NYT: "Withdrawal of Armstrong Lieutenants Puts Focus on What They Know"

[Tony T]

NYT: "Withdrawal of Armstrong Lieutenants Puts Focus on What They Know"

"Johnson would not comment on the timing of the decision, which has led some to believe that the four cyclists could be witnesses in the doping case against Armstrong,"

More likely, they will have to admit to doping as part of an immunity deal, which would be a real embarrassment if they were to win the Gold and have to give it back.

However, the most reasonable quote is from Horner:

“When I read about it, I said, ‘That’s interesting news.’ I wonder what’s going to follow it.”

[laupsi]

so my response to Chris Horner: I believe this is the proverbial "smoking gun"

[BillG]

That looks serious. :eek:

[christian]

I think that's the best thing that will come out of this - in the USADA hearing, the statements of George, Levi, etc will be public record. I think the cat will poke his head out of the bag.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . who are talking and these are four of them, then this could be to American cycling what the Festina Affair was to the Tour.

BBD

[Fixed]

Festina look at French cycling since
Cheers

[Viper]

This is the new Rickroll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oon45kkLzsQ

:)

[christian]

In my mind, Festina was the best thing to happen to French cycling. Allez Rolland!

[William]

The problem is that if there really is "teeth" to any of this, LA has kind of painted himself into a corner.


“Finally, the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the skeptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. But this is one hell of a race. This is a great sporting event and you should stand around and believe it. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets — this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it. So Vive le Tour forever!”

“If you consider my situation: a guy who comes back from arguably, you know, a death sentence, why would I then enter into a sport and dope myself up and risk my life again? That's crazy. I would never do that. No. No way.”

“It’s our word against his word. I like our word. We like our credibility. Floyd lost his credibility a long time ago.”
In May 2010, responding to Landis’s accusations of systematic doping at the US Postal team

“Do the American people feel like this is a good use of their tax dollars? That’s for them to decide. Like I said, as long as we have a legitimate and credible and fair investigation, we’d be happy to co-operate. But I’m not going to participate in any kind of witch hunt. I’ve done too many good things for too many people.”
Speaking to the New York Times on July 14 about the Jeff Novitzky lead investigation sparked by Landis’s accusations.

“His accusations aren’t good for cycling, for his team, for me, for anybody. If he thinks cycling works like that, he’s wrong and he would be better off going home.”
Responding to Christophe Bassons’ criticism of the doping culture in cycling during the 2000 Tour

"I have never doped ... These charges are baseless, motivated by spite and advanced through testimony bought and paid for by promises of anonymity and immunity"

“I asked myself what I believed. I had never prayed a lot. I hoped hard, wished hard, but I didn't pray. I had developed a certain distrust of organised religion growing up, but I felt I had the capacity to be a spiritual person, and to hold some fervent beliefs. Quite simply, I believed I had a responsibility to be a good person, and that meant fair, honest, hardworking and honorable. If I did that, if I was good to my family, true to my friends, if I gave back to my community or to some cause, if I wasn't a liar, a cheat, or a thief, then I believed that should be enough. At the end of the day, if there was indeed some Body or presence standing there to judge me, I hoped I would be judged on whether I had lived a true life, not on whether I believed in a certain book, or whether I'd been baptised.”

“Hard work, sacrifice and focus will never show up in tests.”



Just sayin'




William

[laupsi]

The problem is that if there really is "teeth" to any of this, LA has kind of painted himself into a corner.


[/I]



Just sayin'




William

hello???

[Fixed]

I just see it now fives years in the future national championships held at an industrial park fifty people come to watch .. :)
washed up old ex pro from Italy comes and wins by a mile
Like the old days ?:)
Cheers

[e-RICHIE]

I just see it now fives years in the future national championships held at an industrial park fifty people come to watch .. :)
washed up old ex pro from Italy comes and wins by a mile
Like the old days ?:)
Cheers

Butch - It won't come to that ^. But anything is better than the Wall Street on
wheels we have here in the States going back at least two decades atmo. These
cats are not too big to fail, and maybe they finally will.

[JohnHemlock]

I just see it now fives years in the future national championships held at an industrial park fifty people come to watch .. :)
washed up old ex pro from Italy comes and wins by a mile
Like the old days ?:)
Cheers

And lots of people would like that, since racing would go back to the fringes where it will be watched only by those who can truly appreciate it. Not sure who those people are but most of them appear to be self-appointed.

I was re-reading an article in Rouleur about how Trek has gone from a company with less than a million dollars in revenue to almost a BILLION dollars in revenue. EPO and cortisone and testosterone are good for more than just bike racers.

[Steve in SLO]

I just see it now fives years in the future national championships held at an industrial park fifty people come to watch .. :)
washed up old ex pro from Italy comes and wins by a mile
Like the old days ?:)
Cheers

Certainly, the public perception of the Armstrong machine will be forever tainted if the case goes against him/them, but these guys now represent our 'old guard' and would naturally be rollling out of competition in the next 5 years anyway. Luckily, the U.S. has a 'new guard' of great competitors who INHO have the ability to keep it exciting and propel the sport forward from here.

[the bottle ride]

In my mind, Festina was the best thing to happen to French cycling. Allez Rolland!

In my mind the Festina affair is the best thing to happen to cycling- not just French cycling.

It really started the discussion of the doping in cycling. It had an effect on sponsorship- people in the peleton lost their jobs.

Many people within the sport have said that the peleton slowed downed with doping after the Festina affair....that is until 1998 when the virus was re-injected.


(BTW: Breaking the chain is great book on the festina affair)

[Rueda Tropical]

Let's hope what happened to French cycling happens to cycling worldwide. Problem for the French was they unilaterally disarmed while the Americans and Spanish just amped up the juice.

The dopers want you to believe that without doping no one will watch. That if they go down cycling will be ruined. That's self-serving justification for the unjustifiable... We don't want to but we have to keep doping for the good of the sport. There is a new generation coming up ready to fill their shoes. Hopefully for them doping won't be the price of admission.

If you want a rigged super human cartoon show you can watch WWW wrestling.

[Fixed]

I am sorry for the gloom and doom forecast .we do have great young talent maybe this will spare them the pain the old cats are going through .
I am a fan of the racing I need to think more of the riders and less of the entertainment value .
Cheers

[JohnHemlock]

If you want a rigged super human cartoon show you can watch WWW wrestling.

Sadly, my problem is that I DO want a super-human cartoon show as do most of the casual viewing public which is who sponsors are trying to reach with their investment. I would rather go rearrange my sock drawer than watch the last couple of TdFs. When I watch heavyweight fights I want Ali-Frazier, not a light sparring session where both fighters go to the club together afterwards and get bottle service. Which is what Tour racing is turning into these days.

I don't believe you will ever get doping out of cycling, as racers will ALWAYS seek an edge. Like Anquetil said, one does not win the Tour on mineral water alone. So I will admit to being a small shabby man and if they want to turn their blood into Smuckers and keep syringes full of gasoline, I don't happen to care. I admit to being here for the entertainment and spectacle.

[Fixed]

For pointing my thinking error out in a nice way :
Cheers

[slowgoing]

I love it.

[MattTuck]

If you want a rigged super human cartoon show you can watch WWW wrestling.

Or just watch the classics?

I think the primary reason the tour has evolved to be an effort of energy savings and following the leader is because of how hard it is.

The guys at the top end of the sport are certainly top climbers, etc. But what sets them apart is their ability to do repeated daily torture to their body, recover over night and come back. I'm not sure that there would be less need to dope if the stages weren't so hellish, but it would certainly make for more fireworks if there were fewer 'epic' stages.

[Climb01742]

the truth may be ugly. it may be uncomfortable. it may cost some folks a lot of money. it may cost our sport fans, TV, sponsors and races.

but telling the truth is never wrong. and lying is always wrong. IMO.

let the chips fall.

[David Kirk]

the truth may be ugly. it may be uncomfortable. it may cost some folks a lot of money. it may cost our sport fans, TV, sponsors and races.

but telling the truth is never wrong. and lying is always wrong. IMO.

let the chips fall.

Exactly.

Thank you.


dave

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

festina look at french cycling since
cheers

+1.

[BillG]

+1.

You mean unable to compete with American, Spanish, German, and Italian dopers but honest and exciting (Chavanel, Rolland, Voekler)? I'll take it any day over the horrific PEDfest that cycling became.

[Rada]

the truth may be ugly. it may be uncomfortable. it may cost some folks a lot of money. it may cost our sport fans, TV, sponsors and races.

but telling the truth is never wrong. and lying is always wrong. IMO.

let the chips fall.

Nice to see that there are still those around who can throw stones at glass houses.

[slowgoing]

and lying is always wrong. IMO.

lying and cheating.

[slowgoing]

Nice to see that there are still those around who can throw stones at glass houses.

Build a glass house, or a career based on a house of cards, expect stones to be thrown.

[Earl Gray]

.... So I will admit to being a small shabby man and if they want to turn their blood into Smuckers and keep syringes full of gasoline, I don't happen to care. I admit to being here for the entertainment and spectacle.

+1

And I would do the same for a chance to compete at that level.

[Rada]

Build a glass house, or a career based on a house of cards, expect stones to be thrown.

Whatever you say St slow.

[bozman]

Is it possible that these four wanted a break between the Tour and the USA Pro Cycling Challenge? Too simplistic? Hincapie and Leipheimer are not exactly spring chickens.

Are these decisions always about Lance?

[e-RICHIE]

It's interesting how the ratio of believers to non-believers has changed over the years atmo. I recall during the early part of the consecutive TDF victories how so many were in the camp in which there was no possibility that doping (and all the news surrounding the central players) could exist. It was, "I mean, how could this be? He's a survivor and all that..." Well now that the pendulum has tipped and clearly there was a doping system in place, where does that leave all the hope and inspiration that once was inseparable from the story that no one could have ever scripted - the one in which a cat who couldn't even finish the event morphs into one who controls it for nearly a decade. Do the accomplishments, now so tethered to PEDs, have a lesser value, or none at all? Do all those who clung to what they assumed were superhuman feats feel cheated? Duped?!?

It's not a question of "they all do it, so what's the big deal." More so, the story is that the one person who denied it all along might finally be running out of corners to hide in. Yes, I know the plot includes that there were no positive tests. That's irrelevant at this point.

[laupsi]

Is it possible that these four wanted a break between the Tour and the USA Pro Cycling Challenge? Too simplistic? Hincapie and Leipheimer are not exactly spring chickens.

Are these decisions always about Lance?

yes, and oh let me get my list together now for good old st nick in december!

[slowgoing]

Whatever you say St slow.

Hey, if LA is out there saying he would never dope because he has too much respect for his body after surviving cancer and its treatment, and it turns out he has been doping all along, it doesn't take a saint to conclude he's the worst kind of liar and cheat.

[Rueda Tropical]

It's not a question of "they all do it, so what's the big deal."

Funny thing is a lot of the people saying this were especially vitriolic about how crooked, vile and corrupt Spain was in it's attitude towards doping of Spanish athletes. Now they are calling for Tygart's head not taking the path of the Spanish authorities.

[PQJ]

Nice to see that there are still those around who can throw stones at glass houses.

On the flip side, it's nice to see that there are still those around for whom the words "honor" and "integrity" actually mean something.

[572cv]

I like it that this thread is speculation about an article that speculates about stuff :rolleyes: I'm interested in the denouement, but there is a long way to go in this Homeric saga, for better or worse.

