How Much Lighting is too Much Lighting?

[Aaron O]

As some of you folks know, i was hit by a car a few months ago and have spent a lot of time thinking about how I might have avoided it. The driver was clearly negligent, hitting me while I was stopped at a red light. I had lighting that I thought was adequate to city commuting, a 2 watt LED from Planet Bike. I was directly under a street sign when hit, so clearly she was distracted (by her own statement at the time of incident). Still - while I know it was her fault, a large part of me is wondering if better lighting might have made the difference.

Accordingly I bought the light and motion 360 VIS and mounted it on my wife's helmet. It's clearly stronger than what I've used before, but there is stronger front lighting on the market. The light and motion put out a beam I thought was POWERFUL, to the point where I'm worried that it's height and strength might blind drivers. I'm looking for insight - whether as a driver or cyclist - is there a point where lighting becomes dangerous and irresponsible?

[tuxbailey]

I use a magishine 900 as my front light and also a PlanetBike Superflash in the back during my commute.

During daylight I switch the magicshine to SOS mode. I think if a driver doesn't notice that thenI don't think there is much I could do.

[Aaron O]

I use a magishine 900 as my front light and also a PlanetBike Superflash in the back during my commute.

During daylight I switch the magicshine to SOS mode. I think if a driver doesn't notice that thenI don't think there is much I could do.

I use the superflash turbo and you can see that thing from two blocks away. Love it.

[Bob Loblaw]

I see many cyclists who seem view bicycle safety as a relationship with traffic where both parties communicate their intentions, behave safely and courteously to avoid accidents and get home safely, and for the most part that is exactly how it is.

But there are times you could have an oom-pah band playing at 110 dB right next to you, searchlights swinging beams of light across the sky, and the threat of public flaying and dismemberment as a punishment for passing within 35 feet of you on your bike, and none of it will help you. All the lights and legal protections in the world won't matter against a driver who is applying makeup while lighting a cigarette, shifting gears, voice dialing their cell and changing a radio station in mid-corner, as you unfortunately already know.

So in a nutshell, if it were me (and believe me I think about this a lot) I would be thinking about my lane position and situational awareness at the time of the accident. Where did she come from? How much time did you have between seeing her and impact? If you weren't aware of her till CRUNCH, why not? Where could you have been standing and been out of the lie of fire, or at least been able to get out of the way?

I don't know what happened, I was not there, and I am not offering this as implied criticism of any sort. Just some stuff to think about in addition to planning your lighting upgrades.

BL

[verticaldoug]

For commuting, you are probably better off with HiVis pack and clothing than a stronger rear light. A car's headlights are much larger and stronger than any rear cycling light. The reflective tape will help. Outside of that, some people just are not paying attention.

[Aaron O]

I'm not taking it as criticism, but the bottom line is that she hit me in a lane she didn't belong in, and I did have lighting. My lane position was center and right to the cross walk, she made a left, cut her turn short, came into the wrong lane and hit me head on. This is most definitely her fault...100% her fault...but as wre all know, fault doesn;t matter at all. I'm on my ass with a broken leg and she won't be affected until her insurance rates go up a little.

Being honest about it, I'd been awake for a long time that day. I was riding home after my post-work class...so it was a long day and I was tired. I didn't notice her until she was right on me...by then it was too late. I was at a full stop, I don't think there was anyway I could have moved or gotten out of the way. Yes - I was tired, but I don't think it's relevant here. I DO think the obnoxiously bright helmet that I just bought MIGHT have made a difference...MIGHT HAVE.

I'm really not asking for advice on lane positioning or saftey...I want advice on, from a driver's perspective, some lighting might be too much.

For commuting, you are probably better off with HiVis pack and clothing than a stronger rear light. A car's headlights are much larger and stronger than any rear cycling light. The reflective tape will help. Outside of that, some people just are not paying attention.

It was head on, not from behind.

What I really want to know is if some lighting is too strong for high traffic road use. Are helmet lights inherently problematic and too high?

[AngryScientist]

i dont think any amount of rear facing red or amber light is too much. if you're annoying a driver, at least they see you. forward facing lighting needs to be aimed properly and not blinding drivers. same deal, throw as many lumens as you want forward, as long as the beam pattern is good and it is aimed correctly, just like car headlights.

it sounds to me, though, like in your situation, no amount of additional lighting was going to help. she probably would have hit you if you were on fire.

