USADA bans the first three... Warning, Lance Related Content

[bikerboy337]

Three of the six individuals recently charged by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency in connection with what the agency alleges was a widespread conspiracy dating from 1998 through 2010 have received lifetime bans.

USADA handed down the sanctions Tuesday to Dr. Luis Garcia del Moral, Dr. Michele Ferrari and Jose “Pepe” Martí for activities including possession of, trafficking of, and administration and/or attempted administration of “prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood transfusions and related equipment, testosterone, hGH, corticosteroids, and masking agents,” and “assisting, encouraging, aiding, abetting, covering up and other complicity involving one or more anti-doping rule violations and/or attempted anti-doping rule violations.”

The other three individuals accused by the agency — Lance Armstrong, Johan Bruyneel or Dr. Pedro Celaya — have requested arbitration or five-day extensions to respond the USADA’s charges.



“The objective of USADA’s investigation into the sport of cycling is to protect the rights of clean athletes by ridding sport of those in the system, whether coach, doctor, trainer, or manager who abuses their influence by encouraging, coercing or assisting athletes in cheating through the use of dangerous performance-enhancing drugs. When USADA has information about the existence of a sophisticated, far-reaching doping conspiracy, it is our duty under the established rules to conduct a thorough, fair investigation to uncover the truth,” said USADA CEO Travis Tygart.

“Permanently banning these individuals from sport is a powerful statement that protects the current and next generation of athletes from their influence, and preserves the integrity of future competition.”



The USADA press release outlined evidence against each of the three individuals receiving bans as follows:

“Dr. del Moral, of Valencia, Spain, was the team physician for the USPS Cycling Team from 1999 through 2003. Until recently Dr. del Moral was affiliated with a sports medicine clinic in Valencia, Spain. USADA’s evidence is that after 2003, Dr. del Moral assisted individual cyclists, including a number of former USPS team members, with their doping. The evidence in Dr. del Moral’s case demonstrated that from 2000 he was intimately involved in the prohibited method of blood transfusions which cyclists use to boost the number of circulating red blood cells to increase the oxygen-carrying capacity of the blood and increase endurance. Dr. del Moral brought riders to his sports medicine clinic in Valencia, Spain where he withdrew blood for prohibited blood transfusions. Dr. del Moral also assisted with saline infusions in order to keep the rider’s blood levels below threshold levels to avoid detection of their drug use. In addition to blood transfusions and saline infusions, Dr. del Moral administered banned performance- enhancing drugs including EPO, testosterone, corticosteroids and hGH to cyclists by providing these drugs to them, recommending the use of these drugs and directly injecting riders with these prohibited drugs.

“

Dr. Ferrari, of Ferrara, Italy was a consulting doctor to numerous USPS and Discovery Channel Cycling Team riders during the period from at least 1999 through 2006. Since the 1990s to the present, Dr. Ferrari has been a consultant to numerous cyclists and several cycling teams. Dr. Ferrari was brought to several USPS training camps, including in the United States, where USPS team riders worked with him. Dr. Ferrari developed a distinctive mixture of testosterone and olive oil to be administered under the tongue to assist in recovery during races and training. This mixture was known among team members as the “oil.” Dr. Ferrari also advised riders on the use of the banned oxygen enhancer erythropoietin (“EPO”) with detailed instructions regarding clearance times, how the EPO drug test worked and how to avoid detection of the drug. Dr. Ferrari specifically advised riders to inject EPO intravenously in order to avoid the drug showing up in a urine drug test. Dr. Ferrari was present and assisted during instances of prohibited blood doping and EPO use by USPS team members. Dr. Ferrari developed detailed training schedules for riders which included coded symbols designating when EPO should be used and the amount of the drug to inject. 



“Mr. Martí, also of Valencia, Spain, was a trainer for the USPS and Discovery Channel Cycling Teams during the period from 1999 through 2007 and thereafter worked for the Astana Cycling Team. Mr. Martí delivered performance-enhancing drugs, including EPO, testosterone, human growth hormone (hGH) and cortisone from Valencia, Spain to locations where the riders were living in Europe including Nice, France and Girona, Spain and at training camps and cycling races. Mr. Martí was also involved in assisting with injections of EPO, saline infusions for avoiding detection by drug testing and in transfusing blood to riders.”

It is unclear at this point whether Armstrong, Bruyneel and Celaya have requested arbitration or an extension.

“The other respondents in this case have either asked for and been granted a five-day extension to complete their response, or have requested to move forward with an arbitration hearing where all evidence will be presented, witness testimony will be given under oath, and an independent group of arbitrators will ultimately decide the outcome of the case,” read the statement. “USADA will continue to follow all of the established procedures that were approved by athletes, the U.S. Olympic Committee, and all Olympic sports organizations in compliance with federal law.”

Armstrong on Monday filed a lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Austin, Texas, requesting an injunction and restraining order against USADA. Judge Sam Sparks dismissed the suit hours later. Armstrong, Bruyneel and Celaya have until Saturday to respond to USADA’s charges. If they fail to do so, they will also be subject to sanctions.

:eek::eek:

[laupsi]

the wheels on the LA mobile are coming unhitched

[pablo pinchasso]

just started the walsh book on lance and Landis....only into the first 2 chapters or so and it makes me really wonder about what he did.....
Would recommend reading it.
I didn't think he did it and now am ? what went on...

[laupsi]

"From Lance to Landis" Great book and if it's all true yes the vile runs much deeper than Lance

[jr59]

double yawn.

don't these fools have anything better to do with our money?

[FlashUNC]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Ferrari already under some kind of ban in Italy? Don't see how this affects him much if that's the case.

[laupsi]

yea, they could "donate" to a political campaign :)

[bikerboy337]

USADA is not a government entity, however the agency is partly funded by a U.S. federal grant through the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP), with its remaining budget generated from contracts for anti-doping services with sport organizations, most notably the United States Olympic Committee"

in 2006, a whopping 8mil was provided by the Fed Government, the rest came from private sources and the USOC, so yes, there is some money... but the feds have provided the Money to the, USADA for this exact purpose... cant blame the USADA, blame congress if you want, but the USADA is doing what it is charged to do...


double yawn.

don't these fools have anything better to do with our money?

[cmg]

any reason why USADA waited so long to go after Armstrong? if they knew from 1999 through 2003 why not go after them then?

[Grant McLean]

any reason why USADA waited so long to go after Armstrong? if they knew from 1999 through 2003 why not go after them then?

Willingness of witness to testify, and the evolution of the testing procedures.

-g

[54ny77]

I'm gonna ask a dumb question, but what jurisdiction does USADA have to lifetime ban some dude in a foreign country who's pumping kids full of lordknowswhat drugs? Isn't that about as meaningful as a U.S. citizen getting banned from a bar in Cabo San Lucas?

[majorpat]

Grant has it, they needed witnesses willing to testify.

[laupsi]

any reason why USADA waited so long to go after Armstrong? if they knew from 1999 through 2003 why not go after them then?

the Feds spent all the money and did all the ground work

[christian]

I'm gonna ask a dumb question, but what jurisdiction does USADA have to lifetime ban some dude in a foreign country who's pumping kids full of lordknowswhat drugs? Isn't that about as meaningful as a U.S. citizen getting banned from a bar in Cabo San Lucas?WADA protocol calls for the national anti-doping agency with evidence to have jurisdiction. Whether it impacts Ferrari's operations is another matter.

[ultraman6970]

The best thing LA has to do is just do what he said what he was going to do before... do not care no more and do not fight no more...

"Do you want to ban me?? ok give me the ban forever... " and just close the crap forever. He is a millionare already, probably he will get even more money afterwards and even he might look better because is just not accepting the problem but might look like the other guys just got away with the thing. Case closed... done.

[Earl Gray]

All part of the master plan to clear Lance.

3 people that were already out of the sport take Life time bans without protest.

The other Dr. will go to arbitration and lose.

Johan is forced to miss this year's TDF and the remainder of the year's races, Lance misses Kona while they drag it out and ultimately have the USADA drop the charges against them.

The 4 "convictions" are enough for the USADA to declare some level of victory while Lance and Johan refuse to speak of it again.

[firerescuefin]

All part of the master plan to clear Lance.

3 people that were already out of the sport take Life time bans without protest.

The other Dr. will go to arbitration and lose.

Johan is forced to miss this year's TDF and the remainder of the year's races, Lance misses Kona while they drag it out and ultimately have the USADA drop the charges against them.

The 4 "convictions" are enough for the USADA to declare some level of victory while Lance and Johan refuse to speak of it again.


The "Teflon Don"...isn't going to make it magically go away this time.

He's done:)

Time for him to crack open another Mich Ultra and reminisce over the good times.

[Earl Gray]

The "Teflon Don"...isn't going to make it magically go away this time.

He's done:)

Time for him to crack open another Mich Ultra and reminisce over the good times.

It's all speculation for now and time well tell.

However, I would wager the Lance competes in USADA sanctioned(is that the right term) events in the reasonably near future.

[harryblack]

Excellent reply-- I'm deep sixed from bars up and down Treasure Island, Fla for indiscretion in my youth...

Seriously tho', how can anyone of any persuasion cheer not ** EVEN ** a trial in absentia but conviction AND sentencing?

That's just absurd.

Someone will say well you gotta take the low road to defeat the cycling drug underworld but come on, that's nonsense.

The selfless, noble and morally upright men of the USADA should SPEND some of that "private" money (I'd like to see from whom and how "private" it really is) and have a show trial, empty seats and everything.


I'm gonna ask a dumb question, but what jurisdiction does USADA have to lifetime ban some dude in a foreign country who's pumping kids full of lordknowswhat drugs? Isn't that about as meaningful as a U.S. citizen getting banned from a bar in Cabo San Lucas?

[majorpat]

Back when I was a junior, I was a decent rider (20+ years ago, not as much competition as today) and I thought that, if I took a certain path I might be able to "do something" in cycling. Fate had me choose a different road and here I am today, a content recreational rider. Looking back, I am glad that I didn't have to face the tough choices that lots of riders had to face.

Sadly, if my son showed talent, I would discourage him from cycling competitively above the local level.

Pat

[Tony T]

“Permanently banning these individuals from sport is a powerful statement that protects the current and next generation of athletes from their influence, and preserves the integrity of future competition.”



Sure, banning 3 who have not have had anything to do with the sport for the last 5 years sends a powerful message. :rolleyes:

The USADA is a joke, they need to get their "investigations" into the current century

.

[Tony T]

The "Teflon Don"...isn't going to make it magically go away this time.

He's done:)


This is at least the 6th time I heard this in the last 10 years ;)

.

[Fixed]

i seem to be the only that feels sad about this :eek:



cheers

[Tony T]

any reason why USADA waited so long to go after Armstrong? if they knew from 1999 through 2003 why not go after them then?

I think that the USADA only works the week before the TDF. ;)

.

[Tony T]

I'm gonna ask a dumb question, but what jurisdiction does USADA have to lifetime ban some dude in a foreign country who's pumping kids full of lordknowswhat drugs? Isn't that about as meaningful as a U.S. citizen getting banned from a bar in Cabo San Lucas?

