View Full Version : OT: The Perfect Car
To my mind, the perfect car would be a diesel/hybrid awd manual wagon. I think Volvo now makes this car (the V60), but it's absurdly expensive, and will never come to North America. Does any other manufacturer make, or plan to make, such a vehicle, and will it come to NA? Any other suggestions for the perfect car?
It's bizarre to me that Audi makes an AWD wagon, but not a manual diesel. VW makes a manual diesel wagon, but not AWD. They are missing the sweet spot.
nahtnoj
06-25-2012, 03:44 PM
You and six other people in the CONUS.
I'm one of them. The diesel torque would probably do well in overcoming AWD weight and reluctance to launch.
the prefect car is a bike- no pollution, lots of fun and low maintenance.
CaliFly
06-25-2012, 03:45 PM
To my mind, the perfect car would be a diesel/hybrid awd manual wagon. I think Volvo now makes this car (the V60), but it's absurdly expensive, and will never come to North America. Does any other manufacturer make, or plan to make, such a vehicle, and will it come to NA? Any other suggestions for the perfect car?
It's bizarre to me that Audi makes an AWD wagon, but not a manual diesel. VW makes a manual diesel wagon, but not AWD. They are missing the sweet spot.
I'm right there with you. Next best thing for me is a Subaru Outback. :)
rugbysecondrow
06-25-2012, 03:48 PM
the prefect car is a bike- no pollution, lots of fun and low maintenance.
Just like the perfect house is a tent, so lets all live in tents. :rolleyes:
I am looking at a 2012 Subaru WRX, gas rather than diesel, but hatchback, 4 door, AWD, air bags, peppy, manual, roomy enough back seat, fun as hell to drive.
christian
06-25-2012, 03:49 PM
You and six other people in the CONUS.
There you go. And the others already bought TSX wagons. Well, somebody bought those six TSX wagons...
Just like the perfect house is a tent, so lets all live in tents. :rolleyes:
I am looking at a 2012 Subaru WRX, gas rather than diesel, but hatchback, 4 door, AWD, air bags, peppy, manual, roomy enough back seat, fun as hell to drive.
Yes, but gets about 25 mpg. The less peppy Impreza wagon now gets over 35 mpg, which is impressive. With the technology out there now, I just don't see myself buying a car that gets less than 40 mpg highway.
Fixed
06-25-2012, 04:00 PM
Tesla
MattTuck
06-25-2012, 04:00 PM
What is perfect for you may not be perfect for someone else.
Everyone uses their car differently and has different tastes and preferences.
If I didn't bike, and prefer to keep my bike inside (out of the rain), I'm not sure that I'd drive a wagon. But I do, so for me, the outback is as close to the perfect car as I've gotten.
Likewise, if I didn't live in an area that gets lots of snow in the winter, I'd view 'all wheel drive' not as a feature, but a waste of gas.
Karin Kirk
06-25-2012, 04:01 PM
Sounds like a great car to me!
Sign me up for a blue one please. :)
robin3mj
06-25-2012, 04:01 PM
The Jetta, while not AWD is relatively beastly in the snow. Nice heavy car with lots of weight on the front wheels. I've been able to drive in 8" of fresh snow without problems.
AWD would be nice, but even with a manual, it plays havoc on your gas mileage, based on my experience with an Impreza.
torquer
06-25-2012, 04:03 PM
Diesel? check
Wagon? check
Manual? That'll work, but dual-clutch trannies let you row, while giving your left foot a break in heavy traffic with no sacrifice in performance (or mileage.)
Hybrid? Really? I'd rather not tote that battery around (or need to replace it.)
AWD? I never developed a taste for that particular flavor of KoolAid either; added weight & complication, with reduced straight-line performance and mileage. I get 90% of the benefit with snow tires all around (and the benefits of summer tires the rest of the year.)
So the Jetta fits my needs (and the A-3, but that's above my pay grade at the moment.) BMW's X-1 looks nice, but they know their market, and they aren't buying oil burners.
54ny77
06-25-2012, 04:03 PM
http://www.fugly.com/media/IMAGES/Random/chia_car_watering_can.jpg
67-59
06-25-2012, 04:03 PM
With systems like traction control, stability control, brake force distribution, etc, I think AWD is unecessary. If you live in a snowy area, just get a FWD car and put good snow tires on in the winter, and you'll be fine.
1989 honda civic hatchback, 5spd. everything else is just pushing wind. the perfect car would be something like the VW from the 70's, cheap to own, easy to fix, gets 30+ mpg. manufactuers are interested in making cars to difficult to fix. engine management systems that are overly complicated. that and i 'm old. replaced the brake pads on a 79 Datsun 210 by pulling the retaining clips, pull pins, pads in my hands, slip in pads, finished, didn't even have to remove the wheels. not any more. if i have to remove the power steering pump to adjust the alternator belt it's too complicated......
Yes, (plug-in) hybrid for all the short trips, boosting overall mileage. I'm talking about the perfect car here, not what's out there now. I'm pretty sure I'll end up settling for straight-up diesel.
I've had both AWD Subaru and now a FWD Passat (now 11 years old, and so am starting to ponder replacing it). I agree that good snow tires get most of what you need, but I do live in a pretty snowy part of the country, and I love to ski, so I have found myself stuck on small roads, and parking lots, where I know an AWD would have saved lots of frustration.
The Jetta Sportwagen is as close to what I'm looking for as anything out there, for sure (aside from the 80,000 dollar, for Europe only, V60).
Wagons are a tough sell in NA.
A wagon with manual is tougher still.
A wagon with manual and a diesel, not going to happen.
Besides, wagons need to be large (think tandem) so the only one available new today that comes close is a Mercedes E350.
rugbysecondrow
06-25-2012, 04:17 PM
Yes, but gets about 25 mpg. The less peppy Impreza wagon now gets over 35 mpg, which is impressive. With the technology out there now, I just don't see myself buying a car that gets less than 40 mpg highway.
You are correct...$26,500 MSRP for WRX, Volvo V60 about $75K. We each pick our poison, which I think means there is not perfect car. What is the saying, Good Quality, Fast Service, Cheap...pick two. There is a similar model for cars.
Also, the price difference, current and historic, between gas and diesel eats into some of the savings of going diesel but certainly not all.
Wagons are a tough sell in NA.
A wagon with manual is tougher still.
A wagon with manual and a diesel, not going to happen.
Besides, wagons need to be large (think tandem) so the only one available new today that comes close is a Mercedes E350.
Correct-A-Mundo.
Wagons are a tough sell in NA.
A wagon with manual is tougher still.
A wagon with manual and a diesel, not going to happen.
Besides, wagons need to be large (think tandem) so the only one available new today that comes close is a Mercedes E350.
