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View Full Version : About Time Someone Sued Strava


tannhauser
06-18-2012, 04:37 PM
http://www.cyclelicio.us/2012/strava-lawsuit/

Bob Loblaw
06-18-2012, 04:42 PM
Ugh. Make it stop.

BL

arcadian
06-18-2012, 04:44 PM
What a joke.

gearguywb
06-18-2012, 04:46 PM
How dare someone not hold someone else's hand when they try out a new route. Frivilous.

velotel
06-18-2012, 04:47 PM
Insane! Only in america. Sure wouldn't want anyone to take responsibility for his or her own actions. Poor guy was led astray by times posted on a site and got killed. Seems to me they ought to just sue the inventor of computers, no, wait, watches, the inventor of watches, no wait, sue whoever invented time, yea! That's whose fault it is. Without time he/she never would have been tempted. Eliminate time and end of problem. My wife would also stop always being late. Lots of advantages with no time.

Keith A
06-18-2012, 05:04 PM
insane! Only in america. Sure wouldn't want anyone to take responsibility for his or her own actions. Poor guy was led astray by times posted on a site and got killed. Seems to me they ought to just sue the inventor of computers, no, wait, watches, the inventor of watches, no wait, sue whoever invented time, yea! That's whose fault it is. Without time he/she never would have been tempted. Eliminate time and end of problem. My wife would also stop always being late. Lots of advantages with no time.+1

mike p
06-18-2012, 05:07 PM
Totally ridiculous! How about holding the person that did the damage accountable? Or is the real reason for strava's being sued because they have deeper pockets. Same reason gun companies are sued when someone is shot. Stifles or muzzles innovation,

Mike

John H.
06-18-2012, 05:10 PM
I said it before- Strava chasing is for Ass Clowns

Gummee
06-18-2012, 05:20 PM
Totally ridiculous! How about holding the person that did the damage accountable? Or is the real reason for strava's being sued because they have deeper pockets. Same reason gun companies are sued when someone is shot. Stifles or muzzles innovation,

Mike

Muzzles innovation. Good one!

I really hope this gets tossed out long before it ever gets to court. :nod

M

54ny77
06-18-2012, 05:30 PM
strava is the youtube equivalent for the common sense challenged.

monkeybanana86
06-18-2012, 05:30 PM
I was wondering if this would ever happen.

Don't know the whole story and if the rider was being reckless but what I think:

Riding hard within your limits and with regard to the environment around you is more impressive and SAFER than riding crazy like blowing through lights and stop signs to get your name at the top of a list.

Be safe guys!

beeatnik
06-18-2012, 05:47 PM
Their new commercials were well done. They were the only commercials I didn't fast forward through while watching TDS off the dvr.

mossman
06-18-2012, 05:48 PM
the problem isnt "america"
the problem isnt necessarily the family of the deceased.

the problem is the thousands of money-hungry, manipulative attorneys looking to exploit an unfortunate situation for their own monetary gain.

Louis
06-18-2012, 05:56 PM
the problem isnt "america"
the problem isnt necessarily the family of the deceased.

the problem is the thousands of money-hungry, manipulative attorneys looking to exploit an unfortunate situation for their own monetary gain.

This is just as simple-minded and ridiculous as blaming Strava for the accident.

AngryScientist
06-18-2012, 06:00 PM
damn. i really like Strava too. i hope this ridiculous lawsuit doesnt wind up ruining the functionality of the site.

mossman
06-18-2012, 06:04 PM
This is just as simple-minded and ridiculous as blaming Strava for the accident.

oh yeah?

As someone that has been involved in a family tragedy, I had attorneys contact my family and cunningly attempt to convince us to sue. If there is money to be awarded, they'll try anything...even if there is no merit in the case. It's like fishing to them. I told them to get lost.

Newsflash: there are a ****-ton of sleazey lawyers out there.

Louis
06-18-2012, 06:09 PM
As someone that has been involved in a family tragedy, I had attorneys contact my family and cunningly attempt to convince us to sue.

Sorry to hear that, but it still doesn't mean that tort lawsuits are without merit.

ofcounsel
06-18-2012, 06:22 PM
the problem isnt "america"
the problem isnt necessarily the family of the deceased.

the problem is the thousands of money-hungry, manipulative attorneys looking to exploit an unfortunate situation for their own monetary gain.

I wish I lived in your world. It's so simple.

ofcounsel
06-18-2012, 06:24 PM
oh yeah?

As someone that has been involved in a family tragedy, I had attorneys contact my family and cunningly attempt to convince us to sue. If there is money to be awarded, they'll try anything...even if there is no merit in the case. It's like fishing to them. I told them to get lost.

Newsflash: there are a ****-ton of sleazey lawyers out there.

And tons of people all too willing to be "convinced".

I've been propositioned by prostitutes before. But I don't blame them after I bed them:eek:

John H.
06-18-2012, 06:29 PM
Wait until Rangers start using it to bust people for mountain biking on illegal trails too.

ergott
06-18-2012, 06:41 PM
There's nothing wrong with Strava. It's like any other tool.

Michelangelo used a hammer, look what he did. Some just hit their thumb with it and sue the hammer manufacturer.

ergott
06-18-2012, 06:43 PM
Alright, let's not get crazy with the lawyer talk and get this shut down? Civil discussion, right?

tannhauser
06-18-2012, 06:45 PM
Asshats will be asshats; dangle a carrot in front of an asshat...

Strava encourages drag racing on public streets.

Jaq
06-18-2012, 07:03 PM
It's all Al Gore's fault. D--n him and his interwebs.

ergott
06-18-2012, 07:05 PM
Asshats will be asshats; dangle a carrot in front of an asshat...

Strava encourages drag racing on public streets.

There were asshats riding like asshats before Strava. Strava doesn't encourage drag racing. Any reasonably intelligent person can figure out that most KOMS are from group rides/races anyway. Trying to KOM pack speeds on a solo effort is just plain silly. You can always flag a sector that is too dangerous.

Quite frankly, I think the only segments that are interesting are climbs anyway. If they eliminated the other junk I wouldn't miss it.

tannhauser
06-18-2012, 07:12 PM
There were asshats riding like asshats before Strava. Strava doesn't encourage drag racing. Any reasonably intelligent person can figure out that most KOMS are from group rides/races anyway. Trying to KOM pack speeds on a solo effort is just plain silly. You can always flag a sector that is too dangerous.

Quite frankly, I think the only segments that are interesting are climbs anyway. If they eliminated the other junk I wouldn't miss it.