He can no longer work with US teams (just ignore the fact that he hasn't in the last 5 years)

[majorpat]

i seem to be the only that feels sad about this :eek:



cheers

I, too, am sad about the cynicism, the tarnishing of glorious achievements, rejoicing in the tribulations of another and facing the fact that some choose to cheat. Realizing that others probably drive this decision because they want to exploit the heroic individual is also depressing.

Enough with all of this, just enjoy the ride.

Pat

[Frankwurst]

QUOTE=Tony T;1169398]Sure, banning 3 who have not have had anything to do with the sport for the last 5 years sends a powerful message. :rolleyes:

The USADA is a joke, they need to get their "investigations" into the current century

.[/QUOTE]

This is what I find amazing. They are F@@kin' around with athletes that are rapidly approaching the end of their careers. If you are out to make an impression on young athletes and let them know what the consequences of not playing by the rules are, shouldn't you be busting the young athletes for doing wrong and taking things away from them? If LA and all the others were quilty so be it and kudos to them for being able to pull it off. I say walk on.:beer:

[slidey]

I agree that the timing is a few years' off, to be generous...but be that as it may, better late than never.

I totally disagree with the logic that since you weren't caught "at the time", you're smart and should be allowed to go scot-free. Look at how we jump at each other's throats when some of us "suspect" the new riders...e.g, Peter Sagan.

There always seem to be voices who find it hard to come to terms with the fact that cycling is mired waist-deep in doping. Questions must be asked, athletes if found guilty must be banned/charged/stripped of glory...even posthumously if that's what it takes to clean it all up. No use saying that it's just too bad and leave it all unchecked either.

[eddief]

think of that packaged like Gu.

[bobswire]

My view, I posted this on another site.

USADA receives funds from the Government and so has to follow rules of due process. Arbitrarily convicting someone(s) because it follows a likely pattern such as they used against like the PED Doctors ,If used against LA without concrete evidence will give LA the right to sue, IMHO though I may be wrong.
Besides LA is not like other individuals and will go down swinging.
This is so unlike other cases where there was concrete evidence, Balco or self incrimination like Marion Jones.

This whole case is getting very interesting but I do give them credit for a least gong after the dealers instead of just the users but it still leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I'm old school liberal and due process means something to me, even for crooks and jerks.

[Rueda Tropical]

Sure, banning 3 who have not have had anything to do with the sport for the last 5 years sends a powerful message. :rolleyes:


.

5 years? Ferrari despite his ban is still very active advising pro cyclists according to the Italian police. Del Moral has a sports medicine business and still counts a lot of elite athletes as clients. The USADA covers more sports then just cycling. This is probably the most sophisticated doping network in the sports that come under WADA oversight and it's still very much active.

[Rueda Tropical]

He can no longer work with US teams (just ignore the fact that he hasn't in the last 5 years)

I believe the bans are worldwide for any athlete or sport operating under the WADA umbrella.

[zennmotion]

My view, I posted this on another site.

USADA receives funds from the Government and so has to follow rules of due process.


No. This business of calling USADA some kind of "quasi government agency" is bullsh#t, and references to constitutional rights (Fifth Amendment, Lance-- really????) and rights under civil/criminal procedures is bullsh#t as well. This is a sporting matter, not a legal one.

USADA is a 501c(3) that receives government grant funds like many other non-profit organizations, agencies and charities-nothing different or special about it. It's funded because some people in congress thought it was a good idea to support an organization that exists to prevent the prevalence of PEDs in sport. The only obligations USADA has to the the government is to use the funds as intended and agreed to by the Grant Agreement, which includes boilerplate language referring to granting agency policies and government regulations. If you want to swim in the gov. grant-supported community center pool and you get kicked out because the lifeguard thought you pissed in it, there is no federal policy you can appeal to- you're out for pissing in the pool. Faith-based organizations receive federal grants and have drug testing, no mandated "due process". Private schools get grants, same thing. Just because you get a government grant, doesn't mean your internal policies match the policies and guidelines of the court system. As part of pre-grant vetting, USADA's policies, basic financial records and governance were all reviewed and accepted as per OMB guidelines. That would include USADA's due process, which is transparent and agreed to by every organized US olympic sporting body. This is a sporting matter where USADA has jurisdiction, competitive cycling plays by their rules. The Lance camp's attempt to conflate "rights" and "due process" with criminal or civil court is either naive-- which is doubtful given the 3(!) legal firms representing-- or shows a desperate attempt to throw everything at the wall as they're cornered.
USADA's legal status via their audit report:
http://www.usada.org/ar-audit-report

[JohnHemlock]

5 years? Ferrari despite his ban is still very active advising pro cyclists according to the Italian police. Del Moral has a sports medicine business and still counts a lot of elite athletes as clients. The USADA covers more sports then just cycling. This is probably the most sophisticated doping network in the sports that come under WADA oversight and it's still very much active.

I think the point is that you can ban them all you want but it doesn't mean they will no longer work with cyclists, much in the same way the courts could take my drivers license but that doesn't stop me from driving my car.

No team could / would touch Ferrari with a 1000 foot pole prior to this and he still makes plenty of $$$.

[zennmotion]

I think the point is that you can ban them all you want but it doesn't mean they will no longer work with cyclists, much in the same way the courts could take my drivers license but that doesn't stop me from driving my car.

No team could / would touch Ferrari with a 1000 foot pole prior to this and he still makes plenty of $$$.

I don't know how it works with the medical establishment in the US or elsewhere, but it seems to me that providing and enabling PEDs for non-therapeutic purposes would/should be grounds for discipline under the medical governing boards. Whatever happened to the Hippocratic Oath? But then again, plastic surgeons sit on those boards...

[CunegoFan]

I don't know how it works with the medical establishment in the US or elsewhere, but it seems to me that providing and enabling PEDs for non-therapeutic purposes would/should be grounds for discipline under the medical governing boards. Whatever happened to the Hippocratic Oath? But then again, plastic surgeons sit on those boards...

Is Dr. Ferrari a medical doctor? I thought he had a PhD in haematology.

[bobswire]

No. This business of calling USADA some kind of "quasi government agency" is bullsh#t, and references to constitutional rights (Fifth Amendment, Lance-- really????) and rights under civil/criminal lawsuits is bullsh#t as well.

USADA is a 501c(3) that receives government grant funds like many other non-profit organizations, agencies and charities-nothing different or special about it. It's funded because some people in congress thought it was a good idea to support an organization that exists to prevent the prevalence of PEDs in sport. The only obligations USADA has to the the government is to use the funds as intended and agreed to by the Grant Agreement, which includes boilerplate language referring to granting agency policies and government regulations. If you want to swim in the gov. grant-supported community center pool and you get kicked out because the lifeguard thought you pissed in it, there is no federal policy you can appeal to- you're out for pissing in the pool. Faith-based organizations receive federal grants and have drug testing, no mandated "due process". Private schools get grants, same thing. Just because you get a government grant, doesn't mean your internal policies match the policies and guidelines of the court system. As part of pre-grant vetting, USADA's policies, basic financial records and governance were all reviewed and accepted as per OMB guidelines. That would include USADA's due process, which is transparent and agreed to by every organized US olympic sporting body. This is a sporting matter where USADA has jurisdiction, competitive cycling plays by their rules. The Lance camp's attempt to conflate "rights" and "due process" with criminal or civil court is either naive-- which is doubtful given the 3(!) legal firms representing-- or shows a desperate attempt to throw everything at the wall as they're cornered.
USADA's legal status via their audit report:
http://www.usada.org/ar-audit-report

It is not bull**** to me. Maybe due process and being arbitrarily dismissed is of no concern of yours but it is for me whether they be crooks or jerks.
I'm not arguing they are not within their supposed rights or PEDS weren't used, I'm just speculating that this case is unique and unprecedented.
If the same reasoning is used against LA to ban him for life and the loss of his yellow jerseys without concrete proof or being caught red handed we will not have heard the last of it as it winds its way to civil as well as the Supreme Court.

[zennmotion]

Is Dr. Ferrari a medical doctor? I thought he had a PhD in haematology.

I confess ignorance- I've always heard him referred to as a team doctor/consulting team doctor. If he has legal access to the drugs and license to prescribe/administer them there should be similar obligations and oversight, no? For me, Lance is a sock monkey, entertaining but harmless at this point, the damage done. But the rest of the establishment still is in place that's enabled and apparently continues to enable the poison. I hope USADA's efforts can roll away the rocks under which these guys live- the doctors, monied interests and puppet masters.

[Rueda Tropical]

I think the point is that you can ban them all you want but it doesn't mean they will no longer work with cyclists, much in the same way the courts could take my drivers license but that doesn't stop me from driving my car.

No team could / would touch Ferrari with a 1000 foot pole prior to this and he still makes plenty of $$$.


Looks like - thanks to the Fed investigation and the USADA - that the Italians are going after Ferrari with criminal charges. The USADA is the least of his worries. I doubt any cyclists will be calling any time soon. Del Moral is concerned that this might destroy his practice and has voice his concerns publicly.

In denouncing the USADA accusations as false, García del Moral expressed particular concern about their effect on his reputation and that of his athlete clients. Among other sports stars, he said in an interview that he had worked with Sara Errani, an Italian tennis player who on June 8 won the women's doubles title at the French Open and a day later played in the women's single final only to lose to Maria Sharapova.

[CunegoFan]

It is not bull**** to me. Maybe due process and being arbitrarily dismissed is of no concern of yours but it is for me whether they be crooks or jerks.
I'm not arguing they are not within their supposed rights or PEDS weren't used, I'm just speculating that this case is unique and unprecedented.
If the same reasoning is used against LA to ban him for life and the loss of his yellow jerseys without concrete proof or being caught red handed we will not have heard the last of it as it winds its way to civil as well as the Supreme Court.

He will have to go through the arbitration process before he can claim he was damaged by it. Once the evidence hits the general public, it's game over for Lance no matter what technicalities he might use to set aside a sporting sanction.

[rwsaunders]

Is Dr. Ferrari a medical doctor? I thought he had a PhD in haematology.


Apparently so...

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=programs.aboutMF

[bobswire]

I don't know how it works with the medical establishment in the US or elsewhere, but it seems to me that providing and enabling PEDs for non-therapeutic purposes would/should be grounds for discipline under the medical governing boards. Whatever happened to the Hippocratic Oath? But then again, plastic surgeons sit on those boards...

I guess they could use the Ricco method of self injection.

BTW PEDs are very therapeutic for the body for extreme exertions such as the TdF when monitored by a Doctor.

I'm not advocating,just playing devils advocate for the cynics.

[CunegoFan]

I confess ignorance- I've always heard him referred to as a team doctor/consulting team doctor. If he has legal access to the drugs and license to prescribe/administer them there should be similar obligations and oversight, no? For me, Lance is a sock monkey, entertaining but harmless at this point, the damage done. But the rest of the establishment still is in place that's enabled and apparently continues to enable the poison. I hope USADA's efforts can roll away the rocks under which these guys live- the doctors, monied interests and puppet masters.