The Jetta is manual and diesel, and has more cargo space than most "cross-over" SUVs. So it is possible. They seem to be selling like hotcakes where I live--see 'em everywhere (though I imagine many of those I see are automatics...)
dustyrider
06-25-2012, 04:25 PM
I'm subaru all the way! They make a diesel just not for us.
I can't believe the new imprezas are getting 35mph, not with AWD. Maybe on the highway with a half tank of gas, a tail wind, and rock solid tires, but certainly not in the "real" world. So may as well go for the WRX and have more fun in the turns.
To answer the question about the perfect car:
My next perfect "car" is going to be an inline 5 cylinder diesel Merc, otherwise known as a Dodge Sprinter in NA. Might take a few years, but it's gonna be my home away from home, and all around bike friendly touring machine. If you're into diesel and you live in NA, you're going to be looking at German engineering.
I don't put many miles on in a year, but when I do I may put over 300 miles on, in a single day. So a plug in is not really a "car" to me. I wish we could still buy a simple car like they used to make, but according to manufacturers no one buys those cars anymore.
goonster
06-25-2012, 04:27 PM
A wagon with manual and a diesel, not going to happen.
Has already happened: B4 Passat, A5/A6 Jetta
Besides, wagons need to be large (think tandem) so the only one available new today that comes close is a Mercedes E350.
Wagons offer the convenience of a hatch, but their "largeness" is often overstated, e.g. the B5 Passat wagon was an inch shorter than the sedan.
572cv
06-25-2012, 04:31 PM
http://www.fugly.com/media/IMAGES/Random/chia_car_watering_can.jpg
Yes, of course ! A Citroen Deux-Chevaux disguised as a front lawn !
Speak of Citroen, they have a program to develop a diesel hybrid, but it won't come here, since none of their cars come here anymore. I do live in snow country (VT) and do like the AWD on my Volvo S40T5. Its the traction getting going that makes the difference. But to an extent it is true that the FWD and traction control are far better than they used to be.
What I keep hoping for is a small pickup with a manual diesel. That would be great.
goonster
06-25-2012, 04:32 PM
Thread hijack:
The perfect truck would be a Wrangler or Tacoma with a four-cylinder diesel.
They would sell, too. Truck buyers are the one USDM demographic that understands the value of a diesel mill.
.... what is the real cost advantage of diesel vs. gas once you factor in the higher price? I know it still comes out ahead, but I'm not sure it's so significant as the simple mileage figures suggest.
This is a genuine question; I'm thinking of going diesel next time.
AngryScientist
06-25-2012, 05:10 PM
i say get over the AWD thing. unless you really need it, winter tires pretty much get you there. AWD eats fuel economy and complicates the drivetrain, relatively speaking. the V-dub is the closest you're going to get.
Elev12k
06-25-2012, 05:14 PM
I can think of many nice cars, but so far I only owned and still own SAAB's.
Below 900 classic 'combi couple' is long and has a very large door for easy access. The Fastback is a great bodystyle imo.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2543/5818791394_3e24eeb542_b.jpg
Another good thing about this SAAB: it is vintage and represents old world quality ...just like my bikes ;)
tannhauser
06-25-2012, 05:15 PM
the prefect car is a bike- no pollution, lots of fun and low maintenance.
Yup.
.... what is the real cost advantage of diesel vs. gas once you factor in the higher price? I know it still comes out ahead, but I'm not sure it's so significant as the simple mileage figures suggest.
This is a genuine question; I'm thinking of going diesel next time.
Diesel gets about 45 mpg highway. The same vehicle (let's say the Jetta) with gas engine gets about 30. The full tank (14 gallons) gets you 420 miles with the gas engine, and about 630 on the diesel. That extra 200 miles cost you an extra 4 dollars for the premium cost of the diesel (let's say 3.50 vs 3.80 per gallon); to get that extra 200 miles from the gas powered car will cost you about 24 dollars, so a net saving of about 20 dollars per tank. So that's about 400 dollars saved per 12,000 miles. I think the diesel Jetta is about 1,200 dollars more than the equivalent gas engined Jetta, so it pays back in about 3 years.
Roughly speaking.
Climb01742
06-25-2012, 05:28 PM
a used benz diesel might be an option. just not a_really_old one. in a 240D, the D stood for 'dog'.
robin3mj
06-25-2012, 05:35 PM
.... what is the real cost advantage of diesel vs. gas once you factor in the higher price? I know it still comes out ahead, but I'm not sure it's so significant as the simple mileage figures suggest.
This is a genuine question; I'm thinking of going diesel next time.
Onno said it simpler than I.
Also factor in the possible benefit that a diesel car will run forever, so maybe you get a few extra years without a car payment versus gas.
tannhauser
06-25-2012, 06:11 PM
Besides a bike the perfect car runs off a clean grid and costs zero to the environment to produce.
The first is attainable at least.
54ny77
06-25-2012, 06:11 PM
Best of all worlds--car & truck. Cruck?
http://images.craigslist.org/5Nb5O35E63Ef3Mf3Ndc6l56c76e8dfeec1b8c.jpg
http://knoxville.craigslist.org/cto/3091802234.html
Ken Robb
06-25-2012, 06:16 PM
Onno said it simpler than I.
Also factor in the possible benefit that a diesel car will run forever, so maybe you get a few extra years without a car payment versus gas.
I think it may be a mistake to assume all diesels will last longer than similar gasoline- powered models. We end to believe that all automobile diesels will last like the heavy-duty engines in trucks or those Mercedes that were really under-stressed taxi cab power plants. They did last but they were much slower than typical gasoline powered cars.
The new-tech diesels can be quite high-performance cars and really great to drive but I don't think they will last as long as those the old heavy-duty low-performance engines. Higher performance=more stress=less durability.
DHallerman
06-25-2012, 06:20 PM
The Jetta is manual and diesel, and has more cargo space than most "cross-over" SUVs. So it is possible. They seem to be selling like hotcakes where I live--see 'em everywhere (though I imagine many of those I see are automatics...)
Yes, a VW dealer in my area, lower Hudson Valley, said that they can't keep the Jetta Sportwagen, TDI (diesel), in stock...they sell quickly.
ultraman6970
06-25-2012, 06:25 PM
Wish I could afford diesel. VW TDI models just rock and give you more mileage than any hybrid in the market. My only problem is that now to get a VW with diesel engine is waaaayyyy more than years ago.
Wish my minivan was diesel too... imagine... turbo... 40 mpg in the hwy... no tune ups because those things dont have sparkplugs, engines never die... diesel is so much better in many ways but the problem is that american companies refuse to go with diesel engines, Mercedez and BMW have one in the streets this year i believe...
Well the darn dealers need to get money fixing cars, probably thats the reason the industry here is not offering diesel so much as is in europe.
