Time to hang it up, the Kenyans are coming!

[MattTuck]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/21/sports/cycling/in-country-of-runners-kenyan-cycling-team-faces-uphill-climb.html?_r=1

[cycle_chic]

It would be awesome to see an African team at the Tour sometime in the near future. One can dream...

[cmg]

its only a matter of time. i was wondering when ex-runners would discover the sport.

[LesMiner]

As a sidebar, I was talking with a guy from Mexico. He is a marathon runner and tries to get a few a year. He says that when the purse is a few thousand dollars or more the Kenyans show up and take all the winnings. They must travel around looking for competitive events they can enter and operate at professional level for pay. The Kenyans could do the same thing in cycling. What would stop them from competing in the lower level races in Europe? They could also do the same thing in the US. They compete in all the major marathons so why not cycling events. They certainly seem to have the endurance techniques well perfected. However cycling and long distance running are way different in strategy and skills. Once they get it they will be very tough competitors.

[laupsi]

As a sidebar, I was talking with a guy from Mexico. He is a marathon runner and tries to get a few a year. He says that when the purse is a few thousand dollars or more the Kenyans show up and take all the winnings. They must travel around looking for competitive events they can enter and operate at professional level for pay. The Kenyans could do the same thing in cycling. What would stop them from competing in the lower level races in Europe? They could also do the same thing in the US. They compete in all the major marathons so why not cycling events. They certainly seem to have the endurance techniques well perfected. However cycling and long distance running are way different in strategy and skills. Once they get it they will be very tough competitors.

never been to Kenya or Africa, wonder what the roads are like...

[MattTuck]

LesMiner, Even the lower level pro races require you to enter with a team. You can't enter as an unattached rider, I do not believe except at the amateur levels.

Although, maybe in Europe they have REALLY low level pro races that are more open. In general, I don't know that an unattached rider could do that well without support from a team. What do you do at the feed zone?

[AngryScientist]

hmmm,,

anyone want to chip in and buy a pro team. who owns a station wagon, that's a good place to start...

[DHallerman]

never been to Kenya or Africa, wonder what the roads are like...

That's how the article in The Times concludes, that the poor road quality is one major block to the growth of professional cycling.

[vav]

never been to Kenya or Africa, wonder what the roads are like...

Not very different than the NE. :p

[blantonator]

I wonder how those Bike Line bibs made it all the way to Kenya!

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/06/21/sports/CYCLING1/CYCLING1-popup.jpg

[zennmotion]

... they share Leong’s vision, which differs significantly from the traditional notion of Western development in Africa. “I met people who were involved in charity,” she said. “I thought it wasn’t a solution to give someone clothes or money. It may be helpful, but we wanted to do something concrete.”

In other words, like many before us with more money than sense and drawn to the glamour of third world travel we thought we should "do something". Based on our arrogant superiority and entitlement, rather than asking questions and learning how to really make a difference with all the poverty we saw from inside the air conditioned Land Cruiser, we thought we'd blow through some money and buy ourselves 15 minutes of fame back home at the Kenyan's expense. No harm could come of it, right?

Phucking development tourists. Go home.

[Fixed]

Get them a cross Or mountain bike for those. Roads
If I remember correctly there are black pros racing in Europe now
Cheers :)

[lovethesport]

Not very different than the NE. :p

Not because of frost heaves that's for sure!

[redir]

A friend of mine has been doing the Tour of Rwanda the last few years and the level at which the locals race at is astounding. This is a great article to reasd and gives you a glimpse into the hearts and minds of these competitors:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/07/11/110711fa_fact_gourevitch

Sean Kelly was quoted as saying “I think the boom in the economy affected things a lot. The Irish riders of the past few years are just not hungry enough, and things have got a lot easier in life. "

There is some truth to it.

[zennmotion]

I wonder how those Bike Line bibs made it all the way to Kenya!

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/06/21/sports/CYCLING1/CYCLING1-popup.jpg

In Africa, they're often called "dead man's clothes" because they are the rejected leftovers of clothing donated to US/European charities that get bundled in bales and sold by the pound (tonne really) and end up in African markets. When I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Mali, I remember running into a guy wearing a tshirt from my old upstate NY neighbor's plumbing business- he had printed fewer than 20 of them for his crew. And there it was, in my little dusty village, population < 300. Small world.

