Viper

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Why was Viper's wonderful 4th of July ride report deleted? This place is getting real weak!

[Fixed]

He left. The forum
Cheers
I miss his post toO

[biker72]

Guess I missed it.

[AngryScientist]

it would be a shame to see him go. IMO ride reports are the best threads. i love to see where other people ride and share their experiences from the saddle. viper was cool in my book.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

He left. The forum
Cheers
I miss his post toO

He was here yesterday.

[nighthawk]

I enjoyed his posts, too. Didn't catch the July 4th ride report, though. Can someone fill us in on why it was deleted?

[thwart]

He's been bounced by the mods.

Can't say I agree with their decision, but I do agree that they have the right to do so.

I think we need more color here, and he supplied it. In spades.

[nighthawk]

One too many pictures of his pastey legs? :p

[majorpat]

I believe he was banned or left of his own accord a few years back and returned fairly recently. Can't remember the reason for his previous absence. Did'nt know he'd left again, what's the beef?

[Mr. Squirrel]

i do not like snakes. they spread venom you can not see. snakes do not like nuts.

mr. squirrel

[Earl Gray]

He's been bounced by the mods.

Can't say I agree with their decision, but I do agree that they have the right to do so.

I think we need more color here, and he supplied it. In spades.



Again?! Crying ass shame. No clue why but if true, some of these mods need to get thicker skin and figure out that the rest of us don't need their protection.

BTw, he is on the forum as I type.

[Fixed]

Again?! Crying ass shame. No clue why but if true, some of these mods need to get thicker skin and figure out that the rest of us don't need their protection.

BTw, he is on the forum as I type.

It is the old if you are not with us you are against us
Mentality
we need different ideas or it just becomes a circle ...you know what
Cheers IMHO

[sjbraun]

IIRC. the Viper tends to let his passionate nature turn boorish. I didn't see his post yesterday, but I wouldn't be surprised if his his love of the 4th turned into a rant towards some person or group that didn't meet his standards for patriotism. Remember his less than gracious rants about how his Christmas holidays were being inconvenienced and somehow lessened because his employer chose to honor non-Christian holidays that just happen to occur at the same time?

Viper has an interesting mind, but he has a difficult time filtering.

Maybe that's a strength of his, but it can easily make him a d*ck, too.

In respect for the proud tradition of the Internet, the above comments are just uninformed speculation.

-Steve

PS: I enjoyed his ride reports

[Earl Gray]

IIRC. the Viper tends to let his passionate nature turn boorish. I didn't see his post yesterday, but I wouldn't be surprised if his his love of the 4th turned into a rant towards some person or group that didn't meet his standards for patriotism. Remember his less than gracious rants about how his Christmas holidays were being inconvenienced and somehow lessened because his employer chose to honor non-Christian holidays that just happen to occur at the same time?

Viper has an interesting mind, but he has a difficult time filtering.

Maybe that's a strength of his, but it can easily make him a d*ck, too.

In respect for the proud tradition of the Internet, the above comments are just uninformed speculation.

-Steve

PS: I enjoyed his ride reports

Even if true, there should be no reason to prohibit him from being here. Delete specifics if needed but we are all big boys and girls.

[roguedog]

I will miss his ride reports as well. They added a lot of character to the General area.

FYI, his 4th report seemed harmless to me. He'd only uploaded a pictorial report of his ride. No commentary that I saw and nothing offensive in the pix. It had the usual pasty legs, a fishing pole he'd found and the flag.

But perhaps my mind misremembers or I'm not that sensitive..?

[firerescuefin]

He's been bounced by the mods.

Can't say I agree with their decision, but I do agree that they have the right to do so.

I think we need more color here, and he supplied it. In spades.

This^...seems being an antagonistic/disagreeable ass is just fine whereas people that didn't get his style ran to the mods like my 3 year old. Low point for me. Very unfortunate IMO.

Replaced by more threads about what color bar tape should I use....yippee

[FlashUNC]

Folks do know there's an ignore function, right?

If you don't like what someone has to say, just slap 'em on that list. Easy peasy.

[fourflys]

Well, that sucks... I didn't see the post, but really haven't seen Viper post anything worse than others have here... It would be nice to hear why he was banned since we are a community... Mods?

[gdw]

I missed his last post. What was in it that justified his banishment?

[witcombusa]

Folks do know there's an ignore function, right?

If you don't like what someone has to say, just slap 'em on that list. Easy peasy.

If people can't read a viewpoint different than there own without steaming up, it is they who have the problem.