[Climb01742]

Nice to see that there are still those around who can throw stones at glass houses.

how is advocating for the truth to be told 'throwing stones'?

[bozman]

I like it that this thread is speculation about an article that speculates about stuff :rolleyes: I'm interested in the denouement, but there is a long way to go in this Homeric saga, for better or worse.

That was my point, too.

Just because the decisions were "unusual," and "had never happened" certainly does not mean that they were not going to ever happen. Strange ***** happens all the time.

[laupsi]

That was my point, too.

Just because the decisions were "unusual," and "had never happened" certainly does not mean that they were not going to ever happen. Strange ***** happens all the time.

call me a cynic but I believe it may also be that GH made a deal a while ago agreeing to give testimony if things could remain "hush, hush" until after his retirement. also, I bet we don't hear anything else from Mr. Horner. I believe he is currently of the opinion he spoke "out of line".

[Rada]

On the flip side, it's nice to see that there are still those around for whom the words "honor" and "integrity" actually mean something.

And what about giving a guy his day in court? Being preached at by a bunch of guys on the internet about truth, honor, and integrity is a joke. You guys need to all step off your rock!

[PQJ]

And what about giving a guy his day in court? Being preached at by a bunch of guys on the internet about truth, honor, and integrity is a joke. You guys need to all step off your rock!

That ship sailed a long time ago. Now it's just a function of him saying "I'm guilty" or USADA declaring "you're guilty." There is no question that he is. None.

[slowgoing]

And what about giving a guy his day in court? Being preached at by a bunch of guys on the internet about truth, honor, and integrity is a joke. You guys need to all step off your rock!

That's the beauty of the internet. We are speculating about what these other riders will say. That's why we say "if" x guy says this and "ïf" y guy says this. Nothing wrong with that.

IF he doped, and especially lied about it, he gets what he deserves.

[JohnHemlock]

Eddy Merckx doped and lied and he gets a Happy Birthday thread. Lance doped and lied and gets an internet kangaroo court.

:banana:

[Earl Gray]

And what about giving a guy his day in court? Being preached at by a bunch of guys on the internet about truth, honor, and integrity is a joke. You guys need to all step off your high horse!

Fixed it for you

[laupsi]

And what about giving a guy his day in court? Being preached at by a bunch of guys on the internet about truth, honor, and integrity is a joke. You guys need to all step off your rock!

I don't believe anyone's intention was to be "on the high horse". at this juncture it has become pretty apparent what went on. I'll repeat another post, "there ain't gonna be any court hearing", only a conviction based on an overwhelming degree of cooperation. seems like some of those involved do have a conscience and/or other things mean more to them than their mortal victories.

[Rada]

That's the beauty of the internet. We are speculating about what these other riders will say. That's why we say "if" x guy says this and "ïf" y guy says this. Nothing wrong with that.

IF he doped, and especially lied about it, he gets what he deserves.


Well for the record you did not say "if". Plus I would add that for someone with such a high standard you come off somewhat of a hypocrite.

[Earl Gray]

I don't believe anyone's intention was to be "on the high horse". at this juncture it has become pretty apparent what went on. I'll repeat another post, "there ain't gonna be any court hearing", only a conviction based on an overwhelming degree of cooperation. seems like some of those involved do have a conscience and/or other things mean more to them than their mortal victories.

If you would like to assign a time frame and maybe better define "conviction" (maybe include consequence) I'd be more than happy to make a very minor and friendly wager that he walks.

Maybe just a water bottle from you builder of choice or something to that effect.


I would like to note that last time I did this the loser welched so my expectations are already set pretty low.

[Rada]

I don't believe anyone's intention was to be "on the high horse". at this juncture it has become pretty apparent what went on. I'll repeat another post, "there ain't gonna be any court hearing", only a conviction based on an overwhelming degree of cooperation. seems like some of those involved do have a conscience and/or other things mean more to them than their mortal victories.

Or they have an axe to grind, or trying to save their own ass, or....

[witcombusa]

Well for the record you did not say "if". Plus I would add that for someone with such a high standard you come off somewhat of a hypocrite.

High standards? What kind of life would one have to lead to NOT be as pathetic a cheat as LA?

[PQJ]

If you would like to assign a time frame and maybe better define "conviction" (maybe include consequence) I'd be more than happy to make a very minor and friendly wager that he walks.

Maybe just a water bottle from you builder of choice or something to that effect.


I would like to note that last time I did this the loser welched so my expectations are already set pretty low.

I'll play. Not sure how relevant a time frame is, given how long these things have historically taken. I'll say 3 years, however, considering the likely CAS appeal. As for "conviction," how about unappealable declaration that he doped (ie, USADA presents their evidence and sanctions him on that basis; he appeals to CAS and loses)?

If you win, you get the water bottle. If I win, no more e-R axe-grinding by you. I will NOT renege (would even put water bottle in escrow, if it'll assuage your concerns).

[laupsi]

I'll play. Not sure how relevant a time frame is, given how long these things have historically taken. I'll say 3 years, however, considering the likely CAS appeal. As for "conviction," how about unappealable declaration that he doped (ie, USADA presents their evidence and sanctions him on that basis; he appeals to CAS and loses)?

If you win, you get the water bottle. If I win, no more e-R axe-grinding by you. I will NOT renege (would even put water bottle in escrow, if it'll assuage your concerns).

have at it guys, I make it a rule not to place wagers.

[Rada]

High standards? What kind of life would one have to lead to NOT be as pathetic a cheat as LA?

You must either really hate the guy or think way to highly about racing a bike.

[RonW87]

lying and cheating.


If that's right, then why don't we vilify e.g. Hincapie, Cippolini, Musseuw, Zabel, Ullrich, and yes, even, Jens, the way we do Armstrong?

To me, it's not about the lying and the cheating, per se. That applied to everyone except Bassons. It's about the hypocrisy and the character assassination. Lance took that to another level.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

"You mean unable to compete with American, Spanish, German, and Italian dopers but honest and exciting (Chavanel, Rolland, Voekler)? I'll take it any day over the horrific PEDfest that cycling became."


Same here.

[slowgoing]

I can't believe anyone is upset that we are speculating about what the other riders will say and what the impact will be on LA and what it really may mean about the character of LA. Sheez. Of course this has to play itself out, but we don't have to wait for that to happen before we can voice our opinions.

[BumbleBeeDave]

It's about the hypocrisy and the character assassination. Lance took that to another level.

. . . for the doping if he would simply stand up and admit it. I think those people who contend that it was necessary to compete successfully at the time are correct, and there are others who would similarly forgive for that reason.

But his personal behavior is, to me, an entirely different matter. He's made it clear many times through his public behavior that he's a bully and an arrogant, major tool. I think a lot of this "vendetta" against him that defenders speak of is just as much about payback for the way he's treated people over the years as it is about doping. He's operated for a long time as if he doesn't really care if people like him or not--and now it's catching up to him.

BBD

[slowgoing]

If that's right, then why don't we vilify e.g. Hincapie, Cippolini, Musseuw, Zabel, Ullrich, and yes, even, Jens, the way we do Armstrong?

To me, it's not about the lying and the cheating, per se. That applied to everyone except Bassons. It's about the hypocrisy and the character assassination. Lance took that to another level.

The rest didn't win 7 tours and continue claiming to this day that they didn't dope. It's the extent and magnitude of his lies in view of his accomplishments (IF they end up being lies - there, Rada, happy now?) that bothers me the most. Plus some of the rest of the winning riders came clean(even if after being caught). That doesn't seem likely here, and if it does happen, will be much too late.

[joep2517]

This maybe a stupid question and it is OT - but how does this affect LiveStrong and its purpose? Are the two, LA and LiveStrong, separated enough that LiveStrong can survive?

[e-RICHIE]

How many/what percentage of those whose faith in his comeback and victories being a message of hope will now feel cheated? So many sports fans feel duped and have reconciled that the game is flawed (and always has been); I can't imagine the innermost feelings of a community comprised of cats and kittens who never heard of Mount Ventoux, the Pyrenees, or knew what a Team Time Trial was until 1999 that now must decide where its inspiration will come from. These are the most affected victims of this charade atmo.

[Germany_chris]

the truth may be ugly. it may be uncomfortable. it may cost some folks a lot of money. it may cost our sport fans, TV, sponsors and races.

but telling the truth is never wrong. and lying is always wrong. IMO.

let the chips fall.

I disagree.

Truth in the sense that we are talking about here is just not the best course period.

If the truth is told we will wreck USA cycling for a generation, and wreck a national hero. What is the benefit "I told you so."

My guess is these riders are dropping out of the Olympics not because they'll need to testify but because of tests, yes even big George.

Cycling like any sport or profession that relies on physicality is going to have dopers, I just can't condemn them, the purity of the sport was tainted long ago and I care very little about purity anyway.

The benefits of this investigation if it goes forward are 1: We tear down a national hero 2: we remove any legitimacy the LA foundation might have had along with making all that believed in it feel just a touch stupid along with guilty/sad/naive for their illness/hopes. We'd do this because it's the truth or at least the truth according to the USADA.

This makes me sad to be an American

[JohnHemlock]

e-Richie - that camp seems to be saying (similar to what Fat Cyclist posted the other day on his site) that the doping and lying is a footnote when placed next to the tremendous good done by Livestrong and by Lance the professional survivor. So it seems the coping mechanism is already soundly in place.

I know a woman who survived cancer and wears a Livestrong bracelet and could be shown video of Lance eating baby hearts from his musette and it wouldn't change her opinion of him.

[Tony T]

How many/what percentage of those whose faith in his comeback and victories being a message of hope will now feel cheated

And what about his message of hope apart from his race victories?
The man has given back a lot through his foundation (There are many athletes that also give a lot back, but many, many more that do not).

(FWIW, I contribute to his Foundation, and will continue to do so)

[Rada]

The rest didn't win 7 tours and continue claiming to this day that they didn't dope. It's the extent and magnitude of his lies in view of his accomplishments (IF they end up being lies - there, Rada, happy now?) that bothers me the most. Plus some of the rest of the winning riders came clean(even if after being caught). That doesn't seem likely here, and if it does happen, will be much too late.

So it's not really about truth, honor, integrity, or cheating. What it really is about is schematics as defined by you.

[e-RICHIE]

e-Richie - that camp seems to be saying (similar to what Fat Cyclist posted the other day on his site) that the doping and lying is a footnote when placed next to the tremendous good done by Livestrong and by Lance the professional survivor. So it seems the coping mechanism is already soundly in place.


Yikes - you do know that some people, in fact, made money by investing in Bernie Madoff, don't you? I am not trying to derail this thread
or equate the two protagonists. But it is hard for me to comprehend how tremendous the good is when you examine the hash marks on the
field his game was played on. He basically redrew them to suit his whims, yet for all intents and purposes, pleads innocent of all charges.

[Earl Gray]

I'll play. Not sure how relevant a time frame is, given how long these things have historically taken. I'll say 3 years, however, considering the likely CAS appeal. As for "conviction," how about unappealable declaration that he doped (ie, USADA presents their evidence and sanctions him on that basis; he appeals to CAS and loses)?

If you win, you get the water bottle. If I win, no more e-R axe-grinding by you. I will NOT renege (would even put water bottle in escrow, if it'll assuage your concerns).

Those stakes are way to high for my taste.

Not to mention the 3 year time frame.