Actually, it does encourage drag racing, hence the lawsuit. I've been following this story closely for a couple of years -- the guy was trying to see how close he could come to the top speeds down this particular descent which I know well.

There has been a lot of discussion with my guys lately about how effed Strava descents are, particularly down our mountains. A rider competes with himself sure, and if he's reaching a plateau Strava is that carrot.

There's plenty of anecdotal evidence guys try to bomb descents to get on the board because they can't otherwise.

Sorry, you are wrong to say Strava is ok for everyone in every circumstance.

Imagine a Strava for cars.

ergott
06-18-2012, 07:18 PM
Sorry, you are wrong to say Strava is ok for everyone in every circumstance.


Don't put words in my mouth.

Have you or anyone else you know try to flag the segments and inappropriate?

tannhauser
06-18-2012, 07:24 PM
Don't put words in my mouth.

Have you or anyone else you know try to flag the segments and inappropriate?

You're the one who said Strava is ok. I'm assuming now you meant that subjectively, in your opinion.

My group is on the same page -- we think it's stupid. But I certainly know some guys who look at the flagged sections as challenges. They aren't my friends, just some guys I run into at the shop.

Like I said, not everyone takes the Strava data the same way.

There is no hard evidence the guy who killed the ped in SF was actively trying to best a Strava time, but certainly he was on it and again, there is a lot of nodding when that is mentioned.

fourflys
06-18-2012, 07:25 PM
Actually, it does encourage drag racing, hence the lawsuit. I've been following this story closely for a couple of years -- the guy was trying to see how close he could come to the top speeds down this particular descent which I know well.

There has been a lot of discussion with my guys lately about how effed Strava descents are, particularly down our mountains. A rider competes with himself sure, and if he's reaching a plateau Strava is that carrot.

There's plenty of anecdotal evidence guys try to bomb descents to get on the board because they can't otherwise.

Sorry, you are wrong to say Strava is ok for everyone in every circumstance.

Imagine a Strava for cars.

and how is this any different than sitting around the coffee/beer table after a ride boasting about the top speed you hit on the descent using your Garmin data? Should we shut down Garmin now too? Sorry, but personal responsibility is where this is at...

christian
06-18-2012, 07:25 PM
This thread has taught me that Strava apparently has segments that are not climbs. Really? ***?

tannhauser
06-18-2012, 07:26 PM
and how is this any different than sitting around the coffee/beer table after a ride boasting about the top speed you hit on the descent using your Garmin data? Should we shut down Garmin now too? Sorry, but personal responsibility is where this is at...

You should have read my reply more carefully.

fourflys
06-18-2012, 07:28 PM
There is no hard evidence the guy who killed the ped in SF was actively trying to best a Strava time, but certainly he was on it and again, there is a lot of nodding when that is mentioned.

and THAT individual should be held accountable... should we shut down NASCAR or F1 races because all the idiots who think they're a professional driver when they leave a race and act like fools?

fourflys
06-18-2012, 07:33 PM
You should have read my reply more carefully.

I did...

you say you ride that descent, have you ever ridden faster than 30mph (the speed limit) down it? if so, who should have been responsible if you you were hurt? would you have sued the city because they didn't have someone out there actively telling you to slow down?

ofcounsel
06-18-2012, 07:36 PM
Actually, it does encourage drag racing, hence the lawsuit. I've been following this story closely for a couple of years -- the guy was trying to see how close he could come to the top speeds down this particular descent which I know well.

There has been a lot of discussion with my guys lately about how effed Strava descents are, particularly down our mountains. A rider competes with himself sure, and if he's reaching a plateau Strava is that carrot.

There's plenty of anecdotal evidence guys try to bomb descents to get on the board because they can't otherwise.

Sorry, you are wrong to say Strava is ok for everyone in every circumstance.

Imagine a Strava for cars.

Just because there is a lawsuit doesn't mean it's a fact that Strava "encourages" racing. It doesn't mean that Strava has done anything wrong or that they are negligent in any way.

Strava collects data and allows the data to be displayed. It's a tool for analysis.

Under your assumptions, bicycle companies should refrain from making faster, lighter bicycles, lest people be encouraged to race them. Oh my... the horror.

Let's stop selling beer when we're at it as well. Because folks might drink it and be encouraged to hit on people they regret doing so in the morning.

tannhauser
06-18-2012, 07:39 PM
I did...

you say you ride that descent, have you ever ridden faster than 30mph (the speed limit) down it? if so, who should have been responsible if you you were hurt? would you have sued the city because they didn't have someone out there actively telling you to slow down?

You didn't. I said an asshat will ride like an asshat, put a carrot in front of an asshat and he is goaded into going faster possibly.

Of course it's all about responsibility -- personal and corporate.

No way I would want my family suing anyone based upon my asshatness. I tell you, I've come out from a side trail onto that road...to have a guy fly by at over 55mph scares the bejesus out of me.

tannhauser
06-18-2012, 07:44 PM
Just because there is a lawsuit doesn't mean it's a fact that Strava "encourages" racing. It doesn't mean that Strava has done anything wrong or that they are negligent in any way.

Strava collects data and allows the data to be displayed. It's a tool for analysis.

Under your assumptions, bicycle companies should refrain from making faster, lighter bicycles, lest people be encouraged to race them. Oh my... the horror.

Let's stop selling beer when we're at it as well. Because folks might drink it and be encouraged to hit on people they regret doing so in the morning.

I don't necessarily disagree with you -- the question is interesting and will be played out in civil court.

The nanny state vs. live free. Mostly I'm for the latter but I'd like to see how the trial plays out.

This discussion reminds me of a strong movement in the 70s to limit horsepower and displacement on motorcycles because they had too much. I think it was like 50 hp/750cc. Wow, that was huge then.

AngryScientist
06-18-2012, 07:54 PM
i only use Strava myself, so i dont know: does Garmin Connect, or other internet based sharing programs do the same thing?

Jaq
06-18-2012, 07:55 PM
Somewhere out there is a Strava for cars. There's a form of "Strava" for everything competitive; even Strava covers not just cycling but running, too. I expect both sides of the lawsuit will look to previous cases involving such sites and cite them to their advantage.

It does seem that the attorneys are casting as wide a net as possible - but in our litigious society, that's not unexpected. It's also interesting that - in the couple articles that are clickable through the article linked by the OP - the rhetoric on the part of the Berkley paper seems very open to the idea that Strava is to be held accountable.

--Which isn't surprising given Berkeley's reputation as a more socially-involved, progressive community. If the lawsuit proceeds there, I wouldn't be surprised to see a verdict in the plaintiff's favor.

mossman
06-18-2012, 07:57 PM
Sorry to hear that, but it still doesn't mean that tort lawsuits are without merit.