Wikipedia calls him an italian physician. It gives no info about his education. His background is research. Since he made 30 million euros from doping, I don't think the pulling of a medical license would hurt too much.

Word on the Internet--and we all know that can be trusted--is that Ferrari is in deep criminal doo doo. The USADA action is minor compared to what he is facing in Italy.

[christian]

I'm just speculating that this case is unique and unprecedented.Um, Marion Jones, for one.

[CDM]

I know this a cycling forum but you people amaze me. I cannot summon up any interest in this whatsoever but you all have limitless appetites for this. I dont get it?

[djg21]

any reason why USADA waited so long to go after Armstrong? if they knew from 1999 through 2003 why not go after them then?

Doping technology always outpaces drug testing technology. This is precisely why Ferrari and his ilk could charge large fees to athetes for providing advice on how to avoid detection. Lance's problem is that samples of his blood from years long past have been retained and now can be tested with newly emerged testing techniques.

I think this is great. Consider the deterrent effect when athletes need to consider that they may get busted years after their competitive days are over!

Why Lance? Because he won the Tour seven times. Does anyone really care about the cyclist who doped to finish mid-pack?

[CunegoFan]

I know this a cycling forum but you people amaze me. I cannot summon up any interest in this whatsoever but you all have limitless appetites for this. I dont get it?

It is a fascinating story of an a-hole who rose to the top and was then undone by the same traits that made success possible. It is like a Greek tragedy. Aside from that, it's satisfying to see a jerk get his due and pro cycling will be better because of it.

A few years from now people will wonder how Armstrong could be so monumentally stupid as to screw over his former confidants like Landis.

[luno]

yeah, lance's days are numbered..

[jbrainin]

It is a fascinating story of an a-hole who rose to the top and was then undone by the same traits that made success possible. It is like a Greek tragedy. Aside from that, it's satisfying to see a jerk get his due and pro cycling will be better because of it.

All he had to do was stay retired and none of this would have happened.

[zennmotion]

I know this a cycling forum but you people amaze me. I cannot summon up any interest in this whatsoever but you all have limitless appetites for this. I dont get it?

I see your point, and sort of wish I could look away. For me it's not really about cycling any more at all- I've had almost no interest in the professional circus of competitive cycling in the past few years- I took 10 minutes today for the first time to see what's happened in the TDF, the whole game seems like a cycling version of the WWF. But it's a rare chance to see through the cracks in a rotten system- a metaphor for the financial meltdown caused by the rigged banks or some modern version of Boss Tweed. Schadenfreude isn't necessarily healthy but it's hard to resist. As Lance himself titled his self aggrandizing book- it's not about the bike. If you're disinterested, good on ya, you're a better person than me-

[Earl Gray]

....but it seems to me...

This one of those classic cases where no matter how badly you want it to, your opinion doesn't matter.

[Earl Gray]

It is a fascinating story of an a-hole who rose to the top and was then undone by the same traits that made success possible. It is like a Greek tragedy. Aside from that, it's satisfying to see a jerk get his due and pro cycling will be better because of it.

A few years from now people will wonder how Armstrong could be so monumentally stupid as to screw over his former confidants like Landis.

You seem pretty vested in this outcome.

Serious question:
Are you prepared to be disappointed? You seem as though you will be very bitter if he walks away unscathed.

I strongly suspect that LA used PEDs at some point and I really don't care either way. While I truly wish him well, if his whole empire crashes down it won't impact my life in any way shape of form.

[CunegoFan]

Serious question:
Are you prepared to be disappointed? You seem as though you will be very bitter if he walks away unscathed.


He has already been scathed. Every bit of truth that diffuses into the popular mind damages Armstrong. At some point--and it's not far off--he will become cycling's answer to Pete Rose. It won't matter if he finds a technicality to avoid a sanction. The drip drip drip of evidence is what will destroy him.

Quietly moving forward in the back ground is the qui tam case. It will be a fun two years.

Don't worry. With a bit of Photoshop work you can change the seven in your avatar to a zero.

[cfox]

Doping technology always outpaces drug testing technology. This is precisely why Ferrari and his ilk could charge large fees to athetes for providing advice on how to avoid detection. Lance's problem is that samples of his blood from years long past have been retained and now can be tested with newly emerged testing techniques.

I think this is great. Consider the deterrent effect when athletes need to consider that they may get busted years after their competitive days are over!

Why Lance? Because he won the Tour seven times. Does anyone really care about the cyclist who doped to finish mid-pack?
It's funny, Contador publicly stated multiple times that he'd volunteer to have his samples re-tested as any new future detection technology came out, including the plasticizer test (which I think has been shelved). It won't be long before a blood transfusion test is finally approved. I'm sure it won't happen, but I'd love to see the results.

[Germany_chris]

Doping technology always outpaces drug testing technology. This is precisely why Ferrari and his ilk could charge large fees to athetes for providing advice on how to avoid detection. Lance's problem is that samples of his blood from years long past have been retained and now can be tested with newly emerged testing techniques.

I think this is great. Consider the deterrent effect when athletes need to consider that they may get busted years after their competitive days are over!

Why Lance? Because he won the Tour seven times. Does anyone really care about the cyclist who doped to finish mid-pack?

We know that hammering people is defiantly a deterent I mean look at the death penalty it's stopped murder's and rapists in their tracks right. :rolleyes:

The three stikes rule has definatly hindered the flow of drugs into the country I mean there's no big time drug dealers left. There not a virtual civil war going on on our southern border contesting whose going to bring drugs into our country. :eek:

In all this drugs are evil we've empowered pharmaceuticals enough that they advertise on the TV telling you to ask your doctor about this miracle pill, all while getting fatter and and reversing the trend to live longer.

Yuppers the status quo is great, lets hammer lance cause he's a D**k head.

[Tony T]

I know this a cycling forum but you people amaze me. I cannot summon up any interest in this whatsoever but you all have limitless appetites for this. I dont get it?

...and still, you are here ;)

.

[zennmotion]

This one of those classic cases where no matter how badly you want it to, your opinion doesn't matter.

...

[Fixed]

This one of those classic cases where no matter how badly you want it to, your opinion doesn't matter.

none of our opinions matter the only thing that matters is how we live our lives
cheers

[indyrider]

This one of those classic cases where no matter how badly you want it to, your opinion doesn't matter.

And, yours as well...

[indyrider]

Anyone else find it interesting that the two loudest lance honks have been on here for just a few months time, defending his rapidly eroding reputation.

Strategically placed by his camp prior to this case? Makes me wonder...

[PQJ]

Anyone else find it interesting that the two loudest lance honks have been on here for just a few months time, defending his rapidly eroding reputation.

Strategically placed by his camp prior to this case? Makes me wonder...

At least one of them was here previously, in another guise (IMO).

[Earl Gray]

Anyone else find it interesting that the two loudest lance honks have been on here for just a few months time, defending his rapidly eroding reputation.

Strategically placed by his camp prior to this case? Makes me wonder...

You figured it out!

I work for the LA PR machine!

Very impressive investigative work. We should hire you as well.

PM me and I'll tell you aout the secret hand shake.

[Germany_chris]

Hi reputation hasn't eroded with me..

He still pops in to my Facebook feed and my twitter. When He does I still tell him to take these fools out.

[FlashUNC]

Um, Marion Jones, for one.

The parallels with Marion's case are continually surprising to me. She put up a vigorous defense, denied all of the circumstancial evidence presented in the BALCO case, trotted out the old "I've never test positive" defense.

Then totally cracked once the BALCO evidence came to light.

Its going to be an interesting case to watch.

[witcombusa]

Hi reputation hasn't eroded with me..

He still pops in to my Facebook feed and my twitter. When He does I still tell him to take these fools out.

I'm sure your support means the world to him...:rolleyes:

[Germany_chris]

I'm sure your support means the world to him...:rolleyes:

LOL..I'm sure it does :p

But you gotta pick sides

[William]

You figured it out!

I work for the LA PR machine!

Very impressive investigative work. We should hire you as well.

PM me and I'll tell you aout the secret hand shake.


You're not "in" if you're not one of the Jackson Street Boys. You've got to know the secret sign.

http://img.ibtimes.com/www/thumb/mainpage/281640-500356-lance-armstrong.jpg





William

[witcombusa]

LOL..I'm sure it does :p

But you gotta pick sides

you're playing for the wrong one...

[Tony T]

Anyone else find it interesting that the two loudest lance honks have been on here for just a few months time, defending his rapidly eroding reputation.

Strategically placed by his camp prior to this case? Makes me wonder...

I think (hope really) that you forgot the smiley.

.

[Germany_chris]

you're playing for the wrong one...

In my opinion I'm playing for the right one...The faster the USADA is proven to be farce the better off we'll be.

[witcombusa]

In my opinion I'm playing for the right one...The faster the USADA is proven to be farce the better off we'll be.

You may be... I can assure you I won't.

I'll be the guy throwing the party to celebrate his fall from grace :banana:

[ergott]

You're not "in" if you're not one of the Jackson Street Boys. You've got to know the secret sign.

http://img.ibtimes.com/www/thumb/mainpage/281640-500356-lance-armstrong.jpg





William

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BueULwM-Xio/TZ6vclsrD0I/AAAAAAAAAaA/NTGIYZlHrf0/s1600/vanburensign.png

[Germany_chris]

You may be... I can assure you I won't.

I'll be the guy throwing the party to celebrate his fall from grace :banana:

So that means the ipswich will have to be on me for the party :p

[verticaldoug]

The parallels with Marion's case are continually surprising to me. She put up a vigorous defense, denied all of the circumstancial evidence presented in the BALCO case, trotted out the old "I've never test positive" defense.

Then totally cracked once the BALCO evidence came to light.

Its going to be an interesting case to watch.

I think it is a bit different. For Marion Jone's she went down for again lying to the Federal Investigation and helping her boyfriend on a check forging scam. They had the paper trail from the Balco raid and she finally did confess but only because she wanted leniency on the sentencing for other crimes...

If lying is a crime, we have no one in Washington and no one on Wall Street.

[William]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BueULwM-Xio/TZ6vclsrD0I/AAAAAAAAAaA/NTGIYZlHrf0/s1600/vanburensign.png


Dude! That's a Van Buren Street Boys secret sign! There's gonna be a rumble in the jungle!!:banana:

I'll take Kamer over Lance in a street fight any day. Lance may be fit, but Kramer is crazy, unorthodox, and unpredictable.






;)
William

[JohnHemlock]

Anyone else find it interesting that the two loudest lance honks have been on here for just a few months time, defending his rapidly eroding reputation.

Strategically placed by his camp prior to this case? Makes me wonder...

I think you are right. I know Betsy Andreu overheard him telling people that the vacation homes and the hot girlfriend and the jet and the cars and the adulation of millions mean nothing if he loses the Paceline forum completely.

He will probably deny it, of course. Such a mastermind!