Edit: One unintended consequence of dumping charity clothing into developing country markets is the damage to local clothing production by small scale local artisan tailors from local (or at least regional) fabrics. Tailoring is one of a few reliable steady income sources that otherwise unemployed urban poor people have. Go to any African city and you'll see them on street corners everywhere with their pedal operated sewing rigs- until the bales of Goodwill rejects arrive. Then, no more work, can't compete with stained Dockers that cost pennies in the market.

[maxdog]

... they share Leong’s vision, which differs significantly from the traditional notion of Western development in Africa. “I met people who were involved in charity,” she said. “I thought it wasn’t a solution to give someone clothes or money. It may be helpful, but we wanted to do something concrete.”

In other words, like many before us with more money than sense and drawn to the glamour of third world travel we thought we should "do something". Based on our arrogant superiority and entitlement, rather than asking questions and learning how to really make a difference with all the poverty we saw from inside the air conditioned Land Cruiser, we thought we'd blow through some money and buy ourselves 15 minutes of fame back home at the Kenyan's expense. No harm could come of it, right?

Phucking development tourists. Go home.

+1 Thanks for the reality check.

[velotel]

Thanks for the link to the New Yorker article. Good read. Enjoyed every page

[monkeybanana86]

I wonder how those Bike Line bibs made it all the way to Kenya!
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/06/21/sports/CYCLING1/CYCLING1-popup.jpg

that picture is so dope. and I'd love to see an african team. also maybe cadel's kid one day!

In Africa, they're often called "dead man's clothes" because they are the rejected leftovers of clothing donated to US/European charities that get bundled in bales and sold by the pound (tonne really) and end up in African markets. When I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Mali, I remember running into a guy wearing a tshirt from my old upstate NY neighbor's plumbing business- he had printed fewer than 20 of them for his crew. And there it was, in my little dusty village, population < 300. Small world.

Edit: One unintended consequence of dumping charity clothing into developing country markets is the damage to local clothing production by small scale local artisan tailors from local (or at least regional) fabrics. Tailoring is one of a few reliable steady income sources that otherwise unemployed urban poor people have. Go to any African city and you'll see them on street corners everywhere with their pedal operated sewing rigs- until the bales of Goodwill rejects arrive. Then, no more work, can't compete with stained Dockers that cost pennies in the market.

anyway, there is a great story in the Best American Nonrequired Reading 2003 about t-shirts ending up in Africa. I read it in high school and it really opened my eyes. I always wear my stuff until the threads come undone.

link to story:
http://books.google.com/books?id=VA4sda0VpsIC&pg=PA224&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

[ultraman6970]

I know you guys are going to ban me for this comment but is not with bad intention ok?... pretty much road cycling is dominated by the whitey, asians and blacks are good in the track. Their physique is good for that, but whitey is good for riding bikes not doubt about that or we would have seen dominance of other races in the the sport since long time ago.

Good for the guys, they are fulfilling a dream maybe, but doubt see them any day soon as a team in the TdF or even getting a WC medal or Olympic medal any day soon either.

Same situation with other countries like INDIA, they pretty much dont have cycling, IMO is their physique that fails too. No idea if they have good runners, but i know they play good cricket, but the sport is practiced by rich people, not like cycling that in many countries is called the "Sport of the richest, practiced by the poor", maybe europe and the US are the exception, but everywhere else the sport is practiced by the medium to super low income people.

Either way, good for the africans. Are these the same guys that a newspaper and the web was talking about like 2 years ago?? anybody remembers??... yes they are ...

[benitosan1972]

I think that cycling, like golf, tennis, and skiing, are just one of those sports dominated by those who have better financial access to participate & buy the equipment. I refute the idea that there about a racial/body type, it is that, plus access to the sport, cuz if there is, then the Kenyans should be on top (literally, they would be KOM of everything) ;). Once they get access to bikes... watch out!

[BumbleBeeDave]

I think the differences you speak of are largely a product of environment, not genetics.

Look at gender . . . while there may indeed end up being real differences in the muscular athletic performance achievable by the two genders, we are finding out that the differences are likely to be far smaller than past chauvinistic predictions forecast. The diffeence between men and women has narrowed and continues to do so, albeit more slowly now.

I don't think there's going to end up being any differences in the athletic performances achievable by male riders from any race. It's just a matter of the environments equalizing as far as nutrition, training techniques, available roads for training, etc. for enough time for the phsycial differences to even out.

