Lance attacks!

[sc53]

From today's Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/lance-armstrong-files-suit-against-usada/2012/07/09/gJQA1UL8XW_story.html

Lots of high-powered Washington lawyers to combine with some Texas types in seeking a TRO against USADA. USADA doesn't stand a chance.

From the article:
Lance Armstrong filed a lawsuit in federal court Monday morning and asked for a temporary restraining order against the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, alleging that the 12-year-old organization and its chief executive have engaged in an obsessive, unlawful and meritless campaign to strip him of his seven Tour de France titles and ruin his legacy.

In an 80-page complaint filed in the U.S. District Court in the Western District of Texas, Armstrong alleges that USADA and CEO Travis Tygart don’t have the jurisdiction to attempt to charge him with being a central player in a massive sports doping conspiracy, yet have done so while violating his constitutional rights, breaking the organization’s own rules and possibly breaking federal laws.

[bagochips3]

I thought he said he wasn't going to fight USADA charges and didn't care if he lost his titles :rolleyes:

[PQJ]

He is spending oodles of $$ on legal fees. Surely it'd be better spent on cancer research!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sandyrs]

He is spending oodles of $$ on legal fees. Surely it'd be better spent on cancer research!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

troll!

[wooly]

I predict 10+pages on this one, with some major flaming between a few fellow forumites, then a thread closure by mods! :banana:

[eddief]

Lance and drugs are such small potoatoes compared to the many to whom no attention is ever paid. I say if he has been able to outsmart the system this long, he should be given credit for that and be left alone.

[dancinkozmo]

...the armstrong empire is too big to fail

[William]

http://express.howstuffworks.com/gif/webquest-soccer-red-card.jpg

[PQJ]

troll!

Kettle calling the pot black much?

[gone]

Predictable. Anybody who thought LA was going to sit back and let USADA strip him of all his titles is delusional.

[benitosan1972]

This should be fun to watch... Keep it lively here boys :banana:

[znfdl]

who the f_ck reall cares any more......

[William]

Predictable. Anybody who thought LA was going to sit back and let USADA strip him of all his titles is delusional.

"I love you man!!"

http://cdn.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/lance-armstrong-calls-you-out.jpg





W.;)
.

[hokoman]

I say if he has been able to outsmart the system this long, he should be given credit for that and be left alone.

I second this and I don't even care for the guy, but let it die.

[54ny77]

I hope Lance sues France in general (just out of spite) and settles out of court for the '06 - '11 TDF titles.

:bike:

[illuminaught]

like driving under 0.08% BAC...

[FlashUNC]

And the wheels keep turning...

http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/dymediggler/Stills/this_thread_again.jpg

[rwsaunders]

In its charging letter, USADA said it had acquired testimony of at least 10 witnesses with “firsthand” knowledge of the alleged doping violations, but Armstrong’s attorneys have complained that Armstrong has been unable to obtain information about the identity of the witnesses or the specific charges each makes.

If this statement is true, it really doesn't matter who you are, for when you are accused of any crime, you do have the right to be made aware of the claims that witnesses have made against you. Witness protection is another story.

It's also hard to believe that the USADA would take a stand if they believed that their case was weak, but I find it interesting that the timing of the announcement was made shortly before the Tour started. Maximum media exposure I guess.

[Fixed]

He is rich fighter
Cheers I bet he spends five million on legal counsel
:)

[54ny77]

that's probably his annual retainer expense alone....


He is rich fighter
Cheers I bet he spends five million on legal counsel
:)

[FlashUNC]

In its charging letter, USADA said it had acquired testimony of at least 10 witnesses with “firsthand” knowledge of the alleged doping violations, but Armstrong’s attorneys have complained that Armstrong has been unable to obtain information about the identity of the witnesses or the specific charges each makes.

If this statement is true, it really doesn't matter who you are, for when you are accused of any crime, you do have the right to be made aware of the claims that witnesses have made against you. Witness protection is another story.

It's also hard to believe that the USADA would take a stand if they believed that their case was weak, but I find it interesting that the timing of the announcement was made shortly before the Tour started. Maximum media exposure I guess.

I'm curious how Lance's Sixth Amendment rights would impact the case since, effectively, this is an arbitration between private sporting bodies. Any legal beagles around with some perspective?

[cmg]

USADA has brought charges without a positive drug test. NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE. i wish them luck, they're going to need a bigger budget... if he survived a federal investigation, this is nothing. out spend them by a million and win.

[Richard]

5 - 4 SCOTUS? Deciding vote by.......

[christian]

If this statement is true, it really doesn't matter who you are, for when you are accused of any crime, you do have the right to be made aware of the claims that witnesses have made against you. Witness protection is another story.Being charged with a doping violation by a sporting body is not a crime. Its more akin to being accused of cheating at Monopoly. Constitutional due process claims don't enter into it.

[Fixed]

I predict 10+pages on this one, with some major flaming between a few fellow forumites, then a thread closure by mods! :banana:

+1.
All this while the tour is on nobody watching ?
Cheers :)

[William]

He is rich fighter
Cheers I bet he spends five million on legal counsel
:)

Einstein proved it....

.

[maxdog]

I don't usually comment on these inane threads, but this one has some really laugh out loud funny commentary. Thanks folks, and special appreciation to the ever amusing William and 54ny77 as well. Trading the financial markets can get tedious.

[wooly]

5 - 4 SCOTUS? Deciding vote by.......

CJ Roberts would make even more friends on this one.

[Germany_chris]

I hope he beats them (feds)..AGAIN

[biker72]

i predict 10+pages on this one, with some major flaming between a few fellow forumites, then a thread closure by mods! :banana:

+1

[Bob Loblaw]

I thought I didn't care, but I read this thread. Again.