...and I never said all lawsuits are without merit.

I am simply saying emotionally-manipulative lawyers seeking a payday is often the impetus of frivolous lawsuits such as this. A grieving family gets convinced by a smooth-talking wordsmith because they naively believe they will gain "closure" -- whatever that means.

mossman
06-18-2012, 08:02 PM
And tons of people all too willing to be "convinced".

I've been propositioned by prostitutes before. But I don't blame them after I bed them:eek:

...and that's a silly, incongruent analogy.

people should know better. people should not let grief cloud their judgment. but that is not to say that these lawyers are not greedy, manipulative a-holes clogging up the courts.

perhaps there are many lawyers on these forums. If so, I apologize :cool:

craptacular
06-18-2012, 09:07 PM
Jesse Anthony stole one of my KOMs a week ago, I am going to use every illegal PED there is to win it back and then sue him if something happens to me.

Earl Gray
06-18-2012, 11:01 PM
This is sad. I hope there is more to it than what's in the articles.

People Suck!

Vientomas
06-18-2012, 11:20 PM
...and I never said all lawsuits are without merit.

I am simply saying emotionally-manipulative lawyers seeking a payday is often the impetus of frivolous lawsuits such as this. A grieving family gets convinced by a smooth-talking wordsmith because they naively believe they will gain "closure" -- whatever that means.

The California Bar prohibits direct solicitation of clients. You assume that the attorney contacted the family and convinced them to file suit. I see no evidence of this, for all you know, the family sought out the attorney. If you have facts to the contrary, please provide them.

slidey
06-19-2012, 12:15 AM
Freakin idiots mocking their lost family member in this way. Now the whole world thinks that the guy was such a dick!

estilley
06-19-2012, 01:32 AM
I like Strava. And I like chasing the records!

-going to have the fastest time up Dearborn by the end of the summer

GuyGadois
06-19-2012, 02:11 AM
I dig Strava and I've been using it for a number of years. I have pre set segments that I use for my TT and to test my fitness on some local hills. It is extra motivation for me. My riding buddies ad I have some great competitions for KOMs and the trash talking is always fun. I think it is really strange people make blanket statements about how evil Strava is and how it has ruined cycling. But, to each his own.

GG

oldpotatoe
06-19-2012, 08:40 AM
Insane! Only in america. Sure wouldn't want anyone to take responsibility for his or her own actions. Poor guy was led astray by times posted on a site and got killed. Seems to me they ought to just sue the inventor of computers, no, wait, watches, the inventor of watches, no wait, sue whoever invented time, yea! That's whose fault it is. Without time he/she never would have been tempted. Eliminate time and end of problem. My wife would also stop always being late. Lots of advantages with no time.

Sue Newton afterall. Tragic the guy got killed, but like they article said, the lawsuit has no merit.

FlashUNC
06-19-2012, 10:04 AM
I consider it a minor miracle when I'm not last on a Strava segment.

keevon
06-19-2012, 10:19 AM
Here's a hot new website for people that want to race: http://www.usacycling.org/

thenewguy11
06-19-2012, 10:44 AM
I'm thinking about suing Strava for the mental anguish caused by comparing my times up my favorite climbs to other cyclists. Afterall, they are my favorite climbs and yet I'm not listed in first place. I'm trying my best, shouldn't that count for something?

merlincustom1
06-19-2012, 10:45 AM
Inrng has a great piece on the topic today. He posted a link to the fine print on the Strava licensing agreement we sign when we sign up for the service. Looks to be an iron clad assumption of the risk and waiver of liability defense for Strava, as it should be. Here's the link:

http://app.strava.com/terms#warranties_disclaimer

PJN
06-19-2012, 10:47 AM
Sounds like the dud died like an asshat. I bet his stem was too short and high too.

dauwhe
06-19-2012, 11:13 AM
I consider it a minor miracle when I'm not last on a Strava segment.

+1, although there's one segment where I'm both last and the KOM :)

cfox
06-19-2012, 11:38 AM
Strava awards "KOM's" for descending? Isn't that the opposite of what KOM means? If that is true, Strava is even lamer than I thought. (Lame or not, they shouldn't be held liable for any part of this tragedy).

fourflys
06-19-2012, 11:58 AM
Strava awards "KOM's" for descending? Isn't that the opposite of what KOM means? If that is true, Strava is even lamer than I thought. (Lame or not, they shouldn't be held liable for any part of this tragedy).


it not that they award a KOM for descending, it's they award a KOM for the fastest time on any segment I think... I don't think the software differentiates between uphill or downhill segments... I could be wrong though...

Jaq
06-19-2012, 12:14 PM
Sounds like the dud died like an asshat. I bet his stem was too short and high too.

Nice. Nil nisi bonum.

Puget Pounder
06-19-2012, 12:38 PM
Nice. Nil nisi bonum.

+1

Someone died here and we don't really know the circumstances. And also, the person isn't suing (because he is dead), the family is.

Just keep that in mind...

ClutchCargo
06-19-2012, 01:19 PM
I'm thinking about suing Strava for the mental anguish caused by comparing my times up my favorite climbs to other cyclists. Afterall, they are my favorite climbs and yet I'm not listed in first place. I'm trying my best, shouldn't that count for something?

Here's a tip: Gain some weight and age a little and create your own category. :banana:

redir
06-19-2012, 02:53 PM
This thread has taught me that Strava apparently has segments that are not climbs. Really? ***?

Me too. I had no idea. But oh man I sure could win some of these descents :eek:

I don't necessarily disagree with you -- the question is interesting and will be played out in civil court.

The nanny state vs. live free. Mostly I'm for the latter but I'd like to see how the trial plays out.

This discussion reminds me of a strong movement in the 70s to limit horsepower and displacement on motorcycles because they had too much. I think it was like 50 hp/750cc. Wow, that was huge then.
How is it the nanny state? This is an individual suing a company. Isn't that the very essence of freedumb?


---


So what happens now if some one on a Strava KOM cimb drops dead of a heart attack? Strava's fault? :no:

tannhauser
06-19-2012, 03:05 PM
Me too. I had no idea. But oh man I sure could win some of these descents :eek:


How is it the nanny state? This is an individual suing a company. Isn't that the very essence of freedumb?



Read my subsequent comment re: responsibility.

If the court decides for the plaintiff the "nanny state" isn't so much the federal or state government, but the newly-created self-regulatory one that the industry creates, to put a fine point on it.