I don't think you're racist at all--just incorrect. ;)

BBD

I know you guys are going to ban me for this comment but is not with bad intention ok?... pretty much road cycling is dominated by the whitey, asians and blacks are good in the track. Their physique is good for that, but whitey is good for riding bikes not doubt about that or we would have seen dominance of other races in the the sport since long time ago.

Good for the guys, they are fulfilling a dream maybe, but doubt see them any day soon as a team in the TdF or even getting a WC medal or Olympic medal any day soon either.

Same situation with other countries like INDIA, they pretty much dont have cycling, IMO is their physique that fails too. No idea if they have good runners, but i know they play good cricket, but the sport is practiced by rich people, not like cycling that in many countries is called the "Sport of the richest, practiced by the poor", maybe europe and the US are the exception, but everywhere else the sport is practiced by the medium to super low income people.

Either way, good for the africans. Are these the same guys that a newspaper and the web was talking about like 2 years ago?? anybody remembers??... yes they are ...

[christian]

As far as I have determined, Canadians are not better hockey players than Americans because of fundamental genetic differences.

C-U-L-T-U-R-E.

[benitosan1972]

That read weird, what I meant to say was that I think financial/economic access lends to more participation in certain sports, which will turn out better riders over time. Not race.

[christian]

No, no I got you. Was responding to the ultraman.

[benitosan1972]

If Ultraman's logic is correct, shouldn't America aka fast-food nation be dominant in Sumo wrestling? :banana:

[LesMiner]

What may be more significant is that Pro Cycling may see these Kenyans as another pool of talent they tap. Another source for entry level domestques that have a potential. How many others started that way? I think it would be difficult for the Kenyans to create a competitive 7 Eleven like team to compete in Europe. Africa does not have much infastructure to support cycling. There is no one to compete with in Africa. Maybe there is a Kenyan marathon runner that will cross over like Eric Heiden?

[jr59]

I think that cycling, like golf, tennis, and skiing, are just one of those sports dominated by those who have better financial access to participate & buy the equipment. I refute the idea that there about a racial/body type, it is that, plus access to the sport, cuz if there is, then the Kenyans should be on top (literally, they would be KOM of everything) ;). Once they get access to bikes... watch out!

I think so. Not until a major bike co decides it wants the urban market. Who is going to sponsor them? Even give them bikes to compete as a team?

The bottom line is that companies sponsor bike teams to sell gear. I know very few black people that can afford a 3000 dollar race bike. Or even a 500 dollar bike.

The saying in NASCAR is; Win on Sundat= Sales on Monday. With the tightening economy, sponsor want something in return for their dollars. they want people to want their bikes. They want somebody that people with disposable income can relate to. That, I am sad to say, is not a Kenyan.

I'm sorry to put it this way, but it is a fact.

[William]

As an aside, I watched a Docu-movie on Netflix a while back about a world class professional skateborder from Ca. Can't remember his name right now but he made the leap to snowboarding and was a world class competitor in that sport as well with mfr backing. He ended up quitting snowboarding because he couldn't, in his words, "relate to all the rich kids" in the sport. He came from a lower/middle income area and none of his friends could afford to snowboard. It obviously takes money to outfit yourself properly if you don't have a team/mfr backing you.

There are sports like cycling, skiing, snowboarding, etc... that require a large cash outlay to end up with competitive gear. That right there will exclude a percentage of the population from getting involved. And a certain percentage of individuals who have the genetics to possibly dominate will never have the chance to even try. There are some who get around that due to being in the right place at the right time to get the potential seen and get support to get there....but that's few and far between.





William

[fiamme red]

Population by country:

1. China - 1,347,350,000
2. India - 1,210,193,422
3. USA - 313,778,000
4. Indonesia - 237,641,326
5. Brazil - 192,376,496
...
75. Belgium - 10,951,266

And yet Belgium produces many more world-class cyclists than the top five combined. It's not about genetics.

[redir]

It's definitely not genetics. It's purely cultural. I mean really the US didn't even produce world class riders until the 70/80's. Because culturally the sport of cycling is European. Funny thing is the world class cyclist that the US did produce over a hundred years ago was in fact black. I don't think it's necessarily racist to suggest that there are genetic differences between blacks and whites, obviously there are, but it's simply wrong to suggest that blacks cannot compete at the highest level of the sport when they have not had the chance to do so. If you read the article I posted earlier you will see that they are coming to the sport and are very passionate about it. They will produce some one soon I think who will be at the top level.