[54ny77]

Armstrong likes yellow. ;)

http://www.glamour.com/images/news/2006/07/10/Near_kristinarmstrong.jpg

http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2007/05/12/sheryl-crow_3821.jpg

http://counterfeitchic.com/Images/Tory_Burch.jpg

http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2006/celebdatabase/katehudson/kate_hudson1_300_400.jpg

http://fashionmunster.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/friendly_lovahs_ashley_olsen.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_VHUZr698VAI/TSDEJXjc4LI/AAAAAAAAA1Y/0QdyKgXWrrQ/s1600/danielle_overgaag-2-1-2006-59.jpg

[Earl Gray]

Armstrong likes yellow. ;)

http://www.glamour.com/images/news/2006/07/10/Near_kristinarmstrong.jpg

http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2007/05/12/sheryl-crow_3821.jpg

http://counterfeitchic.com/Images/Tory_Burch.jpg

http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2006/celebdatabase/katehudson/kate_hudson1_300_400.jpg

http://fashionmunster.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/friendly_lovahs_ashley_olsen.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_VHUZr698VAI/TSDEJXjc4LI/AAAAAAAAA1Y/0QdyKgXWrrQ/s1600/danielle_overgaag-2-1-2006-59.jpg

He has got good taste there!

[slowgoing]

I think you are right. I know Betsy Andreu overheard him telling people that the vacation homes and the hot girlfriend and the jet and the cars and the adulation of millions mean nothing if he loses the Paceline forum completely.

He will probably deny it, of course. Such a mastermind!

Since you brought Betsy up...

I bet she will be the last one laughing.

OK, maybe Floyd will if he gets his payday.

[Rada]

I'm sure your support means the world to him...:rolleyes:

Just as I'm sure how much you dispise LA makes him quiver.

[1centaur]

If lying is a crime, we have no one in Washington and no one on Wall Street.

Much of Wall Street is built around trust because so much of the business involves repeat transactions. Lying loses you business if not money and/or freedom much more quickly on Wall Street than on Main Street. Hundreds of thousands of workers and millions of transactions a day would not exist if lying were particularly common. Human nature is ubiquitous, but data transparency is much greater on Wall Street than in the regular world.

[bobswire]

Um, Marion Jones, for one.

LIEd to Federal authorities. Next, try again?

[witcombusa]

[QUOTE=54ny77;1169681]Armstrong likes yellow. ;)

QUOTE]


Actually he jut wants to date his mom....

[christian]

LIEd to Federal authorities. Next, try again?Please try to apply a little intellectual rigor here. We're talking about being sanctioned by WADA/USADA and being subsequently banned by the sanctioning body, not criminal sanctions for (any) other crimes.

Marion Jones was found guilty by WADA/USADA of using PEDs because of her own admission (a non-analytical positive). She never tested positive! Subsequently, she was banned for 2 years by the IAAF.

If the arbitration panel substantiates that USADA have produced enough evidence to demonstrate a non-analytical positive and that Armstrong should be sanctioned, the cases would be nearly identical.

Or at least close enough that the words "unique" or "unprecedented" don't seem to apply.

[Rada]

Much of Wall Street is built around trust because so much of the business involves repeat transactions. Lying loses you business if not money and/or freedom much more quickly on Wall Street than on Main Street. Hundreds of thousands of workers and millions of transactions a day would not exist if lying were particularly common. Human nature is ubiquitous, but data transparency is much greater on Wall Street than in the regular world.

Ha Ha. You actually beive that?

[Rueda Tropical]

Much of Wall Street is built around trust because so much of the business involves repeat transactions. Lying loses you business if not money and/or freedom much more quickly on Wall Street than on Main Street. Hundreds of thousands of workers and millions of transactions a day would not exist if lying were particularly common. Human nature is ubiquitous, but data transparency is much greater on Wall Street than in the regular world.

This could begin a seriously off topic tangent so I'll leave your statement be ---cough... LIBOR, Ratings, Shadow banking, caugh... caugh... ahem, sorry... had to clear my throat. But, really? That's funnier then I never failed 500 tests.

[StephenCL]

Anyone else find it interesting that the two loudest lance honks have been on here for just a few months time, defending his rapidly eroding reputation.

Strategically placed by his camp prior to this case? Makes me wonder...

Okay, let me have a stab then...I have been here for well over a decade with two different user names...

When one of my best friends, and fellow racer, was diagnosed with Testicular cancer in 2002, I reached out to Lance personally. I had met Lance several times over the years starting at the 1991 Nationals...and while he didn't remember me by name, he recalled some of our meetings. He promptly had sent a very large box including videos, posters and a hand signed jersey to my buddy.

Do I think he doped...yup! Do I think that there was anyone in the top ten of any tour from 1996_2006 that didnt dope? Nope.

I think his beef is that USADA knows full well that this is the case. This isnt a witch hunt because they think that Lance is guilty and everyone else is innocent. It's a witch hunt, because it is a personal vendetta of one, or a few, that want to see history books re-written with their names as the responsible parties.

It does nothing good for our sport except ellongate the chapter that was the EPO era.

Im not suggesting that Lance is a victim, just stating that the playing field he was on was already stacked, and USADA knows this to be the case.

With the good that Livestrong has done for Cancer research and its victims over the years, it is hard pill to swallow..not only because it taints the story, but because we always seem to crucify our heros.

Just my .02 cents.

Stephen

[bobswire]

Please try to apply a little intellectual rigor here. We're talking about being sanctioned by WADA/USADA and being subsequently banned by the sanctioning body, not criminal sanctions for (any) other crimes.

Marion Jones was found guilty by WADA/USADA of using PEDs because of her own admission (a non-analytical positive). She never tested positive! Subsequently, she was banned for 2 years by the IAAF.

If the arbitration panel substantiates that USADA have produced enough evidence to demonstrate a non-analytical positive and that Armstrong should be sanctioned, the cases would be nearly identical.

Or at least close enough that the words "unique" or "unprecedented" don't seem to apply.


Quote: "Please try to apply a little intellectual rigor here." What is it like acting in a way that betrays a feeling of patronizing superiority or are you just a fan of Jim Cramer? http://realmoney.thestreet.com/articles/10/27/2011/little-intellectual-rigor-please

Anyway as far as I know LA made no admission nor caught up thru the Balco fiasco.

I'm all for cleaning up the sport but this has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous in trying to get LA.

[Fixed]

He has got good taste there!

don't tell the mods deleted the hooter photo
cheers

[JohnHemlock]

Okay, let me have a stab then...I have been here for well over a decade with two different user names...

When one of my best friends, and fellow racer, was diagnosed with Testicular cancer in 2002, I reached out to Lance personally. I had met Lance several times over the years starting at the 1991 Nationals...and while he didn't remember me by name, he recalled some of our meetings. He promptly had sent a very large box including videos, posters and a hand signed jersey to my buddy.

Do I think he doped...yup! Do I think that there was anyone in the top ten of any tour from 1996_2006 that didnt dope? Nope.

I think his beef is that USADA knows full well that this is the case. This isnt a witch hunt because they think that Lance is guilty and everyone else is innocent. It's a witch hunt, because it is a personal vendetta of one, or a few, that want to see history books re-written with their names as the responsible parties.

It does nothing good for our sport except ellongate the chapter that was the EPO era.

Im not suggesting that Lance is a victim, just stating that the playing field he was on was already stacked, and USADA knows this to be the case.

With the good that Livestrong has done for Cancer research and its victims over the years, it is hard pill to swallow..not only because it taints the story, but because we always seem to crucify our heros.

Just my .02 cents.

Stephen

Hmm, you are asking us to accept nuance and complexity and to hold opposing thoughts in our minds simultaneously? We don't seem to be too good at that around here.

[Fixed]

Okay, let me have a stab then...I have been here for well over a decade with two different user names...

When one of my best friends, and fellow racer, was diagnosed with Testicular cancer in 2002, I reached out to Lance personally. I had met Lance several times over the years starting at the 1991 Nationals...and while he didn't remember me by name, he recalled some of our meetings. He promptly had sent a very large box including videos, posters and a hand signed jersey to my buddy.

Do I think he doped...yup! Do I think that there was anyone in the top ten of any tour from 1996_2006 that didnt dope? Nope.

I think his beef is that USADA knows full well that this is the case. This isnt a witch hunt because they think that Lance is guilty and everyone else is innocent. It's a witch hunt, because it is a personal vendetta of one, or a few, that want to see history books re-written with their names as the responsible parties.

It does nothing good for our sport except ellongate the chapter that was the EPO era.

Im not suggesting that Lance is a victim, just stating that the playing field he was on was already stacked, and USADA knows this to be the case.

With the good that Livestrong has done for Cancer research and its victims over the years, it is hard pill to swallow..not only because it taints the story, but because we always seem to crucify our heros.

Just my .02 cents.

Stephen
if he only helped one person survive then that means more than if he or a group of racers used drugs imho
cheers

[goonster]

Human nature is ubiquitous, but data transparency is much greater on Wall Street than in the regular world.
Yes, but:

1. Human nature (chiefly, hubris) is exaggerated on Wall Street, because the stakes are so high.
2. Data is not truth, and the former can be made to mask the latter. Financial folk are susceptible to self-delusion in this regard, because they are so far removed from where the data originate, imho.

[goonster]

if he only helped one person survive then that means more than if he or a group of racers used drugs imho
Means more to who?

One has nothing to do with the other.

[Rueda Tropical]

Do I think he doped...yup! Do I think that there was anyone in the top ten of any tour from 1996_2006 that didnt dope? Nope.

Im not suggesting that Lance is a victim, just stating that the playing field he was on was already stacked, and USADA knows this to be the case.

With the good that Livestrong has done for Cancer research and its victims over the years, it is hard pill to swallow..not only because it taints the story, but because we always seem to crucify our heros.

Just my .02 cents.

Stephen

Why should any of that even enter in to consideration? Everyone was doing it or corruption is rampant are not reasons not to pursue an anti-doping, anti-corruption case. The opposite actually is true. It proves the need. Lance is certainly not being singled out for special treatment. Unless you are talking about everyone else who stood on a podium getting busted while he got a free pass from the UCI.

Lance was offered the same opportunity to cooperate as all his team mates. Whose fault is it that he is the only one who declined?

Does the special pass we are supposed to give to Armstrong extend to Dr. Ferrari, Dr. del Moral and Bruyneel as well? As long as it was Armstrong you helped dope no problem.

[Fixed]

Means more to who?

One has nothing to do with the other.

obviously to humanity it does
mr. Goonster
cheers

[Earl Gray]

this thread is all about hate


Hate is a very strong word. I think it is more about envy, jealousy and selfishness.

[Fixed]

Hate is a very strong word. I think it is more about envy, jealousy and selfishness.

you are right
cheers

[christian]

Quote: "Please try to apply a little intellectual rigor here." What is it like acting in a way that betrays a feeling of patronizing superiority or are you just a fan of Jim Cramer? http://realmoney.thestreet.com/articles/10/27/2011/little-intellectual-rigor-please

Anyway as far as I know LA made no admission nor caught up thru the Balco fiasco.