I believe the chryslers minivans were sold with diesel engines in europe... :/
Hybrid my ass... diesel is the way to go!
rugbysecondrow
06-25-2012, 08:10 PM
It sounds like you have your car, the VW TDI. You made a compelling argument for yourself, so you should be convinced to make that purchase.
I would agree with a point that Ken mentioned, lets not miscredit the success or failure of a car on single style of engine and fuel. The fact that an engine is diesel does not make it good, quality engineering makes it good, care and maintenance of the owner helps it last. Whether it is a Mercedes diesel or a Toyota PU from the 1980's, those are both pretty unbeatable cars that can take a licking and keep on ticking...quality engineering. I have owned two Toyota trucks with over 200 and 300K, two Camrys with over 200K, known many people with GM and Ford trucks with well over 300K. I have also seen some supposedly good cars crap out much too early and be money pits. Furthermore, a good engine does not make a car...Honda Odyssey and their transmission issues anyone? I know a guy who had to put two in at a cost of $4K a pop and it is a known issue for some model years. These things happen.
As an aside, here are a few links that show the combined MPG which is supposedly based on realistic use. The numbers are much closer than have been mentioned. When these numbers below are pluged into a formula with the current diesel and gas prices, I think that the actual costs are much closer or even than has been argued.
I am not anti-diesel at all, I would purchase a diesel if it was the car I wanted and for the right purpose, but it also isn't fruitful to have a myopic perspective which is what seems present in this thread.
Combined MPG:
VW TDI: 34
Imprezza Wagon: 30
Mazda 3 Wagon: 32
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/31829.shtml
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/31593.shtml
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/32086.shtml
Here is some historical info on fuel prices. http://205.254.135.7/dnav/pet/pet_pri_gnd_dcus_nus_a.htm
The VW love here is surprising....
The 2012 U.S. Initial Quality Study is based on responses from more than 74,000 purchasers and lessees of new 2012 model-year cars, trucks and multi-activity vehicles surveyed after 90 days of ownership. The study is based on a 228-question battery designed to provide manufacturers with information to facilitate identification of problems and drive product improvement. The study was fielded between February and May 2012.
It places VW only three from the bottom of a list of 34 car makers; only Mini, Fiat, and the Smart Car rated lower.
Fixed
06-25-2012, 08:31 PM
The VW love here is surprising....
The 2012 U.S. Initial Quality Study is based on responses from more than 74,000 purchasers and lessees of new 2012 model-year cars, trucks and multi-activity vehicles surveyed after 90 days of ownership. The study is based on a 228-question battery designed to provide manufacturers with information to facilitate identification of problems and drive product improvement. The study was fielded between February and May 2012.
It places VW only three from the bottom of a list of 34 car makers; only Mini, Fiat, and the Smart Car rated lower.
They started making them in the us ?
Cheers
rugbysecondrow
06-25-2012, 08:33 PM
They started making them in the us ?
Cheers
Mexico, but I doubt that is the issue.
I simply do not understand why diesel costs more in the US than regular unleaded.
In Canada diesel costs less than unleaded, my wife's Passat wagon gets about 1200 km on a tank of fuel, around town, at a lower price per tankful.
The Audi I used to drive, 2.0T with the same size tank and premium unleaded would get about 475 or 500 km around town, for $25 more per tank.
Joe Remi
06-25-2012, 08:40 PM
Chevy HHR SS Turbo wagon. 2.0 liter turbo four, 28mpg, 260hp, carries a bike nicely, goes like stink..I love mine. No longer made, not many made, so keep your eyes open for one.
They started making them in the us ?
Cheers
US study, cars from all over...
http://autos.jdpower.com/content/press-release/ws4mUEA/2012-u-s-initial-quality-study.htm
nahtnoj
06-25-2012, 09:57 PM
You are correct...$26,500 MSRP for WRX, Volvo V60 about $75K.
Chinese communists are acting like capitalists w/ their V60 pricing. Are you sure that isn't the price for two?
If you absolutely need AWD, Audi has an A3 AWD turbo diesel based off of the VW Golf TDI. It's a very nice car, but you pay a premium for AWD and the Audi brand. Unfortunately, no manual is available, though the semi-automatic gearbox is said to faster and more efficient than a manual.
Diesel hybrids: yes, they're coming very soon. Audi just won LeMans with a diesel hybrid, so look for it soon in the showrooms.
Liv2RideHard
06-26-2012, 04:13 AM
Wagons are a tough sell in NA.
A wagon with manual is tougher still.
A wagon with manual and a diesel, not going to happen.
Besides, wagons need to be large (think tandem) so the only one available new today that comes close is a Mercedes E350.
It is the stigma the North American consumer associates with a wagon. People think wagon and they remember the tanks their parents used to drive.
I really miss my A4 Avant. It was gas though. Problem was I couldn't fit 4 car seats in it! I also grew tired of the expensive trips to the dealer.
German wagons in general be it a BMW, Merc or Audi make up less then 2% of the sales of that vehicle. The number is really low which is why a 3-Series manual diesel wagon will never be introduced over here sadly.
oldpotatoe
06-26-2012, 08:14 AM
To my mind, the perfect car would be a diesel/hybrid awd manual wagon. I think Volvo now makes this car (the V60), but it's absurdly expensive, and will never come to North America. Does any other manufacturer make, or plan to make, such a vehicle, and will it come to NA? Any other suggestions for the perfect car?
It's bizarre to me that Audi makes an AWD wagon, but not a manual diesel. VW makes a manual diesel wagon, but not AWD. They are missing the sweet spot.
It's a deal between Audi and VW...the US gets the diesel, Europe gets the AWD.
Yep, an AWD TDI Jetta wagen would be a great car...
oldpotatoe
06-26-2012, 08:18 AM
Wagons are a tough sell in NA.
A wagon with manual is tougher still.
A wagon with manual and a diesel, not going to happen.
Besides, wagons need to be large (think tandem) so the only one available new today that comes close is a Mercedes E350.
VW Jetta TDI wagen...call around to see if any dealers have any and then ask how long the waiting list is....around here, they are hard to get, cost a bunch, new and used and are pretty much ideal, IMHO.
goonster
06-26-2012, 08:26 AM
The 2012 U.S. Initial Quality Study is based on responses from more than 74,000 purchasers and lessees of new 2012 model-year cars, trucks and multi-activity vehicles surveyed after 90 days of ownership.
Do you buy the car you want, or do you buy a car according to a survey of short-term ownership impressions?
Good thing we have this survey to expose Minis as the terrible cars they are. (Actually, Mini ranks last because new owners complain that the switches are not where they are in other cars.)