I'll go by the end of the 2013 TDF and the conviction has to have enough meat that he loses at least one TDF win.

[Rueda Tropical]

I disagree.


The benefits of this investigation if it goes forward are 1: We tear down a national hero 2: we remove any legitimacy the LA foundation might have had along with making all that believed in it feel just a touch stupid along with guilty/sad/naive for their illness/hopes. We'd do this because it's the truth or at least the truth according to the USADA.

This makes me sad to be an American

Actually the benefits are: we take down the actors who are most responsible for enabling doping TODAY. Armstrong is just one name of many in that letter.

Cover ups are always a bad idea. Should Nixon have been protected to protect the image of the presidency? Should pedophile priests be protected so the faithful don't loose faith? We need to perpetuate a fraud because a lot of people were duped and we don't want to burst their bubble?

If that means keeping the doping infrastructure of present day cycling intact thats a small price to pay to protect Armstrong's scam. Because people are such sheep they just can't handle the truth and need to have what information they receive decided for them. It's for their own good. It also just coincidently protects the illicit millions of a few very corrupt people. But that's unavoidable and for the greater good;)

[Germany_chris]

Yikes - you do know that some people, in fact, made money by investing in Bernie Madoff, don't you? I am not trying to derail this thread
or equate the two protagonists. But it is hard for me to comprehend how tremendous the good is when you examine the hash marks on the
field his game was played on. He basically redrew them to suit his whims, yet for all intents and purposes, pleads innocent of all charges.

But no one lost the "invested in LA" that includes USPS.

[Tony T]

Ask someone a question and you think he lies, and you think he's a liar.
Ask him the same question a thousand times and this somehow adds a magnitude?

What bothers me is that no-one has any hard evidence (that I'm aware of).
How could all of those syringes and empty bottles have made it to the landfill?

[Tom]

I think the foundation thing only makes him a more complex character, if his motivation there was for real and I don't see any reason why it didn't have to be... until you start looking at the whole livestrong.org vs livestrong.com question but let's ignore that for purposes of argument.

I think it would be good to unearth the truth, at least the version of it other than what Armstrong is presenting. Truth is, after all, a fungible thing. Perhaps it would be good for Americans to have to ponder the idea of a character that on the one hand did a lot of good for a lot of people and on the other hand concealed the truth by any means possible. Perhaps Americans need to think about the idea that things are not just binary, 1 = good, 0 = bad and no possible intersections. Perhaps we need to ponder the thought that the shining hero of today may turn out tomorrow to be nothing like we convinced ourselves. Complexities exercise the collective cerebrum, how bad could that be?

[Tony T]

...But it is hard for me to comprehend how tremendous the good is when you examine the hash marks on the field his game was played on. He basically redrew them to suit his whims, yet for all intents and purposes, pleads innocent of all charges.

Yeah, a "Lone Wolf" in a flock of innocent sheep :)

And please, why is there a need to connect the LAF to this? Is there anyone who feels "duped" into contributing to helping people cope with cancer?

(This isn't like Landis who solicited funds from fans to help in his defense when he swore (under oath) that he didn't dope. And how the hell did Landis avoid going to jail for this fraud? -- Oh yeah, his testimony that LA cheated.)

.

[e-RICHIE]

And please, why is there a need to connect the LAF to this? Is there anyone who feels "duped" into contributing to helping people cope with cancer?


There isn't a need. But as an observer to this drama, I wonder how the man, the story, and the org can be anything but inseparable.

[BumbleBeeDave]

This maybe a stupid question and it is OT - but how does this affect LiveStrong and its purpose? Are the two, LA and LiveStrong, separated enough that LiveStrong can survive?

. . . No.

There are too many other places for people to give their money where they can be far more sure the inspiration behind it is genuine. Livestrong's fundraising castle roof is held up by one pillar--Lance's reputation.

And Richie is absolutely right. Inspriation and hope can be powerful motivators for real physical healing, or to keep those afflicted energized to keep up their very personal fight. If someone with serious cancer has made Lance their inspiration to keep fighting and that inspiration is suddenly gone, then they are liable to give up and, well, I think you can see where this is going . . .

BBD

[witcombusa]

i think the foundation thing only makes him a more complex character, if his motivation there was for real and i don't see any reason why it didn't have to be... Until you start looking at the whole livestrong.org vs livestrong.com question but let's ignore that for purposes of argument.

I think it would be good to unearth the truth, at least the version of it other than what armstrong is presenting. Truth is, after all, a fungible thing. Perhaps it would be good for americans to have to ponder the idea of a character that on the one hand did a lot of good for a lot of people and on the other hand concealed the truth by any means possible. Perhaps americans need to think about the idea that things are not just binary, 1 = good, 0 = bad and no possible intersections. Perhaps we need to ponder the thought that the shining hero of today may turn out tomorrow to be nothing like we convinced ourselves. Complexities exercise the collective cerebrum, how bad could that be?


la = 0

[JohnHemlock]

Roger Clemens just found NOT guilty on all 6 counts.

Nobody really gives a **** about this stuff.

[Germany_chris]

Actually the benefits are: we take down the actors who are most responsible for enabling doping TODAY. Armstrong is just one name of many in that letter.

Cover ups are always a bad idea. Should Nixon have been protected to protect the image of the presidency? Should pedophile priests be protected so the faithful don't loose faith? We need to perpetuate a fraud because a lot of people were duped and we don't want to burst their bubble?

If that means keeping the doping infrastructure of present day cycling intact thats a small price to pay to protect Armstrong's scam. Because people are such sheep they just can't handle the truth and need to have what information they receive decided for them. It's for their own good. It also just coincidently protects the illicit millions of a few very corrupt people. But that's unavoidable and for the greater good;)

Pedophile priests hurt the innocent, and no I don't believe Nixon should have benn taken down..

I believe that it is too great to be taken down, these people are not sheep they are the weakest among us thefeore exempt from the sheep label..

the drawbacks are far greater than the rewards, had cycling or any pro sport been "innocent"then I'd agree but since pro sports have never been innocent and pure I just don't much care.

[Rada]

Actually the benefits are: we take down the actors who are most responsible for enabling doping TODAY. Armstrong is just one name of many in that letter.

Cover ups are always a bad idea. Should Nixon have been protected to protect the image of the presidency? Should pedophile priests be protected so the faithful don't loose faith? We need to perpetuate a fraud because a lot of people were duped and we don't want to burst their bubble?

If that means keeping the doping infrastructure of present day cycling intact thats a small price to pay to protect Armstrong's scam. Because people are such sheep they just can't handle the truth and need to have what information they receive decided for them. It's for their own good. It also just coincidently protects the illicit millions of a few very corrupt people. But that's unavoidable and for the greater good;)

Greater good, what a load of crap. We've spent more time and money investigating LA than we did the recent economic collapse and the possibility we were lied to about the invasion of Iraq combined. Guilty or not, I'd would think few of us would come out smelling like a rose after the better part of a decade with Federal and International agencies crawling up ones arse.

[gdw]

Interesting news sports fans... Roger Clemons just shutout the Justice Department. Not guilty on all counts. Fortunately they're not wasting any more of our money attempting to try Armstrong.

[witcombusa]

I disagree.

Truth in the sense that we are talking about here is just not the best course period.

If the truth is told we will wreck USA cycling for a generation, and wreck a national hero. What is the benefit "I told you so."

My guess is these riders are dropping out of the Olympics not because they'll need to testify but because of tests, yes even big George.

Cycling like any sport or profession that relies on physicality is going to have dopers, I just can't condemn them, the purity of the sport was tainted long ago and I care very little about purity anyway.

The benefits of this investigation if it goes forward are 1: We tear down a national hero 2: we remove any legitimacy the LA foundation might have had along with making all that believed in it feel just a touch stupid along with guilty/sad/naive for their illness/hopes. We'd do this because it's the truth or at least the truth according to the USADA.

This makes me sad to be an American


I'm sorry...who is the national hero you speak of?

[Tony T]

It's sad that George H. will have to admit to doping the same year that he retires.

I wonder when he stopped? Since he was only questioned about doping when he was with Armstrong, we'll never know.

All the young riders he helped on BMC must now feel "duped" ;)

[witcombusa]

It's sad that George H. will have to admit to doping the same year that he retires.

I wonder when he stopped? Since he was only questioned about doping when he was with Armstrong, we'll never know.

All the young riders he helped on BMC must now feel "duped" ;)


Why would you think he has stopped?

[slowgoing]

So it's not really about truth, honor, integrity, or cheating. What it really is about is schematics as defined by you.

Dude, just sayin what bothers me the most. Read my post.

People are doing to disagree with you from time to time. Get used to it.

[MarleyMon]

How many/what percentage of those whose faith in his comeback and victories being a message of hope will now feel cheated? So many sports fans feel duped and have reconciled that the game is flawed (and always has been); I can't imagine the innermost feelings of a community comprised of cats and kittens who never heard of Mount Ventoux, the Pyrenees, or knew what a Team Time Trial was until 1999 that now must decide where its inspiration will come from. These are the most affected victims of this charade atmo.
I quit smoking cigarettes with a bit of inspiration from a poster of the then 5 time TdF winner. Every flippin' morning I said to myself "if he can do what he did, I can go today without tobacco." I took the first thousand bucks I saved on smokes and bought a Cannondale from a shop that also carried Serotta, and found this forum. If you really want to know, Richard, I'll tell you - it did hurt like hell to get to the point several years ago when I realized he didn't win on will-power and superior training alone. But don't worry, I won't be putting down the bike or picking up the butts in despair anytime soon. LA helped me find the hero within, whether he was one himself or not.

[harryblack]

Ding ding ding!!

I like George but please... When did he start? When did he stop? Win another mountain stage Georgie!! It's those Greg Lemond iron injections right?

Ridiculous the usual army of Lance haters want to pretend like he personally strapped George, Levi etc down to a table and gave them Dr. Feelgood shots +++.

I don't mind if Lance gets popped legitimately (tho' I'd rathe see him race Kona) but eff the kangaroo and eff these rats-- George, Levi, CVV, Zabriskie-- who enriched themselves in all ways possible and now want to be considered 'martyrs' or some hokum.



Why would you think he has stopped?

[Fixed]

Maybe in a society where there is a pill for every ill
Taking a pill to ride your bike fast is no big deal to the average joe
Cheers

[Rueda Tropical]

We've spent more time and money investigating LA than we did the recent economic collapse and the possibility we were lied to about the invasion of Iraq combined.

Now that's nonsense. Just the budget of the SEC alone is over a $billion. add in congressional commissions and state attorneys generals prosecution and investigations of Wall Street and the number runs to the Billions. That's just finance, double it if you want to include oversight and investigations on the various wars, defense and terror.

The USADA budget is something like 10 million. Not even a micro drop in the bucket.


I believe that it is too great to be taken down, these people are not sheep they are the weakest among us thefeore exempt from the sheep label..

The most offensive bit of Lances defense is using Cancer victims as human shields. Take me down and they go down with me. If he gave a crap about them he would be doing everything he could to prepare them for the inevitable and make sure the work of his foundation was not totally dependent on a personality cult. But then it would not be very useful for the purposes of shielding him from the consequences of his actions.

Leaders work hard to make themselves expendable to their cause. Demagogues seek to make the cause all about them -they always are indispensable. The cause could never live on without them to lead it.

This is a pretty simple process. A group of powerful and influential managers, officials, doctors and coaches has been caught cheating. Lance is caught in the middle of the whole corrupt mess. Now they have the evidence they are obligated to act on it.