It's a big world out there

[learningtoride]

the STUPID lance armstrong war is what got him banned- we all know it- call it for what it is-
he got into a personal fight with a mod or two over the lance armstrong topic and then was banned-
he emailed me his ride reports as he always has- it contained NOTHING NOTHING AND NOTHING OFFENSIVE TO ANYONE- but because the gods of the forum have decided he cannot post here anymore and he should just "START A BLOG" we can no longer enjoy his threads- even something as simple as a ride report- I could personally care less about LA or his rise and fall- but just because my opinion differs and yea- he may have been a little more overly expressive in his passions and got a little personal-i HATE that thread- it was all kinds of grown ups acting ridiculous over a cyclist none of us know personally- but whatever- whats done is done- thats the second friend lost on the forum- this used to be my learn and be happy place-
its been alot more pretentious lately- it makes me sad- some of you here have seen me thru my darkest days-
now i only visit occassionally and rarely speak-
there are some real creepy guys on here lol and some real real good people- but banning people-
i hope he didnt contribute any donations lol-

[krhea]

if people can't read a viewpoint different than there own without steaming up, it is they who have the problem.

It's a big world out there

+1

[William]

Wow, I'm gone for a while and all heck breaks loose.

http://www.emoticonsfree.org/wp-content/uploads/fighting0077.gif

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/guns/banana-gun.gif

http://www.smileys.me.uk/smileys/Banana/exercise.gif







William

[54ny77]

i enjoyed his ride reports.

some of them were very personal and memorable.

not everyone gets along, but everyone's entitled to different opinions.

too bad if he's banned.

[corky]

when people are banned from a forum, its no longer a forum but an extension of the mods views.

If the language was profane and there were personal insults well those can be moderated out, thats what they're for after all....

Big Brother is alive and well..

[jlwdm]

He was banned from the Serotta Forum and Paceline allowed him to come back. Don't know what happened, but the moderators were giving him a chance.

Jeff

[Earl Gray]

......

Replaced by more threads about what color bar tape should I use....yippee

You can debate the Color as long as you agree on the brand.

[Fixed]

The only thing I can think of there may have Been some p.m. 's That we. Don't know about
Maybe
Cheers
Viper

[54ny77]

There's a lot Phillip Morris doesn't want us to know.

:p

The only thing I can think of there may have Been some p.m. 's That we. Don't know about
Maybe
Cheers
Viper

[velotel]

All that I've read so far is conjecture; seems to me some explanation would be forthcoming from someone responsible if in fact he was banned or if he just parted ways voluntarily and thus all the conjecture could end. At that point the opinions on the facts that passed could come on line, which maybe might make those forest fires in the west look cool in comparison. Didn't get a chance to read the post myself though as it happened today I thought of giving it a look and discovered it didn't exist anymore. Started to think my memory was really going out! Then thankfully saw this post; I'm reassured; my memory hasn't taken a turn for the worse.

[William]

He was banned from the Serotta Forum and Paceline allowed him to come back. Don't know what happened, but the moderators were giving him a chance.

Jeff


Friends, it's all psychological. You yell barracuda, everybody says, "Huh? What?" You yell Viper, we've got a panic on our hands on the Fourth of July. Moderating is not like going down the pond chasin' bluegills and tommycods. There is a catch and release program going on. Lots of chances to stay off the hook and bring back the tourists, post all your threads and keep em on a readn' basis. But it's not gonna be pleasant. It's a tough mostly thankless job. There's just too many "captains" on this forum. and to do the job they get $00,000 for themselves. For that they have to mind the head, the tail, the whole damn thing.

So Fellows, let's be reasonable, huh? This is not the time or the place to perform some kind of a half-assed autopsy on a forum action we know little about... And I'm not going to stand here and see that last thread cut open and see people's guesses spill out all over the dock.


Pump it out Chief!




William

[gdw]

Rumor has it that Lance was responsible for Viper's exile.

[learningtoride]

lol man i really HATE that damn LA lol

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

If people can't read a viewpoint different than there own without steaming up, it is they who have the problem.

It's a big world out there

'Zactly.

[Hank Scorpio]

... And I'm not going to stand here and see that last thread cut open and see people's guesses spill out all over the dock.


Pump it out Chief!




William

There is nothing to see here

[SamIAm]

All that I've read so far is conjecture; seems to me some explanation would be forthcoming from someone responsible if in fact he was banned or if he just parted ways voluntarily and thus all the conjecture could end.

Well I can help here:

I can confirm he was banned.

[velotel]

Et voilà, there we have it; he was banned.

[Jaq]

Went for a ride last week with a forum member. Got to talking about this and that and Viper's name came up almost right away. We both agreed we couldn't figure him out, but he added some really interesting color.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

[Bruce K]

Banning a member is not something we take frivolously. In the case of Viper, it was a particular difficult decision because he is both entertains and polarizing at the same time. Many of you may remember that Viper has been banned twice before over personal attacks, divisive comments, and a lack of willingness to modify his behavior/rhetoric to avoid these situations.