I guess I am bugged because if it's true, all the growth in American cycling during the USPS/Discovery reign, the rapid advance of bike technology, the increases in rider salaries, all of it grew out of cheating and lies. You could make a strong argument that without Lance and co. owning the Tour for seven years, the USA would be Canada right now in terms of our presence on the ProTour, and CF rims would exist only on paper (with Spinergy as a cautionary tale).

And the USADA wants to tear it all down and hand the Tour titles to whom? Another doper?

If there is a moral victory to be had for either side here, I can't see it.

BL

[Earl Gray]

I thought I didn't care, but I read this thread. Again.

I guess I am bugged because if it's true, all the growth in American cycling during the USPS/Discovery reign, the rapid advance of bike technology, the increases in rider salaries, all of it grew out of cheating and lies. You could make a strong argument that without Lance and co. owning the Tour for seven years, the USA would be Canada right now in terms of our presence on the ProTour, and CF rims would exist only on paper (with Spinergy as a cautionary tale).




Not to mention the number of custom frame makers. Without Lance there would most likely be none are very, very, very few.

I don't think the cross crowd could support them for long and the MTB crowd is too stoned to care.

[Earl Gray]

In a perfect world the injunction woudl come in time for him to race and win Kona!

[rugbysecondrow]

How far back ought we tolerate investigating drug use or cheating in a sport, any sport? I appreciate justice, but going after Lance seems more like vengeance to me. They have gone after him a couple different ways and lost. Time to take your lumps and move on. I don't have strong feelings either way, but just as a general notion, it is time to move on.

Clean up where they are now, make the sport the best they can going forward.

[Fixed]

With out lance where would all the posers be
Cheers :)

[wooly]

How far back ought we tolerate investigating drug use or cheating in a sport, any sport? I appreciate justice, but going after Lance seems more like vengeance to me. They have gone after him a couple different ways and lost. Time to take your lumps and move on. I don't have strong feelings either way, but just as a general notion, it is time to move on.

Clean up where they are now, make the sport the best they can going forward.

+ One Trillion

[JohnHemlock]

Predictable. Anybody who thought LA was going to sit back and let USADA strip him of all his titles is delusional.

+1. This is when that competitive SOB actually starts enjoying himself. What did he tell Simeoni? - "I have money, lawyers, and time, and I will destroy you."

As an American who has been accused of various things (and wrongly at least 37% of the time) I appreciate a good lawyer blitzkrieg!

[bikerboy337]

BUT.....you'll notice that the people they are going after are current, active participants.. lance in his tri's, johan is a team manager, Pepe Marti is with Astana, Luis Garcia del Moral is with the Sports institute of Valencia and actively "coaches" athletes (he's the guy that got Matt White from garmin fired for sending a rider to him), and then there's michelle ferrari...

this isn't just about lance, they are going after current players in cycling and in sport... yes, lance stands to pay for his past abuses, but I think they're making a pretty heavy statement here folks, by going after the other people involved... should they go after other riders (ie. GH, LL, DZ etc?), probably... but this is a good start and I think its moving forward..

unfortunatly, all we seem to talk about is LA and forget there is a larger issue at hand that USADA is going after, all the others involved that helped LA out...

and as a reminder, he was racing Tri's, about to do Kona, and therefore is a current atlete that falls under the USADA jurisdiction, this isn't all about going back to nail him for something he did or didn't do in 1999...

How far back ought we tolerate investigating drug use or cheating in a sport, any sport? I appreciate justice, but going after Lance seems more like vengeance to me. They have gone after him a couple different ways and lost. Time to take your lumps and move on. I don't have strong feelings either way, but just as a general notion, it is time to move on.

Clean up where they are now, make the sport the best they can going forward.

[LegendRider]

If Armstrong manages to beat USADA, I'll be impressed in a disillusioned short of way...

[learningtoride]

.

[rugbysecondrow]

Sure, test him now. Make sure he is clean now. What does him racing now have to do with what he may or may not have done 10 years ago? He passed tests then, they have a suspicion that he did cheat, but no evidence or he would have been nailed already. You have it or you don't. If they don't and there is no real chance of nailing him, then they should put a period at the end of the statement and move on.

I am not saying he is guilty or innocent, but it is just time to move forward.


BUT.....you'll notice that the people they are going after are current, active participants.. lance in his tri's, johan is a team manager, Pepe Marti is with Astana, Luis Garcia del Moral is with the Sports institute of Valencia (he's the guy that got Matt White from garmin fired for sending a ride to him), and then there's michelle ferrari...

this isn't just about lance, they are going after current players in cycling and in sport... yes, lance stands to pay for his past abuses, but I think they're making a pretty heavy statement here folks, by going after the other people involved... should they go after other riders (ie. GH, LL, DZ etc?), probably... but this is a good start and I think its moving forward..

unfortunatly, all we seem to talk about is LA and forget there is a larger issue at hand that USADA is going after, all the others involved that helped LA out...

and as a reminder, he was racing Tri's, about to do Kona, and therefore is a current atlete that falls under the USADA jurisdiction, this isn't all about going back to nail him for something he did or didn't do in 1999...

[JohnHemlock]

i love comming on board to have my morning coffee and see whats the latest here on the forum to find... OH WAIT...ANOTHER L.A. THREAD!
i can not express how overplayed stupid and downright boring this topic has become-i hope the moderators just lock this one up early before someone shows any real emotion and well, these threads can lead to bad things.
im going to the other forum to talk about cycling.
have a nice monday all.

We can close it now that we are attracting the people who post "I don't care about Lance threads" in a Lance thread. LOL.

