Phil Wood BB question

[SteveV0983]

I picked up a Phil Wood outboard bottom bracket for a new build and noticed that the outboard part of the cups are approx 1mm narrower than a standard Shimano BB. So my cranks will each be 1mm closer to the frame. I know 1mm sounds ridiculous, but I visually noticed it immediately so I'm wondering if it will have an effect. I am curious if I should expect any mechanical differences in shifting. For example, is there a better chance that I will get some cross chain rubbing when on the small chain ring and small cogs?
Just curious if anyone has used one of these and noticed any difference from a typical Shimano or King.

[bart998]

If the 1mm difference causes any trouble can't you just put a 1mm spacer on the threaded portion of the bb cups and move the Q-factor outward? Or for that matter a spacer on each end of the spindle?

[SteveV0983]

I would like that option, but I cannot seem to find any 1mm spacers. I called Phil Wood and they were of no use. Not only do they not have spacers, but they insist that their cups are deeper than Shimano cups even though I have both in front of me and the Shimano is deeper. Actually, I take back that first line. I did find these:
http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=2241&category=2634
but I didn't want to have to buy a bag of them if this is all irrelevant.

I also called Chris King and they said that their outboard cups have approx 12.9mm of "stack" as they called it, which is 1.9 more than the Ultegra (which is 11mm) and 2.9 more than the PW (which is 10mm).

I don't even know if I will have a problem, but it seemed logically possible and I was trying to see if anyone had any first hand experience before I install the PW and cannot return it.

[oldpotatoe]

I would like that option, but I cannot seem to find any 1mm spacers. I called Phil Wood and they were of no use. Not only do they not have spacers, but they insist that their cups are deeper than Shimano cups even though I have both in front of me and the Shimano is deeper. Actually, I take back that first line. I did find these:
http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=2241&category=2634
but I didn't want to have to buy a bag of them if this is all irrelevant.

I also called Chris King and they said that their outboard cups have approx 12.9mm of "stack" as they called it, which is 1.9 more than the Ultegra (which is 11mm) and 2.9 more than the PW (which is 10mm).

I don't even know if I will have a problem, but it seemed logically possible and I was trying to see if anyone had any first hand experience before I install the PW and cannot return it.

Have ya, you know, installed them to see if they work or not? Just a thought.

First gen shimano outboard BBs had 7mm width bearings, then they went to 6mm width...but construction and design made them OK. I doubt Phil would make something that required a couple of spacers, then not supply them.

[SteveV0983]

Have ya, you know, installed them to see if they work or not? Just a thought.

Obviously I have not installed them or I would have my answer. The problem is that, once I install them, I own them. At this point, I can still exchange it for a King or just return it and keep a Shimano.

[jds108]

Here are some spacers from a seller on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Taiwan-made-Bottom-Bracket-spacer-1mm-3-pieces-/290721703049?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43b05d2489

The only problem in my opinion with this option is that it can take a while for shipping.

I thought lower Q factor was supposed to be better. What's the concern with ending up with cranks closer to the centerline of the frame?

[SteveV0983]

My only concern (and this is only based on thought, not anything proven) is that by moving the chain rings closer to the frame I may get a small amount of rubbing of the chain on the large chain ring when I am on the small chain ring and a small cog. Currently, if I am on my small chain ring and my smallest cog (12t), the chain rubs the outer edge of the big chain ring. This does not bother me because I have always looked at the smallest cog as nothing more than a spacer. I rarely use it, but I do you the next cog (13t) quite often and I have no rubbing. My concern is that I may get some rubbing on the 13T by pulling the chain rings towards the frame.
Again, I must reiterate that this is all speculation and I made the original post to see if anyone had any first hand experience.
I never knew that all these bottom brackets changed your Q - I guess I thought there was something standardized about BBs, but I was wrong. As they say, you learn something new every day.