Germany_chris
06-26-2012, 08:37 AM
Duplicate
Germany_chris
06-26-2012, 08:40 AM
Diesels tend to last longer than gas engines because the don't rev as high even high performance diesels only make it to 4000...
It's not uncommon to go to www.mobile.de and see Mercedes diesel taxi's with 600,000KM on them that still have TUV so they meet emissions standards. I can't think of a harder life for a car than a taxi.
Wilkinson4
06-26-2012, 08:41 AM
I drive a Saab Aero 07' Sport-Combi and with decent snow tires it does pretty good. Fun to drive, good power and the turbo makes mole hills out of mountains. But, since the bankruptcy I would probably steer clear.
mIKE
[QUOTE=goonster;1161608]Do you buy the car you want, or do you buy a car according to a survey of short-term ownership impressions?QUOTE]
I am the wrong person to ask because I drive very little (stuff lasts a long time) but at the same time buy whatever I want. If you like the VW, go for it. Not passing any judgments, just posting data.
rugbysecondrow
06-26-2012, 09:44 AM
The "Perfect Car" criteria, there are about a handful of dudes who will by that car, but how many women? Manual? Nope. Diesel? Nope. WAGON!? Nope. Many women do not like station wagons or mini vans, hence the proliferation of SUVs. Many women, my wife included, would NEVER EVER drive a wagon, and she barely tolerates driving a mini-van, but never would she drive a wagon. Modern day, professional, working women will not drive a grocery getter like thier mothers did. You can dress it up, all you want, it is still a station wagon.
Also, It is the stigma the North American consumer associates with a wagon. People think wagon and they remember the tanks their parents used to drive.
I really miss my A4 Avant. It was gas though. Problem was I couldn't fit 4 car seats in it! I also grew tired of the expensive trips to the dealer.
German wagons in general be it a BMW, Merc or Audi make up less then 2% of the sales of that vehicle. The number is really low which is why a 3-Series manual diesel wagon will never be introduced over here sadly.
Do you buy the car you want, or do you buy a car according to a survey of short-term ownership impressions?
Good thing we have this survey to expose Minis as the terrible cars they are. (Actually, Mini ranks last because new owners complain that the switches are not where they are in other cars.)
I could see VW doing poorly in a survey like this. One of the things I have never liked about VWs are all their silly gadgets and I am certian many might agree. Always seemed like cheap tricks to me.
Using a survey like this would not make the decision for me, but why would one purposefully ignore it? Factor it in with sources and move on.
VW Jetta TDI wagen...call around to see if any dealers have any and then ask how long the waiting list is....around here, they are hard to get, cost a bunch, new and used and are pretty much ideal, IMHO.
I stand corrected.
My dad had a VW Jetta diesel and it did not depreciate much......despite the typical VW reliability issues.
Chance
06-26-2012, 10:23 AM
Diesel gets about 45 mpg highway. The same vehicle (let's say the Jetta) with gas engine gets about 30. The full tank (14 gallons) gets you 420 miles with the gas engine, and about 630 on the diesel. That extra 200 miles cost you an extra 4 dollars for the premium cost of the diesel (let's say 3.50 vs 3.80 per gallon); to get that extra 200 miles from the gas powered car will cost you about 24 dollars, so a net saving of about 20 dollars per tank. So that's about 400 dollars saved per 12,000 miles. I think the diesel Jetta is about 1,200 dollars more than the equivalent gas engined Jetta, so it pays back in about 3 years.
Roughly speaking.
A little too roughly speaking for me to be perfect.
Diesels don’t have as much competitive advantage over gasoline as they once did. Newer technologies have made that happen. It’s silly in my opinion to still compare the two based on reputations based on equipment from decades ago. Your Jetta example is not great since 30 MPG is nuts for a modern car that size.
Check out the latest Motor Trend and Car & Driver where they compared similar size cars for mileage under normal and also steady state highway cruising. Turns out gasoline cars can be equal to diesel in efficiency. Note that diesel fuel has much more energy so equal MPG doesn’t mean equal efficiency. There is just very little difference for highway cruising. Diesel still shines a little in city driving (for non-hybrid) but not by as much, and even that is being eroded.
The perfect car should be low-cost and simple. And clean. One technology that makes a lot of sense is Displacement on Demand, which can improve gasoline engine efficiencies significantly at light loads (the way we drive most of the miles). Up to now that was limited mostly to V-8 and V-12 engines, and at least the Honda V-6, but now companies are about to roll out 4-cylinder engines that can run on 2 cylinders when all the power is not needed. And because that will improve gasoline more than diesel engines, the difference will be even less between the two.
My perfect car will be non-hybrid and non-diesel. Just keep it simple, light, clean, and low-cost.
AngryScientist
06-26-2012, 10:29 AM
My perfect car will be non-hybrid and non-diesel. Just keep it simple, light, clean, and low-cost.
most people would agree that variable displacement engines are not "simple", just sayin.
for what it's worth, my wife drives a base Jetta, and i mean base. we purchased it brand new for 17k out-the-door. it averages around 30mpg mixed driving with a 2-liter gas engine. between the price difference of diesel fuel to regular gasoline, and the thousands more the tdi would have been, the tdi would literally have never paid for itself over our base Jetta, which is a very simple automobile. very reliable, no unnecessary bells and whistles, no big rims to dent in potholes, no integrated GPS system, nice car, will probably run for 300k + miles with regular maint.
Ti Designs
06-26-2012, 10:42 AM
As always, I'm always hanging out at the very edge of the bell curve. I looked at what my car needs to do, and I'm driving the car that best fits that - my 1991 Honda CRX autocross car. Let's talk gas mileage - at 1950 pounds it's pretty easy for me to get 40 MPG. No need for batteries or diesel. Let's talk about utility - as a single seater there's plenty of room in there. When the water heater in my house failed I went to the Home Depot, bought a 40 gallon heater, slid it into my little Honda, closed the trunk and drove home. (I also won $20 in a bet with the guy who worked there) The car has a simple job, it gets me places and it makes me smile. You probably can't think of many cars that are better in traffic or parking, potholes aren't much fun, but at least the combination of light car and 50 series rubber keeps me from damaging wheels like the guys in the big euro sedans with their tires painted on. So let's talk about fun...
Chance
06-26-2012, 10:48 AM
most people would agree that variable displacement engines are not "simple", just sayin.
Yeah, everything is relative. However, if you factor added cost for this feature as an indicator of complexity it's not much.
It's like when we started seeing variable valve timing and other engine upgrades like the more recent direct gas injection. It quickly becomes a "standard" because the cost-benefit advantage is so great.