[laupsi]

I am going against the grain and perhaps out on a limb here; I am thinking LA's legal suit will get thrown out, but only eventually.

[russ46]

JUST POSTED!!!

National Tattler reports WikiLeaks has internal emails that will be posted after LA's sentencing. These emails show the first Tour winner will be the next to be investigated. Evidently DNA results unearthed from Maurice Garin have been found to contain traces of opium use.

[goonster]

I am going against the grain and perhaps out on a limb here; I am thinking LA's legal suit will get thrown out, but only eventually.
He is asking the courts to intervene in a private matter. If they don't rule in his favor right quick, the USADA action proceeds.

[rwsaunders]

i love comming on board to have my morning coffee and see whats the latest here on the forum to find... OH WAIT...ANOTHER L.A. THREAD!
i can not express how overplayed stupid and downright boring this topic has become-i hope the moderators just lock this one up early before someone shows any real emotion and well, these threads can lead to bad things.
im going to the other forum to talk about cycling.
have a nice monday all.

There are 8 pages and counting over at VS, and I suspect that other bike forums give the LA/USADA subject equal press. Sometimes you just have to skip a thread.

[laupsi]

He is asking the courts to intervene in a private matter. If they don't rule in his favor right quick, the USADA action proceeds.

what amount of time is "right quick"? a week, a month, several months?

[laupsi]

actully I just read LA is asking for an injunction by Saturday. That is fast!

[Uncle Jam's Army]

By the sheer money Lance can spend on attorneys, he has the ability to cripple USADA financially by making motion after motion and requiring discovery on USADA's practices and procedures. Patton Boggs and Williams & Connolly are no joke. I would prepare myself to be overwhelmed, if I'm USADA's in-house and outside counsel.

[benc]

I'm over all of this too, but I want to see Lance win Kona...

[goonster]

They have gone after him a couple different ways and lost.
I know that this is a common perception, but who are "they"?

A french newspaper here, an Irish journalist there . . . those were all potshots, relatively speaking. For the first time, the sanctioning body with jurisdiction has filed charges.

[weiwentg]

The rules of the game say that athletes can't use drugs to enhance their performance. Those have been the rules since forever.

Lance swore up and down that he was clean when he won seven Tours. Most people believed that he was clean.

Now, two of his teammates have confessed that they, and he, were doped to the gills during those years.

The case should be heard. First, allegations that serious should be investigated. Second, if we want a clean sport, we cannot afford to say that it's time to move on, leave Lance alone. We need to know how he did it, and with whose help. If we just sweep this stuff under the rug, it'll just surface again.

I'm not interested in rewriting the record books. Even if the allegations are true, he won on a level field, against people who were almost certainly on PEDs as well. I'm not necessarily interested in digging things up all the way back to Maurice Garin: evidence is stale, and there are statutes of limitations. And to some extent, we know they were on amphetamines (Fausto Coppi's infamous quote). We know a lot of people doped during the Festina years.

But I am interested in getting the allegations out into the open. And having them heard by a competent panel. And hearing Lance's response. Which, I hope, will be substantive attempts to rebut the claims, instead of allegations that Travis Tygart is doing this out of some vendetta.

[e-RICHIE]

<cut>...unfortunatly, all we seem to talk about is LA and forget there is a larger issue at hand that USADA is going after, all the others involved that helped LA out...



Agreeing ^.
This USADA thing is not really about whether Lance cheated/got away
with it so much as it includes him because he was a team owner atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool::cool::cool:
;););)
:rolleyes::rolleyes::)

[William]

I thought I didn't care, but I read this thread. Again.

I guess I am bugged because if it's true, all the growth in American cycling during the USPS/Discovery reign, the rapid advance of bike technology, the increases in rider salaries, all of it grew out of cheating and lies. You could make a strong argument that without Lance and co. owning the Tour for seven years, the USA would be Canada right now in terms of our presence on the ProTour, and CF rims would exist only on paper (with Spinergy as a cautionary tale).

....

BL

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=805434&postcount=29

:)


William

[rwsaunders]

I found this on the USADA website...sanctioned US athletes over the past few years and their respective sports.

http://www.usada.org/sanctions

[laupsi]

The rules of the game say that athletes can't use drugs to enhance their performance. Those have been the rules since forever.

Lance swore up and down that he was clean when he won seven Tours. Most people believed that he was clean.

Now, two of his teammates have confessed that they, and he, were doped to the gills during those years.

The case should be heard. First, allegations that serious should be investigated. Second, if we want a clean sport, we cannot afford to say that it's time to move on, leave Lance alone. We need to know how he did it, and with whose help. If we just sweep this stuff under the rug, it'll just surface again.

I'm not interested in rewriting the record books. Even if the allegations are true, he won on a level field, against people who were almost certainly on PEDs as well. I'm not necessarily interested in digging things up all the way back to Maurice Garin: evidence is stale, and there are statutes of limitations. And to some extent, we know they were on amphetamines (Fausto Coppi's infamous quote). We know a lot of people doped during the Festina years.

But I am interested in getting the allegations out into the open. And having them heard by a competent panel. And hearing Lance's response. Which, I hope, will be substantive attempts to rebut the claims, instead of allegations that Travis Tygart is doing this out of some vendetta.

gotta agree!

[Germany_chris]

The rules of the game say that athletes can't use drugs to enhance their performance. Those have been the rules since forever.

Lance swore up and down that he was clean when he won seven Tours. Most people believed that he was clean.

Now, two of his teammates have confessed that they, and he, were doped to the gills during those years.

The case should be heard. First, allegations that serious should be investigated. Second, if we want a clean sport, we cannot afford to say that it's time to move on, leave Lance alone. We need to know how he did it, and with whose help. If we just sweep this stuff under the rug, it'll just surface again.