[jr59]

It's definitely not genetics. It's purely cultural. I mean really the US didn't even produce world class riders until the 70/80's. Because culturally the sport of cycling is European. Funny thing is the world class cyclist that the US did produce over a hundred years ago was in fact black. I don't think it's necessarily racist to suggest that there are genetic differences between blacks and whites, obviously there are, but it's simply wrong to suggest that blacks cannot compete at the highest level of the sport when they have not had the chance to do so. If you read the article I posted earlier you will see that they are coming to the sport and are very passionate about it. They will produce some one soon I think who will be at the top level.

Maybe! I would like to see it, but the people who pay the bills may and will have a say in this, and they want to sell bikes and gear. I can't see any of the big sponsors being ok with the making of a black star. No matter how good he is. It won't sell to the market that they are trying to reach!

It sounds bad, but that is the way it is! At the highest level, the teams are run my big money. Little teams have little chance, much the gear they would need to train up for these events.

So I doubt it. Maybe in a few single events. But not even the classics.

Maybe one day it won't come down to this, but not right now. Nor any time I can for see.

[Elefantino]

This quote jumped out at me from the New Yorker article:

“Cycling is like a fatal drug. When you get into it, you don’t want to do anything else."

Wow. So true.

[nmrt]

I humbly disagree. Athletic prowess at an elite level (or even intellectual prowess) is mostly genetic. But it is most definitely NOT racial. There is a reason why out of all white men, there is only one Lance. And out of all black men there is only one Bolt. The reason why Lance is Lance is because of his genes. I do acknowledge his training, team mates etc. But I digress.

I believe a person is a genius because of genes and some amount of hard work. For others (people like me), I will never be a genius no matter how much work I put into it. Why? GENES!

This is precisely why not every scientist gets the Nobel Prize. And not every musician is Amadeus Mozart although many scientists and musicians are putting in the same number is works hours as the Nobel Laureate or Mozart.

Having said that it is genes (mostly) and not race that dictates achievement, I do wonder why we see not white men winning the 100m any more. Is it race is some cases (because of the genes)?

[benitosan1972]

I'm aZn: good in math, horrible driver, good at ping-pong, don't play video games, and slow on the track... breaking stereotypes!!! :banana:

[ultraman6970]

Well, wonder this african guys will start incorporating cheetahs and lions to their training planning. Or you run or die, that's the way their marathon guys train :D

Now seriously, non seen a single black cycling rider able to make it in to pro, besides the black french trackers that probably are mixed with whity. Central and south america had black riders, brazil, puerto rico, etc but are pretty bad. My ex boss did cycling and he was Belize and he was thin as a gazelle, black also... he did not know i did cycling either and talking with him he had to agreed... blacks and bicycles can't mix.

Even at american level... any road national champion that is black? never seen one, in the track there is one i believe... Even in brazil, I never seen one.. all the good ones are mulatto or just whiteys... It is an interesting topic because some races or people from specific countries wont excel in cycling and probalby they wont... arabs? Hindi?? Philipinos???

[krhea]

I know you guys are going to ban me for this comment but is not with bad intention ok?... pretty much road cycling is dominated by the whitey, asians and blacks are good in the track. Their physique is good for that, but whitey is good for riding bikes not doubt about that or we would have seen dominance of other races in the the sport since long time ago.



Not sure if you've ever seen a pic of the Schleck brothers...If you put those guys in running shoes/shorts, a singlet, pinned a number on their chests and took a photo you'd think they were elite runners as skinny as they are.
Blacks excelled at track racing many many years ago, not solely because of their physique but because that's where they were "allowed" to compete, They were bet on like folks bet on horse racing, consequently they put in the work and were pretty darn good. It was their "way out" or so they thought so they worked and did their best.
Genetics of course plays a part in who we are, what we become, how good we are at one thing or another etc but don't discount, environment, support system, economics, access to health care, role models etc.