Variable displacement versus turbo charging of smaller engines will duke it out over the next couple of years. It seems to me that variable displacement of a larger engine will cost less and do about as much. We'll see how it develops. Personally would prefer a larger engine with variable displacement than a smaller turbo. Seems simpler.
lovethesport
06-26-2012, 10:52 AM
http://www.fugly.com/media/IMAGES/Random/chia_car_watering_can.jpg
This is one time the grass is not always greener!
Ramjm_2000
06-26-2012, 11:26 AM
VW Jetta TDI wagen...call around to see if any dealers have any and then ask how long the waiting list is....around here, they are hard to get, cost a bunch, new and used and are pretty much ideal, IMHO.
Probably need to come here to DC. A good many at my local VW dealer. As much as I like the Jetta TDI wagon and the new Passat (It has grown on me) I'm too much in love with my 08 Passat Turbo Wagon/Varient w/sport package and 18" Wheels. It sexy, fast, and gets close to 40 MPG high way if I use my hitch rack vice roof rack. If they decide to build the rumored B7 Passat Wagon in a TDI I'm all over that!!
BlackTiBob
06-26-2012, 11:39 AM
Wagons are a tough sell in NA.
A wagon with manual is tougher still.
A wagon with manual and a diesel, not going to happen.
Besides, wagons need to be large (think tandem) so the only one available new today that comes close is a Mercedes E350.
zap, the Mercedes E350 Wagon is close to my perfect car. With the new Direct Injection gas engine and 7 speed automatic it can get 30 MPG highway. The perfect vehicle would be the E Wagon in diesel flavor which MB could easily do since they have an E Sedan diesel (and E Wagon diesel in Europe). That would be upper 30's MPG on the road.
Moms may not like wagons but this ain't your mothers wagon. I find it to be much better looking than the E Sedan. Plus it seats 7 (2 small ones in third row) plus has 4WD. But, moms cling to their SUVs.
I love the E Wagon. Cons: pricey.......
54ny77
06-26-2012, 11:45 AM
http://www.prototypesource.com/images/Vehicles/Mini-Wiener-Snapshot.jpg
mcteague
06-26-2012, 12:22 PM
There you go. And the others already bought TSX wagons. Well, somebody bought those six TSX wagons...
Guess I'm one of those six TSX Wagon owners. I even saw another parked in the neighborhood next to mine. I first saw it when we came to an intersection side by side. His was even the same color. Sort of freaked me out as I was well aware how few of these cars were imported.
Anyway, for me it is a great car, no car is perfect. I hate SUVs and would be quite sad if I were forced to own one.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=97246&stc=1&d=1339428353
Tim
Pete Mckeon
06-26-2012, 12:46 PM
for me the one i have:banana:
rugbysecondrow
06-26-2012, 12:49 PM
Guess I'm one of those six TSX Wagon owners. I even saw another parked in the neighborhood next to mine. I first saw it when we came to an intersection side by side. His was even the same color. Sort of freaked me out as I was well aware how few of these cars were imported.
Anyway, for me it is a great car, no car is perfect. I hate SUVs and would be quite sad if I were forced to own one.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=97246&stc=1&d=1339428353
Tim
Nice car, sharp.
I own an SUV, I don't hate it, it served a purpose for me but now I no longer have that purpose so I am ready to move on. I bought because I hurt my back and could no longer bend over to put my kids in the carseat of my sedan. It was inexpensive and just a tool. With my back much better, time to move on.
The lesson I learned, buy the car that will meet your needs, not the needs of your neighbor or some forum buddies. If the VW TDI works for you, great. If a 2002 GMC Yukon would work for you, PM ME! :banana::banana::banana:
rugbysecondrow
06-26-2012, 12:53 PM
http://www.prototypesource.com/images/Vehicles/Mini-Wiener-Snapshot.jpg
you have a mini-wiener. :help:
Elev12k
06-26-2012, 01:00 PM
The "Perfect Car" criteria, there are about a handful of dudes who will by that car, but how many women? Manual? Nope. Diesel? Nope. WAGON!? Nope. Many women do not like station wagons or mini vans, hence the proliferation of SUVs. Many women, my wife included, would NEVER EVER drive a wagon, and she barely tolerates driving a mini-van, but never would she drive a wagon. Modern day, professional, working women will not drive a grocery getter like thier mothers did. You can dress it up, all you want, it is still a station wagon.
Interesing. In Europe wagons are generally considered more stylish than their saloon equivilents. Selling a Jetta to style-conscious people is a pain in Europe. Every time with a new Jetta VW tries to position it a little bit differently: they for example called it Jetta, Vento, Bora in an attempt to make you forget about the old one. Small saloons aren't very popular in Europe. Hatchbacks have the more dynamic image.
Elev12k
06-26-2012, 01:02 PM
I drive a Saab Aero 07' Sport-Combi and with decent snow tires it does pretty good. Fun to drive, good power and the turbo makes mole hills out of mountains. But, since the bankruptcy I would probably steer clear.
mIKE
Within a couple years we will be able to buy new Saabs again :banana:
Ken Robb
06-26-2012, 01:09 PM
I simply do not understand why diesel costs more in the US than regular unleaded.
In Canada diesel costs less than unleaded, my wife's Passat wagon gets about 1200 km on a tank of fuel, around town, at a lower price per tankful.
The Audi I used to drive, 2.0T with the same size tank and premium unleaded would get about 475 or 500 km around town, for $25 more per tank.
I don't know the fuel tax situation in Canada but most (maybe all?) European countries have much lower taxes on diesel fuel than gasoline. I would guess that the original reason was because most commercial vehicles were diesel and most passenger cars were gasoline powered. Subsidizing public transport (buses) and trucks for the delivery of goods/services benefits the many while private automobiles were luxuries of the few.
Of course it didn't take long for automobile buyers to demand cars that could benefit from the much cheaper subsidized diesel fuel. I can even surmise that until recently MOST diesels were basic transportation devices while MOST luxury/performance cars were gasoline powered so the idea of subsidizing diesel fuel for the masses while soaking the rich and their fancy cars still made populist sense. The pricing advantage continues but maybe the original reasoning is less valid today given the large number of privately owned high=performance diesel cars on the road in Europe.
This is all (above and below) just some semi-educated guesswork on my part. I think that refineries can, within limits imposed by what type of crude they start with, adjust the percentages of gasoline, kerosene, naptha, diesel, etc. they produce. I surmise the decision is based on supply/demand and ultimate profit.
Gummee
06-26-2012, 01:21 PM
There's as many 'perfect cars' as there are belly buttons. If I want to haul a 600# MC around, its a different set of criteria than someone hauling a pair of rear ends. Ditto with cords of wood, etc.
Take me for example: I traded a perfectly good F150 in on a 3-Series sedan. While I LOVED driving the car (truck not so much) the abilities of the truck were missed when I needed to do water changes in my reef, haul several bicycles around, etc. At that point, my 'perfect car' was an F150 and the BMW was a compromise.