With the change to The Paceline, we, the moderators, decided to give Viper one last chance. We explained our expectations for behavior if he were to be allowed to return. While it went well for a while, the old Viper returned. We had several conversations with Viper asking him to consider his postings carefully and were rewarded with the "Cancer Jesus" thread. That did it for several members who contacted us and we sadly had to terminate Viper's membership for a third and final time.

As for the suggestion of a blog, that came from Viper as a way to be able to say what he wanted, how he wanted, and to or about who he wanted. We agreed with his idea as a way to play by his own rules.

This decision had nothing to do with Viper's relationships with any particular moderator but his attitude towards the moderator group did not help the overall climate of the forum. Again, this was not a decision made in haste or lightly but at this time we are moving on with the forum.

[Bruce K]

Hopefully that helps.

BK

[Mr. Squirrel]

Rumor has it that Lance was responsible for Viper's exile.

dear mr. consonants,

that then, is how the ball bounces, no?

mr. squirrel

[54ny77]

"Honey, I got banned from a bike forum."

"Oh, that's too bad dear. Can you help me dry the dishes?"

http://www.gofundraise.com.au/Upload/105135/images/wifeDM1904_468x550.jpg

[FlashUNC]

If people can't read a viewpoint different than there own without steaming up, it is they who have the problem.

It's a big world out there

Totally agree, but even failing that, was just pointing out there's a way for members to tune out anyone they don't particularly care to read.

[pedlpwrd]

I had read the threads that led to this decision and think the guy, although I've never had any interaction with him personally, really blew his lid over the whole Lance Armstrong topic. The refering to the Mods with "the New Englanders" bashing and getting so very heated about the topic was a doomed from the start situation. Personally I think, in regards to other forum members being "bothered" by his posts, hit the ignore button, everyone who is a "member" should have their say no matter how it makes a few individuals feel. I am sure that the jobs the mods have is hard enough to delegate then having to stop and babysit one particular poster. If this was a third strike, than obviously this forumite knew his ranting wouldn't be tolerated when comming back into the forum in the first place.
Now, if banning people from the community is the answer to handling these types of situations, I think we will see it as a trend and it will be the forum who loses out in the long run. You start taking away the "bad kids" and soon theres no stimulation in debate. I've had falling outs with a couple of forum members. One has made it clear they down right hate me. I don't run to the mods and cry about it. I leave that person be and move on. As I am sure those on the opposition did as well. I am not a supporter of banning on a permanent level. That's ridiculous. But the powers that be have spoken and it's their job to make sure that people who get too obsessive or agressive are kept in check.

[beeatnik]

I sensed a passive aggressive hostility in most of his posts. IMO, there was a thinly-veiled desire to instigate and advance a socio-political agenda. It almost appeared as if he believed himself to be too clever for the mods. A game of cat and mouse? Did he think he could get a vulgar personalized plate by the watchful eyes of the DMV?

[bcm119]

This place is turning into one big circle jerk of squirrels and bees and other G rated creatures.

[velotel]

That made me laugh, great photo and line. Still laughing. Nothing like putting things in perspective.

Also thanks to the mods for putting out simply and clearly what happened. I didn't have any dog in that race at all but still nice to just see a bit of transparency (a word the french love to go on about).

[learningtoride]

I sensed a passive aggressive hostility in most of his posts. IMO, there was a thin-veiled desire to instigate and advance a socio-political agenda. It almost appeared as if he believed himself to be too clever for the mods. A game of cat and mouse? Did he think he could get a vulgar personalized plate by the watchful eyes of the DMV?

I THINK THAT SINCE HE IS NOT ALLOWED TO BE HERE TO DEFEND HIS ACTIONS OR HIS "DESIRES"
ONE SHOULDNT SPECULATE WHAT ONE DOESNT KNOW OF. :mad:

[beeatnik]

I THINK THAT SINCE HE IS NOT ALLOWED TO BE HERE TO DEFEND HIS ACTIONS OR HIS "DESIRES"
ONE SHOULDNT SPECULATE WHAT ONE DOESNT KNOW OF. :mad:

I don't need to speculate. He ranted against the New York Times and Yanks.

[MarleyMon]

I THINK THAT SINCE HE IS NOT ALLOWED TO BE HERE TO DEFEND HIS ACTIONS OR HIS "DESIRES"
ONE SHOULDNT SPECULATE WHAT ONE DOESNT KNOW OF. :mad:
Maybe 73Camaro_Dude or 1 of his other stand-ins will speak for him.

[azrider]

I will not miss all the Star Trek references.

Am I the only one who's never watched a single second of that show?

[nighthawk]

This is gonna get ugly. I'm outta here.

http://deephousepage.com/smilies/bananalama.gif

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

I will not miss all the Star Trek references.

Am I the only one who's never watched a single second of that show?