[Aaron O]

i dont think any amount of rear facing red or amber light is too much. if you're annoying a driver, at least they see you. forward facing lighting needs to be aimed properly and not blinding drivers. same deal, throw as many lumens as you want forward, as long as the beam pattern is good and it is aimed correctly, just like car headlights.

it sounds to me, though, like in your situation, no amount of additional lighting was going to help. she probably would have hit you if you were on fire.

I'm worried that the top of the helmet is bad placement - and the way your head moves while riding means varying beam placement. The thing is so strong that I'm worried she's going to cause an issue. She's an experienced in town rider, but she's never used helmet lighting before.

[AngryScientist]

I'm worried that the top of the helmet is bad placement - and the way your head moves while riding means varying beam placement. The thing is so strong that I'm worried she's going to cause an issue. She's an experienced in town rider, but she's never used helmet lighting before.

i agree Aaron. Its also my opinion that a powerful helmet light is not necessary in the city where there are street lights, traffic, etc. i can see wanting them for trail riding when you want to put a beam where you want it. i'd skip the helmet mounted spotlight and get a good one for the bars...

[verticaldoug]

Sorry if my post was confusing, I was referring the the driver not paying attention. Cars drive into other cars and the drivers go " i did't see them". So their is a limit to what you can do to make yourself visible. I run at night with a Petzl headlamp. Since it is at head height and aimed just so, it will hit a driver in the face if I run against traffic.


I'm not taking it as criticism, but the bottom line is that she hit me in a lane she didn't belong in, and I did have lighting. My lane position was center and right to the cross walk, she made a left, cut her turn short, came into the wrong lane and hit me head on. This is most definitely her fault...100% her fault...but as wre all know, fault doesn;t matter at all. I'm on my ass with a broken leg and she won't be affected until her insurance rates go up a little.

Being honest about it, I'd been awake for a long time that day. I was riding home after my post-work class...so it was a long day and I was tired. I didn't notice her until she was right on me...by then it was too late. I was at a full stop, I don't think there was anyway I could have moved or gotten out of the way. Yes - I was tired, but I don't think it's relevant here. I DO think the obnoxiously bright helmet that I just bought MIGHT have made a difference...MIGHT HAVE.

I'm really not asking for advice on lane positioning or saftey...I want advice on, from a driver's perspective, some lighting might be too much.



It was head on, not from behind.

What I really want to know is if some lighting is too strong for high traffic road use. Are helmet lights inherently problematic and too high?

[Aaron O]

Sorry if my post was confusing, I was referring the the driver not paying attention. Cars drive into other cars and the drivers go " i did't see them". So their is a limit to what you can do to make yourself visible. I run at night with a Petzl headlamp. Since it is at head height and aimed just so, it will hit a driver in the face if I run against traffic.

Thanks Doug, have any drivers in the opposing lane ever said something to you about being blinded?

[Nooch]

depending on the bike, i've got two different set-ups.

On my race bike (when I use it to commute) I have the magicshine front light (sos in the daylight) and a PDW DangerZone (only a half watt, but better strobe pattern than the original radbot 1000).

My commuter/cross bike, which gets the call most of the time, has a dinotte 400R rear taillight with the batterypack stuck up in a saddle bag, and a l&m seca 700 headlight.

Another good one is the Serfas USL-TL60 (the shield). They claim it's the brightest single LED tail light on the market. A friend and I were riding home one night, he had the serfas, I had the Dinotte, and we had to ride side by side as neither of us could manage to ride behind the other. We probably looked like a cop car from behind.

[esldude]

Something I have thought about for some time. Daytime tests and crash results both show on motorcycles people see the outline of the human body better. As in motorcyclists without fairings get seen and are in fewer head on accidents than people with fairings. The fairings are typically a larger more visible surface area than people. Humans are conditioned to notice the human outline however.

So what I have wondered on night riding is if one would be noticed more from the front if they were back lit so their human shape was visible. Wouldn't even need to be all that bright I don't think. If you were wearing reflective jerseys or jackets it would work for the back too. Say a decently spread beam mounted on a slight extension either off the back of your helmet shining downward to light your back and for a silhouette to the front. Or perhaps a mount just off the rear of the seat shining mostly upward for the same effect. The upward light if rather bright might also create an upward cone of light that would be something that might get noticed more from a distance. Something of the searchlight effect from a distance and narrowing down to pin point you as you get closer.

And all this would work without blinding other drivers.