I'm not interested in rewriting the record books. Even if the allegations are true, he won on a level field, against people who were almost certainly on PEDs as well. I'm not necessarily interested in digging things up all the way back to Maurice Garin: evidence is stale, and there are statutes of limitations. And to some extent, we know they were on amphetamines (Fausto Coppi's infamous quote). We know a lot of people doped during the Festina years.

But I am interested in getting the allegations out into the open. And having them heard by a competent panel. And hearing Lance's response. Which, I hope, will be substantive attempts to rebut the claims, instead of allegations that Travis Tygart is doing this out of some vendetta.

Whose we? I really don't care if the sport is clean.

[FixedNotBroken]

I found this on the USADA website...sanctioned US athletes over the past few years and their respective sports.

http://www.usada.org/sanctions

Tyler Hamilton. Yes.

[maxdog]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=805434&postcount=29

:)


William

Lance gave Handlebra a plug? If Ray didn't write this, that's cool.

[laupsi]

Whose we? I really don't care if the sport is clean.

c'mon, really? what's more enjoyable as a spectator:

1. witnessing a stage where a leader cracks under pressure after several arduous days and thus levels the playing field?

2. seeing the leader get his/her second/third/fourth wind and pull off either a top finish to stay in leader's position or win the stage outright, again?

I know the number of scenarios are great but hopefully you get the idea...

[goonster]

http://www.usada.org/sanctions
Wow. If they are testing paralympic archers, that is a pretty large pool.

[Germany_chris]

c'mon, really? what's more enjoyable as a spectator:

1. witnessing a stage where a leader cracks under pressure after several arduous days and thus levels the playing field?

2. seeing the leader get his/her second/third/fourth wind and pull off either a top finish to stay in leader's position or win the stage outright, again?

I know the number of scenarios are great but hopefully you get the idea...

This is one subject I've been quite consistent on: I have no inherent issue with drugs, in the peleton, on stage, on field, or at a party. It baffles me the continued pursuit of drugs. It's brought society virtually no benefit and cost us our treasure and lives.

If you are so driven to win that PED's become viable; more power to you.

[Nooch]

I found this on the USADA website...sanctioned US athletes over the past few years and their respective sports.

http://www.usada.org/sanctions

crazy about even the elite amatuers, like quintero (local crca guy), on that list..

[Fixed]

This is one subject I've been quite consistent on: I have no inherent issue with drugs, in the peleton, on stage, on field, or at a party. It baffles me the continued pursuit of drugs. It's brought society virtually no benefit and cost us our treasure and lives.

If you are so driven to win that PED's become viable; more power to you.

Yeah we have won the war on drugs ,
Cheers

[weiwentg]

Whose we? I really don't care if the sport is clean.

I would bet that the vast majority of spectators of all sports think that most athletes are clean. If this is not true, I think they would want to know.

Certainly I thought that Lance was clean, or was more likely to be clean than not, from about 2002 (when I started cycling) to about 2009 or 2010 (when more and more rumors started to surface and most of the people in Operacion Puerto had been sanctioned).

[laupsi]

This is one subject I've been quite consistent on: I have no inherent issue with drugs, in the peleton, on stage, on field, or at a party. It baffles me the continued pursuit of drugs. It's brought society virtually no benefit and cost us our treasure and lives.

If you are so driven to win that PED's become viable; more power to you.

if you're in a band and you play at least as well to my ear while under the influence, so be it. you're performance is not being judged against a background of competition; I am judging you on how good the notes sound to me.

I tend to treat competition differently. life aint fair, we're reminded of this daily. ironic, but give me my escape, drug free, allow sports to be an exception from the real worl. if it's artifical, sorry, but to me, that's unfair. what's the point otherwise? I can close my eyes and imagine anyone winning/doing well. if I dream it then for a while it's reality, no different than seeing someone do it artificially in my mind.

[Germany_chris]

if you're in a band and you play at least as well to my ear while under the influence, so be it. you're performance is not being judged against a background of competition; I am judging you on how good the notes sound to me.

I tend to treat competition differently. life aint fair, we're reminded of this daily. ironic, but give me my escape, drug free, allow sports to be an exception from the real worl. if it's artifical, sorry, but to me, that's unfair. what's the point otherwise? I can close my eyes and imagine anyone winning/doing well. if I dream it then for a while it's reality, no different than seeing someone do it artificially in my mind.

I'm supposed to give you something while you want to take mine away..

[Ralph]

Some how I'm missing the point of all the testing. I suppose to level the playing field now.....avoid some deaths in competition, etc. Avoid some health issues in old age....maybe. Better influence on youth....I doubt it.

I just figure when Lance got to the top level of his sport....he competed both on and off the bike. That's what it took. Doesn't make it right....but that's how it was. And he decided to compete. I'm not piling on.

[laupsi]

I'm supposed to give you something while you want to take mine away..

to each his own G-Chris. I suppose you can have yours, you do actually. Perhaps the dictum holds w/everything and nothing is what we perceive or "want to perceive". Like I said, it just ain't fair!

[Fixed]

I would think head injuries in football \ sports to be more serious
IMHO

[Germany_chris]

I would bet that the vast majority of spectators of all sports think that most athletes are clean. If this is not true, I think they would want to know.

Certainly I thought that Lance was clean, or was more likely to be clean than not, from about 2002 (when I started cycling) to about 2009 or 2010 (when more and more rumors started to surface and most of the people in Operacion Puerto had been sanctioned).

If that were true then there would be an outcry to test in the NFL, and NHL. The NFL home to linebackers that that weigh 300ish pounds can bench press 400+ and run the 40 in less than 4ish seconds..Not with out the help of juice.