It was references to Star Wars.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

This is gonna get ugly. I'm outta here.

http://deephousepage.com/smilies/bananalama.gif

nighthawk, that smiley rivals one of William's. Sweet.

[67-59]

It was references to Star Wars.

There's a difference?

[DRietz]

There's a difference?


:eek:

[learningtoride]

wow... just... wow. lol rob- that IS like a William worthy smiley-
and yes... there IS a diffrence between star wars and star trek-
geez :p

[nighthawk]

nighthawk, that smiley rivals one of William's. Sweet.

I rode by a llama farm this morning, so when I was looking for an appropriate emoticon, this one really spoke to me. :)

[learningtoride]

aaand- just for the record- I'm a Yankees fan-
I love NYC and am proud to be a native-
AND I CANT STAND LANCE ARMSTRONG OR HIS DRAMAS
but-
I am still happy to call "Viper" friend-
and am glad I can continue to do so offline. :banana:

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

I rode by a llama farm this morning, so when I was looking for an appropriate emoticon, this one really spoke to me. :)

The trip is the banana throwing the horns.

[azrider]

It was references to Star Wars.



riiiiiight.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=107315&highlight=Star+Trek

[oliver1850]

.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

riiiiiight.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=107315&highlight=Star+Trek

A 3 month old post? Really? Seemed like he referenced Darth Vader and his relationship with Luke quite often (maybe more often than most cared for). I could troll his previous posts to prove it. Not really that important. A cool, passionate dude with a unique take on things, that will be missed. Here, at least.

[beeatnik]

Enjoyed the links to the lowenbrau commercials

Didn't enjoy the crotch shots.

Neutral on the Sci-Fi shiz.

[firerescuefin]

Enjoyed the links to the lowenbrau commercials

Didn't enjoy the crotch shots.

Neutral on the Sci-Fi shiz.

Maybe you didn't enjoy...because you kind of did enjoy:help:

[beeatnik]

They were bad angles.

[nighthawk]

So.. if Viper had only taken his crotch shots at a better angle... he'd still be here? I'm gonna go ahead and say, one crotch shot, regardless of angle, is one too many. ;)

I also think he was a little bit harsh on my friend "beer"... but I don't let personal differences weigh me down too much.

Can anyone point me to the Lance thread so I can put this all in perspective? I've been extremely busy and haven't been reading too many threads lately.

Oh, and this is for you, Oliver (but I'm pretty sure this is an alpaca):

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-AKIw91pD1bs/SqbWpm8mNzI/AAAAAAAAAas/zpt2sIhkg_o/s640/DSC03332.JPG

[54ny77]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gZ0x8AVaBI

:p

[nighthawk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gZ0x8AVaBI

:p

Thanks for that, I had a good laugh. Also followed a link to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EaJMr26F5w

[oliver1850]

So.. if Viper had only taken his crotch shots at a better angle... he'd still be here? I'm gonna go ahead and say, one crotch shot, regardless of angle, is one too many. ;)

I also think he was a little bit harsh on my friend "beer"... but I don't let personal differences weigh me down too much.

Can anyone point me to the Lance thread so I can put this all in perspective? I've been extremely busy and haven't been reading too many threads lately.

Oh, and this is for you, Oliver (but I'm pretty sure this is an alpaca):

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-AKIw91pD1bs/SqbWpm8mNzI/AAAAAAAAAas/zpt2sIhkg_o/s640/DSC03332.JPG

Mine were alpacas too, no llamas in the neighborhood. That guy is rocking the 'do.

[rugbysecondrow]

There are mods, apparently there are owners but there are also a long list of contributors who donated money to the Paceline cause. The very public and communal character of this thing of ours seems to set certain expectations. It was easy to blame Serotta before because the mods were looking out for the brand, but what are they looking out for now? 5 pages and nobody really knows what the hell happened or why. If it were that eggregious, then I would think the community as a whole would know. Not the case. Seems weak to me, banning and deletion?

The mods have a thankless job, but sometimes they bring on trouble themselves. I haven't read anything from Mr. Viper that seems banned worthy. Damn shame as the forum is a lesser place now.

Banning a member is not something we take frivolously. In the case of Viper, it was a particular difficult decision because he is both entertains and polarizing at the same time. Many of you may remember that Viper has been banned twice before over personal attacks, divisive comments, and a lack of willingness to modify his behavior/rhetoric to avoid these situations.

With the change to The Paceline, we, the moderators, decided to give Viper one last chance. We explained our expectations for behavior if he were to be allowed to return. While it went well for a while, the old Viper returned. We had several conversations with Viper asking him to consider his postings carefully and were rewarded with the "Cancer Jesus" thread. That did it for several members who contacted us and we sadly had to terminate Viper's membership for a third and final time.