[dustyrider]

It's important to aim lights so that you don't blind the driver. Headlights should be aimed just like a car's, you want to see the road surface anyways.
The brighter they are the easier they are to see from a distance, which hopefully, at some point, gets a driver's limited attention span, before they reach you on your bike. I see all kinds of little blinkie lights on bikes that can't be seen until you're on top of the rider. In my mind you're taking a big chance with these since most drivers seem to be less and less attentive at all times.

I like my 140 lumen rear DiNotte, it lights up stop signs blocks away, even when aimed at the road 10-15 yards behind the bike. Folks in cars have told me, in a positive way, that the light is very visible. I use the alternating flash, in the medium, setting. For headlights I use an old set of Blackburns mounted to the bars, I don't know the lumens but they're bright and in low light settings I use the strobe effect on the diffused light and keep the spot on low.

I like the idea of a helmet light since you can shine it in any direction, as long as you keep in mind that you can possibly blind somebody with it. But it would help at intersections where your profile is all a driver can see.
It's apparently very hard to see profiles, I've learned this all to well with my years of commuting and Motorcycle riding. That's why I use reflective material anywhere I can. I've got reflective side walls on the tires, reflective top tube protector, shoes with reflective tape on the sides and rear, and reflective strips on my gloves. If I lived in a very busy city environment and spent a lot of time waiting in intersections I'd probably get some of those lighted wheel reflectors to further increase my visibility from the side.

In the end, all you can do is try to be visible, attentive, and aware of your road position. It sounds like your situation might have been unavoidable thanks to the distracted driver. Hope your leg gets better and that you manage to escape accidents in the future.

[cp43]

I really like having a helmet light for commuting in the dark. It allows me to see more clearly into corners before I start to turn the bars. I'm not riding in the city though, so that may not be an issue for you.

The other thing about it is that you can direct the light much more quickly than you can with bar mounted lights. So, if a car is approaching towards from the front, you can turn you head a little to the right, and direct all the light away from the driver. If someone is about to do something dumb, or you think they may not see you, you can shine the light right at their face for a second.

I haven't ridden in the city at night at all, so the above may not really apply to you.

Chris

[rpm]

I think side lighting is a neglected area. You may have a lot of watts shining front and rear, but they won't do you that much good if somebody is coming from the side. I like to add illuminated leg bands from Planet Bike to my arsenal. I feel better at intersections with those on. Plus they stand out when you pedal because they are moving up and down.

[Aaron O]

I think side lighting is a neglected area. You may have a lot of watts shining front and rear, but they won't do you that much good if somebody is coming from the side. I like to add illuminated leg bands from Planet Bike to my arsenal. I feel better at intersections with those on. Plus they stand out when you pedal because they are moving up and down.

I always use a band on my right leg, my shoes have reflective material and the helmet lighting I bought actually does have side lighting.

[mossman]

Powerful, blinding blinky lights are annoying and potentially a distraction for motorists and other cyclists.

Invest in a quality dynamo setup, for you're serious. Get a light with a cut-off and a hub with low-drag and a decent rack or fender dynamo tail light.

And invest in some reflective gear. drivers see a human, not a bunch of flashing lights. perhaps even tires with a reflective sidewall band.

If drivers cannot see you with such a setup, then well, they'd crash into you regardless.

[Ahneida Ride]

Glad you are better ...

for rear lighting ..... Dinotte !

Makes a Planet bike turbo look like a candle.

[martinrjensen]

The one thing I noticed regarding taillights was that a light that was at eye height (on or near the helmet) was more noticeable than lower down by a large margin.
What I mean is that of course a PlanetBike SuperFlash mounted on the seat post is more visible because it's brighter, but when I look down the road while, I'm driving my eyes tend to stay in a horizontal line that about equals the head of a biker, so I notice that light first. I discovered this when I rode past a rider that had a small light in his helmet and it was startling (to me) that I noticed that light first before his bigger light mounted lower down.

[Bob Ross]

I'm worried that it's height and strength might blind drivers.

You're a better man than I: My lighting objective is to ensure I blind drivers!

[verticaldoug]

Thanks Doug, have any drivers in the opposing lane ever said something to you about being blinded?

Nothing more than a flash of high beams. But I still think your best bet is higher vis clothing. In the long dark winter of London, many riders wear the reflective vest or a reflective backpack cover. I think this really improves their visibility to drivers with both the street lights and car headlights giving illumination.

http://www.evanscycles.com/products/altura/night-vision-windproof-jacket-ec019965
http://www.evanscycles.com/products/respro/high-viz-hump-rucsac-cover-waterproof-ec006936


I also have a set of Continental Gran Prix tires with the reflective strip on the sidewall.