Subsequent to this, actual laws may be drafted to limit publication of data, though I highly doubt it.

As I said, it will make for interesting findings during the civil trial.

Bob Loblaw
06-19-2012, 03:30 PM
Actually, it does encourage drag racing, hence the lawsuit. I've been following this story closely for a couple of years -- the guy was trying to see how close he could come to the top speeds down this particular descent which I know well.

And the USAC?

>snip<

[QUOTE=tannhauser;1157436]Imagine a Strava for cars.

The SCCA?

tannhauser
06-19-2012, 03:41 PM
[QUOTE=tannhauser;1157436]Actually, it does encourage drag racing, hence the lawsuit. I've been following this story closely for a couple of years -- the guy was trying to see how close he could come to the top speeds down this particular descent which I know well.

And the USAC?

>snip<



The SCCA?

Those are sanctioned, closed-course events.

redir
06-19-2012, 03:46 PM
BTW 10mph over the limit is nothing really. How did they know he was 10mph over the limit? What was the nature of the accident? Sounds to me like some one pulled out in front of him. Was the driver sued?

Jaq
06-19-2012, 04:16 PM
BTW 10mph over the limit is nothing really. How did they know he was 10mph over the limit? What was the nature of the accident? Sounds to me like some one pulled out in front of him. Was the driver sued?

10 mph over the limit was, in this case, about 40 miles an hour or so. Since kinetic energy is directly proportional to the square of the velocity, the speed was lethal. I think they got the information from his own GPS/Garmin system. @ 40 miles per hour, a rider's kinetic energy is ~1.7 times (almost double) what it is at 30 miles per hour. (@ 30mph (48kph), a 70kg rider has a kinetic energy of 80,640 kg-m^2/s^2. At 40 mph, the kinetic energy is 143,360 kg-m^2/s^2.)

No, the driver wasn't sued (at least, not according to the article). The cyclist drifted across into oncoming traffic and struck the left-side of an SUV. The driver - a woman, I believe - stayed with the cyclist until he was choppered to a nearby hospital, where he was pronounced DOA.

Since this was two years ago, and the case is only now coming up, it probably has a lot to do with statutes of limitation; the family & lawyers may have had to either had to sue now, or never be able to.


Edit: A 40-year-old Oakland man was killed while riding his bicycle in Tilden Regional Park on Saturday, East Bay Regional Park District police said.

William Flint II was riding downhill on South Park Drive near the Grizzly picnic area at about 2 p.m. when his bicycle drifted into oncoming traffic, police said.

He crashed into the side of a 2003 Ford Expedition sport utility vehicle.

The driver of the SUV, with help from an on-duty park employee, rendered aid while they waited for paramedics to arrive.

Flint was taken by helicopter to John Muir Medical Center in Walnut Creek, where he was pronounced dead, police said.

tannhauser
06-19-2012, 06:04 PM
BTW 10mph over the limit is nothing really. How did they know he was 10mph over the limit? What was the nature of the accident? Sounds to me like some one pulled out in front of him. Was the driver sued?

The road is in the East Bay Regional Park District; the driver pulled out from a picnic area from which the sight lines aren't great.

Frankly the speed limit should be 25 mph max in the entire park due to numerous pull outs, motorcycle, car and bike traffic.

I can't see citing the driver in this case.

BTW the news article above has it different from the initial report.

tannhauser
06-19-2012, 06:18 PM
Here's the Strava segment in question, leader board info removed:

http://app.strava.com/segments/304329

I can't remember what the record was, but guys hit 60 close to the bottom.

1centaur
06-19-2012, 06:55 PM
The interaction of human nature with data, and data is to blame. I wonder how that could be extrapolated?

He flashed a $100 bill so I had to rob him - he could see I was poor.

The body fat scale said 28%, which depressed her so much she killed herself. Tanita should have limited that number to 16%+.

I scored a 10 on the Ugly Meter Pro so he left me without paying for my college.


So short a life, and so many people to blame.

Louis
06-19-2012, 06:56 PM
Unless there are tight turns (in which case > 50 mph is insane) trying to set a record going down is pretty stupid, because it's just mass and drag, no real ability involved.

For that sort of segment I would think setting a record going up would be way more meaningful.

tannhauser
06-19-2012, 07:05 PM
Unless there are tight turns (in which case > 50 mph is insane) trying to set a record going down is pretty stupid, because it's just mass and drag, no real ability involved.

For that sort of segment I would think setting a record going up would be way more meaningful.

The first part going downhill is fast enough, then there's a series of tight esses; I think that's where the accident occurred with Flint going wide to either set up the turns or upon exit. The first one, iirc, is blind to the right.

Forget Strava times; it doesn't matter what gearing you have. The top part is HARD going up.

Jason E
06-19-2012, 07:33 PM
The first part going downhill is fast enough, then there's a series of tight esses; I think that's where the accident occurred with Flint going wide to either set up the turns or upon exit. The first one, iirc, is blind to the right.

Forget Strava times; it doesn't matter what gearing you have. The top part is HARD going up.

So here you say it... Forget Strava, rider riding beyond his limit in a challenging road section and disobeying traffic laws accidentally drifts into traffic.

You honestly believe this is the fault of a website? You better be careful searching the web if you are that easily influenced.

tannhauser
06-19-2012, 07:36 PM
So here you say it... Forget Strava, rider riding beyond his limit in a challenging road section and disobeying traffic laws accidentally drifts into traffic.

You honestly believe this is the fault of a website? You better be careful searching the web if you are that easily influenced.

Once again, I'll refer you to an earlier comment I made regarding responsibility.

Uh, no. Louis said something about getting an uphill kom being noteworthy, and it would.

I'm saying it would be noteworthy just to be able to ride it, as a lot of guys have to walk to the top.

ergott
06-19-2012, 08:46 PM
Once again, I'll refer you to an earlier comment I made regarding responsibility.


You mean this?

"About Time Someone Sued Strava"

Bob Loblaw
06-19-2012, 08:49 PM
Neither USAC road races nor SCCA rallies are closed to traffic. They take place on public roads replete with cars, pedestrians, buses, trucks etc.

BL



Those are sanctioned, closed-course events.

tannhauser
06-19-2012, 08:50 PM
You mean this?

"About Time Someone Sued Strava"

Yup. One of them.

The legal system is ideally about fact finding and the vetting process. There is, unfortunately, not another way to determine if particular ideas have merit in this day of ambulance chasers and absolution of personal responsibility.

Unlike random internet chatter, which tends to be emotional.

I predict, if the case goes to trial, the rider will be found to be largely responsible, with a small % going to Strava.