I'm an omerta kinda guy do what you like just don't talk about it and defiantly don't talk about anyone else or what you've seen.

Since people are talking about it we have this, IF the USADA were going after all American dopers of all time I could understand but they're not. They're going after one dude the intent is to crucify, the death penalty proves that making example out of people doesn't deter anyone.

[slidey]

I second this...his statement suing France should read:

"Your nation makes money out of getting people higher than ever before (tourists on Eiffel tower), and look at my condition...I was six feet under and needed enough drugs to be above ground."

:help:

I hope Lance sues France in general (just out of spite) and settles out of court for the '06 - '11 TDF titles.

:bike:

[Germany_chris]

to each his own G-Chris. I suppose you can have yours, you do actually. Perhaps the dictum holds w/everything and nothing is what we perceive or "want to perceive". Like I said, it just ain't fair!

That's kind of Schopenhauer's take on art. It provides an escape from the suffering that is life because it provides means of escape. The "want to perceive" something is different/better.

...edit... The problem is it's not real, therefore and lie, which makes the views dishonest. Art especially frilly meaningless art (I'm looking at you Pink Floyd, Janice Joplin, Jimi Hendricks) is dishonest and no better than David Koresch

[texbike]

Now THIS is a thread that Viper could surely get himself banned responding to. :)

Go Lance! The best defense is a good offense.

Texbike

[Germany_chris]

You'll have to excuse the rant, it's not aimed at anyone it's just been a long month or so. I'm not much fun at parties nor am I a good riding buddy.

[54ny77]

I can't wait to see what kind of dirt, if any (i.e. if it makes it into the public domain), Armstrong presents on the entire USADA board.

Pay enough, and dig enough, and you'll find everyone's got some sort of something hidden in the attic....

Whether or not Armstrong doped is almost seemingly secondary at this point. It's a battle of process and jurisdiction.

[e-RICHIE]

Whether or not Armstrong doped is almost seemingly secondary at this point.

Right again atmo. It's not about him as a rider. He was a team owner and the org with its far reaching tentacles is the target now.

[rugbysecondrow]

I can't wait to see what kind of dirt, if any (i.e. if it makes it into the public domain), Armstrong presents on the entire USADA board.

Pay enough, and dig enough, and you'll find everyone's got some sort of something hidden in the attic....

Whether or not Armstrong doped is almost seemingly secondary at this point. It's a battle of process and jurisdiction.

Mess with the bull you get the horns...not sure who the bull is though?

[54ny77]

My guess is when it's all said and done--if it ever gets done--there'll be a lot of hamburger to go around.

Who knows what spiders of its own USADA has buried.

How far back and deep will it go? Did USADA or USOC or some other U.S. athletic organization ever bury findings in other sports?


Mess with the bull you get the horns...not sure who the bull is though?

[sc53]

I am going against the grain and perhaps out on a limb here; I am thinking LA's legal suit will get thrown out, but only eventually.

Nope. Lance will win, after spending millions.

[PQJ]

Now THIS is a thread that Viper could surely get himself banned responding to. :)

Go Lance! The best defense is a good offense.

Texbike

Isn't the best defense to have been innocent and not (mad) guilty as charged?

[54ny77]

Yep, and if he goes down they ALL go down.

Will be interesting to watch it unfold, if it even gets to that.

My cynical guess is at worst a slap on the wrist for some procedural goof.

There was an interesting article that you've posted links to in the past, the one where a then-USCF doc quit because of what he was seeing and when the big $ and big institutionalization of it all came to play circa early 80's or thereabouts. You should post that again.

Right again atmo. It's not about him as a rider. He was a team owner and the org with its far reaching tentacles is the target now.

[Tom]

Nope. Lance will win, after spending millions.

Yeah, I'm seeing a war of attrition.

[sc53]

what amount of time is "right quick"? a week, a month, several months?

Courts have to rule on TRO (temporary restraining orders) within days. That's the whole point, the "danger" is imminent and the court must act.

[sc53]

By the sheer money Lance can spend on attorneys, he has the ability to cripple USADA financially by making motion after motion and requiring discovery on USADA's practices and procedures. Patton Boggs and Williams & Connolly are no joke. I would prepare myself to be overwhelmed, if I'm USADA's in-house and outside counsel.

Bingo!

[laupsi]

That's kind of Schopenhauer's take on art. It provides an escape from the suffering that is life because it provides means of escape. The "want to perceive" something is different/better.

...edit... The problem is it's not real, therefore and lie, which makes the views dishonest. Art especially frilly meaningless art (I'm looking at you Pink Floyd, Janice Joplin, Jimi Hendricks) dishonest and no better than David Koresch

yes but Art is non threatening at least beyond a moral viewpoint.

when an architect/engineer "cheats" and designs a structure that appears safe but ultimately crumbles when occupied there are consequences. to the architect/engineer the structure was art; to those who lost lives it didn't matter how it was perceived.

as stated previously; I can wish anything, the outcome is the same. I can think I know something, the outcome is the same. my perception was off, my understanding of what took place was lacking and off base. I can honestly think the hottie at the stop light was eyeing me when she was possibly eyeing someone else. I belive it to be true but was it?

now if I view an outcome to a sporting event that was somehow tainted then the end result is the same; my perception was led astray; I want to have the "real thing", I deserve to have the "real thing" in this setting, this "competative" setting. I want to see "Competative Art"

viewing someone perform "art" in a competative environment has a somewhat quantitative quality. how good or how fast or how amazing. to understand that the "CA" was coaxed or stirred produces a temporary and non repeatable outcome under a different set of circumstances, ie. no drugs permitted. there's a "real or imaginary" exclamation point next to the moment of what took place. if the other, non-doping competing party was not producing "CA" or performing in the same fashion in a quantitative sense and we are truly aware of this, we would ask "what if..." or demand equal terms to acheive the same quantitative value.