I'm all for cleaning up the sport but this has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous in trying to get LA.Yeah, you're probably right. The fact that both doping cases are about non-analytical positives about athletes who never tested positive don't mean that they're at all similar. They're probably both unique in the same way.

[Germany_chris]

This thread is about Mr. Armstrong's affront to peoples morals.

The issue is that folks believe that we all share the same core beliefs. When someone contradicts those the immediate reaction is to jump up on their horse and make proclamations. Much like what happens on pulpits across America every Sunday, judgements based on personal beliefs imposed.

[goonster]

This thread is about Mr. Armstrong's affront to peoples morals.
Baloney.

It is solely about whether Lance broke the rules he agreed to.

"This is not 'Nam . . ."

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/12/121572/2232436-big-l.jpg

[slidey]

Bang on! (pun intended)

It's only about right or wrong...that's all there is to it.

It's fine picking sides now that the case is still under trial, but I hope once the verdict is reached we all stand by it and not keep on saying it's sad, it shouldn't have been this way, etc.

Baloney.

It is solely about whether Lance broke the rules he agreed to.

"This is not 'Nam . . ."

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/12/121572/2232436-big-l.jpg

[PQJ]

No, this thread is about cheating in sports. All cheats should be held accountable. The bigger the takedown, however, the greater the potential impact. And "our" sport could not be any more rotten than it is, sadly.

We're at a point where Froome rides a great TT, and everyone suspects dope. Wiggins rides a great TT, out TT'ing pure TT'ers, and everyone suspects dope. Voeckler rode spectacularly last year, the French are now investigating Europcar, and guess what, everyone suspects dope. Not fair to Froome or Wiggins or Voeckler, if they're clean, but really, what choice do we have?

Wiggins' response to the doping question was one of hate and incredulity ('twas Lance-like, in fact). He sounded guilty to me. A better response would have been something like: "Yup, with all that's happened, over the past 16 years, dope-wise, I totally understand how you and lots of fans are skeptical. However, I know I'm clean and I'll piss in a cup and give you blood and some spit and a pubic hair right now if you so desire to test it."

Yes, I'd like to see the entire system crash and burn. And then hopefully be rebuilt better. Taking down the "greatest" Tour champion* and possibly the world's preeminent doper would be a good start.

The suggestion that USADA has a vendetta against Lance is silly, imo.


* I'll leave the debate about Armstrong's singular devotion to the Tour at the expense of most everything else, versus, for example, Merckx's actually racing the entire season, for another thread.

[Germany_chris]

Baloney.

It is solely about whether Lance broke the rules he agreed to.

"This is not 'Nam . . ."

BS if it was there are many other active rule breakers to pursue. This is about Lance and Lance period.

Arnold Schwarzenegger admitted to steroid use during his body building and acting career..He agreed not to use them go after him..http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-250_162-676684.html

There are quite a few NFL players on Juice go after them.

This investigation is about Lance and Lance only.

[Germany_chris]

No, this thread is about cheating in sports. All cheats should be held accountable. The bigger the takedown, however, the greater the potential impact. And "our" sport could not be any more rotten than it is, sadly.

We're at a point where Froome rides a great TT, and everyone suspects dope. Wiggins rides a great TT, out TT'ing pure TT'ers, and everyone suspects dope. Voeckler rode spectacularly last year, the French are now investigating Europcar, and guess what, everyone suspects dope. Not fair to Froome or Wiggins or Voeckler, if they're clean, but really, what choice do we have?

Wiggins' response to the doping question was one of hate and incredulity ('twas Lance-like, in fact). He sounded guilty to me. A better response would have been something like: "Yup, with all that's happened, over the past 16 years, dope-wise, I totally understand how you and lots of fans are skeptical. However, I know I'm clean and I'll piss in a cup and give you blood and some spit and a pubic hair right now if you so desire to test it."

Yes, I'd like to see the entire system crash and burn. And then hopefully be rebuilt better. Taking down the "greatest" Tour champion* and possibly the world's preeminent doper would be a good start.

The suggestion that USADA has a vendetta against Lance is silly, imo.


* I'll leave the debate about Armstrong's singular devotion to the Tour at the expense of most everything else, versus, for example, Merckx's actually racing the entire season, for another thread.

He's trying to win a bike race not sound credible..credibility is the yellow jersey and the win.

[christian]

Wiggins' response to the doping question was one of hate and incredulity ('twas Lance-like, in fact). He sounded guilty to me. A better response would have been something like: "Yup, with all that's happened, over the past 16 years, dope-wise, I totally understand how you and lots of fans are skeptical. However, I know I'm clean and I'll piss in a cup and give you blood and some spit and a pubic hair right now if you so desire to test it."
I don't know that I would go so far as to say that he "sounded guilty," but I agree that your proposed answer would have been 1000% better.

[witcombusa]

if he only helped one person survive then that means more than if he or a group of racers used drugs imho
cheers


This logic is lost on me

One has nothing to do with the other alrhough I do see a lot of people giving him a "I don't care what else he did".

You do know there are many other cancer orgs. out there. And many of them have a higher % that actually goes towards that end than "his" foundation. To hear some talk they think he is single handedly doing it all himself. That's a joke.

[e-RICHIE]

There are quite a few NFL players on Juice go after them.

This investigation is about Lance and Lance only.

Just adding that he's under the microscope because he was a team owner and
the systematic doping etc and all that came with it falls at his feet too atmo.
No NFL or MLB players I am aware of also paid the salaries of their team mates.

ps

arrange disorder

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
:cool::cool::cool:
:cool::cool:;)

[PQJ]

He's trying to win a bike race not sound credible..credibility is the yellow jersey and the win.

Who said anything about credibility? If you're guilty of something, and are asked a question about it, there's 2 ways to respond - one that tends to suggest guilt, and one that tends to suggest innocence. All I'm saying is that, to me, he chose the former. I'd like to believe Wiggins is clean, but it is real hard to do. The doping has - finally, for me - affected my enjoyment of this race and this cycling season generally. My enjoyment of watching professional cycling has also waned in recent years, because it appears to be such a farce.

[William]

BS if it was there are many other active rule breakers to pursue. This is about Lance and Lance period.

Did they not go at all the un-named riders as well? Who in turn, turned in the bigger fish? Was Lance just another doper, or was he also a major enabler in the doping of others as has been hinted? If he's just another doper, your line of thought has merit. If he was also a major enabler, then they're just working up the food chain.






William

[Germany_chris]

Who said anything about credibility? If you're guilty of something, and are asked a question about it, there's 2 ways to respond - one that tends to suggest guilt, and one that tends to suggest innocence. All I'm saying is that, to me, he chose the former. I'd like to believe Wiggins is clean, but it is real hard to do. The doping has - finally, for me - affected my enjoyment of this race and this cycling season generally. My enjoyment of watching professional cycling has also waned in recent years, because it appears to be such a farce.

Your right I took your statement to mean that his corse all most F*** off response didn't sound credible to you. So I'll take it that you believe him then because if you didn't his response wouldn't be credible..

Again he's not trying to win your heart and mind, he's trying to win a bike race if your heat and mind follow wonderful if they don't he obviously doesn't care. Competition is not about making friends is about wining that is the end state what right looks like.

[Germany_chris]

Did they not go at all the un-named riders as well? Who in turn, turned in the bigger fish? Was Lance just another doper, or was he also a major enabler in the doping of others as has been hinted? If he's just another doper, your line of thought has merit. If he was also a major enabler, then they're just working up the food chain.






William

and Arnold is a former governor and the standard which all body builders are judged. He's not directly enabling his enablement is implied.

[Germany_chris]

Just adding that he's under the microscope because he was a team owner and
the systematic doping etc and all that came with it falls at his feet too atmo.
No NFL or MLB players I am aware of also paid the salaries of their team mates.

ps

arrange disorder

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
:cool::cool::cool:
:cool::cool:;)

The alleged doping (his) you mean. He is under the microscope because he won, is American, and a true d**k head.

He has walked on and beaten people to become a nation institution and folks take offense to it.

[zennmotion]

Do I think he doped...yup! Do I think that there was anyone in the top ten of any tour from 1996_2006 that didnt dope? Nope...

I think his beef is that USADA knows full well that this is the case.
It does nothing good for our sport except ellongate the chapter that IS the EPO era.

Im not suggesting that Lance is a victim, just stating that the playing field IS stacked, and USADA knows this to be the case.
Stephen

Fixed it. We're still in the 'EPO era' with many of the same faces behind the scenes enabling, pulling the strings, reaping the profits. The information gleaned from the process will further uncover these guys, and maybe find a few more lever-pullers along the way. The point isn't the riders looking over their shoulders at their glory years, it's about business. And Lance was and continues to be a business man involved in the charade of pro cycling. And that's why it's important.

[William]

and Arnold is a former governor and the standard which all body builders are judged. He's not directly enabling his enablement is implied.


Was Arnold just a doper, and/or directly involved in getting other Body builders the goods and encouragement/directive? What money did he use to do it? At that particular time, was there a governing body for body building at the time? Was doping directly cited in the contracts as a disqualifying factor at that time? There are a lot of things to consider before you go calling out Ah-nold.






William

[e-RICHIE]

The alleged doping (his) you mean. He is under the microscope because he won, is American, and a true d**k head.

He has walked on and beaten people to become a nation institution and folks take offense to it.

I am pretty sure the team that he owned has a long list of folks who tested positive (assuming
that is the hoop one needs to jump through to say there was systematic doping in place).

ps

arrange disorder

:cool::rolleyes:;)
:rolleyes::rolleyes::)
:cool:;):)

[PQJ]

Your right I took your statement to mean that his corse all most F*** off response didn't sound credible to you. So I'll take it that you believe him then because if you didn't his response wouldn't be credible..

Again he's not trying to win your heart and mind, he's trying to win a bike race if your heat and mind follow wonderful if they don't he obviously doesn't care. Competition is not about making friends is about wining that is the end state what right looks like.

Sorry, but that made no sense to me. I don't care at all about Wiggo, one way or another, but his response had nothing to do with credibility or lack thereof. He didn't exactly answer the essence of the question, now did he:

From cyclingnews.com:

Reporter: "What do you say to the cynics who think that you have to be doped up to win the Tour de France?"

Wiggins : "They are just f***ing w*****s. I cannot be doing with people like that. It justifies their own bone-idleness because they can’t ever imagine applying themselves to anything in their lives. It’s easy for them to sit under a pseudonym on Twitter rather than get off their arses in their own life and apply themselves and work hard at something and achieve something, and that’s ultimately it. C***s!"

Response if Wiggins wasn't himself a f***ing w****r c**t: "I understand the cynicism but I know I'm clean and have worked very hard to get here. Thank you and next question."

[Germany_chris]

Was Arnold just a doper, and/or directly involved in getting other Body builders the goods and encouragement/directive? What money did he use to do it? At that particular time, was there a governing body for body building at the time? Was doping directly cited in the contracts as a disqualifying factor at that time? There are a lot of things to consider before you go calling out Ah-nold.