This is not a 100% rider fault or 100% Strava fault scenario.

tannhauser
06-19-2012, 08:52 PM
Neither USAC road races nor SCCA rallies are closed to traffic. They take place on public roads replete with cars, pedestrians, buses, trucks etc.

BL

Okay, my misunderstanding. But...if someone wanders onto the course and gets killed there may very well be a legitimate law suit filed.

choke
06-19-2012, 09:18 PM
This is not a 100% rider fault or 100% Strava fault scenario. It's absolutely 100% rider fault. No one held a gun to his head and forced him to ride in an unsafe manner....that decision was completely his own.

Jason E
06-19-2012, 09:23 PM
This is ridiculous. You are talking about responsibility, yet you refuse to put it squarely on the adult operating the bicycle. Any actions carried out by a rider on public roads riding beyond their capabilities and then blamed back on a website is absurd.

How many lawsuits should Youtube be litigating following this logic?

ADULT cyclist on a PUBLIC ROAD is RESPONSIBLE for his or her own actions. He was not hazed. He was not forced or coerced. Are you calling him too stupid to ignore the taunts of peer pressure even in the face of serious harm? If that is the case, we would normally write that off to natural selection and file it with stories that have, "Here, watch this..." and/or "here, hold my beer.."

Strava is not culpable in this any more than me telling you that I will fully take on all of your positions as my own and defend them vehemently as soon as you burn down your home and jump off the Golden Gate.

tannhauser
06-19-2012, 09:24 PM
This is ridiculous. You are talking about responsibility, yet you refuse to put it squarely on the adult operating the bicycle. Any actions carried out by a rider on public roads riding beyond their capabilities and then blamed back on a website is absurd.

How many lawsuits should Youtube be litigating following this logic?

ADULT cyclist on a PUBLIC ROAD is RESPONSIBLE for his or her own actions. He was not hazed. He was not forced or coerced. Are you calling him too stupid to ignore the taunts of peer pressure even in the face of serious harm? If that is the case, we would normally write that off to natural selection and file it with stories that have, "Here, watch this..." and/or "here, hold my beer.."

Strava is not culpable in this any more than me telling you that I will fully take on all of your positions as my own and defend them vehemently as soon as you burn down your home and jump off the Golden Gate.

That is your opinion. The courts shall decide.

BTW I'm mostly interested if the judge talks about public safety and its protection from negligent riding; if there is no discussion of it in his/her judgement I think all this finger pointing is for naught.

azrider
06-19-2012, 09:27 PM
I guess this wasn't coincidental:

Updated terms and conditions at Strava

We've updated our terms and conditions, and we're doing everything we can to get the word out. You'll also see a notice on your dashboard when you log in to strava.com, and we've posted to our blog as well.

What's changed? We've grown a lot and have expanded our products and services since our terms were last updated. The updated terms clarify things related to our mobile apps, as well as real-world races and events that you might participate in that use Strava's site.

That short description isn't meant to be a substitute for the real deal, so please take the time to read the revised terms and conditions found at strava.com/terms. If you use one of our mobile apps, please download the latest version to access the updated terms from inside the app. Then, get back out there and go for a ride or a run.

Thanks,
The team at Strava

Note: You are receiving this email because you have an account with Strava. There's no option to opt-out because this is a critical account update. We send them rarely!

tannhauser
06-19-2012, 09:34 PM
I guess this wasn't coincidental:

Updated terms and conditions at Strava

We've updated our terms and conditions, and we're doing everything we can to get the word out. You'll also see a notice on your dashboard when you log in to strava.com, and we've posted to our blog as well.

What's changed? We've grown a lot and have expanded our products and services since our terms were last updated. The updated terms clarify things related to our mobile apps, as well as real-world races and events that you might participate in that use Strava's site.

That short description isn't meant to be a substitute for the real deal, so please take the time to read the revised terms and conditions found at strava.com/terms. If you use one of our mobile apps, please download the latest version to access the updated terms from inside the app. Then, get back out there and go for a ride or a run.

Thanks,
The team at Strava

Note: You are receiving this email because you have an account with Strava. There's no option to opt-out because this is a critical account update. We send them rarely!

Beat me to it -- just got it. Don't know if this clause is the same as the old:

Indemnity
You agree to indemnify and hold Strava and its subsidiaries, affiliates, officers, agents, representatives, employees, partners and licensors harmless from any claim or demand, including reasonable attorneys' fees, made by any third party due to or arising out of Content you submit, post, transmit or otherwise seek to make available through the Site, your use of the Site, your athletic activities which generate the Content you post or seek to post on the Site (including, but not limited to, athletic activities in connection with any contests, races, group rides, or other events which Strava sponsors, organizes, participates in, or whose Site is used in connection with), your connection to the Site, your violation of the Terms, or your violation of any rights of another person or entity.

Jason E
06-19-2012, 09:39 PM
This is barely a thread, this is you talking.

Enjoy, I'll be elsewhere.

PJN
06-19-2012, 09:46 PM
it's absolutely 100% rider fault. No one held a gun to his head and forced him to ride in an unsafe manner....that decision was completely his own.

we have a winner.

TMB
06-19-2012, 09:57 PM
Beat me to it -- just got it. Don't know if this clause is the same as the old:

Indemnity
You agree to indemnify and hold Strava and its subsidiaries, affiliates, officers, agents, representatives, employees, partners and licensors harmless from any claim or demand, including reasonable attorneys' fees, made by any third party due to or arising out of Content you submit, post, transmit or otherwise seek to make available through the Site, your use of the Site, your athletic activities which generate the Content you post or seek to post on the Site (including, but not limited to, athletic activities in connection with any contests, races, group rides, or other events which Strava sponsors, organizes, participates in, or whose Site is used in connection with), your connection to the Site, your violation of the Terms, or your violation of any rights of another person or entity.

I remember as a youth having to visit a grand uncle of mine.

I didn't matter what you said, he would pick a fight. It's Tuesday. Nope, it's Wednesday.

It's black, nope it's white.

Any subject, any time. He picked a fight. It was his favourite thing.

No one in the family liked to visit him, because he always picked a fight.

I sort of feel like Uncle George has come back.

tannhauser
06-19-2012, 09:59 PM
I remember as a youth having to visit a grand uncle of mine.

I didn't matter what you said, he would pick a fight. It's Tuesday. Nope, it's Wednesday.

It's black, nope it's white.

Any subject, any time. He picked a fight. It was his favourite thing.

No one in the family liked to visit him, because he always picked a fight.

I sort of feel like Uncle George has come back.