[Elefantino]

Tyler Hamilton. Yes.
Hamilton found guilty? Then how is he racing in this year's Tour?

[laupsi]

Hamilton found guilty? Then how is he racing in this year's Tour?

yea I caught that too. Phil is getting on...

[tiretrax]

yea I caught that too. Phil is getting on...

I replayed that for my wife. She couldn't believe the misidentification. It really is time for him to go. He has so many malaprops each show, I wish I had a penny for every one I have heard over the years.

[Germany_chris]

yes but Art is non threatening at least beyond a moral viewpoint.

when an architect/engineer "cheats" and designs a structure that appears safe but ultimately crumbles when occupied there are consequences. to the architect/engineer the structure was art; to those who lost lives it didn't matter how it was perceived.

as stated previously; I can wish anything, the outcome is the same. I can think I know something, the outcome is the same. my perception was off, my understanding of what took place was lacking and off base. I can honestly think the hottie at the stop light was eyeing me when she was possibly eyeing someone else. I belive it to be true but was it?

now if I view an outcome to a sporting event that was somehow tainted then the end result is the same; my perception was led astray; I want to have the "real thing", I deserve to have the "real thing" in this setting, this "competative" setting. I want to see "Competative Art"

viewing someone perform "art" in a competative environment has a somewhat quantitative quality. how good or how fast or how amazing. to understand that the "CA" was coaxed or stirred produces a temporary and non repeatable outcome under a different set of circumstances, ie. no drugs permitted. there's a "real or imaginary" exclamation point next to the moment of what took place. if the other, non-doping competing party was not producing "CA" or performing in the same fashion in a quantitative sense and we are truly aware of this, we would ask "what if..." or demand equal terms to acheive the same quantitative value.

I would argue that you don't "deserve" anything especially is it "desired." Desire tends be be dreams/wish's which is what you're talking about. You desire a "clean" sport what you got was just sport which is real.

The terms are never equal, egalitarianism is a myth. Men do not succeed on their own merit opportunity must present itself. In modern American society opportunities do not present themselves in equal measure to all. Success of our Fathers and the benefit of race tend to regulate opportunities.

Lance was/is a gifted cyclist, he has the proper athletic abilities combined with the driving desire to win at all costs in his case the ends did justify the means. The means were most likely EPO but because when you mix substance with rumor you have power. The best lie has a grain of truth .

**edit** Please understand that nothing I say is aimed at you so much as you are providing a soapbox so rarely provided.

[laupsi]

I would argue that you don't "deserve" anything especially is it "desired." Desire tends be be dreams/wish's which is what you're talking about. You desire a "clean" sport what you got was just sport which is real.

The terms are never equal, egalitarianism is a myth. Men do not succeed on their own merit opportunity must present itself. In modern American society opportunities do not present themselves in equal measure to all. Success of our Fathers and the benefit of race tend to regulate opportunities.

Lance was/is a gifted cyclist, he has the proper athletic abilities combined with the driving desire to win at all costs in his case the ends did justify the means. The means were most likely EPO but because when you mix substance with rumor you have power. The best lie has a grain of truth .

**edit** Please understand that nothing I say is aimed at you so much as you are providing a soapbox so rarely provided.

cheers! and once more, as I stated earlier, you do have yours. it (reality) is so unfair!!!

[slowgoing]

I am going against the grain and perhaps out on a limb here; I am thinking LA's legal suit will get thrown out, but only eventually.

Agreed. These are the same jurisdiction and arbitration issues the USADA has faced many times before. At most he gets a delay and possibly a looksy at some of the evidence before the arbitration proceeds, but no way he avoids arbitration. He agreed to arbitration under their rules and he's stuck with it.

[Germany_chris]

cheers! and once more, as I stated earlier, you do have yours. it (reality) is so unfair!!!

:banana: I'll take science over religion any time. Religion is another hot button of mine.

[MarleyMon]

Courts have to rule on TRO (temporary restraining orders) within days. That's the whole point, the "danger" is imminent and the court must act.

And how many need to act - only one?
http://www.txwd.uscourts.gov/general/judges/biographylist.asp

Looks like a couple were appointed by one of LA's riding buddies.

[nicrump]

which ones?

And how many need to act - only one?
http://www.txwd.uscourts.gov/general/judges/biographylist.asp

Looks like a couple were appointed by one of LA's riding buddies.

[sc53]

Whatever judge has the motion for TRO filed today by his attorneys. He can't pass it along, he'll be the one to rule on it. I believe the motion was filed in fed court in Texas?

[Gummee]

Someone pass the popcorn. This is gonna be good.

M

[Germany_chris]

Someone pass the popcorn. This is gonna be good.

M
I really don't think so..this is different than the other threads.

[Gummee]

I really don't think so..this is different than the other threads.

Not necessarily this specific thread, but the whole thing.

Definitely buttered popcorn for this one. Can't do it plain.

:D

M

[MarleyMon]

which ones?
The Honorable Lee Yeakel
http://www.txwd.uscourts.gov/general/judges/biographyview.asp?bID=29

The Honorable Alia Moses
http://www.txwd.uscourts.gov/general/judges/biographyview.asp?bID=12

The Honorable Xavier Rodriguez
http://www.txwd.uscourts.gov/general/judges/biographyview.asp?bID=26

Maybe others, too.

The Western District has several branches or divisions, I'm not sure where the motion was filed, but I'm guessing Austin. I don't know if an Austin judge would therefore rule. Judge Yeakel is in Austin.