I'm a black cyclist and yes, even still, in 2012 one of a very tiny minority of cyclists. I'm from a tiny farm town in central Ohio, population in 2000 was 13,000. African-American population .15%. When I lived there the population was around 7-8000. Rode my first century at 14yrs old(14hr:30 some minutes) in 1972. I had four much older brothers, all outstanding athletes in the "popular" sports of basketball, baseball, football.
At 16 I did my first bike race. At 54 I'm still riding and even racing a bit. How did that happen? How did a black kid from the wrong side of the tracks start riding, start competing and enjoy it enough that all these years later he's still doing it...?
1. Genetics/role models: my dad was always a fit guy, he'd walk to his job in the auto factory and home at least 3times per week even during Ohio winters, round trip about 8miles at a time when people in small town America weren't doing the "fitness thing". I always ask him "why" he walked when he had a car and he said, "it felt good, that he felt better". Something in our genes was good. My 4 brothers all received college scholarship offers in various sports. None of them ever attended a day of college. I to, received scholarship offers but not in basketball, football, baseball or track. Mine was in the whitest sport there was at the time, tennis. I never played any of the sports my brothers played, however, some how we all excelled at our chosen sports. My dad and Arthur Ashe were my role models. Don't get much better than that.

2. Environment: Bellefontaine OH was/is the "highest" point in Ohio. When I was in junior high school the state developed the Top of Ohio Bike Route. It was around the time of Bikecentennial, for all you oldsters who were around then. My dad used to take the family on Sunday drives around the county and we'd see these little green signs with a bike image and the letters "TofO" on them and he'd tell us about the bike route, 52miles, past Zane and the Ohio Caverns, up Cockscrew Hill(famous for being used for auto hillclimb races featured on Wide World of Sports and seemingly impossible to climb on a bike...at least to my young eyes), across Apple Ridge, past the Dairy Freeze, across the valley, past Campbell Hill(highest point in Ohio) etc etc. I always wondered what it would be like to ride "on the highway". To climb Corkscrew. To blaze down Apple Ridge with the wind in my face and then to stop and have a huge chocolate malt at the Dairy Freeze. My dad would always say, "kev, you can do that if you really want to and try hard". Great roads, low traffic, lots of climbs etc. My home course that I rode and trained on as a punk teenager was used for the 1980 Olympic Road trials. Great environment.

3. Support System/rode models: My family, who DID think I was a bit weird for wanting to ride my bike "out in the country" but never told me I couldn't or shouldn't. They had no knowledge of cycling but they supported my wish to ride.
My high school sweetheart, a white girl, whose family was big into cycling. Her father raced. They toured in Europe. They had the very first tandem I'd ever seen, a 15spd yellow Paramount and cycling was simply a part of their lives. He hated me and actually pulled a gun on me while backpacking the Long Trail in Vermont when I was 14 and told me to stay away from his daughter. That he would never allow her to date a black guy. With this said, he took me to my first century, probably hoping I'd get lost and he'd never see me again! After he saw I didn't quit even though I was one of the last finishers I gained a bit of respect. He was a doctor and 3 or 4 of his doctor friends were also serious riders. Dr Hess on his Raleigh Professional, Dr Jack on his bright red Pino, Dr Munn(girlfriends dad) on his Schwinn Paramount and then there was the "black sheep" of the group and no, not me, there was a man who had the original "chrome dome" head, perfectly smooth, shaped like an egg who was a truck driver who rode like the wind. He was meaner and tougher than the doctors and was always cussing. I don't remember his name but I remember his bike. It was a 100% chrome Cinelli. I'll never forget that bike. It was the most beautiful bike I'd ever seen. In the blazing sun of Ohio summers that bike was blinding. While the doctors all wore leather "hairnet" helmets this guy wore a blue bandana wrapped around his neck and that's it. The combo of his shiny chrome bike and his shiny "chrome dome" head was quite a sight. These men, for whatever reason, took me under their wing and supported my love of cycling by allowing to ride with them every once in awhile. My first complete ride of the Top of Ohio Bike Route was with these men. I remember feeling a hand in the small of my back for the first time in my life on that ride as I struggled up Corkscrew Hill. Each of the men took a turn pushing me up that climb and they would not allow me to stop or to walk. I gained my girlfriends dad's respect and the respect of all those great men. They were great role models who never took it easy on me, pushed me to ride farther, to ride safely and most importantly, they taught to really enjoy my time in the saddle and appreciate my surroundings and realize how lucky I was to be doing something so cool.