Funny, I thought we were just discussing things. I'm not fighting anything. Sorry you misunderstand.

CunegoFan
06-19-2012, 10:12 PM
Beat me to it -- just got it. Don't know if this clause is the same as the old:

Indemnity
You agree to indemnify and hold Strava and its subsidiaries, affiliates, officers, agents, representatives, employees, partners and licensors harmless from any claim or demand, including reasonable attorneys' fees, made by any third party due to or arising out of Content you submit, post, transmit or otherwise seek to make available through the Site, your use of the Site, your athletic activities which generate the Content you post or seek to post on the Site (including, but not limited to, athletic activities in connection with any contests, races, group rides, or other events which Strava sponsors, organizes, participates in, or whose Site is used in connection with), your connection to the Site, your violation of the Terms, or your violation of any rights of another person or entity.

Section 23109 of the California Vehicle Code

23109. (a) A person shall not engage in a motor vehicle speed contest on a highway. As used in this section, a motor vehicle speed contest includes a motor vehicle race against another vehicle, a clock, or other timing device. For purposes of this section, an event in which the time to cover a prescribed route of more than 20 miles is measured, but where the vehicle does not exceed the speed limits, is not a speed contest.
(b) A person shall not aid or abet in any motor vehicle speed contest on any highway.
(c) A person shall not engage in a motor vehicle exhibition of speed on a highway, and a person shall not aid or abet in a motor vehicle exhibition of speed on any highway

Aiding and abeting a race against a clock seems pretty clear here. You cannot sign that away.

ofcounsel
06-19-2012, 10:59 PM
Section 23109 of the California Vehicle Code

23109. (a) A person shall not engage in a motor vehicle speed contest on a highway. As used in this section, a motor vehicle speed contest includes a motor vehicle race against another vehicle, a clock, or other timing device. For purposes of this section, an event in which the time to cover a prescribed route of more than 20 miles is measured, but where the vehicle does not exceed the speed limits, is not a speed contest.
(b) A person shall not aid or abet in any motor vehicle speed contest on any highway.
(c) A person shall not engage in a motor vehicle exhibition of speed on a highway, and a person shall not aid or abet in a motor vehicle exhibition of speed on any highway

Aiding and abeting a race against a clock seems pretty clear here. You cannot sign that away.

A bicycle is not a motor vehicle under California law.

martinrjensen
06-19-2012, 11:50 PM
I think we had the same uncle only he was cast as a step father to me.I remember as a youth having to visit a grand uncle of mine.

I didn't matter what you said, he would pick a fight. It's Tuesday. Nope, it's Wednesday.

It's black, nope it's white.

Any subject, any time. He picked a fight. It was his favourite thing.

No one in the family liked to visit him, because he always picked a fight.

I sort of feel like Uncle George has come back.

slidey
06-20-2012, 12:10 AM
What a damned sight it is to see there are people who actually think the idiots suing Strava have any legitimate reason!

slidey
06-20-2012, 12:15 AM
If you're not mature enough to ride safely whilst setting strava records, then it's one of the following:

1. You're not good enough,
2. You don't get the purpose of Strava,
3. You shouldn't be riding at all if you can't ride safely,
4. If you're still riding thinking Strava is going to pay off your child's educational loans then by Darwin's theory, you're past your evolution period.

velotel
06-20-2012, 06:36 AM
It isn't about right or wrong or who's at fault. It's Las Vegas, yank the arm down, maybe you hit the jackpot, maybe you don't. If it screws Strava or somebody, so what! That's life. If nothing comes out the slot, that's the game. Move on. Dying is just another business.

Rueda Tropical
06-20-2012, 06:49 AM
what a damned sight it is to see there are people who actually think the idiots suing strava have any legitimate reason!

+1

gearguywb
06-20-2012, 06:52 AM
Sure hope no one's coffee is hot and they spill it this morning. Sue the coffee maker!

Oh, that's right...that's been done.

Our court system is unfortunately rampant with this type of suit. Everyone wants to blame someone. "It can't be MY fault" type of theory.

cycle_chic
06-20-2012, 07:13 AM
Sure hope no one's coffee is hot and they spill it this morning. Sue the coffee maker!

Oh, that's right...that's been done.

Our court system is unfortunately rampant with this type of suit. Everyone wants to blame someone. "It can't be MY fault" type of theory.

I dunno. Whenever I order a hot drink from a place, I don't expect it to give me third-degree burns if I accidentally spill it. I understand what you're saying about some cases being really frivolous, but I'm not sure the hot coffee case was one of them (if that's indeed the case you're referencing--My mistake if it's not).

But I agree with you regarding this case in the sense that I don't believe Strava is at fault. As others have said, he was an adult who seems to have made a bad decision that ended poorly for him.

Then again, I'm biased--I think Strava is a pretty fun tool.

Bob Loblaw
06-20-2012, 07:56 AM
That's beside the point. If someone involved in a USAC event on public roads is killed (happened earlier this year in my area, in fact, but the family did NOT sue) or injured, according to your reasoning, USAC is liable for encouraging people to compete, to go fast. If that's the case, cycling is doomed and will shortly be outlawed, along with smoking and obesity, as having too high a social cost.

There are instances of real negligence or malice that warrant a lawsuit. There are also times when you take a risk, shizzle happens and you just have to put on your big girl panties and own it. I feel badly for everyone involved, but whether the guy fully appreciated the risks of cycling at speed or not, he accepted them, and there's no one else to blame.

BL

Okay, my misunderstanding. But...if someone wanders onto the course and gets killed there may very well be a legitimate law suit filed.

oldpotatoe
06-20-2012, 08:46 AM
Sure hope no one's coffee is hot and they spill it this morning. Sue the coffee maker!

Oh, that's right...that's been done.

Our court system is unfortunately rampant with this type of suit. Everyone wants to blame someone. "It can't be MY fault" type of theory.

True story-

Gent flew into a small airport at dusk. His cockpit lights didn't work. He went into a local flying biz to get a flashlight. Took off..people on the ground mentioned he looked, acted and smelled drunk. He crashed about 6 miles from the airport. Wife sued the aircraft manufacturer, the local flying service and the flashlight maker. She won most of these lawsuits....

And the bicycle lawsuit. Used bicycle, QR was loose, wheel came out, rider killed. Lawsuit against the bicycle maker and QR maker-won. WHY we have lawyer lips today.

Sue somebody. The costs of going to court are larger than the $ to settle out of court. Reality, no matter how much it blows.

Rueda Tropical
06-20-2012, 08:54 AM
They may as well sue the guy who sold him a "racing" bike knowing he would use it on public roads and the helmet manufacturer because the false sense of security it gave him probably encouraged him to go faster, etc...

