotation will be Lightweights with 24c Vittoria Paves (92psi) on the Marcelo,
Nemesis with 21c Vittoria Corsas (90psi) on the Moots,
Nemesis with 25c Veloflex Arenbergs (90psi) on the Duende.

I am much happier with the Nemesis tubular wheelset than with any of the wide clinchers sets I have tried, and will be picking up more as everyday and backup wheels for my bikes.

Why the extra 2 psi on the Paves???????

[reggiebaseball]

Why the extra 2 psi on the Paves???????

I am sorry Mr Potatoehead, but if I have to explain it you are just not ready for it ;)

On a more serious note, I say 92psi because I really do think pressure is very important, and I settled on 92/95 for the PAve Evo 24s on the LW rims after much experimentation.
That being said my pump has an analogue gauge so these are only guesses anyway.

One set of Nemesis I got have the tiniest tires I have ever seen (Vittoria 21c), they fit the rim fine but look like jr tires to me. However, they roll like buttah. I have no idea what pressure to run, so I started at 90psi. I am less worried about hurting the nemesis than LW rims, so I am inclined to push the psi lower.


I am not sure how tire width and psi relates (ie, do I need more, less or same pressure for a given tire volume as width increases). I would appreciate any advice.

I am shoeing a second set of nemesis next week with either Veloflex carbons, Arenberg, or pehaps FMB competition silks.

[oldpotatoe]

I am sorry Mr Potatoehead, but if I have to explain it you are just not ready for it ;)

On a more serious note, I say 92psi because I really do think pressure is very important, and I settled on 92/95 for the PAve Evo 24s on the LW rims after much experimentation.
That being said my pump has an analogue gauge so these are only guesses anyway.

One set of Nemesis I got have the tiniest tires I have ever seen (Vittoria 21c), they fit the rim fine but look like jr tires to me. However, they roll like buttah. I have no idea what pressure to run, so I started at 90psi. I am less worried about hurting the nemesis than LW rims, so I am inclined to push the psi lower.


I am not sure how tire width and psi relates (ie, do I need more, less or same pressure for a given tire volume as width increases). I would appreciate any advice.

I am shoeing a second set of nemesis next week with either Veloflex carbons, Arenberg, or pehaps FMB competition silks.

Use the silks but 93 psi....I hope you ride....a lot.

[reggiebaseball]

23c or 25c silks?

I ride about 3 hours per day at an appreciably slow rate, but the bikes get plenty of air and sun (or mist and shade, as the season permits).

[reggiebaseball]

As a follow up,

Moots

I added a 5mm taller lower crown race to the Chris King headset to correct for the Enve fork having a shorter axle to crown, and it has improved handling, it is more stable.

While the bike still rides "big" for me, I have discovered new zest for riding it on hard pack and gravel trail situations. The larger bike and longer chainstays feel good in those situations, it handles more like my Pegs do on the road.

I mostly ride it with Nemesis hoops on Record hubs, lately with 21c Vittoria tires because that is what the previous owner glued on and they are still not worn out, and because my tiny raceblade fenders actually work with 21c tires. They roll great.

Moots bike will get use in the rain, traveling, on mixed condition dirt and gravel rodes and in group riding situations.


Marcelo
Is my best bike, and rides like a demon with Lightweights. It rides like Dario intended, like a race bike, and I wouldn't grab it every day, but it fits like a glove and I love everything about it (except I get nervous about dinging the paint). I replaced my back tire with a Veloflex Carbon, and I think it rolls way better than with Vittoria (regular or Pave), I also like how supple the tires are and easy to stretch, and I like the old school extender system better than vittoria red ones.
Marcelo gets those rides on roads I know and love well, when I am riding alone for a few hours.

Duende

This bike I could grab every day and could be the only bike I own. It suits my age, abilities, and riding style better than Moots or Marcelo. The fit is not as perfect as Marcelo, but it rides so springy and smooth that handling is more forgiving of fit. I do want to try a 150mm stem on her, if I can ever find one available (though I could go custom).
I put Nemesis wheels on white industry hubs (28 hole in the front) with Veloflex Criteriums on this bike, and again I am very impressed with the Veloflex tires (already know the nemesis rims and white hubs are tops).