It's taken decades to uncover the rotten core of international cycling but it's about to all spill out. It was inevitable that something so wide spread and pervasive going on for so long would eventually come out.

[Rueda Tropical]

I don't mind if Lance gets popped legitimately (tho' I'd rathe see him race Kona) but eff the kangaroo and eff these rats-- George, Levi, CVV, Zabriskie-- who enriched themselves in all ways possible and now want to be considered 'martyrs' or some hokum.

You think Lance would fall on his sword for any of them? It's every man for him self. If you will cheat to get an advantage over someone. Why think twice about throwing someone over the side for your advantage? They didn't volunteer to give up Lance. They were put in the position of it's you or him. It ain't personal padrino it's just business.

[Rada]

Dude, just sayin what bothers me the most. Read my post.

People are doing to disagree with you from time to time. Get used to it.

I read your post and did not agree, so get over it.

[Rada]

The most offensive bit of Lances defense is using Cancer victims as human shields. Take me down and they go down with me. If he gave a crap about them he would be doing everything he could to prepare them for the inevitable and make sure the work of his foundation was not totally dependent on a personality cult. But then it would not be very useful for the purposes of shielding him from the consequences of his actions.



Seriously curious if you have proof that he has done so as I have never seen him accused of this before.

[Earl Gray]

You think Lance would fall on his sword for any of them? ....

Assuming he doped, he has fallen on the sword to this point. I'm sure you haters will say it was 100% self preservation but I suspect there is more to it than that.

If all you say is true, Lance could have been the end of the racing career anyone that ever raced with him. With the Zero tolerance policy within cycling, that would have been the outcome of him coming clean.

[Rueda Tropical]

Seriously curious if you have proof that he has done so as I have never seen him accused of this before.

Himself, his PR machine and his defenders all point to the effect that any action against Lance will have on cancer victims as a reason not to go after him.

Lance is doing a FLoyd Landis.

Preying on the good will of those he has inspired to use them to defend himself. Not concerned about what happens to them when he is proven to be a liar. Now is the time when we find out if LiveStrong was altruism or just brand building and a self-serving defense just in case the crap hit the fan. Will he do what's in the best interests of the foundation and the people he inspired or will he cynically use them in a desperate effort to save himself.

[christian]

eff these rats-- George, Levi, CVV, Zabriskie-- who enriched themselves in all ways possible and now want to be considered 'martyrs' or some hokum.Seriously? Federal grand juries with subpoena powers and potential substantial penalties for lying are a bit different than going on 60 Minutes, yo.

[Rueda Tropical]

There is a group Lance owes an explanation to.

Screw the Lance haters, cycling fans, team-mates, business partners and prosecutors. It's the people who where inspired by his story and who his foundation touched. He owes it to them not to lead them on. To find a way to make sure they survive the fall out from his professional actions.

[Rada]

Himself, his PR machine and his defenders all point to the effect that any action against Lance will have on cancer victims as a reason not to go after him.

Lance is doing a FLoyd Landis.

Preying on the good will of those he has inspired to use them to defend himself. Not concerned about what happens to them when he is proven to be a liar. Now is the time when we find out if LiveStrong was altruism or just brand building and a self-serving defense just in case the crap hit the fan. Will he do what's in the best interests of the foundation and the people he inspired or will he cynically use them in a desperate effort to save himself.

Not disagreeing that it is a dick move or that it's not been done, just have never seen or heard of it myself. That's why I was asking.

[Rada]

Seriously? Federal grand juries with subpoena powers and potential substantial penalties for lying are a bit different than going on 60 Minutes, yo.

They did not have to go on 60 Minutes. Right?

[christian]

None of the four aforementioned cyclists did go on 60 Minutes.

[Ahneida Ride]

Butch - It won't come to that ^. But anything is better than the Wall Street on
wheels we have here in the States going back at least two decades atmo. These
cats are not too big to fail, and maybe they finally will.

the Pedal Preserve won't bail them out?

[harryblack]

I don't recall this.

Seriously? Federal grand juries with subpoena powers and potential substantial penalties for lying are a bit different than going on 60 Minutes, yo.

[christian]

I'm not sure what you don't recall, but the cyclists in question were very likely questioned at the grand jury hearing regarding the fraud case against Armstrong. The information from the grand jury hearing was shared with the USADA, and is likely the source of the current investigation.

[Viper]

Maybe in a society where there is a pill for every ill
Taking a pill to ride your bike fast is no big deal to the average joe
Cheers

First the peleton. Society is next. Heard of I-STOP? Brand new legislation will allow pharmacies/doctors to electronically track and trace your drug consumption...it passed NY State Senate 58-0 and 116-0 in the Assembly.

Sorry to the chicks and dudes who bounce around from Dr. to Dr. getting scripts for speed, amphetamines, muscle relaxers and so-called "chill-pills". Latest trend? Prescriptive drug-addicted infants:

http://www.cbs6albany.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_1424.shtml

http://www.wkbw.com/news/video/Huge-Increase-in-Infants-Addicted-to-Prescription-Drugs-158497275.html

If someone wants to lynch Lance, I'd remind them we are a society of laws. If proven beyond doubt the man cheated, it'll be on display and he will pay. It's easy to make it personal, it's personnel; pro cyclists are hired and paid to play a game and win. If Jeannie Longo has special, miracle genetics, maybe Lance does, too. Go Jeannie, go:

http://bicycling.com/blogs/thisjustin/2012/02/08/husband-of-champion-french-cyclist-jeannie-longo-arrested-in-police-drug-probe/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/8594008/Jeannie-Longo-wins-58th-title-at-French-nationals.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/09/olympics2008.olympicscycling

[54ny77]

Do "they" know what the best chain lube is?

[Viper]

Do "they" know what the best chain lube is?

When Armstrong made the leap, the chain lubes changed and his former domestiques were lost and confused.

1999 = No chain
2009 = peleton was loaded with special lube and the old man placed.

[Rada]

I'm not sure what you don't recall, but the cyclists in question were very likely questioned at the grand jury hearing regarding the fraud case against Armstrong. The information from the grand jury hearing was shared with the USADA, and is likely the source of the current investigation.

There must be some question to how strong the evidence is/was since no indictment was brought and the Feds dropped the case.

[Viper]

There must be some question to how strong the evidence is/was since no indictment was brought and the Feds dropped the case.

It was Livestrong.

/rimshot

:banana:

[rounder]

Atmo,

I know you have held your position for years. I originally disagreed with what you said before because my father died from cancer and i wanted to believe in Lance and what he had done...still believe that his accomplishments were awesome regardless of how they were obtained.

I read the news daily and still like sports. Lost faith in much of baseball when news about Mark Mc Guire came to light. Lost faith in basketball and football a long time ago. Used to respect Tiger for his game, but it all fell apart when his sleazy lifestyle came to light.

There are still a few sports folks that i still respect, but not many.

Anyway, I believe that Lance doped and lied, as did others. I hope he gets off, and others clean up their act. Then maybe bike racing can get off to honest efforts. I would watch the races. Would not care if i was the only one there.

[Rueda Tropical]

There must be some question to how strong the evidence is/was since no indictment was brought and the Feds dropped the case.

Feds were never prosecuting for sports doping. That's not a federal crime.

They were looking at fraud, money laundering and some other charges that are criminal. The investigators thought they had a case and were ready to proceed but were overruled. It would have been a long and very expensive trial and after 2 less then satisfactory sports figure prosecutions they may have decided it just was not worth the cost. No one knows the actual reason. They knew then that the USADA was intending to proceed with doping violations which are an entirely separate matter.

[e-RICHIE]

Atmo,

I know you have held your position for years. I originally disagreed with what you said before because my father died from cancer and i wanted to believe in Lance and what he had done...still believe that his accomplishments were awesome regardless of how they were obtained.

I read the news daily and still like sports. Lost faith in much of baseball when news about Mark Mc Guire came to light. Lost faith in basketball and football a long time ago. Used to respect Tiger for his game, but it all fell apart when his sleazy lifestyle came to light.

There are still a few sports folks that i still respect, but not many.

Anyway, I believe that Lance doped and lied, as did others. I hope he gets off, and others clean up their act. Then maybe bike racing can get off to honest efforts. I would watch the races. Would not care if i was the only one there.
I am sorry about your loss and have no recollection of our posting to each other.

As far as the sport goes, I am a fan. Whatever is on, I will watch. Whenever the season starts ('cross, that is...) I will pin a number on both days, every weekend, until the day after Natz. But I never - as in NEVER - assumed it was a clean sport at the pro level. The season is too long. The courses too arduous. The demands too great. Plus, this sport was dirty going back to year one. I am not suggesting the mob is involved or that Belgium Juniors are forced into a life of crime to support some habit. I am just saying that I never believed the sport at that level could be done on the food we eat off the dinner table coupled with a Gatorade and a Power Bar chaser. The PEDs side of it has always been there. The banned list has always been there. And the game of pushing limits and beating the testers has always been there atmo. And you know what - I don't really care what they do, or take. Maybe the only thing that really bothers me is when a cat comes along and plays pretend, and wants us to believe that, despite what everyone around him is doing, his routine and consumption is beyond scrutiny. And to have that attitude when all around him for so many years (his ex team mates, in particular) get caught out, it just upsets me so that he would seemingly divorce himself from those who once dragged him along to the base of so many climbs and now pretend not to know (or care) where their respective paths veered off course. Certainly, when all of them rode alongside him, they were above scrutiny.

There is way too much smugness and double-speak emanating from Texas. There has been way too much control by one person, or one person's inner circle, for way too long. Maybe this cat walks on water. Or maybe he just knows where the rocks are so he can hop across. As far as I am concerned, he's just another paid cyclist who entertained us for an era or so. I was entertained; I just didn't believe.

This issue will forever be tethered to the cancer thing. I feel bad for all touched by the condition. I would never want my remarks or points of view mistaken as being at any of these folks. If they were/are able to be inspired by a cyclist, well fine. I will never understand that part of the equation because my adult life has been spent following the sport. If any of us availed ourselves of what these players have at their disposal, we would likely rise to a higher physical plane too.

[Viper]

Lance defended Floyd and Tyler. As well as Tyler's Wonder Twin, power activate! A lot of cats resent or seethe towards Lance in the daydream they too, coulda been a contendah', had they injected some sauce. Genetics. Athletics. Dianetics; John Travolta could have awesome hair, but genes said no and as he places artificial pomade onto his woven mat, Muhammad Ali snickers at Cosell, "Howard, you are a phony. I'm gonna tell the world your hair is made by the tail of a pony."

The tip of the spear atop the climbs of Italy, France are the same as corner number four at Belmont and Kentucky; the four-legged animals are on steroids and diuretics, muscle, bones and a saddle. Juice gives them an extra ten percent. Too many riders or race entrants, signees upon BikeReg.com that place mid-pack, year in, year out, tease their ego with a whisper from their ID, "If you had a few extra red blood cells, you too could've shown that twirp from down south." A Camry LUX at a red light power-braking against a 2013 Camaro ZL1. In the morning shower, everyone's a rock star or folk hero and it's a one-man band.

Association. Wearing spandex, lycra, wool and skinsuits. Wearing Joe Montana's #16 jersey can't make the high school spazz into Joe Jock. Some riders who click on a website and click to enter a race and click PayPal entrance fees and get into the circle of a local race that only the local-locals know of, think they could be Lancelot as they don the shiny armor of lycra. We could all swim like Mark Spitz, sure. We could all halfpipe like Shaun White if we drank enough Red Bull.