As for the suggestion of a blog, that came from Viper as a way to be able to say what he wanted, how he wanted, and to or about who he wanted. We agreed with his idea as a way to play by his own rules.

This decision had nothing to do with Viper's relationships with any particular moderator but his attitude towards the moderator group did not help the overall climate of the forum. Again, this was not a decision made in haste or lightly but at this time we are moving on with the forum.

[Earl Gray]

I sensed a passive aggressive hostility in most of his posts. IMO, there was a thinly-veiled desire to instigate and advance a socio-political agenda. It almost appeared as if he believed himself to be too clever for the mods. A game of cat and mouse? Did he think he could get a vulgar personalized plate by the watchful eyes of the DMV?

I think you have mistaken him for me.:banana:

[rphetteplace]

I would sometimes skim Vipers post...too long for me. I will say that he is about 1,000x more palatable than Swoop ever was.

[learningtoride]

There are mods, apparently there are owners but there are also a long list of contributors who donated money to the Paceline cause. The very public and communal character of this thing of ours seems to set certain expectations. It was easy to blame Serotta before because the mods were looking out for the brand, but what are they looking out for now? 5 pages and nobody really knows what the hell happened or why. If it were that eggregious, then I would think the community as a whole would know. Not the case. Seems weak to me, banning and deletion?

The mods have a thankless job, but sometimes they bring on trouble themselves. I haven't read anything from Mr. Viper that seems banned worthy. Damn shame as the forum is a lesser place now.

Thank you on behalf of Keith aka Viper-
I thought it intresting as I know the story from his point and was aware what was brewing prior as Id been following the horrid LA thread that got him (in my opinion only) overly worked up- but I see both sides and understand them both- I just find it sad that those who enjoyed his imput are anti- 'THE BANN' and those who were less entertained aren't as much- I did state earlier that I'd hoped he hadnt made donations lol-
He had a good point in our earlier conversation- that why was his fourth of july thread pulled and not all of his threads- my speculation is that he had been informed of the mods decision prior to his posting his ride report yesterday-
The 'Viper' thread sure reads alot like every sram vs campy and LA thread Ive ever read wether it had been on the Serotta forum or the Paceline one-
I am not a fan that there was a permanent bann on ANYONE and am finding that alot of the people I've come to be fond of are leaving the forum- I fear I am seeing a trend-
if the goal of the forum members is to NOT be a diverse forum with mixed views and opinions and personalities and to have only politically correct types- they may be well on their way- I may not add much here- as I am very new to the sport- but I have grown here and find that I may be searching for something else if "my" types (overly loud lol) arent welcome- or wanted-
I did tell Viper that there was an intrest and thread on topic to his bann- he stated that he clearly doesnt want trouble brewed up for others -
he thanks those that care and wishes well those that dont
Just thought I'd jump in and tell you all-
I am aware and have seen the goings between and wish things werent ending this way but it is what it is as the overplayed statement goes-
so - with that- ill leave well enough alone now- otherwise the instinct to protect those you call friend gets the better of me- and clearly there are those here who cast the first stone in any topic-
so- happy riding all- the weekends almost here!

[rice rocket]

Having been through the rise and fall of many forums myself, the lifeblood of a thriving forum is it's membership. And it's certainly not the quantity but the quality of it's posters. Every run of the mill forum can have posters that recommend bike frames, troubleshoot shifting problems, etc. It's not necessarily agreeing on all facets in life, it's creating stimulating conversation amidst the dullness that's ever so present in your regular internet forum.


Viper was a quality poster. When a couple dozen members can say, "oh, remember when Viper was on the board and we had good, well reasoned banter", you know you've truly lost something. It's really a shame he's gone (again).

[Elefantino]

Viper took the USADA immunity deal.

He will be back in six months.

[thwart]

Viper took the USADA immunity deal.

He will be back in six months.

Cool. Somehow I knew justice would be served. :D

I'm counting down the days.

[jlwdm]

Friends, it's all psychological. You yell barracuda, everybody says, "Huh? What?" You yell Viper, we've got a panic on our hands on the Fourth of July. Moderating is not like going down the pond chasin' bluegills and tommycods. There is a catch and release program going on. Lots of chances to stay off the hook and bring back the tourists, post all your threads and keep em on a readn' basis. But it's not gonna be pleasant. It's a tough mostly thankless job. There's just too many "captains" on this forum. and to do the job they get $00,000 for themselves. For that they have to mind the head, the tail, the whole damn thing.

So Fellows, let's be reasonable, huh? This is not the time or the place to perform some kind of a half-assed autopsy on a forum action we know little about... And I'm not going to stand here and see that last thread cut open and see people's guesses spill out all over the dock.


Pump it out Chief!




William


?????

Jeff

[1centaur]

Look at Bruce's reasons carefully and you see the meat of the issue: Viper was previously banned for personal attacks and divisive comments, and unwillingness to adjust his posting style (my translation) to avoid those situations.