[Liv2RideHard]

Powerful, blinding blinky lights are annoying and potentially a distraction for motorists and other cyclists.

Invest in a quality dynamo setup, for you're serious. Get a light with a cut-off and a hub with low-drag and a decent rack or fender dynamo tail light.

And invest in some reflective gear. drivers see a human, not a bunch of flashing lights. perhaps even tires with a reflective sidewall band.

If drivers cannot see you with such a setup, then well, they'd crash into you regardless.

I ride almost every morning. On the bike by 0430 and home by sunrise. I use a 1200 lumen LED headlight mounted on my bars and a red 1200 lumen led taillight in flash mode mounted to my seat post. I can see where they may be annoying, but frankly I do not care if I am annoying a motorist. My objective is to be seen not make sure I am not annoying someone. If it is distracting, then so be it. Again my objective is to be seen. I have never had a motorist honk or otherwise to tell me that my set-up is annoying or distracting. I know people see me because of my lights. I can tell because of the space I am given, mind you not always the case though. I routinely do laps around the local university right around 3rd shift change, so lots of campus police, and they have never stopped me for my lights and I see them almost every morning.

Dynamo systems can be good. Never have to charge a battery. Limited output though so better have good optics. Can be a drag. Have to rebuild a wheel if a hub dynamo. Need capacitors for a continuous burn. I just think there are more cons than pros to a dynamo system. I am no dynamo expert and not trying to call you or anyone out though. Just my observations is all.

[bluesea]

Glad you are better ...

for rear lighting ..... Dinotte !

Makes a Planet bike turbo look like a candle.


Yes, a candle. Good for back up and not much else once you've become used to the safety factor of high lumens.

I plan to eventually replace my 400R with the 300R and its integrated rechargeable battery. The 300R is not *quite* as powerful as the 400R, but pretty close, and imo worth the convenience.

[1happygirl]

Yep, placement I think is important.
Not specifically to your accident, but at night if blinded a driver is blind and you have ruined their night vision.
I have a friend who drives and won't let me turn on iPads etc while being passenger to assure they see all ppl and animals on the road. They have never in 25+ plus years of driving had an accident.
Like in an airplane, there is a reason for not shining light at the pilot or in the cockpit that is too bright.

[saab2000]

Dynamo systems can be good. Never have to charge a battery. Limited output though so better have good optics. Can be a drag. Have to rebuild a wheel if a hub dynamo. Need capacitors for a continuous burn. I just think there are more cons than pros to a dynamo system. I am no dynamo expert and not trying to call you or anyone out though. Just my observations is all.

Dynamos are so good nowadays that there is little negative. The biggest negative that I can think of is that fact that the light is not just a take-off like a battery light would be. There is an element of semi-permanance with such a setup.

They are durable and the drag is barely perceptible, if at all. The light is not quite as good as a good battery light but better than mediocre ones. Probably not quite as nice as your 1200 lumen light but the good ones are not far behind. Far, far better than most folks think. And never having to charge a light is just so cool.

[Aaron O]

I had a dynamo set up bike once and I wasn't wild about it - probably because of the aforementioned semi-permanence. It was also heavy and I like QR skewers.

I think I'll go with the helmet and try not to point it at people. We'll see how it works. I reserve the right to change my mind and add on more (or less) lighting. Where I live, the turbo superflash is quite adequate - you can see it from 3 blocks and with reduced city speeds, that's more than ample.

[saab2000]

I had a dynamo set up bike once and I wasn't wild about it - probably because of the aforementioned semi-permanence. It was also heavy and I like QR skewers.

I think I'll go with the helmet and try not to point it at people. We'll see how it works. I reserve the right to change my mind and add on more (or less) lighting. Where I live, the turbo superflash is quite adequate - you can see it from 3 blocks and with reduced city speeds, that's more than ample.

FWIW, the newer dynamos are likely better than before. I don't notice the drag on my Shimano, which does have a skewer.

That said, I use a battery light for summer rides and the generator is on my all-arounder winter bike with fenders.

As to too much light? I don't think it's possible. But I do try to be careful with how it's aimed.

[schwa86]

I use a dynamo on the front for my being able to see, but I use a cheapish cateye flasher "to be seen" and as an occasional supplement, the white one of these in flashing mode on my helmet which allows me to give the "hairy eyeball" to motorists.

http://www.rei.com/media/cc/ce3eb570-9270-47ef-bec0-4f88531a8ef8.jpg