What's next?
Well, I still dream about whether a Respo is the perfect marriage of Marcelo and Duende.
I also think about how a custom Duende would ride with geometry to match Marcelo.
I also wonder what frame will make me pull the trigger and unload Moots...

[dekindy]

It is hard for me to conceive that the Duende would climb so much better than the Moots. Certainly something that I need if it is possible.

[reggiebaseball]

I don't think many people would say it does,
It is "flexy" er, which is not in vogue in this era of "ultimate BB30 carbon stiffness"

It works better for this middle aged, recreational cyclist.

[Lionel]

reggie, what's important here is that your bikes are my size..... If you get tired of the Marcelo let me know !

[soulspinner]

Amazing bikes. That Moots looks perfect...............and thanks again for the review on the Falz fork. Helped me decide.

[tuscanyswe]

Very nice review reggie.

I and i would guess most feel similar differences between bikes that we own but to put in a context like this and explain it in such a way that it portraits to the readers what you are feeling is not easy. Interesting and well done!

[eippo1]

These writeups are fun to read. Love to hear about the finer points of geometry, materials etc.

[fuzzalow]

Marcelo
Is my best bike, and rides like a demon with Lightweights.

Nice review. Good taste in bikes matched to the ability to discern the differences.

Yep there is something about Pegs that is just mystifying to me as to how good they can be and why that is so. My Marcelo is also among the 2 or 3 finest bikes I have owned. And I can't tell you why. And when faced with a quandary like that, I feel like there should be a list of things to be empirical about. Left brain. It should all add up.

And then there is the symphony that plays in the experience of rolling along an open road on a perfectly dialed in Marcelo that defies comparison. Right brain. A sum of subtleties. Sublime. And I can't tell you why.

[tv_vt]

Ditto what Lionel said above. They're my size, too.

So when that Duende is ready to leave the stable...

[bluesea]

What's next?
Well, I still dream about whether a Respo is the perfect marriage of Marcelo and Duende.
I also think about how a custom Duende would ride with geometry to match Marcelo.
I also wonder what frame will make me pull the trigger and unload Moots...


I love my Duende, but still wonder if I would be happy with a Moots.

[Joachim]

These reviews are great! I just added a Peg 8.30am to the stable myself.

[akelman]

These reviews are great! I just added a Peg 8.30am to the stable myself.

You did? What else is in the stable these days?

[Joachim]

You did? What else is in the stable these days?

Yes, looks brand new! Also a C50, great riding bike. And another surprise in a box :).

[akelman]

Yes, looks brand new! Also a C50, great riding bike. And another surprise in a box :).

You're my hero.

[SpokeValley]

Now I know why I spend so much time on this forum. There just isn't any other site I'd rather watch.

This is an absolutely facinating review and chain...

THANK YOU ALL for sharing your knowledge and wisdom and I only hope that one day I can be blessed enough to own three bad ass bikes like these!:)

[sparky33]

I'm basically convinced that I'm done with skinny tire road bikes.
Buuuuuuuttt the thought of a Duende still resonates quite nicely. I may have to leave the door open for that one.

[51mondays]

I'm basically convinced that I'm done with skinny tire road bikes.
Buuuuuuuttt the thought of a Duende still resonates quite nicely. I may have to leave the door open for that one.

Great reading. Thanks folks. +1 on the skinny tire issue....really enjoying my hip 32mm g bois.......suits my local roads. but definitely a nice steel bike is on the top of the list.

[thwart]

I'm basically convinced that I'm done with skinny tire road bikes.
Buuuuuuuttt the thought of a Duende still resonates quite nicely. I may have to leave the door open for that one.

Hed 23 mm wide rims and 25 mm (Mich PR3) tires fit easily on mine... and then you can do some unpaved back road work if you want...

[livingminimal]

Necroing a pretty old thread.