Boiling it down further, personal attacks and divisive comments.

Why are personal attacks against the rules? Because they drive people away from the forum and don't bring people in. Divisive comments can be seen in the same light, except "divisive" implies that opinions were divided, though perhaps the mods really mean that the comments were pushing the forum tone away from camaraderie to something more fractured that might lead to hurt feelings and driving people away. That's the slippery slope that this thread is negotiating.

In the end, the mods are acting like it's their job to create a welcoming place more than a place of maximum intellectual stimulation. That sounds to me like a winning decision, despite the loss of some of that stimulation. Go too far and it's all pablum and people are too bored to stay. Don't go far enough and people leave because they associate the place with unpleasant feelings. Who among us can be sure of the right balance, as opposed to sure of our own personal balance?

I liked Viper's posts at times because I sensed a burning intellect, and that's pretty rare anywhere. I also ignored a lot of his posts because they took too much effort to follow. I would not have banned him from the forum of my mind, and I would not have been eager to please the back door whiners either, but we're not the mods and we have to let them make this place what they will. They seem reasonable and thus will absorb the positive comments on Viper in this thread and make it part of their thinking in the future. That's all we can expect.

[tannhauser]

Look at Bruce's reasons carefully and you see the meat of the issue: Viper was previously banned for personal attacks and divisive comments, and unwillingness to adjust his posting style (my translation) to avoid those situations.

Boiling it down further, personal attacks and divisive comments.

Why are personal attacks against the rules? Because they drive people away from the forum and don't bring people in. Divisive comments can be seen in the same light, except "divisive" implies that opinions were divided, though perhaps the mods really mean that the comments were pushing the forum tone away from camaraderie to something more fractured that might lead to hurt feelings and driving people away. That's the slippery slope that this thread is negotiating.

In the end, the mods are acting like it's their job to create a welcoming place more than a place of maximum intellectual stimulation. That sounds to me like a winning decision, despite the loss of some of that stimulation. Go too far and it's all pablum and people are too bored to stay. Don't go far enough and people leave because they associate the place with unpleasant feelings. Who among us can be sure of the right balance, as opposed to sure of our own personal balance?

I liked Viper's posts at times because I sensed a burning intellect, and that's pretty rare anywhere. I also ignored a lot of his posts because they took too much effort to follow. I would not have banned him from the forum of my mind, and I would not have been eager to please the back door whiners either, but we're not the mods and we have to let them make this place what they will. They seem reasonable and thus will absorb the positive comments on Viper in this thread and make it part of their thinking in the future. That's all we can expect.

Man all of your posts have a setup, hypothesis, well-argued position, and conclusion -- unless you're pissed.

[Climb01742]

i don't have a clue what led to viper being banned, but i do know the moderators. they are good people. i doubt they took their action lightly.

it is reasonable to ask why they did what they did. the community deserves an explanation, i believe. but i also believe this: the mods deserve some slack too. only they and viper know the full story. the mods aren't bad people. far from it. if the full story were known, who knows for sure which side you'd come down on?

i doubt viper deserves recrimination. based on knowing the mods, i'd bet dollars to donuts they don't either.

[fourflys]

I knew there was a reason I never read political or LA posts... I enjoyed Viper's ride reports but respect the Mod's decisions and thank Keith for his post on the reasons...

[fourflys]

i don't have a clue what led to viper being banned, but i do know the moderators. They are good people. I doubt they took their action lightly.

It is reasonable to ask why they did what they did. The community deserves an explanation, i believe. But i also believe this: The mods deserve some slack too. Only they and viper know the full story. The mods aren't bad people. Far from it. If the full story were known, who knows for sure which side you'd come down on?

I doubt viper deserves recrimination. Based on knowing the mods, i'd bet dollars to donuts they don't either.

+1!

[tannhauser]

Viper viper viper

[indyrider]

Viper viper viper

meh

[Steve in SLO]

Viper viper viper

meh

Viper is the new LA!

[William]

I have met, had face to face discussions, broken bread, shared beers, and ridden with every person involved in this story. They are all good people. Sometimes good people have differences. It's too bad those differences couldn't get worked out but sometimes good people can't agree or won't compromise. That is the story of life.





William

[rugbysecondrow]

I have met, had face to face discussions, broken bread, shared beers, and ridden with every person involved in this story. They are all good people. Sometimes good people have differences. It's too bad those differences couldn't get worked out but sometimes good people can't agree or won't compromise. That is the story of life.





William

I get what you are saying, but we aren't roommates, we arent business partners, it is an Internet forum. How much compromise is necessary for independent people to post on a message board?

[rice rocket]

I get what you are saying, but we aren't roommates, we arent business partners, it is an Internet forum. How much compromise is necessary for independent people to post on a message board?