[jds108]

Steve,

Q factor never made any difference to me. I bought a no-name aftermarket BB for my current generation Ultegra cranks and I had to put a spacer between the frame and bb as the bb was so narrow. The nds crank arm wouldn't go up far enough on the spindle without moving that bb cup outwards. I don't have that bike with me so I can't give you any measurements.

I have had the chain rub when in the small/small combo. On bikes that were doing too much of this (10speed/11speed cranks with 9 speed setups), I bought some super thin chainring spacers. I think they were 0.7mm. That can lead to the chain slipping when in between the small and big rings, but I haven't had that particular problem come up.

None of this is really much trouble, it's just the time spent in going through the trial and error and waiting on the little parts to show up in the mail.

[SteveV0983]

Thanks for that input. I guess I'm leaning towards installing it and hoping for the best. If I do get some rubbing, I'll try what you said or I'll try the BB spacers that I linked to above.

[sean]

Just get freewheel spacers, they are the same diameter and work the same. I've done it several times with both outboard and standard Cup/Axle BBs.

I think Q carries them. You LBS should have them as well.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&safe=off&q=freewheel+spacer+1mm&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=2012&bih=1305&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=17497553526230128886&sa=X&ei=JIXjT-jXK9Kr2AWYvaDpBw&ved=0CFcQ8wIwAA

Wheels makes them as well, super cheap. I bag of a million is somewhere around $12, so you can imagine they don't cost much on their own.

[BdaGhisallo]

I had the same issue when I bought one of the PW outboard bb's when they first released them. I realised that they weren't as deep as the stock Shimano cups and called PW for advice. They flat out denied that there was any difference in stack/depth between their cups and Shimano's! I offered to send them a pic of the two side by side to see for themselves and they weren't interested! So, needless to say, they didn't offer any ideas on an issue that didn't exist in their eyes. That really pissed me off and lost all goodwill that they had with me. I was a big fan of their products but no more.

Take it back and go with a King BB if you want a step up from the stock Shimano. You can reload the grease to your heart's content and it's backed by a company that actually cares about its customers and wants to help them!!

[SteveV0983]

That's it Sean!!

I have my new cassette sitting here, took out the 1mm spacer that Shimano provides and slipped it over the BB and it fit perfect.

I'll see if my LBS has one or grab one from someone on line.

Thanks for the solution. Once the frame shows up I can mount it and only shim if I have to. Now if the frame would only show up........

[SteveV0983]

I had the same issue when I bought one of the PW outboard bb's when they first released them. I realised that they weren't as deep as the stock Shimano cups and called PW for advice. They flat out denied that there was any difference in stack/depth between their cups and Shimano's! I offered to send them a pic of the two side by side to see for themselves and they weren't interested! So, needless to say, they didn't offer any ideas on an issue that didn't exist in their eyes. That really pissed me off and lost all goodwill that they had with me. I was a big fan of their products but no more.

Take it back and go with a King BB if you want a step up from the stock Shimano. You can reload the grease to your heart's content and it's backed by a company that actually cares about its customers and wants to help them!!

Just curious, did you end up using the PW? And do you also have a King? If so, is the King the same thickness as the Shimano?

Thanks,
Steve

[BdaGhisallo]

No I never did use the PW. For one I didn't have any suitable spacers and I also found it really hard to thread the PW cups into my BB shell. Don't know if it was due to the stainless steel not liking the threads in the AL shell or what.

I do use a King BB and have them on three frames and they work great. As best I can tell, the Kings cups are the same depth/thickness as the Shimano. I have had to make no allowance or adjustment when going from the Shimano to the King cups.

[SteveV0983]

Sounds good. Thanks. I'm probably going to send back the Phil and switch it for a King. I agree that PW customer service was very condescending and King was very accommodating. And that goes a long way.

By the way, did you get the installation tool and grease injector? And are they worth it?

Thanks again,
Steve

[BdaGhisallo]

Yes I got both King tools. I tried other cup tools, but the King has a much better fit on their cups and that counts when you're really torquing on them.