FFD to now when I'm not hauling around salt water and the BMW is closer to the 'perfect car' again.
I've had an F250 with the 'Stroke in it. Hauled the ex-'s car around on a car trailer often enough that the big truck was the 'perfect car' for the job. Now? No ex- and no car hauling. It wouldn't be nearly the right vehicle for me to drive on a daily basis.
Right this second, I'm thinkin BMW wagon (3 or 5 series) with a manual would be just about right for what I need. Hitch rack for the bikes to keep em outta the wind and we're good to go.
M
A little too roughly speaking for me to be perfect.
Diesels don’t have as much competitive advantage over gasoline as they once did. Newer technologies have made that happen. It’s silly in my opinion to still compare the two based on reputations based on equipment from decades ago. Your Jetta example is not great since 30 MPG is nuts for a modern car that size.
.
I agree that simplicity and cheapness (and durability) are all important values in a car, and the "perfect" car I described would probably be lacking all three. Diesel is slightly more simple than a gas engine, though, isn't it, since you don't have an ignition mechanism.
My calculation of savings based on the Jetta are based on the actual numbers of the current Jetta gas vs diesel models, so it's a fairly precise comparison. I agree, though, that it's silly for the Jetta (and many other smallish gas-powered cars) still to be getting only 30 mpg, which is what they were all getting about 20 years ago.
One other factor to consider, which I can't do calculations for, is overall environmental 'cleanness'. Diesel takes more refining than gas, I think, and so involves more energy to produce (and more carbon ultimately released per gallon). I think. I'm not a scientist, though I do try to read up on this stuff. And diesel produces more soot, which ain't good either. On the green front, a plug in electric car, charged by wind, is the best.
Ken Robb
06-26-2012, 02:43 PM
There's as many 'perfect cars' as there are belly buttons. If I want to haul a 600# MC around, its a different set of criteria than someone hauling a pair of rear ends. Ditto with cords of wood, etc.
Take me for example: I traded a perfectly good F150 in on a 3-Series sedan. While I LOVED driving the car (truck not so much) the abilities of the truck were missed when I needed to do water changes in my reef, haul several bicycles around, etc. At that point, my 'perfect car' was an F150 and the BMW was a compromise.
FFD to now when I'm not hauling around salt water and the BMW is closer to the 'perfect car' again.
I've had an F250 with the 'Stroke in it. Hauled the ex-'s car around on a car trailer often enough that the big truck was the 'perfect car' for the job. Now? No ex- and no car hauling. It wouldn't be nearly the right vehicle for me to drive on a daily basis.
Right this second, I'm thinkin BMW wagon (3 or 5 series) with a manual would be just about right for what I need. Hitch rack for the bikes to keep em outta the wind and we're good to go.
M
There were not many wagons imported to the USA with stick shifts and the few s-series that came had 2.5 liter engines. There have been quite a few 3 and 5 series wagons converted to 3 and 3.2 liter M 3 drivetrains with excellent results:lots more usable power, similar fuel economy, and almost no difference in weight/size of engine. The engine and 5 speed from my old M3 resides in what was a 525ti wagon with automatic.
Germany_chris
06-26-2012, 02:47 PM
I don't know the fuel tax situation in Canada but most (maybe all?) European countries have much lower taxes on diesel fuel than gasoline. I would guess that the original reason was because most commercial vehicles were diesel and most passenger cars were gasoline powered. Subsidizing public transport (buses) and trucks for the delivery of goods/services benefits the many while private automobiles were luxuries of the few.
Of course it didn't take long for automobile buyers to demand cars that could benefit from the much cheaper subsidized diesel fuel. I can even surmise that until recently MOST diesels were basic transportation devices while MOST luxury/performance cars were gasoline powered so the idea of subsidizing diesel fuel for the masses while soaking the rich and their fancy cars still made populist sense. The pricing advantage continues but maybe the original reasoning is less valid today given the large number of privately owned high=performance diesel cars on the road in Europe.
This is all (above and below) just some semi-educated guesswork on my part. I think that refineries can, within limits imposed by what type of crude they start with, adjust the percentages of gasoline, kerosene, naptha, diesel, etc. they produce. I surmise the decision is based on supply/demand and ultimate profit.
the price difference isn't significant in my area, not the area I vacationed recently.
zap, the Mercedes E350 Wagon is close to my perfect car. With the new Direct Injection gas engine and 7 speed automatic it can get 30 MPG highway. The perfect vehicle would be the E Wagon in diesel flavor which MB could easily do since they have an E Sedan diesel (and E Wagon diesel in Europe). That would be upper 30's MPG on the road.
Moms may not like wagons but this ain't your mothers wagon. I find it to be much better looking than the E Sedan. Plus it seats 7 (2 small ones in third row) plus has 4WD. But, moms cling to their SUVs.
I love the E Wagon. Cons: pricey.......
Agreed. Before purchasing our E wagon I checked various sources to see if a MB E diesel wagon was coming. None coming, so we purchased a 500 (not quite as much torque as a diesel but close enough).
4wd is cool too. When the roads are wet, just floor it and it scoots.
Is it perfect. No, there is an AMG version with 500hp +/- that just rocks.
not more. Diesel should be cheaper, but it's not in many places because demand is high for it.
And today's clean diesel engines are rated as ultra-low emissions in the same league as hybrids, in many cases. No sooty black smoke from a modern VW diesel at all.
Over time, a diesel Jetta is by far the cheapest car to run if one runs it long enough.
No expensive batteries to replace, higher resale value which means a reduced depreciation. Fuel economy, when driven sanely, in the 45+ mgp range or better. Altogether, if one drives the car to 400K miles or more, the production footprint is lower, as is the ecological impact for emissions; fewer cars produced with reduced emissions and reduced scrap sounds like a good package to me. No hybrid will outlast a VW diesel on a pure long-term cost benefit analysis, and no hybrid will be environmentally good to produce. Those batteries are nasty sumps of all sorts of costly and potentially very toxic elements.
Owner of 4th Jetta TDI, all with significant mileage before trade-in.
Chance
06-26-2012, 03:21 PM
I agree that simplicity and cheapness (and durability) are all important values in a car, and the "perfect" car I described would probably be lacking all three. Diesel is slightly more simple than a gas engine, though, isn't it, since you don't have an ignition mechanism.
My calculation of savings based on the Jetta are based on the actual numbers of the current Jetta gas vs diesel models, so it's a fairly precise comparison. I agree, though, that it's silly for the Jetta (and many other smallish gas-powered cars) still to be getting only 30 mpg, which is what they were all getting about 20 years ago.