William

At that time yes he was, and his legacy still causes it. Steroids were legal at that time. Most of the drugs that cyclists take are also legal, just not allowed.

The differences come in the last part..BB has never been much regulated it's truly so niche that it still really isn't.

USADA though isn't concerned with the contracts that was the investigation prior to this that concerned itself with the money and contracts the one that turned to nothing after 90 investigators investing for a couple years.

On the other and far more important side Caps? yes or no? do I need to fire up PS and get one designed?

[Germany_chris]

Sorry, but that made no sense to me. I don't care at all about Wiggo, one way or another, but his response had nothing to do with credibility or lack thereof. He didn't exactly answer the essence of the question, now did he:

From cyclingnews.com:

Reporter: "What do you say to the cynics who think that you have to be doped up to win the Tour de France?"

Wiggins : "They are just f***ing w*****s. I cannot be doing with people like that. It justifies their own bone-idleness because they can’t ever imagine applying themselves to anything in their lives. It’s easy for them to sit under a pseudonym on Twitter rather than get off their arses in their own life and apply themselves and work hard at something and achieve something, and that’s ultimately it. C***s!"

Response if Wiggins wasn't himself a f***ing w****r c**t: "I understand the cynicism but I know I'm clean and have worked very hard to get here. Thank you and next question."

I understood the answer and yes he did answer the question directly.

[JohnHemlock]

I don't know that I would go so far as to say that he "sounded guilty," but I agree that your proposed answer would have been 1000% better.

Hmm, sometimes a cigar is merely a cigar. In the case of Wiggo, he sounded like a guy who had turned himself inside out, in Sherwen-speak, and then had some media doosh ask him a stupid question. Why do we expect these guys to be gladiators on a bike and then get all Marquis of Queensbury at the microphone?

[Germany_chris]

I am pretty sure the team that he owned has a long list of folks who tested positive (assuming
that is the hoop one needs to jump through to say there was systematic doping in place).

ps

arrange disorder

:cool::rolleyes:;)
:rolleyes::rolleyes::)
:cool:;):)

That is the hoop..

My statement to that is a vast majority of the peleton was doping at that time. Does there need to be team sponsored sanctioning of doping for the athletes to dope? The answer is no..

[54ny77]

"duuuuuude, check out my lats. they're huuuuuge, yah!"

http://media-saver.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/17b860aad-teacher-4.jpg?w=500&h=423

[bobswire]

Analysis of Armstrong's case, simply put.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Features/Analysis_of_Armstrong_s_Case_2913.html

And it continues.
http://news.yahoo.com/usada-grants-armstrong-30-day-extension-175256573--spt.html

[Germany_chris]

Hmm, sometimes a cigar is merely a cigar. In the case of Wiggo, he sounded like a guy who had turned himself inside out, in Sherwen-speak, and then had some media doosh ask him a stupid question. Why do we expect these guys to be gladiators on a bike and then get all Marquis of Queensbury at the microphone?

Not a John..

You guys don't remember Michael Jordans interviews do you? It was most prevalent during his divorce the man just didn't answer questions the were about the just played game, he walk away, imparted his scorn, and had to be restrained once if I remember correctly. Asking Wiggins about drugs or the current state of cycling is the same thing. You should expect some scorn.

[Fixed]

maybe in his mind he make it a little safer for the riders to use the drugs with out having heart attacks in their sleep like some young dutch riders did , when they self doctored .
there is no one i respect more than e richie ..i will never post on lance again
cheers

[PQJ]

Hmm, sometimes a cigar is merely a cigar. In the case of Wiggo, he sounded like a guy who had turned himself inside out, in Sherwen-speak, and then had some media doosh ask him a stupid question. Why do we expect these guys to be gladiators on a bike and then get all Marquis of Queensbury at the microphone?

The media "doosh" was just doing his job. How is asking a question about cynicism in cycling as a result of doping stupid? The athletes themselves are the reason for the "stupidity."

[PQJ]

Not a John..

You guys don't remember Michael Jordans interviews do you? It was most prevalent during his divorce the man just didn't answer questions the were about the just played game, he walk away, imparted his scorn, and had to be restrained once if I remember correctly. Asking Wiggins about drugs or the current state of cycling is the same thing. You should expect some scorn.

That's plain silly. Asking a professional cyclist who is leading the sport's pre-eminent stage race about drugs in cycling and the state of the sport in light of the myriad doping cases of recent vintage (including one not 24 hours prior) should result in scorn from said cyclist? It's a little different than asking the f****r whose c**t he thinks about when he w***s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ultraman6970]

If the court says yes to armstrong, then what are the implications for the USDA??? that is not a valid entity at all??

I was thinking in what the UCI guy was saying yesterday... so the USDA banned from the sport to doctors that arent even autorized to work with the uci?? that makes no sense... like banning me from cycling when Im not even racing and I dont even have a valid licence for racing :D

[rwsaunders]

Analysis of Armstrong's case, simply put.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Features/Analysis_of_Armstrong_s_Case_2913.html

And it continues.
http://news.yahoo.com/usada-grants-armstrong-30-day-extension-175256573--spt.html

Thanks for posting...the Slowtwitch article being written from a sports attorney's perspective, is quite interesting. I wonder if the fact that a 30 day extension was extended by USADA, indicates that it's deal cutting time?

[Germany_chris]

That's plain silly. Asking a professional cyclist who is leading the sport's pre-eminent stage race about drugs in cycling and the state of the sport in light of the myriad doping cases of recent vintage (including one not 24 hours prior) should result in scorn from said cyclist? It's a little different than asking the f****r whose c**t he thinks about when he w***s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not really..

You really wouldn't have like my answer to the question..

Lets make a valid comparison:

I was in Afghanistan in 2002 during Operation Anaconda. A reported from GQ (nice old gent) asked me what it was like to kill people. That question is as irrelevant to the progress of the war as asking Wiggins his opinion on doping. I broke the reporters nose and knocked out two of his teeth. Wiggins responded that he doesn't hang out with P*ssies so he doesn't know what s the question again?

[witcombusa]

Not really..

You really wouldn't have like my answer to the question..

Lets make a valid comparison:

I was in Afghanistan in 2002 during Operation Anaconda. A reported from GQ (nice old gent) asked me what it was like to kill people. That question is as irrelevant to the progress of the war as asking Wiggins his opinion on doping. I broke the reporters nose and knocked out two of his teeth. Wiggins responded that he doesn't hang out with P*ssies so he doesn't know what s the question again?

"Patriots always talk of dying for their country and never of killing for their country."

I like both of the questions personally...
(you should have been arrested for assult..)

[Germany_chris]

"Patriots always talk of dying for their country and never of killing for their country."

I like both of the questions personally...
(you should have been arrested for assult..)

If it had been 2006 not 2002 I would have been. Neither question is relevant to the subject at hand…

[PQJ]

Not really..

You really wouldn't have like my answer to the question..

Lets make a valid comparison:

I was in Afghanistan in 2002 during Operation Anaconda. A reported from GQ (nice old gent) asked me what it was like to kill people. That question is as irrelevant to the progress of the war as asking Wiggins his opinion on doping. I broke the reporters nose and knocked out two of his teeth. Wiggins responded that he doesn't hang out with P*ssies so he doesn't know what s the question again?

I respect your service, do not have the full context of your exchange with him, and war is hell, so will not pass judgment on your treatment of the reporter. With that said, it's not even a remotely valid comparison. Professional cyclists, as a group, need to win back our respect, not the other way around. If they don't want to deal with the media, they should pull a Kloden (which I have no problem with, btw). But if they show up for a presser, they should be prepared to answer questions that are 100000000% germane to their sport, and to do so with a modicum of dignity and respect.

[Germany_chris]

I respect your service, do not have the full context of your exchange with him, and war is hell, so will not pass judgment on your treatment of the reporter. With that said, it's not even a remotely valid comparison. Professional cyclists, as a group, need to win back our respect, not the other way around. If they don't want to deal with the media, they should pull a Kloden (which I have no problem with, btw). But if they show up for a presser, they should be prepared to answer questions that are 100000000% germane to their sport, and to do so with a modicum of dignity and respect.

Thank you for the kind comments but there are many others who deserve much respect than I do mainly those who preceded me (oldpotato) and the guys that followed. I've spent the last 7 years or so of my life insuring that those that go off and do the hard right are shown proper respect when leaving, and returning. Like my old man before me folks never knew I left nor that I came back. That will never happen to a service member as long as I work for Uncle Sam..I cry and rant at their funerals and marvel at an 18 year old kids ability to overcome and remain a whole person (a skill I have yet to learn) I marvel every day at 10th group and NSWU's 2 and 10's ability to just drive one no matter. There was a time I could do the same thing but not anymore the cynic in me has overcome any pride that I had. Though as long as my people go and come back taken care of I'll sleep better, hopefully partially forgive my injury and early exit. I would honestly do my job whether they paid me or not I feel I owe something to the kids who do the right thing regardless of socioeconomic status.

I thought cyclists needed to win bike races, not win hearts and minds.

[Earl Gray]

All this talk about Lance being the owner and participating in a vast doping conspiracy is going to be the exact thing that allows him to walk away from this.

I'm sure they have testimony that can showed he doped. However, they are trying to show that he was the enabler.

I don't think they will have that.

All the american media will report is that the USADA has dropped the case against Lance and all will be right in the world again.

Vive la Lance!

[jimcav]

I respect your service, do not have the full context of your exchange with him, and war is hell, so will not pass judgment on your treatment of the reporter. With that said, it's not even a remotely valid comparison. Professional cyclists, as a group, need to win back our respect, not the other way around. If they don't want to deal with the media, they should pull a Kloden (which I have no problem with, btw). But if they show up for a presser, they should be prepared to answer questions that are 100000000% germane to their sport, and to do so with a modicum of dignity and respect.

if a true story and he was in uniform, that violates UCMJ. whether or not the "law" gets enforced is a problem for all sorts of organizations--doping, serving alcohol in bars, sexual assault in the military, etc etc
Stories I've heard from guys there in 2002-3 are like the wild west. punching someone who asked an obnoxious question (but of course perhaps a question that most readers will never face and are truly curious about) would be so far down on the list...
a little off-topic except for the "in context" aspect. I think if you are a professional cyclist, you'd have to be an idiot to not expect doping related questions given the current media reporting on USADA v Lance. I don't really have any issue with how Wiggins respnded. But, since the rider represents the team/sponsor/sport etc, they do have to consider how they come across. My opinion only, maybe there is no conduct clause in pro cyclist's contracts?

[CunegoFan]

500 tests? Actually Armstrong's legal complaint has upped the number to 600.

This is the maximum number. It is a work in progress because many race wins where there was no testing are still counted as a test.

http://www.cyclismas.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/lancetestingsmall.png

http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/07/the-legend-of-the-500/

[harryblack]

Exactly, and if not exact then one HUGE factor and evidence that USADA is in vendetta not 'justice' mode... In addition to banning three foreigners for life without a trial. That part is still absurd I can't fathom and apparently don't know anyone-- even online-- dumb enough to defend it, though perhaps they are out there.