Judge Moses bio lists this:
Vice President, American Cancer Society Board, 2002/2003
President, American Cancer Society Board, 2003/2004 and 2004/2005

[slowgoing]

I don't think he got the judge he wanted.

Case dismissed, subject to refiling within 20 days.

[false_Aest]

wow.

i went for a ride.

got back and found this thread reminding me to get off my ass and go for a ride.

you guys are great!

[Louis]

NYT Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/10/sports/lance-armstrong-files-suit-to-block-doping-charges.html?smid=pl-share)

Judge Swiftly Dismisses Armstrong’s Suit, Criticizes His ‘Desire for Publicity’
By JULIET MACUR

Within seven hours of Lance Armstrong filing a lawsuit that sought to block the United States Anti-Doping Agency from punishing him for alleged doping violations, a federal judge in Austin, Tex., struck down the complaint, dealing Armstrong a swift and smarting blow in his own hometown.

Sam Sparks, of United States District Court, chastised Armstrong’s lawyers for submitting an 80-plus page complaint filled with allegations that “were totally irrelevant to Armstrong’s claims.” Sparks said the court was left to presume that the lengthy list of allegations “were included solely to increase media coverage of this case, and to incite public opinion against” the antidoping agency and Travis Tygart, the agency’s chief executive who is also named as a defendant.

“This Court is not inclined to indulge Amstrong’s desire for publicity, self-aggrandizement or vilification of Defendants, by sifting through eighty mostly unnecessary pages in search of the few kernels of factual material relevant to his claims,” Sparks said.

The judge added that Armstrong could refile his case within 20 days, but only if he limits his pleadings to information that is legally relevant to his case.

The lawsuit, which was filed on Monday morning by Armstrong’s lawyers, claimed that the antidoping agency violated Armstrong’s constitutional rights for due process and asked the United States District Court to stop the agency from moving forward with its case against him. It said the antidoping agency and Tygart were out to prosecute a “big fish” so the agency could justify its existence.

“Defendants have presented Mr. Armstrong with an impossible and unlawful choice: either accept a lifetime ban and the loss of his competitive achievements, or endure a rigged process where he would be certain to lose and suffer the same outcome,” the filing said.

Armstrong, who lives in Austin and retired from cycling last year, was charged last month with violations for doping and for his key role in a doping conspiracy while on the United States Postal Service and Discovery Channel teams. He faces a lifetime ban from Olympic sports, the loss of his Tour titles and the forfeiture of the money and awards he won during that time.

He has until Saturday afternoon to either accept or reject a sanction from the agency that his court filing said runs a “kangaroo court.”

If he rejects the sanction, his case will proceed to an independent three-person arbitration panel, which his lawsuit called “an arbitration regime” that the antidoping agency “has populated with arbitrators who predictably find in Usada’s favor.”

That hearing is mandated by the Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act, which includes a due process checklist that delineates athletes’ procedural rights. Any appeals of the arbitrators’ decision would be heard by the Court of Arbitration for Sport, sport’s highest authority, and that decision would be final.

Tygart said Monday that he was not surprised by Armstrong’s aggressive move, considering that other athletes “who attempted to have their own rules” have challenged the antidoping agency before, and failed.

“Just like the other lawsuits that have been filed attempting to circumvent the process, the courts will review it and find similarly, that the process provides full constitutional due process to an accused,” Tygart said. “We look forward to that process ensuing.”

Armstrong’s lawsuit said that the antidoping agency’s arbitration hearing was set up to handle the case of an athlete who failed a drug test, not one of an athlete like him who has been charged with doping in the absence of a positive test.

It also said the International Cycling Union has jurisdiction over the case because the alleged doping violation was discovered by Armstrong’s former teammate, Floyd Landis, and not by the United States Anti-Doping Agency. Landis, who was stripped of the 2006 Tour title for doping, sent an email to USA Cycling in the spring of 2010 about the doping conspiracy on the United States Postal Service squad. The antidoping agency only learned about that doping scandal later.

Armstrong’s lawyers also argue that the antidoping agency — which calls itself quasi-governmental agency — is acting on behalf of the government in dealing with Armstrong’s case, which means it should avail Armstrong of greater constitutional procedural protections.

Those lawyers said that the agency should be deemed a state actor because it receives a bulk of its funding from the government, is responsible for compliance of an international antidoping treaty and worked “entirely in concert” with federal investigators in an investigation of Armstrong that was dropped in February.

[54ny77]

what are the legal standards for proving conspiracy?

[Rueda Tropical]

“This Court is not inclined to indulge Amstrong’s desire for publicity, self-aggrandizement or vilification of Defendants, by sifting through eighty mostly unnecessary pages in search of the few kernels of factual material relevant to his claims,”

ouch!

[Tony T]

Sparks said the court was left to presume that the lengthy list of allegations “were included solely to increase media coverage of this case

And USADA's announcement the day before the TDF wasn't? :eek:

.

[Vientomas]

Humongous legal b!tch slap. Ouch!

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . is hilarious.

BBD

[pdmtong]

time for the OP to change the title to
Lance gets SPANKED....

[laupsi]

I am going against the grain and perhaps out on a limb here; I am thinking LA's legal suit will get thrown out, but only eventually.

okay so I will take the pat on the back. now my second prediction today, "if BW wins the ITT he will not win the TDF nor will anyone on his team". okay so I can live w/1 out of 2. hey in Base Ball it's a great average. :banana:

[JohnHemlock]

All this stuff was choreographed months ago, does anyone really think they drew up an 80 page filing in the last 2 weeks? It's all part of some strategy that was probably drawn up when Landis was extorting Messick 2 years ago for a spot in the ToC, if not prior. It's just part of whatever narrative Lance is trying to disseminate.