One other factor to consider, which I can't do calculations for, is overall environmental 'cleanness'. Diesel takes more refining than gas, I think, and so involves more energy to produce (and more carbon ultimately released per gallon). I think. I'm not a scientist, though I do try to read up on this stuff. And diesel produces more soot, which ain't good either. On the green front, a plug in electric car, charged by wind, is the best.
Great points all.
Regarding simplicity, diesels do lack ignition and are therefore simpler in that respect. If compared to a classic from the 60s when ignition had points, condenser, and all that, diesel were simpler and probably more reliable. However, modern electronics are so reliable that very few gasoline cars stop working because of ignition failures.
The magazines mentioned above note that 40 MPG is the new 30 MPG. Yet diesels haven't improved proportionally. The gap is closing for sure.
And regarding clean burning, plug-ins and electrics are clean but not when fueled by coal. This has been studied and reported extensively. And unfortunately we can argue that incremental power demands will come from coal since we can use all the "green" power we can make for other uses. Perhaps natural gas is a "cleaner" fuel overall. It would be interesting to see what the difference is between a NG car and an electric when power comes from NG. Either way the NG car would be much cheaper and have greater performance, so everything being equal it's hard to get people to buy electrric unless you give it to them at a discount.
Someone mentioned nothing being able to touch the VW TDI jetta wagon in terms of fuel economy...
I've been looking at this style of car lately.. the new Prius V is a very similar car (I think it is slightly bigger then the TDI though) and will definitely beat it in fuel economy, particularly if you factor in a lot of city driving (VW = 30mpg city, Toyota = 40mpg city) or the extra cost of diesel vs gasoline...
The other one I've been looking at is the outback.. a good bit worse in terms of mileage but go-anywhere capability.
I wish Honda would come out with something in this category again.. my wife likes the crosstour but I think it's pretty gross looking and I'm guessing it gets more like SUV gas mileage.
FlashUNC
06-26-2012, 03:37 PM
Tough to beat my Mark VI GTI...
I think its great anyways...
I wish Honda would come out with something in this category again.. my wife likes the crosstour but I think it's pretty gross looking and I'm guessing it gets more like SUV gas mileage.
Not the same but........a NatGas Civic is available in some area's.
Not the same but........a NatGas Civic is available in some area's.
Isn't that a lease-only thing in California only or some such nonsense?
It's great that Honda does forward-thinking experiments (e.x. their Hydrogen fuel cell car as well) but they are somewhat short on practical improvements compared to Toyota and these days it sometimes even seems like Ford is ahead of them on actual practical stuff you can buy.
(I'd rather drive a Honda but if I have to buy an appliance to move stuff at the lowest cost it seems like Toyota is hard to beat.)
Ken Robb
06-26-2012, 05:48 PM
the price difference isn't significant in my area, not the area I vacationed recently.
Gee Chris, you are so right. I haven't been to Europe since the Common Market/Euro. When I was in Germany 20 years ago diesel was about 40% less than gasoline. I wonder if the growing number of diesel cars increased the demand for diesel fuel so much the price reached near-parity with gasoline. I just found that in some countries now diesel costs a bit MORE than gasoline like in the USA.
Wait until my wife hears I was wrong once this year.:)
VTCaraco
06-26-2012, 10:27 PM
Nothing really new to add, but we're nearly at 220k on our 98 Volvo V70 AWD wagon and can't imagine anything else. I've been ready to "upgrade" a number of times but I'm pretty sure my wife would sooner upgrade a husband rather than give up her faithful companion. Bought it new almost 15 years ago to the day. Replaced the rear main seal about 5 years ago, drive shaft about 10 years ago, and only a handful of other non-routine things in the rest of our relationship.
Between the comfort (was in a rental GM today and the ergonomics don't compare in the slightest), relative economy (still get 25+ mpg on the highway and 21-22 around town ~~ which won't win any awards but given the context just described when you consider that many would be on their THIRD vehicle in this window of time, it DOES feel responsible and aware), and extreme confidence (still can't break it free in the icy conditions of VT with the good snows we keep on it), it remains the perfect vehicle for us. What's sort-of interesting is how well it has suited us as we've matured from 20-somethings (felt pretty zippy and cool when new) to early parenthood to fuddy-duddy parents of a teenager now.
Personally, we're looking forward to see whether the new Ford Fusion, which is the same as the Mondial we rented in Europe may be a potential replacement when the sad day comes :eek:
Marburg
06-26-2012, 11:33 PM
As a ferriner living in Kiwi-ville, I know my opinion is worth nil, but it is a shame there isn't more competition for TDIs in the states (as the former owner of a mk 4 TDI Golf).
Down under, we get the Focus and Mondeo TDCis, both of which look fab. Alfa 159 JTD wagon as a (slightly rubbish alternative) to your 320d estate, sir?
Then again, maybe Chrysler *cough* Fiat will start bringing oil burners back into the states. We get relatively small numbers of Jeep diesels.
not more. Diesel should be cheaper, but it's not in many places because demand is high for it.
And today's clean diesel engines are rated as ultra-low emissions in the same league as hybrids, in many cases. No sooty black smoke from a modern VW diesel at all.
Over time, a diesel Jetta is by far the cheapest car to run if one runs it long enough.
No expensive batteries to replace, higher resale value which means a reduced depreciation. Fuel economy, when driven sanely, in the 45+ mgp range or better. Altogether, if one drives the car to 400K miles or more, the production footprint is lower, as is the ecological impact for emissions; fewer cars produced with reduced emissions and reduced scrap sounds like a good package to me. No hybrid will outlast a VW diesel on a pure long-term cost benefit analysis, and no hybrid will be environmentally good to produce. Those batteries are nasty sumps of all sorts of costly and potentially very toxic elements.
Owner of 4th Jetta TDI, all with significant mileage before trade-in.
Nailed it.
Also, I like to talk to the people who actually own the cars in which I'm interested. The wider the cross section the better. For instance, everyone, including mommies, who I've spoken to about their Jetta TDI wagons, will never go back to gasoline powered cars.
Meanwhile Prius owners with whom I've spoken say they'll never buy another Prius.
Also, I like to talk to the people who actually own the cars in which I'm interested. The wider the cross section the better. For instance, everyone, including mommies, who I've spoken to about their Jetta TDI wagons, will never go back to gasoline powered cars.
Meanwhile Prius owners with whom I've spoken say they'll never buy another Prius.
Any idea why they don't like their Priuses? The couple of people I know with a Prius seem to like them fine; don't know if that translates into buying another one.
Ti Designs
06-27-2012, 07:55 AM
Having read this thread, I have to ask: Just how "green" is it to throw out a car [full of batteries] every 5 or 6 years? Almost every car brought up here is under 5 years old. Think about it, they have to wind up somewhere...