People critique Lance's persona and they never met him. They judge his life, his lifestyle, his style, who he hung with, who he left behind and meanwhile, if they looked around at their Rider Gang or their own Rider Mafia, they'd find one or two real-life dopers, druggies or worse...a friend with a zit.

Lance doesn't control anything or anyone. People allow themselves to be controlled. Did Lance lie? This is the only question. The only fair question. Were his accomplishments on the bike gained through a systematic ingestion of performance enhancing drugs, fraud, or were they created through genetics, training and the greatest comeback ever? Anything more than this and whoever is pointing the finger, throwing mud, sniping, is simply displaying a tantrum based on either hatred or jealousy; it's about the blood.

[witcombusa]

Lance defended Floyd and Tyler. As well as Tyler's Wonder Twin, power activate! A lot of cats resent or seethe towards Lance in the daydream they too, coulda been a contendah', had they injected some sauce. Genetics. Athletics. Dianetics; John Travolta could have awesome hair, but genes said no and as he places artificial pomade onto his woven mat, Muhammad Ali snickers at Cosell, "Howard, you are a phony. I'm gonna tell the world your hair is made by the tail of a pony."

The tip of the spear atop the climbs of Italy, France are the same as corner number four at Belmont and Kentucky; the four-legged animals are on steroids and diuretics, muscle, bones and a saddle. Juice gives them an extra ten percent. Too many riders or race entrants, signees upon BikeReg.com that place mid-pack, year in, year out, tease their ego with a whisper from their ID, "If you had a few extra red blood cells, you too could've shown that twirp from down south." A Camry LUX at a red light power-braking against a 2013 Camaro ZL1. In the morning shower, everyone's a rock star or folk hero and it's a one-man band.

Association. Wearing spandex, lycra, wool and skinsuits. Wearing Joe Montana's #16 jersey can't make the high school spazz into Joe Jock. Some riders who click on a website and click to enter a race and click PayPal entrance fees and get into the circle of a local race that only the local-locals know of, think they could be Lancelot as they don the shiny armor of lycra. We could all swim like Mark Spitz, sure. We could all halfpipe like Shaun White if we drank enough Red Bull.

People critique Lance's persona and they never met him. They judge his life, his lifestyle, his style, who he hung with, who he left behind and meanwhile, if they looked around at their Rider Gang or their own Rider Mafia, they'd find one or two real-life dopers, druggies or worse...a friend with a zit.

Lance doesn't control anything or anyone. People allow themselves to be controlled. Did Lance lie? This is the only question. The only fair question. Were his accomplishments on the bike gained through a systematic ingestion of performance enhancing drugs, fraud, or were they created through genetics, training and the greatest comeback ever? Anything more than this and whoever is pointing the finger, throwing mud, sniping, is simply displaying a tantrum based on either hatred or jealousy; it's about the blood.

Or not....

[Elefantino]

Well now that the pendulum has tipped and clearly there was a doping system in place, where does that leave all the hope and inspiration that once was inseparable from the story that no one could have ever scripted ... Do all those who clung to what they assumed were superhuman feats feel cheated? Duped?!?
There is a group Lance owes an explanation to. ... It's the people who where inspired by his story and who his foundation touched.
I have no real sh*ts to give on whether to be right or wrong about this, but I will offer the following:

I know someone who had SIII ovarian cancer surgery at age 79, the day before the '99 Tour. She spent three weeks in the hospital, recovering, watching highlights on ESPN every day of LA's progress. Others on the floor noticed. ("Hey, a guy who almost died from a cancer is winning that big bike race!") She was released one day before Paris. We watched CBS on Sunday and saw his victory, and we both cried tears of joy.

Two years later, her story led to an invitation from the LAF to go to Austin and speak at a panel with LA at RFTR. She told others, movingly, about how a sport she never really cared about and a man she didn't know helped inspire her to recover, and live. She has a picture of the two of them together on her wall.

It will not be taken down.

It's too bad, she said, if he cheated. It's too bad if he did all those things people say he did. But her world continued, and continues at age 92, in no small part to the inspiration he provided her and millions of others then and since.

Does his cheating erase all that? Should the people he inspired say, "well, eff it, he cheated cycling, he cheated me" and feel like they are living because of a lie?

I don't have the answer to these questions, any more than I have answers to whether he doped. I do know this, truly, though: My mom is alive today in part because he maybe/probably/definitely did. I am not saying that the end justifies the means. Like most people, I think dopers suck. But when I look at the yellow band on my wrist I still know that I wear it for their accomplishments, not his.

No one, not the USADA, the ASO, the WADA or the Paceline, can change that.

[Fixed]

I have no real sh*ts to give on whether to be right or wrong about this, but I will offer the following:

I know someone who had SIII ovarian cancer surgery at age 79, the day before the '99 Tour. She spent three weeks in the hospital, recovering, watching highlights on ESPN every day of LA's progress. Others on the floor noticed. ("Hey, a guy who almost died from a cancer is winning that big bike race!") She was released one day before Paris. We watched CBS on Sunday and saw his victory, and we both cried tears of joy.

Two years later, her story led to an invitation from the LAF to go to Austin and speak at a panel with LA at RFTR. She told others, movingly, about how a sport never really cared about and a man she didn't know helped inspire her to recover, and live. She has a picture of the two of them together on her wall.

It will not be taken down.

It's too bad, she said, if he cheated. It's too bad if he did all those things people say he did. But her world continued, and continues at age 92, in no small part to the inspiration he provided her and millions of others then and since.

Does his cheating erase all that? Should the people he inspired say, "well, eff it, he cheated cycling, he cheated me" and feel like they are living because of a lie?

I don't have the answer to these questions, any more than I have answers to whether he doped. I do know this, truly, though: My mom is alive today in no small part because he maybe/probably/definitely did. I am not saying that the end justifies the means. Like most people, I think dopers suck. But when I look at the yellow band on my wrist I still know that I wear it for their accomplishments, not his.

No one, not the USADA, the ASO, the WADA or the Paceline, can change that.
Nice post.
Lance cheated death and helped others to do the same thing ..
Give your mom a hug for me ,My mom had the same thing and I can't hug her any longer
Cheers

[Earl Gray]

....I am not saying that the end justifies the means...

Sometimes, the end absolutly justifies the means.

If the Lance story qualifies as such is up to each of us.

I'm just glad I don't live my life full of hate!

Regardless of what happens, people will hate him and people will love him.

[r_mutt]

What about Bassons and the hundreds of other cyclists who refuse to dope? The problem with the standard "everybody was doping" excuse for Lance is that there were lots of guys who weren't- and they were cheated.

[Germany_chris]

What about Bassons and the hundreds of other cyclists who refuse to dope? The problem with the standard "everybody was doping" excuse for Lance is that there were lots of guys who weren't- and they were cheated.

Sometimes your values have a cost.

[witcombusa]

Sometimes, the end absolutly justifies the means.

If the Lance story qualifies as such is up to each of us.

I'm just glad I don't live my life full of hate!

Regardless of what happens, people will hate him and people will love him.


How you do something is at least as important as what gets done

The end NEVER justifies the means

[Earl Gray]

..The end NEVER justifies the means

We will simply have to agree to disagree on this point.

[Rueda Tropical]

I'm just glad I don't live my life full of hate!

Nothing to do with love or hate. If you are loving or hating some celebrity you don't know you have other problems.

It's an old story, politicians, religious leaders, business leaders, athletes who at some point inspire people and even make a positive difference in some peoples lives turn out to be crooks and frauds. The less savory of them try to use whatever good works they may have done or inspired as cover for their mis-deeds.

The world is screwed up as it is because so many in a position of responsibility choose to do the wrong thing for self gain. When they get nailed they should pay the price. Rewarding bad behavior and punishing doing the right thing does not result in good outcomes for sport or society.

[Tony T]

This issue will forever be tethered to the cancer thing. I feel bad for all touched by the condition. I would never want my remarks or points of view mistaken as being at any of these folks. If they were/are able to be inspired by a cyclist, well fine. I will never understand that part of the equation because my adult life has been spent following the sport. If any of us availed ourselves of what these players have at their disposal, we would likely rise to a higher physical plane too.

If all LA did was "inspire", I would agree with you, however, the LAF does more than "inspire", much more.

.

[e-RICHIE]

<snip> ...however, the LAF does more than "inspire", much more.

.

I am sure it does - really. Many institutions, De Beers and J.P. Morgan to name
just two, also inspire despite their checkered pasts (not to mention presents).
May LAF have a good and long run regardless. I mean that.

[1happygirl]

It's sad that George H. will have to admit to doping the same year that he retires.
yes it is.
All the young riders he helped on BMC must now feel "duped" ;)
not really as they were asking questions, learning the 'trade', even if that is doping in my opinion
I'm over thinking sports is pure. Never thought I would be in this camp, agreeing with ppl. who felt this way.
I care in the effect of what ER asks will this crush the dreams of some patients? Is the $$ and time worth it? i've changed and say no, not worth it. that being said, then I have to apply the same to all the dopers.
This will crush US Cycling and others will continue anyway.

[cfox]

I'm not sure I follow the argument some have made that he should just come clean. Seems a bit starry-eyed and naive to me. Why now, why not back during his first press conference during the '99 tour? Reporters asked him about it then, it was the same lie then it is now. Without a (official/public/whatever) positive test, why would Lance suddenly come around? He suddenly is supposed to just admit it now?

[firerescuefin]

This will crush US Cycling and others will continue anyway.

How is this going to "crush" US Cycling.. The "Lance effect" stopped being truly relevant in 05 and ended completely after 2.0. It may change the POV of the Sportscenter crowd...but that is all.

[PQJ]

I'm not sure I follow the argument some have made that he should just come clean. Seems a bit starry-eyed and naive to me. Why now, why not back during his first press conference during the '99 tour? Reporters asked him about it then, it was the same lie then it is now. Without a (official/public/whatever) positive test, why would Lance suddenly come around? He suddenly is supposed to just admit it now?

It was somewhat plausible in '99. Or at least theoretically possible. Now we know it is completely implausible that he didn't. Or at least theoretically impossible.

And positive or negative tests don't mean a whole lot. Just ask Ricco. Or even Lance.

[1happygirl]

How is this going to "crush" US Cycling.. The "Lance effect" stopped being truly relevant in 05 and ended completely after 2.0. It may change the POV of the Sportscenter crowd...but that is all.
Hey FRF
Gotta remember here on the PL we are a super obsessed group of ppl that love cycling.
Cycling is a fringe sport.
The Sportscenter crowd is what funds the major money making big time sports like American Football, Major League Baseball etc.
This is why I can't watch or find any cycling news anywhere.
This publicity is not what we need. Most ppl that weren't cycling ppl tuned in because of Lance, and the Lance effect. Ppl still remember and some continue to tune in because of it. It's hard to imagine because we liked the sport to start with.
Others will continue to dope and we will have banned or sanctioned any of our American cycling successes and those of future generations.
Just my opinion. Taking a quick poll of my coworkers and cycling. They ask what is that?
But they do know Lance and cancer and other sports.