Anyay, Unless (H)GH, which is to say George Hincapie has photos of LA & JB strapping him down... And anyone who doesn't know HGH had that nickname for years might want to check themselves before commenting further.

Who shot up Vaughters for the first time? Leipheimer? Yah, I'm sure the very first time these guys doped was when LA showed them how. Not that anyone cares about Zabriskie or CVV but it'd be nice to see them stripped of all their third rate 'palmares' anyway.

Q: Who shot up Johan Musseuw? Eric Zabel? Santi Botero? etc etc.



All this talk about Lance being the owner and participating in a vast doping conspiracy is going to be the exact thing that allows him to walk away from this.

I'm sure they have testimony that can showed he doped. However, they are trying to show that he was the enabler.

I don't think they will have that.

All the american media will report is that the USADA has dropped the case against Lance and all will be right in the world again.

Vive la Lance!

[PQJ]

I am NOT Paul Kimmage: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12357/Kimmage-disappointed-in-Wiggins-and-Team-Sky-over-transparency.aspx#ixzz20KSFoup8.

[goonster]

And anyone who doesn't know HGH had that nickname for years might want to check themselves before commenting further.
Good thing you're not on a vendetta to slander the good name of this man, who has never failed a test or admitted to doping (that we know of).

[harryblack]

Goonster-- NOW you're catching on... I've said numerous times I like George, don't consider him a great champion but like him and his clothes... I only put GH up for that

1) because the Lance haters swoon over GH

2) second-raters like Levi

3) third-raters like CVV, DZ (I don't like those three for sporting not personal reasons)

4) Horner, whom I do like and apparently wasn't called to testify.

I'd just like to see ethical consistency and, of course, a much closer semblance of due process on the USADA front.

Q1: I don't have an answer for is WHO LEAKED that George et al testified?

Seems likely it was the USADA side; if so, why? To embarrass and now possibly strip Lance?

Free George, sure (tho' the rumors are common), but I give LA the full rights of legal ethics, procedure too.

Q2: What if Lance doped Postal/Discovery (likely) and did NOT Astana/Radio Shack (which he'd be crazy to do)?

Maybe he is that crazy/confident or maybe USADA is so freaked out they're over-prosecuting in more ways than one.

Good thing you're not on a vendetta to slander the good name of this man, who has never failed a test or admitted to doping (that we know of).

[TomP]

Things appear to be spreading upwards.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/07/news/u-s-lawmaker-requests-probe-of-usada-over-armstrong-case_229472

[CunegoFan]

Things appear to be spreading upwards.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/07/news/u-s-lawmaker-requests-probe-of-usada-over-armstrong-case_229472

Sounds like Trek in Wisconsin is still intent on protecting dopers.

[CunegoFan]

And the USADA's response:

“The case against all those involved in the USPS Pro-Cycling Team Doping Conspiracy, including Lance Armstrong was not brought lightly,” the statement read. ” We are well aware of his popularity and the admirers he has on Capitol Hill and elsewhere, but our responsibility is to clean athletes who demand that USADA protect their right to a level playing field by eradicating drug use from sport. They rightly depend upon USADA to ensure that no matter how famous or anonymous, we will treat each alleged offender the same. USADA accomplishes this directive when it has sufficient evidence and not on any other basis. Any decision to sanction an athlete is the result of multi-level review by persons independent of USADA including a panel of arbitrators following a full evidentiary hearing with a right of appeal where, witness testimony is given under oath and subject to cross examination and which can be open to the public.

“The evidence is overwhelming, and were we not to bring this case, we would be complicit in covering up evidence of doping, and failing to do our job on behalf of those we are charged with protecting. We will reach out to Congressman Sensenbrenner and offer to come in and discuss the process, which is the same in all cases whether it involves high profile athletes or those who are not. We will also offer to brief the Congressman on how USADA is funded and the oversight that is provided by ONDCP. USADA is an open and transparent organization and welcomes to opportunity to fully address the Congressman’s inquiry.”

[r_mutt]

corruption hard at work: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/07/lance-armstrong-gets-a-favor-on-capitol-hill/

why are we surprised? how much is lance going to donate to his re-election campaign?

[CunegoFan]

corruption hard at work: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/07/lance-armstrong-gets-a-favor-on-capitol-hill/

why are we surprised? how much is lance going to donate to his re-election campaign?

The Congressman was singing a different tune before..

"In March 2004, Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner (R-WI) introduced HR 3866, the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004. The Act proposed an amendment that would add anabolic steroids to the list of drugs prohibited under the Controlled Substances Act. The bill included a detailed list of many new substances that would be banned, and suggested double penalties for those who manufacture and sell steroids near ‘sports facilities."

http://www.withoutthejuice.com/act-congress-stop-steroids/

A quote of his:

"It is essential that we put an end to steroid abuse and set a better example for aspiring young athletes to follow, so that some day, when they make it in the All Star Game, it will be because of their own natural talents, and not because of a performance enhancing product.

Several professional athletes have wrongly taught many young Americans by example that the only way to succeed in sports is to take steroids.

Football, basketball, and the Olympic sports all have their problems with banned substances."

I guess the biggest doper in cycling need to be protected by Sensenbrenner.

[echelon_john]

Wow.

Just, wow.

What a ****ing douche.

The Congressman was singing a different tune before..

"In March 2004, Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner (R-WI) introduced HR 3866, the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004. The Act proposed an amendment that would add anabolic steroids to the list of drugs prohibited under the Controlled Substances Act. The bill included a detailed list of many new substances that would be banned, and suggested double penalties for those who manufacture and sell steroids near ‘sports facilities."

http://www.withoutthejuice.com/act-congress-stop-steroids/

A quote of his:

"It is essential that we put an end to steroid abuse and set a better example for aspiring young athletes to follow, so that some day, when they make it in the All Star Game, it will be because of their own natural talents, and not because of a performance enhancing product.

Several professional athletes have wrongly taught many young Americans by example that the only way to succeed in sports is to take steroids.

Football, basketball, and the Olympic sports all have their problems with banned substances."

I guess the biggest doper in cycling need to be protected by Sensenbrenner.

[William]

The Congressman was singing a different tune before..

"In March 2004, Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner (R-WI) introduced HR 3866, the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004. The Act proposed an amendment that would add anabolic steroids to the list of drugs prohibited under the Controlled Substances Act. The bill included a detailed list of many new substances that would be banned, and suggested double penalties for those who manufacture and sell steroids near ‘sports facilities."

http://www.withoutthejuice.com/act-congress-stop-steroids/

A quote of his:

"It is essential that we put an end to steroid abuse and set a better example for aspiring young athletes to follow, so that some day, when they make it in the All Star Game, it will be because of their own natural talents, and not because of a performance enhancing product.

Several professional athletes have wrongly taught many young Americans by example that the only way to succeed in sports is to take steroids.

Football, basketball, and the Olympic sports all have their problems with banned substances."

I guess the biggest doper in cycling need to be protected by Sensenbrenner.


My how that green works.:mad:




William

[zennmotion]

The Congressman was singing a different tune before..

"In March 2004, Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner (R-WI) introduced HR 3866, the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004. The Act proposed an amendment that would add anabolic steroids to the list of drugs prohibited under the Controlled Substances Act. The bill included a detailed list of many new substances that would be banned, and suggested double penalties for those who manufacture and sell steroids near ‘sports facilities."

http://www.withoutthejuice.com/act-congress-stop-steroids/

A quote of his:

"It is essential that we put an end to steroid abuse and set a better example for aspiring young athletes to follow, so that some day, when they make it in the All Star Game, it will be because of their own natural talents, and not because of a performance enhancing product.

Several professional athletes have wrongly taught many young Americans by example that the only way to succeed in sports is to take steroids.

Football, basketball, and the Olympic sports all have their problems with banned substances."

I guess the biggest doper in cycling need to be protected by Sensenbrenner.

Having this man on your side should be an embarrassment- Dear Trek Bikes, screw you.

Here's another one of Sensenbrenner's finer moments insulting the First Lady

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/12/23/jim-sensenbrenner-slurs-first-lady-instead-of-addressing-her-issues.html

And apparently he's an expert on climate change as well

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/05/22/488572/sensenbrenner-co2-is-a-natural-gas-does-this-mean-that-all-of-us-need-to-put-catalytic-converters-on-our-noses/?mobile=nc

[Rueda Tropical]

Having this man on your side should be an embarrassment- Dear Trek Bikes, screw you.

Here's another one of Sensenbrenner's finer moments insulting the First Lady

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/12/23/jim-sensenbrenner-slurs-first-lady-instead-of-addressing-her-issues.html

And apparently he's an expert on climate change as well

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/05/22/488572/sensenbrenner-co2-is-a-natural-gas-does-this-mean-that-all-of-us-need-to-put-catalytic-converters-on-our-noses/?mobile=nc

Contador got the Prime Minister to go to bat for him. This turd is the best Armstrong can do?

Although I bet Pat won't be suggesting anything like this on the LA case: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcquaid-spanish-poltical-pressure-made-contador-appeal-necessary.

I doubt there is anything the Congressman can do other then threaten in the time frame of the next 30 days. If Armstrong gets sanctioned and the press and public turn against LA I expect Sensenbrenner will forget he ever knew Armstrong.

[Vientomas]

I wonder if LA and/or Trek and/or Livestrong created a SuperPAC to support Sensenbrenner's future political aspirations or simply made a sizable campaign contribution? I suspect someone with Sensenbrenner's apparent lack of integrity could be encouraged to adopt a "constituent's" position given an appropriate sum of money.

[Rueda Tropical]

Problem for Armstrong is Tygart when into this knowing what to expect. Intimidation won't work. He needs an actual court ruling to shut USADA down.

[Earl Gray]

corruption hard at work: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/07/lance-armstrong-gets-a-favor-on-capitol-hill/

why are we surprised? how much is lance going to donate to his re-election campaign?

This should make all the haters happy.

When Lance walks they can blame it on a corrupt Gov't.

[54ny77]

this is not a surprise at all given who he's got as counsel.

and it speaks volumes as to there being a lot more stakeholders behind the scenes.

he's but a figurehead, albeit an important one with skin in the game as well.

it's certainly getting more interesting at this point.

[r_mutt]

This should make all the haters happy.

When Lance walks they can blame it on a corrupt Gov't.

who are the haters? the people who hate clean sport and corruption or the people who hate doping?

[witcombusa]

Great shot...can we call it the undoing?

[jet sanchez]

this is not a surprise at all given who he's got as counsel.

and it speaks volumes as to there being a lot more stakeholders behind the scenes.

he's but a figurehead, albeit an important one with skin in the game as well.

it's certainly getting more interesting at this point.

The best thing to ever happen to the sport (and business) of cycling was Lance Armstrong. When he retired, every aspect of cycling was affected. Not one cycling company nor race official nor professional racer wants Lance to be found guilty. The sport, such as it is, will never recover if those 7 titles are stripped from him.