AngryScientist
06-27-2012, 08:01 AM
Having read this thread, I have to ask: Just how "green" is it to throw out a car [full of batteries] every 5 or 6 years? Almost every car brought up here is under 5 years old. Think about it, they have to wind up somewhere...
i'm with you. i'd like to see an environmental/cost life cycle analysis of a modern hybrid car. from the facilites and materials required to produce the car to end-of-life. i'd be willing to make a sizeable wager that any 4cylinder econobox comes out ahead from an environmental impact and cost perspective over the prius's of the world.
Chance
06-27-2012, 08:04 AM
Isn't the average car on the road over 10 years old? Cars traded after 5 years just keep running for a second or third owner. They don't go to a landfill. Why would "green" cars be any different?:confused:
I believe that as long as I can get another Volvo C30 I am never getting any other kind of car, except the next one will have the manual gearbox. Even if I have to go to Europe (aw shucks that's terrible) and have it shipped back.
If for no other reason than the chairs. Until you get in supercar territory nobody makes seats you can sit in for an eight hour drive and not be painfully aware of it. They also are built for a normal person not a four foot wide person so there is actual lateral support when you are making the tires howl and engaging yaw reduction.
Isn't that a lease-only thing in California only or some such nonsense?
It's great that Honda does forward-thinking experiments (e.x. their Hydrogen fuel cell car as well) but they are somewhat short on practical improvements compared to Toyota and these days it sometimes even seems like Ford is ahead of them on actual practical stuff you can buy.
(I'd rather drive a Honda but if I have to buy an appliance to move stuff at the lowest cost it seems like Toyota is hard to beat.)
For purchase.
http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-natural-gas/price.aspx
Gummee
06-27-2012, 08:34 AM
I believe that as long as I can get another Volvo C30 I am never getting any other kind of car, except the next one will have the manual gearbox. Even if I have to go to Europe (aw shucks that's terrible) and have it shipped back.
If for no other reason than the chairs. Until you get in supercar territory nobody makes seats you can sit in for an eight hour drive and not be painfully aware of it. They also are built for a normal person not a four foot wide person so there is actual lateral support when you are making the tires howl and engaging yaw reduction.
Most comfortable seats I've sat in for road trips were the ones in my 3-Series. The second best are in my little brother's Mustang. No. I'm not kidding. They're excellent seats.
The seats in the Bank Vault (S320) are great too, but not as supportive as the two above.
M
i'm with you. i'd like to see an environmental/cost life cycle analysis of a modern hybrid car. from the facilites and materials required to produce the car to end-of-life. i'd be willing to make a sizeable wager that any 4cylinder econobox comes out ahead from an environmental impact and cost perspective over the prius's of the world.
www.nextgreencar.com does exactly this. But it's a European site, and lists European versions of cars, so it's actually hard to do the comparison of, say, the Prius V vs the Jetta TDI. It looks as though the Prius wins, but not by a lot.
rugbysecondrow
06-27-2012, 08:48 AM
Having read this thread, I have to ask: Just how "green" is it to throw out a car [full of batteries] every 5 or 6 years? Almost every car brought up here is under 5 years old. Think about it, they have to wind up somewhere...
Interesting point. In Maryland, the first state I have lived in where there are both emmissions tests and mechanical inspections, the used car market SUCKS. I had a perfectly fine 1996 Toyota, 200K miles, that we were selling to get a mini van for our kids, dogs etc. I had it sold for a fair price to a private party, but to pass the mechanical inspection mandated by the state about $3K worth of work would have to be done. I was left to either deal with poachers from out of state or Car Max... Car Max it was on that deal. On a truck I sold, a guy from PA trailered it back to PA to be liecensed there. The Mechanical inspection is a crap shoot. After the $85 cost, who the hell knows what they will find. What I do know is that there is a reason a 1996 Toyota sells for about $2500 and not $10K, it is because it is a 1996 car, older, maybe wear and tear etc. Frankly, I don't know how people without means are able to purchase inexpensive transportation in this state. IMO, it is a racket. What many people, most people, do is trade in the cars for new ones...the auto dealers benefit the most.
Then there is the bi-annual emmissions test, which seems to force many older cars off the road prematurely. If you have a check engine light on (common for many cars over 150k miles) you will automatically fail. My 1999 Camry with 195k miles failed the test due to the light, which required me to go to an authorized servicer to get the work done. The state is kind enough to cap work at $500 and provide a waiver. Suprisingly enough, the work at the dealership came in right at $511...funny how that works out. Again, not sure how those without means would make this work.
Personally, I find it wasteful, but the system is what it is.
This "batteries aren't green" thing is a right wing myth..
The batteries get recycled. Go look it up.. IIRC Toyota even pays you to give them back.
Ken Robb
06-27-2012, 09:04 AM
This "batteries aren't green" thing is a right wing myth..
The batteries get recycled. Go look it up.. IIRC Toyota even pays you to give them back.
Why is it a "right wing" myth?
estilley
06-27-2012, 09:29 AM
for the first time in Portland, B99 (99% vegetable oil, 1% diesel) is cheaper than regular diesel.
My '85 Mercedes 300D has over 365,000 miles on it and runs smoother on veggie.
snip
Interesting point. In Maryland, the first state I have lived in where there are both emmissions tests and mechanical inspections, the used car market SUCKS. I had a perfectly fine 1996 Toyota, 200K miles, that we were selling to get a mini van for our kids, dogs etc. I had it sold for a fair price to a private party, but to pass the mechanical inspection mandated by the state about $3K worth of work would have to be done. The Mechanical inspection is a crap shoot. After the $85 cost, who the hell knows what they will find.
The inspection program is run by Maryland State Police....certainly no guarantee that's it's perfect but.......
I sold several vehicles in MD and what problems were found were service items that I knew about plus maybe 2 other small items.
I think it's a good program that helps limit un-suspecting individuals and scammers from selling bad vehicles.
Agreed, the emissions program is nothing but a jobs program plus help fund several underfunded liabilities.
Any idea why they don't like their Priuses? The couple of people I know with a Prius seem to like them fine; don't know if that translates into buying another one.
Well, I live in L.A., where life isn't all about stop-and-go on the 405 Freeway. Here you also need power, the more the better, for left turns with oncoming traffic, accelerating on freeway on ramps and lane passing. The Prius lacks in all of that. Diesels handle L.A. traffic much, much better.
In fact, I know a couple Prius drivers who might dump their cars for diesels.
As far as the batteries go, I'm sure the technology is better now, but for a while, the Prius was thought of as the most environmentally unfriendly car produced simply because of the batteries.
Lastly, have you ever tried drafting off a Prius? :rolleyes:
Boxy cars are better. I read somewhere Mark Cavendish pacelines with a Mini Cooper.
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