What a joke. I'm all for litigation if a company allows a dangerous product out to protect the bottom line -like a car with faulty brakes or a power company poisoning your water supply. But this is really over the line.

slidey
06-20-2012, 11:47 AM
What a sad reminder of the pathetic sense of lawfulness we choose to live with.

True story-

Gent flew into a small airport at dusk. His cockpit lights didn't work. He went into a local flying biz to get a flashlight. Took off..people on the ground mentioned he looked, acted and smelled drunk. He crashed about 6 miles from the airport. Wife sued the aircraft manufacturer, the local flying service and the flashlight maker. She won most of these lawsuits....

tannhauser
06-20-2012, 12:40 PM
That's beside the point. If someone involved in a USAC event on public roads is killed (happened earlier this year in my area, in fact, but the family did NOT sue) or injured, according to your reasoning, USAC is liable for encouraging people to compete, to go fast. If that's the case, cycling is doomed and will shortly be outlawed, along with smoking and obesity, as having too high a social cost.

There are instances of real negligence or malice that warrant a lawsuit. There are also times when you take a risk, shizzle happens and you just have to put on your big girl panties and own it. I feel badly for everyone involved, but whether the guy fully appreciated the risks of cycling at speed or not, he accepted them, and there's no one else to blame.

BL

I think "cycling is doomed" is stretching it a bit but it will be interesting to see if the case has merit.

CunegoFan
06-20-2012, 01:19 PM
But I agree with you regarding this case in the sense that I don't believe Strava is at fault. As others have said, he was an adult who seems to have made a bad decision that ended poorly for him.


Screw the guy who died descdending but what about the woman who hit him? She will have to live with that the rest of her life. What about the pedestrian killed in San Francisco by an idiot who was blowing through stops while trying to get brownie points on Strava? It is only a matter of time before his family sues. What about the hikers who now have to risk getting injured by idiot mountain bikers descending multi-use trails while trying to get downhill Strava KOMs? There have always been idiot mountain bikers but now Strava gives them an incentive to be idiots and there are a lot more of them.

If segments are crowd sourced then it is trivial to require multiple users to vouch for the safety of the segment. It is also not hard to have a hardline rule that any segment that includes stops is to be deemed unsafe and vouching for such a route is a bannable offense. Downhill segments can be programmatically rejected.

Elefantino
06-20-2012, 01:22 PM
I have had to click through seven pages of this thread and now my pointer finger is sprained.

I hope Serotta has deep pockets.

Oh, wait.

Do I have to sue BBD instead?

ClutchCargo
06-20-2012, 01:30 PM
I think "cycling is doomed" is stretching it a bit but it will be interesting to see if the case has merit.

The case has no merit. It will be thrown out by the judge.

PQJ
06-20-2012, 02:16 PM
Do I have to sue BBD instead?

If you like BBD at all, might I suggest you sue the other mods and the forum's financial sponsor as well? That way you can save BBD the trouble of having to add them as co-defendants after the fact.

keevon
06-20-2012, 02:31 PM
if segments are crowd sourced then it is trivial to require multiple users to vouch for the safety of the segment. It is also not hard to have a hardline rule that any segment that includes stops is to be deemed unsafe and vouching for such a route is a bannable offense. downhill segments can be programmatically rejected.

yes.

charliedid
06-20-2012, 04:12 PM
Just remember it's not only the cyclists themselves that are being put at risk of injury and death.

Can't stop it.

Freds encouraging Freds...

Rada
06-20-2012, 04:29 PM
Personally I think Strava better have deep pockets.

Louis
06-20-2012, 04:32 PM
Personally I think Strava better have deep pockets.

If the details are as we have heard them here, no jury in their right mind would hold Strava responsible for this accident.

CunegoFan
06-20-2012, 04:36 PM
If the details are as we have heard them here, no jury in their right mind would hold Strava responsible for this accident.

What about the inevitable lawsuit from the family of the pedestrian killed in San Francisco? Few people will have sympathy for an idiot who killed himself racing downhill but innocent, uninvolved people getting killed is whole different story.

Rada
06-20-2012, 04:42 PM
If the details are as we have heard them here, no jury in their right mind would hold Strava responsible for this accident.

Really? What country are you from? My money is on an out of court settlement with Strava not having to accept any blame.

Rada
06-20-2012, 04:46 PM
What about the inevitable lawsuit from the family of the pedestrian killed in San Francisco? Few people will have sympathy for an idiot who killed himself racing downhill but innocent, uninvolved people getting killed are whole different story.

Yeah I think this is the one that really bites them. Keep thinking what happens when a kid is killed by one of these asshats.

charliedid
06-20-2012, 04:50 PM
What about the inevitable lawsuit from the family of the pedestrian killed in San Francisco? Few people will have sympathy for an idiot who killed himself racing downhill but innocent, uninvolved people getting killed are whole different story.

Yep

charliedid
06-20-2012, 04:51 PM
Yeah I think this is the one that really bites them. Keep thinking what happens when a kid is killed by one of these asshats.

yep yep

Louis
06-20-2012, 05:30 PM
What about the inevitable lawsuit from the family of the pedestrian killed in San Francisco?

I don't know anything about that incident.

Keith A
06-20-2012, 05:37 PM
I don't know anything about that incident.
I think this is that incident...
http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/crime/2012/06/witness-blames-pace-biker-charged-felony-manslaughter#ixzz1xz5zpalW

Louis
06-20-2012, 05:49 PM
I think this is that incident...
http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/crime/2012/06/witness-blames-pace-biker-charged-felony-manslaughter#ixzz1xz5zpalW

It not clear to me what that has to do with Strava.

If the quote below is correct, and the "racer" was using a Timex to record the ride time, would the watch manufacturer be held liable? Or maybe Cateye / Sigma / whoever built his cyclocomputer?

In this case the victim was not the one making the dumb-ass decisions, and that might make all the difference to a jury, but the bottom line is who's making the critical decisions.

How many times have we complained here, and on other cycling forums about "racers" dangerously blowing through STOP signs and red lights? It happens all time, on practically every group ride in this country. That's clearly the issue, not the technology by which the miscreant happens to be measuring his/her speed and comparing it to others.

Before the deadly crash, Bucchere was allegedly trying to beat his own speed record on a popular cycling route from Marin County to San Francisco.

Rada
06-20-2012, 06:08 PM
That technology posted times to beat that clearly violated laws. It also posts emails to let you know your time has been beaten and encourages you to go out and get your time back. A Timex does not do this.

ofcounsel
06-20-2012, 06:39 PM
Really? What country are you from? My money is on an out of court settlement with Strava not having to accept any blame.