Sam Sparks can write some colorful decisions. Also, he has a dim view of attorney hijinks, so I'm not surprised he tossed in a few barbs at Lance.

[R2D2]

Well that attack fizzled out pretty fast.

[majorpat]

The elastic has snapped!

[jbrainin]

So much for the "ball to the wall" tactic.

[dustyrider]

All this stuff was choreographed months ago, does anyone really think they drew up an 80 page filing in the last 2 weeks?

You don't know many soon to graduate college students do you? :)

[ultraman6970]

Well the thing was denied by the court, so wonder what they will do now.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . open his suitcase of, well, whatever he happens to have left.

BBD

[CunegoFan]

Shouldn't the title of this thread be change to "Lance bonks" or "Lance Punctures" or something?

"Lance Pulls an Andy"

[eippo1]

The elastic has snapped!

Hah, good one.

[Fixed]

Sparks what is he about 90years old
His clerk probably writes all his legal opinions for him
Cheers IMHO

[FlashUNC]

That was "The Look" in federal judge form.

[rugbysecondrow]

. . . open his suitcase of, well, whatever he happens to have left.

BBD

Cash

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Federal judges are a hoot. Must be the fact that they have a lifetime appointment. This is the dialogue between plaintiff's counsel and the federal judge while my client was on the witness stand in a civil fraud bench trial last week:

Attorney: Now what did you intend by your statement that [cut off by judge].

Federal judge: Objection, counsel. Her intent is not relevant.

Attorney: Your Honor, this is a fraud case. Her intent is central.

Federal judge: I don't care, it's not coming in!

Luckily, in granting judgment in favor of my client, the judge found plaintiff not credible on the issue of whether any false representation was made to him by my client. Otherwise, we'd probably be looking at a reversal on appeal.

Though I have not seen the Armstrong complaint, I am quite frankly shocked that the judge dismissed the complaint sua sponte without an opportunity to be heard. That is quite remarkable.

[toaster]

Oh, I'm on page 9 already? Must have skipped forward to see if it's gotten nasty yet.

Sorry.

[slowgoing]

Truth is LA hasn't lost his effort to obtain a temporary restraining order quite yet. He can refile within 20 days, and still might try to get it in before the Saturday USADA deadline.

Some judges don't like to upset their entire schedules by having to consider these complicated motions on short notice (these TRO motions go right to the top of the judge's priority list, bypassing the normal briefing and hearing schedules), so if you decide to file, it better be persuasive (and to the point) or you risk alienating the judge.

[r_mutt]

anna breaks it down- again.

http://150wattsofawesome.blogspot.com/2012/07/civil-court-101-with-lance-armstrong.html

[wooly]

anna breaks it down- again.

http://150wattsofawesome.blogspot.com/2012/07/civil-court-101-with-lance-armstrong.html

Interesting read. Referencing Uncle Jam's Army's comment about the reputation of LA's legal team as being strong, I have to wonder what the strategy was behind the submittal. I'm not a lawyer, but you would think that if you are paying for the best legal counsel, you would receive a finely crafted strategy. Any legal minds want to chime in on this? Was there a strategy or was this just a major f*** up on Armstrong's legal team?

[jpw]

It was probably designed to get the extra 20 days. His counsel may see a strategy that benefits from this additional time. There may be moves ongoing elsewhere out of the public domain that need that extra time to fruit.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Seems like it was all done to get USADA in the public conscious, and in a bad light. The "witch hunt" angle. Doubtful the public (e.g. not folks like us) even knew what USADA was, even a week ago. Doubtful that's the case, anymore.

[laupsi]

It was probably designed to get the extra 20 days. His counsel may see a strategy that benefits from this additional time. There may be moves ongoing elsewhere out of the public domain that need that extra time to fruit.

please, this ain't Hollywood

[1centaur]

Thanks for that copy-in - found a new person to follow on Twitter and I'll try her book. Cycling, the stock market AND Lord of the Rings (read the series 5 times between the ages of 13 and 30)!

You can tell a lot about the character of a client from the tone of the lawyering. Vapid bombast speaks volumes.

[Rueda Tropical]

Interesting read. Referencing Uncle Jam's Army's comment about the reputation of LA's legal team as being strong, I have to wonder what the strategy was behind the submittal. I'm not a lawyer, but you would think that if you are paying for the best legal counsel, you would receive a finely crafted strategy. Any legal minds want to chime in on this? Was there a strategy or was this just a major f*** up on Armstrong's legal team?

Sometimes smart lawyers have dumb clients. In the end it's the clients call. They don't always follow the advice of council. Lance must have confused the judicial system with Twitter. Different rules.

[wooly]

Sometimes smart lawyers have dumb clients. In the end it's the clients call. They don't always follow the advice of council. Lance must have confused the judicial system with Twitter. Different rules.

Ha! So true.

[jpw]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ferrari-del-moral-and-marti-banned-for-life-in-us-postal-case

The end game is upon us...finally.

[William]

<Whisper> "Hey, does the ban include Hipsters racing events?"

"No, I don't believe it does."

http://www.singletracks.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/lance-armstrong.jpg



Three hours later....

http://www.chiefmag.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/lance_skidmarxxx.jpg








;):)
William

[Nooch]

lance: "I can't believe all those other guys were doping!! and I was the only clean one of the bunch!! I suppose the doctors didn't approach me because they knew I was the only one strong enough to do it without help... and the only olive oil ferrari offered me was cold pressed, right out of the bottle, to go with my baguette.."

[54ny77]

he has major pr hacks that probably had a good hand in the verbiage (in addition to whatever lance as client wanted in there), likely much to the consternation of the pb&b and w&c attorneys.

(those firms are no joke, by the way.)