I have a Marcelo now, and GITA's inventory has been made known to some shops and I am trying to line up either a Duende or a second Marcelo. Does anyone have any updated information or anything additional to offer, especially as it pertains to use by a middle-age clydesdale?

thanks-

[martl]

I made a similar evolution of sorts when i sold my Vamoots frame for the new Marcelo in '15. I rode/ride the same set LW Standards in both. Both were/are in the 7+x kg/close to 8kg range.
I never really fell in love with the Moots, to be honest. It was a nice enough bike, of course, but it didn't make my heart sing the way the Pego does. Coming from typical early-2000 superlight alloy frames, i missed the springiness and superfast reaction. The Pego does a better job at that, a much better one.
This is my personal impression, and i'm sure there are riders for both of these type of bikes.

@reggiebaseball: you talk about the momentum-holding/lack of of the LWs. Do a test: Put the bike upside-down, spin up the rear wheel really fast. Then put a finger on the rubber to stop it to a standstill. The energy stored in the rotating wheel is now transferred as heat to your finger. It is tiny. Now, imagine that tiny bit of energy at work to keep an ~8kg-bike and a grown man's weight in motion - it is necessible :)

[Dino Suegiù]

Necroing a pretty old thread.

I have a Marcelo now, and GITA's inventory has been made known to some shops and I am trying to line up either a Duende or a second Marcelo. Does anyone have any updated information or anything additional to offer, especially as it pertains to use by a middle-age clydesdale?

thanks-

For new frames, I think the only way to know for sure in the USA is to ask GITA directly what their stock is, where they are sending them, or get in the line. Or see if a more local dealer (like BiKyle for Philadelphia, etc.; but they sell everywhere I think, and they are very good) can find out for you.

For used, of course one just has to look in the usual places everywhere.

[livingminimal]

For new frames, I think the only way to know for sure in the USA is to ask GITA directly what their stock is, where they are sending them, or get in the line. Or see if a more local dealer (like BiKyle for Philadelphia, etc.; but they sell everywhere I think, and they are very good) can find out for you.

For used, of course one just has to look in the usual places everywhere.

I have that all sorted, I am trying to decide if I want a Duende or a second Marcelo.

[sjbraun]

I put over 20k miles on a Marcelo, it was a great riding and great handling bike. Then I had Steve design a Strada Bianca for me, based on the same geometry as my Pegoretti. The SB was built by Max Kullaway (of 333fab.)

After a year or so of riding both bikes, I sold the Marcelo (to someone on the forum, of course.) The Hampsten had all the the ride characteristics of he Marcelo, quick to accelerate, stable on descents, and generally pleasing to ride. While the Hampsten did everything the Pegoretti did, it seemed to do those things just a bit better.

So as Pegs become harder to find, there are alternatives that can match or maybe even exceed Dario's rides.

[tv_vt]

Do a test: Put the bike upside-down, spin up the rear wheel really fast. Then put a finger on the rubber to stop it to a standstill. The energy stored in the rotating wheel is now transferred as heat to your finger. It is tiny. Now, imagine that tiny bit of energy at work to keep an ~8kg-bike and a grown man's weight in motion - it is necessible :)

Either I just learned a new word, or do you mean 'negligible'?

[tv_vt]

I put over 20k miles on a Marcelo, it was a great riding and great handling bike. Then I had Steve design a Strada Bianca for me, based on the same geometry as my Pegoretti. The SB was built by Max Kullaway (of 333fab.)

After a year or so of riding both bikes, I sold the Marcelo (to someone on the forum, of course.) The Hampsten had all the the ride characteristics of he Marcelo, quick to accelerate, stable on descents, and generally pleasing to ride. While the Hampsten did everything the Pegoretti did, it seemed to do those things just a bit better.

So as Pegs become harder to find, there are alternatives that can match or maybe even exceed Dario's rides.

This is worth repeating. I have two ti Hampstens that I love. Why on earth I'd need a steel one too is anybody's guess, but that would be a very fun project. To make it closer to a Pegoretti, maybe built with a Falz fork, too. :)

[OtayBW]

This is worth repeating. I have two ti Hampstens that I love. Why on earth I'd need a steel one too is anybody's guess, but that would be a very fun project. To make it closer to a Pegoretti, maybe built with a Falz fork, too. :)All different flavors and types. Why not hop on something with EL-OS tubing at ~0.4 mm and see something that's not at all like Ti (at least mine...).