Srsly pplz.

HTFU.

[pdmtong]

six pages...really?

place has rules. if you wanna play, play by the rules.

if you dont play by the rules, this isnt the place for you.

[Earl Gray]

I get what you are saying, but we aren't roommates, we arent business partners, it is an Internet forum. How much compromise is necessary for independent people to post on a message board?

+1
Sometimes this place has the feel of a church group and not in a good way.

I can't imagine whining to the mods because of what someone posted.

[rugbysecondrow]

six pages...really?

place has rules. if you wanna play, play by the rules.

if you dont play by the rules, this isnt the place for you.

I guess that is it, what rule was broken? Just because some darlings got their panties twisted and complained? Tattling on an Internet forum? Who knew?

[pdmtong]

I guess that is it, what rule was broken? Just because some darlings got their panties twisted and complained? Tattling on an Internet forum? Who knew?

the "rules" were explained by bruce a few pages back...

one thing I got out of this is my posts are all pretty vanilla...nothing controversial out of me...looks like I have some work to do in order to live on the edge.

[rugbysecondrow]

the "rules" were explained by bruce a few pages back...

one thing I got out of this is my posts are all pretty vanilla...nothing controversial out of me...looks like I have some work to do in order to live on the edge.

I reread what Bruce wrote, didn't see rule breaking in there.

Frankly, it doesn't matter. The mods are not only the bouncer now butbthey own the club, they will do what they want. I used to think this was a special place but it isnt. What it has are some special people, fewer now than it used too. Damn shame for sure but it is only an Internet forum after all.

[pdmtong]

I reread what Bruce wrote, didn't see rule breaking in there.

Frankly, it doesn't matter. The mods are not only the bouncer now butbthey own the club, they will do what they want. I used to think this was a special place but it isnt. What it has are some special people, fewer now than it used too. Damn shame for sure but it is only an Internet forum after all.

you, as I, have been here just long enough to see the phases...pre-split, post split, independent. the vibe, content and particpants certainly have changed. similar has happened across the hall. what i get out of being here is different than it was. I just reset my expectations and perspective ... it's just an internet forum...in the end though, hopefully I can give a little more than what I get.

[wooly]

Wow this thread is exhausting. Just like most of Vipers.

[fourflys]

six pages...really?

place has rules. if you wanna play, play by the rules.

if you dont play by the rules, this isnt the place for you.

Exactly... No one says you have to hang around if you don't like it...

[monkeybanana86]

man i hope you guys will mourn my leave to this level as well when i go! JK :)

I don't know enough to be critical of the decisions from above but I will miss the ride reports and cute cop, batman, or whatever costumes.

[velotel]

Jeez, I must not be very observant, had no idea there were all these conflicts roiling about. I just read posts that strike me as potentially interesting, ignore the rest, ignore those that turned out not to interest me. Some of Viper's ride posts I enjoyed, others were just a pass, if he or others had rants, no skin off my butt.

I also much appreciate the free time and energy put in by the moderators. That said, I can also imagine that falling into the trap of starting to over-manage things could be easy. A little controversy can be enlivening. The challenge I suppose is knowing when the controversy starts to get out of hand in terms of the forum's objective, which I assume (and is certainly why I'm here) is to share the joys, agonies, and learning riding a road bike can provide.

Banning seems a bit harsh but then, just as others have said, I don't know the stories behind the decision. But if I were asked for my opinion, I'd most likely say let people ban in their own heads what they don't want to read/participate in.

Thus from my rather limited perspective on this subject, seems to me to be in the famous words, much ado about nothing, on a lot of people's part.

[oldman]

Banning seems a bit harsh but then, just as others have said, I don't know the stories behind the decision. But if I were asked for my opinion, I'd most likely say let people ban in their own heads what they don't want to read/participate in.

Thus from my rather limited perspective on this subject, seems to me to be in the famous words, much ado about nothing, on a lot of people's part.

I'll miss the ride reports.

Anyone know where to find them?

[Fixed]

Seven pages man viper would be proud , but we need pics
Cheers :)

[Climb01742]

again, i have no idea what led to the banning.

but a point that hasn't been raised: there are two ways to communicate on the forum. public posts. and private messages.

to accurately judge this situation i think you'd need to know all the communications that occurred.

public differences of opinion are one thing. crossing the line in PMs are another. my guess is this may have played a role in this situation.

without knowing the public and private communications, judging the actions of both viper and the mods accurately is beyond our abilities. as william said, maybe this is good people unable to agree on a course forward...without right and wrong?

[fuzzalow]

I can't fault to Mods for this situation as IMO they are mostly hands-off and let most threads run their course. Too bad that slightly more self control from a forumite was not exercised instead of forcing a showdown, foolishly, that could only end badly for one.