Economics: We were poor, very poor. I rode a dilapidated Sears 3spd that I turned the handlebars upside down on so it had that 10spd "flavor". My dad had a rule, he would/could afford to buy each kid one bike, one time. We all got a bike when we graduated from 3rd to 4th grade. That was it. No more bikes. To get another bike you had to work or you kept your 4th grade bike forever. I choose a Montgomery Wards knockoff Stingray with ape bars. I rode the tires off that bike and then crashed it and it was gone. I didn't have another bike until I was in 7th or 8th grade when our trash guy found a beat up bike on the good side of the tracks and gave it to me. A black Sears 3spd English Racer. That became my pride and joy. It also had a bad crash and was gone. Along came the Aldens catalog. Anyone remember that catalog? Kinda like a Sears, JCP Pennys kinda place I think in Chicago. I saw a yellow C.Itoh in that catalog and fell in love. $69.99. Parents couldn't and wouldn't afford it. Saved my pennies and bought it. My first century rolls around. All I have are cut-off jeans shorts. My girlfriends dad says I need shiny black cycling shorts with this weird thing in the crotch called a chamois. Can't afford cycling shorts and they look to weird, shiny and stretchy and have an odd crotch. Hmmm, a chamois, my dad uses one of those to dry his car after he washes it. I buy a chamois skin, my mom sews it into the seat/crotch of my cut off shorts and hey, cycling jeans!!!! When you have no money and want something so badly, you find a way to do it or get it.

Health care: Even though we were poor we were healthy. My father made sure we saw the dentist, had our eyes checked, got glasses when needed, wore "good shoes", had warm clothes in the winter, had the medicine we needed when we needed it etc. As I got older and into sports he made sure I got physicals. When I injured my knee he took me to the doctor immediately etc. We ate well. My dad had a huge garden right across the street from our house and we ate tons of vegetables all year long. We weren't allowed to have much candy, we always had to have a glass of water with our dinner, we only got one cookie in our sack lunch, he would take us to McDonalds as a big treat once a month. I had horrible allergies as I kid into my late teens and I always had meds and never missed a dr appt. My parents made sure we were as healthy and well taken care of as possible in our situation.

Sorry about the long post but we all come from different places and times and have different backgrounds and reasons why we've done the things we've done and still do the things we do. In a world where we constantly become closer to one another by virtue of computers/technology the old "reasons" or excuses why a certain person or a certain set of people can't do something has to fade into the background. Throughout all our lives there have been people "from the other side of tracks" doing things we all thought could never be done. I was in the lead press vehicle at the Chicago Marathon in 1984 when a runner missed the marathon world record by literally 1 second. In that press vehicle were a couple of the top coaches in the world along with running writers from all over the world. The entire group was speechless watching this runner, I think it was Steve Jones, run so fast, so smooth for so long. Many said that the marathon record was almost at it's finite end, meaning, it wouldn't be humanly possible to run any faster. The current record is 2hr:03min:38sec. Steve Jones ran 2:08:05.

My point to all this is simply, anything is possible when a person or a "people" is given the opportunity, the role models, adequate health care, proper environment, economic support and a nurturing support system.

[54ny77]

Nothing makes you feel faster than a good pair of genes.

http://www.tritalk.co.uk/forums/userpix/1864_400marcopantani0_1.jpg


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2270/2503453576_f41863a5cc_o.gif

[54ny77]

That was an awesome & inspiring story. Thank you for sharing it.

...edit....

[ultraman6970]

I had a pair of these ones :) They looked weird but were cool :)

Nice analysis Krhea.

Nothing makes you feel faster than a good pair of genes.

http://www.tritalk.co.uk/forums/userpix/1864_400marcopantani0_1.jpg


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2270/2503453576_f41863a5cc_o.gif

[LegendRider]

The nature v. nuture debates can get tiresome, but since we're on the topic... Has anyone read Taboo: Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We’re Afraid to Talk About It by Jon Entine?

http://run-down.com/guests/je_black_athletes_p1.php

[redir]

Cool story krhea :beer:

[Hawker]

The nature v. nuture debates can get tiresome, but since we're on the topic... Has anyone read Taboo: Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We’re Afraid to Talk About It by Jon Entine?

http://run-down.com/guests/je_black_athletes_p1.php

Thanks, interesting article.