[firerescuefin]

Hey FRF
Gotta remember here on the PL we are a super obsessed group of ppl that love cycling.
Cycling is a fringe sport.
The Sportscenter crowd is what funds the major money making big time sports like American Football, Major League Baseball etc.
This is why I can't watch or find any cycling news anywhere.
This publicity is not what we need. Most ppl that weren't cycling ppl tuned in because of Lance, and the Lance effect. Ppl still remember and some continue to tune in because of it. It's hard to imagine because we liked the sport to start with.
Others will continue to dope and we will have banned or sanctioned any of our American cycling successes and those of future generations.

I just don't believe he is bringing people into or pushing people out of the sport at this point. If your post was in 03 or 04, I would agree that it could be catastrophic to short/medium term growth. I'm just not seeing it at this point. The Sportscenter crowd is a big 3 sport crowd that may have interest in Armstrong, but wouldn't know a Fabian Cancellara from "Brut by Faberge"...On their best day they look at cycling as a fringe sport/activity. IMO...this will have litte if no effect.

[William]

Some folks have never tested positive either. It can happen...

Marion Lois Jones (born October 12, 1975), also known as Marion Jones-Thompson, is a former world champion track and field athlete, and a former professional basketball player for Tulsa Shock in the WNBA. She won five medals at the 2000 Summer Olympics in Sydney, Australia, but forfeited all medals and prizes dating back to September 2000 after her October 2007 admission that she took performance-enhancing drugs as far back as the 2000 Summer Olympics, and that she had lied about it to a grand jury investigating performance-enhancer creations by Victor Conte and the Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative (a.k.a. BALCO).

Throughout her entire athletic career—even in high school—Marion Jones had been accused, either outright or by implication, of taking performance enhancing drugs, a common allegation surrounding athletes involved in the sports under the "Track and Field" umbrella. Until 2007, Jones routinely denied—in almost every way possible and in almost any venue where the question arose—ever being involved with performance enhancers in any way, shape, or form. One of Jones's frequent statements in her own defense was that she had never tested positive for performance enhancing substances; in her autobiography, she blamed the 2002 breakup of her marriage to C.J. Hunter in part on the fact that Hunter had tested positive for steroids four times before the 2000 Olympics, tainting her own drug-free image. However, the rumors and accusations that started when Jones missed a random drug test in high school in the early 1990s (Jones claimed she never received the letter notifying her of the required test; attorney Johnnie Cochran successfully got the four-year ban from track and field competition, the penalty for missing a random drug test, overturned)[5] continued to follow her through two Olympiads and several championship meets. Soon, a pattern of Jones choosing to train with both coaches and athletes who were also being dogged by rumors and accusations of performance enhancement drugs began to emerge.

The BALCO investigation

On December 3, 2004, Victor Conte, the founder of BALCO, appeared in an interview with Martin Bashir on ABC's 20/20. In the interview, Conte told a national audience that he had personally given Jones five different illegal performance enhancing drugs before, during and after the 2000 Sydney Olympic Games. In the course of investigative research, San Francisco based reporters Lance Williams and Mark Fainaru-Wada reported Jones had received banned drugs from BALCO, citing documentary evidence and testimony from Jones's ex-husband C.J. Hunter, who claims to have seen Jones inject herself in the stomach with the steroids.[20]

According to Hunter's 2004 testimony before a federal grand jury, Jones' use of banned drugs began well before Sydney.[21] Hunter told the investigators that Jones first obtained EPO from Graham, who Hunter said had a Mexican connection for the drug. Later, Hunter said, Graham met Conte, who began providing the coach with BALCO "nutritional supplements", which were actually an experimental class of "designer" steroids said to be undetectable by any drug screening procedures available at the time. Graham then distributed the performance enhancers to Jones and other Sprint Capitol athletes. Still later, Hunter told federal agents, Jones began receiving drugs directly from Conte.

Jones had never failed a drug test using the then-existing testing procedures, and insufficient evidence was found to bring charges regarding other untested performance enhancing drugs.
2006 EPO tests

The Washington Post, citing unidentified sources with knowledge of drug results from the USA Track and Field Championships in Indianapolis, IN, reported that on June 23, 2006, an "A" sample of Marion Jones' urine tested positive for Erythropoietin (EPO), a banned performance-enhancer. Jones withdrew from the Weltklasse Golden League meet in Switzerland, citing "personal reasons", and once more denied using performance-enhancing drugs. She retained lawyer Howard Jacobs, who has represented many athletes in doping cases, including Tim Montgomery and cyclist Floyd Landis. On September 6, 2006, Jones' lawyers announced that her "B" sample had tested negative, which cleared her from the doping allegations.
Admission of perjury during BALCO investigation

On October 5, 2007, Jones admitted to lying to federal agents about her use of steroids prior to the 2000 Summer Olympics and pled guilty at the US District Court for the Southern District of New York (in White Plains).[3] She confessed to Judge Kenneth Karas that she had made false statements regarding the BALCO case and a check-fraud case. She was released on her own recognizance but was required to surrender both her US and Belizean passports, pending sentencing in January. Although a maximum sentence of five years could be imposed, the prosecution recommended no more than six months as part of Jones' plea bargain.[22]

After her legal admission of perjury, Jones held a press conference, where she finally publicly admitted taking steroids before the Sydney 2000 Summer Olympics and acknowledged that she had, in fact, lied when she previously denied steroid use in statements to the press, to various sports agencies, and—most significantly—to two grand juries......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Jones






William

[laupsi]

Some folks have never tested positive either. It can happen...






William

but he has

[beeatnik]

The Lance story can be seen as a manifestation of our culture's paucity of imagination. My mom is a 3x cancer survivor. She is one of the few people on the planet to have endured 3 heart tumors, 16 months of inpatient chemotherapy (the most barbaric of treatments), 5 major resections, clinical trials, countless ICU admissions, wbc lower than critically ill AIDS patients. I mention her struggle because she has never compromised her values. Most cancer patients will never know her story (although she's in the medical literature and fellow patients gain much inspiration from her) but her integrity shames and, in my opinion, exposes the hypocrisy (I never use that word) of a man whose sporting triumphs and philanthropic legacy will always be intertwined. If I were a cancer survivor, my opinion of this man would be even less favorable. My opinion of him as a man, not as a sportsman; I'm not a naive boy.

[Tony T]

I am sure it does - really. Many institutions, De Beers and J.P. Morgan to name
just two, also inspire despite their checkered pasts (not to mention presents).
May LAF have a good and long run regardless. I mean that.

Well, at least you're not now invoking Bernie Madoff ;)

.

[Rueda Tropical]

If Tygart could only have been paid off to make everything go away. That would have been best for cycling. Obviously something wrong with the guy. Why can't he be more like the management of the UCI?

[54ny77]

In all seriousness, godspeed to your mom for a rich & full life ahead of her.

Wow. That story is humbling.

The Lance story can be seen as a manifestation of our culture's paucity of imagination. My mom is a 3x cancer survivor. She is one of the few people on the planet to have endured 3 heart tumors, 16 months of inpatient chemotherapy (the most barbaric of treatments), 5 major resections, clinical trials, countless ICU admissions, wbc lower than critically ill AIDS patients.

[1happygirl]

Some folks have never tested positive either. It can happen...

snip jones article

William

Hey William,

dont you think the only person who suffered was Jones?
Lot's of ppl in her era got away and many now are still doing it.
Doesn't make it right, but seems one sided and just like a lot of things that are meant to send a message and act as a deterrent, they don't. I'm looking at the broad picture of American cycling and American Track and Field.
asking because even though I have changed my views over the years about LA, doesn't mean I can't change again once more info comes to light

[Climb01742]

The Lance story can be seen as a manifestation of our culture's paucity of imagination. My mom is a 3x cancer survivor. She is one of the few people on the planet to have endured 3 heart tumors, 16 months of inpatient chemotherapy (the most barbaric of treatments), 5 major resections, clinical trials, countless ICU admissions, wbc lower than critically ill AIDS patients. I mention her struggle because she has never compromised her values. Most cancer patients will never know her story (although she's in the medical literature and fellow patients gain much inspiration from her) but her integrity shames and, in my opinion, exposes the hypocrisy (I never use that word) of a man whose sporting triumphs and philanthropic legacy will always be intertwined. If I were a cancer survivor, my opinion of this man would be even less favorable. My opinion of him as a man, not as a sportsman; I'm not a naive boy.

may the universe smile on your mom. she's paid her dues. thank you for sharing her story and your POV.

[beeatnik]

Thanks for the kind words. Although cancer-free, the last two months have been rough. Her 63rd birthday is fast approaching and so is the 20th anniversary of her first remission. But, she's currently in the UCLA Med Center but in great spirits. She continues to fight for the right things, IMO. Her faith and humility are boundless. I know there are many people in the world like her. Unfortunately, there are, without a doubt, more people like LA (and myself). We often pick the wrong heroes. Human nature...

In all seriousness, godspeed to your mom for a rich & full life ahead of her.

Wow. That story is humbling.

[William]

Hey William,

dont you think the only person who suffered was Jones?
Lot's of ppl in her era got away and many now are still doing it.
Doesn't make it right, but seems one sided and just like a lot of things that are meant to send a message and act as a deterrent, they don't. I'm looking at the broad picture of American cycling and American Track and Field.

Well, some may give her props for coming clean, but she only came clean when there was no other choice. I think you are correct that many others got away and in that sense it may not seem fair that she got clipped. When you are at the pinnacle of your sport/profession, you've got a target on your back and many folks who want to knock you off. If there are skeletons in the closet, you can only keep them there so long. Time has a way exposing things...times change, organizations change, relationships change, people change. At many things in life, people only focus on the short term....it's the long term that will expose things in the end.

Is being caught a deterrent to others? Maybe to some, but many people with the ego and killer instinct get to the top tend to believe they are invincible so probably not.





William

[William]

The Lance story can be seen as a manifestation of our culture's paucity of imagination. My mom is a 3x cancer survivor. She is one of the few people on the planet to have endured 3 heart tumors, 16 months of inpatient chemotherapy (the most barbaric of treatments), 5 major resections, clinical trials, countless ICU admissions, wbc lower than critically ill AIDS patients. I mention her struggle because she has never compromised her values. Most cancer patients will never know her story (although she's in the medical literature and fellow patients gain much inspiration from her) but her integrity shames and, in my opinion, exposes the hypocrisy (I never use that word) of a man whose sporting triumphs and philanthropic legacy will always be intertwined. If I were a cancer survivor, my opinion of this man would be even less favorable. My opinion of him as a man, not as a sportsman; I'm not a naive boy.


Sending positive thoughts, good karma, and prayers her way.



William

[laupsi]

The Lance story can be seen as a manifestation of our culture's paucity of imagination. My mom is a 3x cancer survivor. She is one of the few people on the planet to have endured 3 heart tumors, 16 months of inpatient chemotherapy (the most barbaric of treatments), 5 major resections, clinical trials, countless ICU admissions, wbc lower than critically ill AIDS patients. I mention her struggle because she has never compromised her values. Most cancer patients will never know her story (although she's in the medical literature and fellow patients gain much inspiration from her) but her integrity shames and, in my opinion, exposes the hypocrisy (I never use that word) of a man whose sporting triumphs and philanthropic legacy will always be intertwined. If I were a cancer survivor, my opinion of this man would be even less favorable. My opinion of him as a man, not as a sportsman; I'm not a naive boy.

thank you!!! talk about your Holy Grail, (yes this one's for you Mr. Earl and be nice or I'll ask you to gather your marbles and go home!), and talk about wearing it on one's sleeve. no one is doubting that LA spent time doing charity work raising money for cancer and he should be commended for this, but please, enough already. do you actually think he thought of this livestrong campiagn on his own accord? his dream, his very idea, his life's purpose? should he be held to the same status as say a saint or Mother Teresa perhaps? was he the architect of the whole kit and kabootle? did his actions cause him to sacrifice anything at all meaningful in terms of his livelyhood or his well being? I venture to ask, how many of us w/"normal" lives and normal jobs also volunteer but w/out notice, fan fare or any acknowledgement other than our very own pride?