Over time, I had read Viper's posts, then skimmed them, then ignored them. The web is big enough to accomodate the addition of yet another meandering, self indulgent narrative with nary a ripple. As easy enough for me to ignore as it was for others to regale in.

Having more strangely and strongly unique personalities to this forum makes it a better place. The concessions to post here are vanishingly small: civility and a relevance to bikes & cycling somewhere in the ballpark. Those ride reports were a pretext for rambling ruminations. Maybe less pretension as ersatz Hunter S Thompson and something more derivative of Maynard Hershon would have been less onerous to a bike forum.

[William]

again, i have no idea what led to the banning.

but a point that hasn't been raised: there are two ways to communicate on the forum. public posts. and private messages.

to accurately judge this situation i think you'd need to know all the communications that occurred.

public differences of opinion are one thing. crossing the line in PMs are another. my guess is this may have played a role in this situation.

without knowing the public and private communications, judging the actions of both viper and the mods accurately is beyond our abilities. as william said, maybe this is good people unable to agree on a course forward...without right and wrong?


Climb, there is a possible back story to this that we aren't privy too. We all know there were previous bans. I won't relate what I've heard because I didn't hear it from all parties involved. But if true, it's something that originally happened behind the scenes (not just against the mods) that resulted in the previous ban. If things started going down that road again, then that's likely why the ban happened this time around.

Many folks are clamoring for an explanation as to why a ban happened, but it could just be that it's none of our business due to the fact that the cause happened by private actions that again, happened behind the scene.

I'm sorry things turned out the way they did.

I'm out.





William

[rwsaunders]

I can't fault to Mods for this situation as IMO they are mostly hands-off and let most threads run their course. Too bad that slightly more self control from a forumite was not exercised instead of forcing a showdown, foolishly, that could only end badly for one.

Over time, I had read Viper's posts, then skimmed them, then ignored them. The web is big enough to accomodate the addition of yet another meandering, self indulgent narrative with nary a ripple. As easy enough for me to ignore as it was for others to regale in.

Having more strangely and strongly unique personalities to this forum makes it a better place. The concessions to post here are vanishingly small: civility and a relevance to bikes & cycling somewhere in the ballpark. Those ride reports were a pretext for rambling ruminations. Maybe less pretension as ersatz Hunter S Thompson and something more derivative of Maynard Hershon would have been less onerous to a bike forum.

Well stated.

[redir]

I'm not sure I've ever read a viper post good or bad, just don't remember ... But anyway can't he just create an alt sock puppet and come back in. viper2 maybe? :no:

[bikerboy337]

i can't fault to mods for this situation as imo they are mostly hands-off and let most threads run their course. Too bad that slightly more self control from a forumite was not exercised instead of forcing a showdown, foolishly, that could only end badly for one.

Over time, i had read viper's posts, then skimmed them, then ignored them. The web is big enough to accomodate the addition of yet another meandering, self indulgent narrative with nary a ripple. As easy enough for me to ignore as it was for others to regale in.

Having more strangely and strongly unique personalities to this forum makes it a better place. The concessions to post here are vanishingly small: Civility and a relevance to bikes & cycling somewhere in the ballpark. Those ride reports were a pretext for rambling ruminations. Maybe less pretension as ersatz hunter s thompson and something more derivative of maynard hershon would have been less onerous to a bike forum.


+1

[texbike]

Can't say that I'm much of a U2 fan (after the 1st couple albums) or really care about Jaws (though I did have a toy plastic shark and an infatuation with the critters as a kid because of the movie), but I really like Viper and most of his posts. Many of his posts had a certain poetry and wit that added color and cultural reference to the discussions at hand. I would go as far as to say that a number of the threads that he started approached art. As with many great artists, sometimes their work is rarely understood by the general public or even offends the senses of others.

After 7 pages of responses, it's apparent that only a very small number of members are actually finding Viper's posts offensive. I understand the role of the admins and really appreciate the work that they do (and REALLY appreciate Bruce's explanation). However, would it hurt to put the issue to a forum vote since the forum is now mostly member funded?

Texbike

[Fixed]

Fixed signs out
Cheers

[BCS]

it's apparent that only a very small number of members who took the time to post something here are actually finding Viper's posts offensive.
Texbike

FTFY

It's a really big forum. The overwhelming majority don't care one way or another

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . and was given several opportunities to return. Unfortunately those did not work out for reasons that go beyond what you read everyday on the forum. The general discussion areas are not all of what goes on here. Out of respect for everyone's privacy, including ours as mods, that's all I'm going to say.

We do the best we can to make this place welcoming to all and kept civil and creative. Unfortunately given our potential audience--the whole planet--we're never going to succeed to the satisfaction of everyone. But we will continue to try and we appreciate your understanding.

BBD