[harryblack]

Don't forget the (mostly garbage) titles of George, Levi, Zabriskie, CVV and Vaughters!!!

How do I know they were dopers (too)?

Because ** SOMEONE ** leaked it...

Who? Was it Grand Jury testimony, illegally leaked?

If so, ** why **?

"Funny" how the USADA defenders conveniently don't care to address these curious rumors and how they appeared just in time to eff with LA at various points.

Why not just build their 'unmistakable' case in silence?

Hmmmmmm.

The best thing to ever happen to the sport (and business) of cycling was Lance Armstrong. When he retired, every aspect of cycling was affected. Not one cycling company nor race official nor professional racer wants Lance to be found guilty. The sport, such as it is, will never recover if those 7 titles are stripped from him.

[CunegoFan]

Don't forget the (mostly garbage) titles of George, Levi, Zabriskie, CVV and Vaughters!!!

How do I know they were dopers (too)?

Because ** SOMEONE ** leaked it...

Who? Was it Grand Jury testimony, illegally leaked?

If so, ** why **?

"Funny" how the USADA defenders conveniently don't care to address these curious rumors and how they appeared just in time to eff with LA at various points.

Why not just build their 'unmistakable' case in silence?

Hmmmmmm.

Yeah. Of all the newpapers the USADA could have leaked the information to they chose a Holland paper for which Bruyneel writes a regular column. The USADA even forgot to take into account that Vaughters and Vande Velde rode for Postal more than eight years ago when handing out six month bans. Vaughters and Vande Velde should be pissed.

The leak could not possibly have been made by someone in Armstrong's camp who was too careless to take the statue of limitations into account when guessing about bans, could it? Nah. Of course not.

[CunegoFan]

The best thing to ever happen to the sport (and business) of cycling was Lance Armstrong. When he retired, every aspect of cycling was affected. Not one cycling company nor race official nor professional racer wants Lance to be found guilty. The sport, such as it is, will never recover if those 7 titles are stripped from him.

Oh, give me a break. Armstrong finally getting punished for cheating won't cause anyone to stop riding their bikes or buying new ones.

The pro side of the sport will be better off when Armstrong is held accountable for what he did. People will be able to talk honestly about the EPO/transfusion era without having to pretend that Armstrong was clean. It will be a step forward.

[Rueda Tropical]

The best thing to ever happen to the sport (and business) of cycling was Lance Armstrong. When he retired, every aspect of cycling was affected. Not one cycling company nor race official nor professional racer wants Lance to be found guilty. The sport, such as it is, will never recover if those 7 titles are stripped from him.

The graveyards are full of indispensable men.
-Charles de Gaulle

The scandal will generate more interest in cycling then its ever experienced in the US. As Paris, Kim and Lindsay can tell you... now a days nothing sells like sleaze. This could make cycling as popular as football.

[firerescuefin]

The best thing to ever happen to the sport (and business) of cycling was Lance Armstrong. When he retired, every aspect of cycling was affected. Not one cycling company nor race official nor professional racer wants Lance to be found guilty. The sport, such as it is, will never recover if those 7 titles are stripped from him.

You must not know anyone involved in pro cycling. Try 180 deg from your post. He is neither liked nor respected. Do you think anyone following cycling today (knowing its past and current struggles) would blink if he was stripped.

Had Armstrong not been such a prick along the way, alienating so many people, there wouldnt be so many out for blood.

[TMB]

The best thing to ever happen to the sport (and business) of cycling was Lance Armstrong. When he retired, every aspect of cycling was affected. Not one cycling company nor race official nor professional racer wants Lance to be found guilty. The sport, such as it is, will never recover if those 7 titles are stripped from him.

Who cares?

Cycling is not about officials, or organizers, or governing bodies or even tour de France winners, it is about people that take their bikes out the garage and go ride with friends.

And methinks that a lot of people in Norway, and England and South Africa, and .... Will not care one whit if Armstrong loses his titles. And they have cycling in some of those countries. I know that may be hard to believe.

[Earl Gray]

...The scandal will generate more interest in cycling then its ever experienced in the US......

So the fall of Lance will bring more americans to cycling than the rise of Lance did?

Are you really so blinded by hate that you can not admit that Lance is the primary cause for the increase in participation of Road biking in the USA?

Not saying that's a good or bad thing but it is what it is.

How can you be that mad at him?

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Bikes were raced and ridden before, and will be, after.

[Rueda Tropical]

So the fall of Lance will bring more americans to cycling than the rise of Lance did?

Are you really so blinded by hate that you can not admit that Lance is the primary cause for the increase in participation of Road biking in the USA?

Not saying that's a good or bad thing but it is what it is.

How can you be that mad at him?


You really are over the top. "Blinded by hate" - I don't like cheats and frauds in politics, business or sport but hate is way to strong a sentiment for something I really have no skin in. If he'd destroyed my career, if I was a talented cyclist who wanted to race clean, maybe I'd feel more strongly, but as a spectator -hardly.

Since Lance can't mount a credible defense he's left with attacking the process and the character and the motives of officials doing their job. "It's vindictive, obsessive, a witch hunt"... it's "haters". It's nothing so special. It's just a cheat who got caught. It's just the biggest doping operation in a sport plagued by doping getting taken down. His apologists seem to be repeating the talking point about anyone who thinks its a good thing for a cheat to get sanctioned.

Armstrong made lots of people lots of money and sold lots of bikes. The building and management of his brand, leveraging Livestrong and his TdF wins was brilliant from a marketing, business point of view. Joe Paterno and Sandusky built quite the popular franchise and made a lot of people money on a rotten foundation. Doesn't justify it's continuance although there were many who did not want the myth to end. Before you get all offended I'm not making any moral equivalence to what Sandusky did and what Armstrong did.

We will see what the impact on cycling is. The world will not end if Armstrong gets sanctioned.

Everyday in finance bigger frauds and cheats then Armstrong get way with it. It does not make me happy but I don't lose sleep over it. It's the way the world we live in works. So if Armstrong finds a way to slither out of this I would not be surprised. It pretty much would be business as usual. I'd trade sanctions on Armstrong for sanctions on a couple of bank CEO's but I'll take any small victory against bad actors in a world where they always seem to call the shots .

[Climb01742]

Cycling is not about officials, or organizers, or governing bodies or even tour de France winners, it is about people that take their bikes out the garage and go ride with friends.

+1
sports are about_every_person who laces up their sneakers and sweats. the 'pinnacle' ain't the whole pyramid.

[PQJ]

So the fall of Lance will bring more americans to cycling than the rise of Lance did?

Are you really so blinded by hate that you can not admit that Lance is the primary cause for the increase in participation of Road biking in the USA?

Not saying that's a good or bad thing but it is what it is.

How can you be that mad at him?

Why do you impute hate to everyone who simply sees Armstrong for what it is? You bandy the word around so much it strikes me you fail to see who the real hatemonger is.

[harryblack]

Please, Cunego-- please TRY to keep up? Would you care to tell us when we ** FIRST ** learned about who "allegedly" testified and WHERE that info appeared?

HINT 1: it was not this year.

HINT 2: it was not any Dutch newspaper.

I'd offer you multiple choice answers but this isn't BikeSnobNYC so the research is yours-- though there might be more than one correct answer depending on what leaks we agree we're concerned with.

HINT 3: Los Angeles Times, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, _________

Q1: Why didn't Chris Horner testify?

Q2: Why didn't Kevin Livingston testify?


Yeah. Of all the newpapers the USADA could have leaked the information to they chose a Holland paper for which Bruyneel writes a regular column. The USADA even forgot to take into account that Vaughters and Vande Velde rode for Postal more than eight years ago when handing out six month bans. Vaughters and Vande Velde should be pissed.

The leak could not possibly have been made by someone in Armstrong's camp who was too careless to take the statue of limitations into account when guessing about bans, could it? Nah. Of course not.

[Grant McLean]

...can not admit that Lance is the primary cause for the increase in participation of Road biking in the USA?


There is no way to support or disprove this statement either way.

My opinion:

For every 1 road rider that took up cycling to 'be like Lance' -
the flip side is the image of competitive jerks in lycra is the thing
that keeps a thousand regular folks from ever considering cycling
as a 'normal' thing to do.

-g

[CunegoFan]

Please, Cunego-- please TRY to keep up? Would you care to tell us when we ** FIRST ** learned about who "allegedly" testified and WHERE that info appeared?

HINT 1: it was not this year.

HINT 2: it was not any Dutch newspaper.

I'd offer you multiple choice answers but this isn't BikeSnobNYC so the research is yours-- though there might be more than one correct answer depending on what leaks we agree we're concerned with.

HINT 3: Los Angeles Times, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, _________

Q1: Why didn't Chris Horner testify?

Q2: Why didn't Kevin Livingston testify?

Why don't you try to keep up yourself, you condescending asshole. What? Not going to make fun of my spelling this time? Perhaps you can mock my grammar since I am not great with that either.

Why don't you try dealing with the issue that the "leak" with phony information about six month bans was given to De Telegraaf. Bruyneel writes a regular column for it. Coincidence? Did Tygart, the Dr. Evil that runs the nefarious USADA that is out to destroy a great American hero, choose that newspaper to frame gold ol' Bruyneel?

What does Horner or a washed up pro whose income is dependent on Armstrong because he leads spin classes at Mellow Johnny's have to do with your unfounded allegations that the USADA is leaking?

[Earl Gray]

There is no way to support or disprove this statement either way.

My opinion:

For every 1 road rider that took up cycling to 'be like Lance' -
the flip side is the image of competitive jerks in lycra is the thing
that keeps a thousand regular folks from ever considering cycling
as a 'normal' thing to do.

-g

If you happen to know any that has been in the industry for the last 10-15 years, just ask them about road cycling related sales before Lance, during Lance and post Lance.

I'm quit confident that if the USADA can prove Lance ran a wide spread doping operation with a little use of gray matter you can piece together his impact on cycling.

As much as it might hurt a few fragile egos, Lance has had more of impact then all the talking heads on the internet combined and by a factor of 1000s.

As a matter of fact, the talking heads and their minions (often referred to as the Cabal) on the internet would not have an audience sans Lance.

Jus Sayin!

[Germany_chris]

Time to lock this one down

[witcombusa]

If you happen to know any that has been in the industry for the last 10-15 years, just ask them about road cycling related sales before Lance, during Lance and post Lance.

I'm quit confident that if the USADA can prove Lance ran a wide spread doping operation with a little use of gray matter you can piece together his impact on cycling.

As much as it might hurt a few fragile egos, Lance has had more of impact then all the talking heads on the internet combined and by a factor of 1000s.

As a matter of fact, the talking heads and their minions (often referred to as the Cabal) on the internet would not have an audience sans Lance.

Jus Sayin!


You are a piece of work.

I know I was cycling long before his momma let him out to play in the backyard

And will be long after he is stripped of everything that he didn't actually accomplish :no:

[Keith A]

Time to lock this one downI don't have the time right now to sort this out, but I've received enough messages about this that I'm going to trust their judgment and shut this down.