I don't know the facts so I will claim ignorance to the exact details but I am pretty certain the folks at the cancer awareness fund raising camps saw mr armstrong coming from far away and got all their smart people together to devise a way to capitalize on his success. inspiration comes from many places and success is defined differently by a whole host of folks to mean different things. all of it worthy.

If LA wasn't such a dick there wouldn't be so many coming to his rescue. remember it takes great men to do good w/no incentive. LA had all the incentive in the world and respect to boot and through his own actions he has squandered most of what he gained. I am not projecting or claiming LA is a simple poster boy, but come on, this argument that he has done so much good is a bit simplistic.

[Rueda Tropical]

remember it takes great men to do good w/no incentive.

Gino Bartoli:
“If you’re good at a sport, they attach the medals to your shirts and then they shine in some museum. That which is earned by doing good deeds is attached to the soul and shines elsewhere.”

Bartoli risked his life and his families safety to help Italian Jews during the Nazi occupation of Italy. He didn't ask for any recognition or try and parlay it into a brand building exercise to enhance his commercial value. On the contrary he risked losing everything to do the right thing. He was a real hero.

[54ny77]

Believe me I can relate.

Our best to your mom, and be strong for her.

Thanks for the kind words. Although cancer-free, the last two months have been rough. Her 63rd birthday is fast approaching and so is the 20th anniversary of her first remission. But, she's currently in the UCLA Med Center but in great spirits. She continues to fight for the right things, IMO. Her faith and humility are boundless. I know there are many people in the world like her. Unfortunately, there are, without a doubt, more people like LA (and myself). We often pick the wrong heroes. Human nature...

[Elefantino]

Gino Bartoli:
“If you’re good at a sport, they attach the medals to your shirts and then they shine in some museum. That which is earned by doing good deeds is attached to the soul and shines elsewhere.”

Bartoli risked his life and his families safety to help Italian Jews during the Nazi occupation of Italy. He didn't ask for any recognition or try and parlay it into a brand building exercise to enhance his commercial value. On the contrary he risked losing everything to do the right thing. He was a real hero.
I have just received a book on Bartoli that I'm going to read. Looks very interesting.

The Lance story can be seen as a manifestation of our culture's paucity of imagination. My mom is a 3x cancer survivor. She is one of the few people on the planet to have endured 3 heart tumors, 16 months of inpatient chemotherapy (the most barbaric of treatments), 5 major resections, clinical trials, countless ICU admissions, wbc lower than critically ill AIDS patients. I mention her struggle because she has never compromised her values. Most cancer patients will never know her story (although she's in the medical literature and fellow patients gain much inspiration from her) but her integrity shames and, in my opinion, exposes the hypocrisy (I never use that word) of a man whose sporting triumphs and philanthropic legacy will always be intertwined. If I were a cancer survivor, my opinion of this man would be even less favorable. My opinion of him as a man, not as a sportsman; I'm not a naive boy.
Bless your mom and her courage.

[firerescuefin]

Bingo


thank you!!! talk about your Holy Grail, (yes this one's for you Mr. Earl and be nice or I'll ask you to gather your marbles and go home!), and talk about wearing it on one's sleeve. no one is doubting that LA spent time doing charity work raising money for cancer and he should be commended for this, but please, enough already. do you actually think he thought of this livestrong campiagn on his own accord? his dream, his very idea, his life's purpose? should he be held to the same status as say a saint or Mother Teresa perhaps? was he the architect of the whole kit and kabootle? did his actions cause him to sacrifice anything at all meaningful in terms of his livelyhood or his well being? I venture to ask, how many of us w/"normal" lives and normal jobs also volunteer but w/out notice, fan fare or any acknowledgement other than our very own pride?

I don't know the facts so I will claim ignorance to the exact details but I am pretty certain the folks at the cancer awareness fund raising camps saw mr armstrong coming from far away and got all their smart people together to devise a way to capitalize on his success. inspiration comes from many places and success is defined differently by a whole host of folks to mean different things. all of it worthy.

If LA wasn't such a dick there wouldn't be so many coming to his rescue. remember it takes great men to do good w/no incentive. LA had all the incentive in the world and respect to boot and through his own actions he has squandered most of what he gained. I am not projecting or claiming LA is a simple poster boy, but come on, this argument that he has done so much good is a bit simplistic.

[Viper]

In all of the chatter, gossip, chaos, ugliness and dirt, there is it's polar opposite. The struggle and story of Mommy beeatnik. Controversial images, ideas and people can do that, generating activity, animosity and then also amazing tales of courage. Mom beeatnik. A little bit of controversy can be a good thing and sometimes a ton of it is even better; the discussion of Lance Armstrong can spark such events.

"I've had a long time to make enemies...so many governments, business interests, even religious leaders that would like to see me depart this Earth. I'll grant them their wish soon enough. But before I do, I wish to make a small contribution. A final gesture of good will to the people of this little planet who have given—from whom I have taken—so much" said S.R. Hadden in 'Contact'. Armstrong could've said the same atop le podium in 2005.

Viva le Mommy beeatnik.

[Vientomas]

"Wanna take a ride?"

[r_mutt]

Sometimes your values have a cost.

values? like cheating is ok if you can off-set it with a foundation set up in your name?

[Tony T]

values? like cheating is ok if you can off-set it with a foundation set up in your name?

That's a new one. LA set up the LAF to mask doping! Well, at least you didn't say that he used his cancer to "off-set cheating" Or maybe in 1999 his weight loss due to his cancer gave him an unfair advantage.

...or maybe he didn't have cancer at all, just said he did to set up a foundation so that he could cheat! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[PQJ]

That's a new one. LA set up the LAF to mask doping! Well, at least you didn't say that he used his cancer to "off-set cheating" Or maybe in 1999 his weight loss due to his cancer gave him an unfair advantage.

...or maybe he didn't have cancer at all, just said he did to set up a foundation so that he could cheat! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Or maybe him and his handlers realized the extent to which the outward appearance of benevolence and wholesomeness could be used as a shield in the present and future for nefarious practices. Not saying lance hasn't done some good things or that him and his handlers didn't have any good intentions, but I think it is naive to ignore the inherently self-serving nature (monetarily) of the enterprise, both for lance personally and for the private or quasi-private enterprises that have reaped a windfall from lance inc.

[Tom]

Or maybe him and his handlers realized the extent to which the outward appearance of benevolence and wholesomeness could be used as a shield in the present and future for nefarious practices. Not saying lance hasn't done some good things or that him and his handlers didn't have any good intentions, but I think it is naive to ignore the inherently self-serving nature (monetarily) of the enterprise, both for lance personally and for the private or quasi-private enterprises that have reaped a windfall from lance inc.

Or it could be used to sell bikes and whatever else his name is associated with.

[Fixed]

He cheated death but he will be back .
:fight:
Cheers

[gone]

I'm curious what the burden of proof (in a legal sense) is for stripping Lance of one or more of his tour titles or any other punishment USADA might impose? Based on what I've read, the USADA complaint consists of two things:

Blood samples that indicate use of EPO, transfusions or both
Testimony from 10 people.

For the first, a reasonable defense (and one that's been employed in the past) is one of control i.e., if the samples were ever not under strict security and control they could be argued to have been tampered with.

For the second, without any admissible evidence (c.f. item one) is testimony sufficient? If ten people are willing to swear I killed someone but there's no admissible physical evidence, is that enough to convict me? I think not.

My guess is this will play out for quite some time to no eventual effect.

[54ny77]

After cheating death, maybe to him everything else is a walk in the park. A game, if you will. Call it a miracle, a strong will, or whatever it was that did it, that in & of itself is nothing to sneeze at. I don't begrudge the guy one iota for beating (or at least keeping at bay) the demon cancer.

As for his exploits on a bike, eh, however he got there is his own problem and those chips will fall where they may.



He cheated death but he will be back .
:fight:
Cheers

[cfox]

I'm curious what the burden of proof (in a legal sense) is for stripping Lance of one or more of his tour titles or any other punishment USADA might impose? Based on what I've read, the USADA complaint consists of two things:

Blood samples that indicate use of EPO, transfusions or both
Testimony from 10 people.

For the first, a reasonable defense (and one that's been employed in the past) is one of control i.e., if the samples were ever not under strict security and control they could be argued to have been tampered with.

For the second, without any admissible evidence (c.f. item one) is testimony sufficient? If ten people are willing to swear I killed someone but there's no admissible physical evidence, is that enough to convict me? I think not.

My guess is this will play out for quite some time to no eventual effect.
I'm curious about this, too. I'm guessing if they have blood that 'indicates' epo/transfusion, I assume they are referring to bio passport data. Bio passport data isn't a positive test per se, but it can and has been used for bans.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . and the USADA can use whatever criteria they want, though the convicted offender can appeal to the CAS, which has the authority to overturn the conviction. At least that's my understanding.

I also read this is not the first time they have charged someone using only circumstantial evidence.

I think if all ten people testified they watched you kill someone and dispose of the body, but there's no body and no murder weapon, then yeah, you're still done. In this case with Lance his previous defense always seems to have been that the accuser is an agenda-driven liar. And in the past he and his lawyers/PR flacks were able to raise enough doubts that the accusations didn't stick.

But in those cases the accusers were always "little people" or somehow already compromised themselves--a former personal assistant, a former team soigneur--a media type peddling books--or fellow riders who were already disgraced for lying about their own doping and then admitting it.

But if ten fellow riders and teammates all testify to the same thing--that they watched him do it? And especially if some of them are people like Hincapie, Liepheimer, Vande Velde, Zabriskie--who have never been accused of or admitted doping themselves? That's an entirely different kettle of EPO . . .

BBD



I'm curious what the burden of proof (in a legal sense) is for stripping Lance of one or more of his tour titles or any other punishment USADA might impose? Based on what I've read, the USADA complaint consists of two things:

Blood samples that indicate use of EPO, transfusions or both
Testimony from 10 people.

For the first, a reasonable defense (and one that's been employed in the past) is one of control i.e., if the samples were ever not under strict security and control they could be argued to have been tampered with.

For the second, without any admissible evidence (c.f. item one) is testimony sufficient? If ten people are willing to swear I killed someone but there's no admissible physical evidence, is that enough to convict me? I think not.

My guess is this will play out for quite some time to no eventual effect.

[rain dogs]

It's "Non-analytical positives" which is in the WADA code. You don't have to return a positive test to be banned, this is old, old, old news. You just have to be shown to have attempted to have doped or to doped without a positive.

Think Alejandro Valverde. CONI found blood bags from when he was on team Kelme, in 2004, his second year pro. He never tested positive, no one knows if he ever used those bags, but WADA doesn't care. It's a violation to even have your blood stored like that.

So he was banned for two years, 6 years after the date on the bags.

If there is overwhleming evidence that Armstrong doped, which includes testimony against him, or even attempted to dope (trafficked, purchased, possessed) that's a direct violation by the WADA code. Full Stop.