Really... What you are suggesting often happens even if no jury would find Strava responsible. Often times, the time and expense of going to trial, even to be proven right, is more expensive than settling a case without admission of liability.

CunegoFan
06-20-2012, 07:03 PM
It not clear to me what that has to do with Strava.

The rider was a Strava user. On a forum he talked about getting free coffee from what I assume is a bike shop that also serves coffee for winning a Strava segment.

This is a pic of the segment named the "Castro Street Bomb," later renamed to "Castro Street Descent," where the pedestrian was killed.

http://eventhorizon1984.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8354a95b369e2016303e7aa5f970d-320wi

In this case the victim was not the one making the dumb-ass decisions, and that might make all the difference to a jury, but the bottom line is who's making the critical decisions.

Encouraging others to make stupid decisions will likely get you sued.

1centaur
06-20-2012, 07:04 PM
If we take as a predicate that the Serotta forum posters as a group are both more logical and more sympathetic to cycling/cyclists than the average jury member, I think it's clear that a random jury hearing the case argued a certain way and not hearing the right defense might well find Strava partially liable. There are two reasons for this: Americans are emotional compromisers by nature, and lawyers can skillfully make the inescapable connection between Strava's actions and the events that occurred ("if Strava had not posted those times, this man would not have died, I think we have made that clear."). In that vacuum, those without the proper perspective may incorrectly hold Strava liable.

The right defense is one of analogy. The jury must be taught that if the guilty Strava logic holds, then the guilty YouTube and guilty Google logic holds. With enough examples, even compromisers without logical minds will perceive the ridiculousness of the lawsuit; perhaps they can be given examples where they themselves would be held liable for giving someone data ("hey, I rode that segment in 3:29, bet you can't beat that") so that their natural self-defense mechanism will help them see the light. For another example, if competitors in a charity race wear a timing chip to accurately record time, and one of them pushes too hard to get a good time and dies of a heart attack, should the race and the timing chip maker be sued?

On whether Strava should take legal responsibility for the safety of segments by setting up rules for vouching and all that, uh, no, their lawyers would stop them from being that dumb. They might flag segments with stop signs (if they even know) and suggest that relative times on stop signed segments are not meaningful, but segments vouched as safe can become unsafe for lots of reasons and Strava can't have any implied seal of approval on various stretches of the planet.

gearguywb
06-20-2012, 07:16 PM
Using the same logic that Strava may be somehow at fault...my widow will need to sue Garmin after I die of a heart attack while riding my bike. My Garmin said I wasn't working hard enough so then I.....

Louis
06-20-2012, 07:43 PM
That technology posted times to beat that clearly violated laws. It also posts emails to let you know your time has been beaten and encourages you to go out and get your time back. A Timex does not do this.

I only just heard about Strava a few days ago. I don't know anything about it and how it functions, either as route mapping device or an incentive and/or motivation to go out and kill people via irresponsible behavior. This is all new to me.

I guess I'll have to take your work that it really does do that.

Rada
06-20-2012, 07:46 PM
But does Garmin incourage you to break the law? Could be a big difference to a jury of non cyclist.

CunegoFan
06-20-2012, 08:10 PM
I only just heard about Strava a few days ago. I don't know anything about it and how it functions, either as route mapping device or an incentive and/or motivation to go out and kill people via irresponsible behavior. This is all new to me.

I guess I'll have to take your work that it really does do that.

When bumped from a KOM, which is not necessarily a climb, you get emails like this:

"You just lost your KOM on XXXX to YYYY by 3 seconds.

Better get out there and show him who’s boss!

-Your friends at Strava"

firerescuefin
06-20-2012, 08:15 PM
If there was ever a post that needs to be "put down" this is it. Nothing new under the sun.

TMB
06-20-2012, 08:26 PM
For the love of mercy, really ...

Another thread about this?

Louis
06-20-2012, 08:29 PM
Better get out there and show him who’s boss!

-Your friends at Strava"

With friends like that...

For all the whining, I guess all we can do, given the system we have, is let the lawyers hash it out in front of a jury or in an out-of-court settlement.

If I were King and got to adjudicate everything I'm sure the world would be a better place, but I'm not.

Rada
06-20-2012, 09:06 PM
Section 23109 of the California Vehicle Code

23109. (a) A person shall not engage in a motor vehicle speed contest on a highway. As used in this section, a motor vehicle speed contest includes a motor vehicle race against another vehicle, a clock, or other timing device. For purposes of this section, an event in which the time to cover a prescribed route of more than 20 miles is measured, but where the vehicle does not exceed the speed limits, is not a speed contest.
(b) A person shall not aid or abet in any motor vehicle speed contest on any highway.
(c) A person shall not engage in a motor vehicle exhibition of speed on a highway, and a person shall not aid or abet in a motor vehicle exhibition of speed on any highway

Aiding and abeting a race against a clock seems pretty clear here. You cannot sign that away.

Someone pointed out that under CA law a bike is not a motor vehicle. I am not a lawyer, but could it not be argued that the intent of the law is to prevent illegal racing on public roads?

benitosan1972
06-20-2012, 10:21 PM
First, we needed someone to tell us that it's not healthy to drink more than 64oz's of soda, then not to Super-size at McDonalds, then that smoking cigarettes causes cancer, then not to drive drunk, then to wear a seatbelt and not to exceed 70mph, and now... don't die chasing a Strava segment

Yeah, human beings are an intelligent creature! ;)

ofcounsel
06-20-2012, 10:32 PM
Someone pointed out that under CA law a bike is not a motor vehicle. I am not a lawyer, but could it not be argued that the intent of the law is to prevent illegal racing on public roads?

You could argue the point, but it would not likely be persuasive...

California law defines a "vehicle" to mean: "a device by which any person or property may be propelled, moved, or drawn upon a highway, excepting a device moved exclusively by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks."

If the legislature meant the particular vehicle code section that was cited earlier to apply to bicycles, they could have written it as such.

BTW... I am a lawyer :)

azrider
06-21-2012, 10:44 AM
Poor timing for Dan Wuori's article in back of recent issue of VN.

torquer
06-29-2012, 11:18 AM
Saw this on Bike Rumor this morning:
http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/06/28/use-strava-get-sued/

Interesting twist: "What does that mean? That means that if you do something and Strava gets sued as a result, you agree to not only pay Strava’s legal fees…you also pay any judgment entered against them."

Another reason I'm a proud "late adaptor."