It has been forever, it's been the same for everyone. Basso is another.

People say "Oh my tax payer money is being wasted pursuing this." What your tax payer money wasn't wasted paying for his doping when he was on USPS?

[Viper]

. . . and the USADA can use whatever criteria they want, though the convicted offender can appeal to the CAS, which has the authority to overturn the conviction. At least that's my understanding.

I also read this is not the first time they have charged someone using only circumstantial evidence.
BBD

Read the above and imagine being in the hot seat.

Forget cycling.

Change the acronym of USADA into USDA (US District Attorney). How does a Kangaroo Court, a fake, mock court without proper principles of law and justice believe it has the capacity to pervert and pull strings? The Scales grasped by Lady Justice, Themsis' daughter, Dike, are held by a soft right hand, while the left hand carries a sword, which is double-sided, able to carry out justice to either party.

The internet is laden with those from the far left, right and inbetween who scream, "You (agency, group or entity) cannot come into my home without a warrant and you cannot monitor my computer at home" but it's acceptable for an agency to use whatever criteria they want with my blood?

This sounds like science fiction, some Tom Cruise movie, 'Minority Report', where you're found guilty of crimes prior to commiting them; if USADA wants to keep the acronym, "USA" and the moniker therein, they God damned well better play by the rules of the US Constitution. Lance Armstrong and EPO today? One thing. Agencies that work as described above with the name 'USA' and robotic "Pre-Cogs" offering mental-guilt? They can go **** themselves if they play ball that way.

You have blood? Evidence? Facts? Take it to a real court, get a real jury, find him guilty and throw the book at Lance. You have speculation, innuendo, songs and dance? USADA and any other agency as such can kiss my arse.

Lady Justice is often depticed as blindfolded. USADA ought to remove it's dark OAKLEY's and either state evidence, facts and data, or go for a ride.

[rain dogs]

Read the above and imagine being in the hot seat.

Forget cycling.

Change the acronym of USADA into USDA (US District Attorney). How does a Kangaroo Court, a fake, mock court without proper principles of law and justice believe it has the capacity to pervert and pull strings? The Scales grasped by Lady Justice, Themsis' daughter, Dike, are held by a soft right hand, while the left hand carries a sword, which is double-sided, able to carry out justice to either party.

The internet is laden with those from the far left, right and inbetween who scream, "You (agency, group or entity) cannot come into my home without a warrant and you cannot monitor my computer at home" but it's acceptable for an agency to use whatever criteria they want with my blood?

This sounds like science fiction, some Tom Cruise movie, 'Minority Report', where you're found guilty of crimes prior to commiting them; if USADA wants to keep the acronym, "USA" and the moniker therein, they God damned well better play by the rules of the US Constitution. Lance Armstrong and EPO today? One thing. Agencies that work as described above with the name 'USA' and robotic "Pre-Cogs" offering mental-guilt? They can go **** themselves if they play ball that way.

You have blood? Evidence? Facts? Take it to a real court, get a real jury, find him guilty and throw the book at Lance. You have speculation, innuendo, songs and dance? USADA and any other agency as such can kiss my arse.

Lady Justice is often depticed as blindfolded. USADA ought to remove it's dark OAKLEY's and either state evidence, facts and data, or go for a ride.

Again. Non-analytical positive.

You don't seem to understand the rules of the sport, and of the World Anti-Doping Agency Code... that all riders agree to when they sign for a UCI license.

It astonished me that people can be so silly to hang onto Lance's PR spin doctoring, hyperbole and strawman. I think we're smarter than that. Kangaroo court? That's funny.

Hanging on to "positives" is hanging on to denial. People can live that way if they want.

Lance doesn't have to test positive to be banned. Dozens of riders have been banned with a non-analytical positive.

[weiwentg]

I have just received a book on Bartoli that I'm going to read. Looks very interesting.


Bless your mom and her courage.

Gino Bartali. Michele Bartoli. Different folks.

[Elefantino]

Gino Bartali. Michele Bartoli. Different folks.
It's on Gino. Called "Road to Valor"

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UYt0P5aDL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA278_PIkin4,BottomRight,-61,22_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

[1centaur]

People say "Oh my tax payer money is being wasted pursuing this." What your tax payer money wasn't wasted paying for his doping when he was on USPS?

First, two wrongs don't make a right. Every decision to spend taxpayer dollars must be made on its own prospects.

Second, USPS got what it wanted from that contract (publicity for its European FedEx equivalent) and rationally would have wasted the money more so if in a non-doped state Lance had finished 27th. USPS got a lot of bang for those bucks.

There really is a difference between recognizing a wrong and going to any length to punish that wrong. The anti-doping impetus is already strong in cycling; resources are better spent stopping doping today and tomorrow than slogging through the mists of time to move the cycling world's opinion from 80% guilty to 82.3% guilty and the non-cycling public from 41% to 71%.

[JohnHemlock]

Lance could fall down an elevator shaft and land in a pool of mermaids. When Jeff Novitsky got sicced on him, there were forums of people all hollaring that the check was coming due, that a federal prosecutor could make even Popo sing like a canary. And. . . . zilch. Nada.

He will emerge from this without barely a nick. The only people who will hate him or villify him are the people who already do so. I will still see him in Aspen, laughing with his model girlfriend at the best restaurants. USADA is doing what they should've done years ago, fighting for a clean sport. But if you think it will be more than a minor inconvenience to Lance, you haven't been paying attention for the last 15 years. Legally, that cat is like a young Cassius Clay, nobody can lay a solid punch on him.

[Vientomas]

While I understand that the USADA is not a court of law, there are certain principles of the criminal justice system that may be of use in this particular case. One of which is deterrence. Typically a court in a criminal sentencing proceeding considers punishment, rehabilitation, the protection of society, and deterring others from committing the same conduct, when crafting a sentence. In this case, "convicting" a larger than life figure of his alleged misdeeds well after the fact may deter others from believing that they can get away with the same type of conduct and that they can rest easy after the passage of time.

Just a thought.

[54ny77]

Maybe one of the Olsen twins gave him a funky rash.

:p

Legally, that cat is like a young Cassius Clay, nobody can lay a solid punch on him.

[DreaminJohn]

This.

Atmo.




read the above and imagine being in the hot seat.

Forget cycling.

Change the acronym of usada into usda (us district attorney). How does a kangaroo court, a fake, mock court without proper principles of law and justice believe it has the capacity to pervert and pull strings? The scales grasped by lady justice, themsis' daughter, dike, are held by a soft right hand, while the left hand carries a sword, which is double-sided, able to carry out justice to either party.

The internet is laden with those from the far left, right and inbetween who scream, "you (agency, group or entity) cannot come into my home without a warrant and you cannot monitor my computer at home" but it's acceptable for an agency to use whatever criteria they want with my blood?

This sounds like science fiction, some tom cruise movie, 'minority report', where you're found guilty of crimes prior to commiting them; if usada wants to keep the acronym, "usa" and the moniker therein, they god damned well better play by the rules of the us constitution. Lance armstrong and epo today? One thing. Agencies that work as described above with the name 'usa' and robotic "pre-cogs" offering mental-guilt? They can go **** themselves if they play ball that way.

You have blood? Evidence? Facts? Take it to a real court, get a real jury, find him guilty and throw the book at lance. You have speculation, innuendo, songs and dance? Usada and any other agency as such can kiss my arse.

Lady justice is often depticed as blindfolded. Usada ought to remove it's dark oakley's and either state evidence, facts and data, or go for a ride.

[harryblack]

CORRECT!

"Funny" how all the "principled" "anti-doping" blowhards forget their "hard fought" principles when mere VENGEANCE ** seems ** within their grasp.

Tho' my first choice is see Lance at Kona and forget-- or accept-- all this crap, including the likelihood that forum faves Hincapie and Levi were happy long-term dopers, pre- and post- Lance/Bruyneel-- I'd love to see the USADA get slapped down for its arrogant and egregious ethics violations...

Ya'll either believe in due process or STFU with your b.s. principles of convenience, there's really no philosophical middle ground here.

This.

Atmo.

[witcombusa]

CORRECT!

"Funny" how all the "principled" "anti-doping" blowhards forget their "hard fought" principles when mere VENGEANCE ** seems ** within their grasp.

Tho' my first choice is see Lance at Kona and forget-- or accept-- all this crap, including the likelihood that forum faves Hincapie and Levi were happy long-term dopers, pre- and post- Lance/Bruyneel-- I'd love to see the USADA get slapped down for its arrogant and egregious ethics violations...

Ya'll either believe in due process or STFU with your b.s. principles of convenience, there's really no philosophical middle ground here.


HB....I wonder which "side" you're on :banana:

You be sure and give LA a big kiss of love and acceptance

[Tom]

...but it's acceptable for an agency to use whatever criteria they want with my blood?

if USADA wants to keep the acronym, "USA" and the moniker therein, they God damned well better play by the rules of the US Constitution....

USADA, according to their web site, is an 'independent, non-governmental agency' but does not say what the source of their funds is.

Why do they need to play by the rules of the Constitution if they are not a governmental entity?

Why are people so worked up over what may be exposed?

[christian]

Read the above and imagine being in the hot seat.

Forget cycling.

Change the acronym of USADA into USDA (US District Attorney).

[snip]

Lady Justice is often depticed as blindfolded. USADA ought to remove it's dark OAKLEY's and either state evidence, facts and data, or go for a ride.

I have never read such unmitigated nonsense ever. So congrats for that.

As a professional athlete, you compete under the rules of a given sanctioning body or sporting federation. Almost all international sporting federations are now signatories to the WADA agreement and, as such, any sportsman who engages in a signatory sport is subject to those rules.

This is not a legal trial. We're not talking about robbing a man of his freedom.

This is a national anti-doping organization, under agreement with a sporting federation, determining who can ride bicycles for pay. What constitutional and evidentiary standards you believe are required don't enter in to it. If you don't want to be bound by UCI and WADA rules, it's very simple - just don't try to make a living riding pushbikes. Christ, it's not hard to figure out.

[Viper]

Again. Non-analytical positive.

You don't seem to understand the rules of the sport, and of the World Anti-Doping Agency Code... that all riders agree to when they sign for a UCI license.

It astonished me that people can be so silly to hang onto Lance's PR spin doctoring, hyperbole and strawman. I think we're smarter than that. Kangaroo court? That's funny.

Hanging on to "positives" is hanging on to denial. People can live that way if they want.

Lance doesn't have to test positive to be banned. Dozens of riders have been banned with a non-analytical positive.

rain dogs,

Either I am a fool, not, or somewhere inbetween. Whichever the case may be, what is important for you to note and notice is this...two people have already replied in support and agreement with my post above. So either there's a lot of 'silly' people or simply people whose POV (on the subject of this thread) differs from yours.

If there was evidence Armstrong doped, he'd have been busted. Contador, the champion, he with all the people to protect him...down he went. Cadel clean in 2011? Schleck clean in 2009, 10 and 11? Lance could've been clean in 2009 and 2010 as well; USADA leaked something about Lance's blood or evidence from 2009 and 2010...show us or STFU.

I said "Kangaroo Court", an American verbiage-invention and I meant it the first time; Lance made the leap...to SRAM...USADA is able to take words, quotes, interviews and data perceived from the POV for which they need to fill-in the blanks in order to 'convict'? Armstrong made the leap, but that's a huge leap for justice:

"The term kangaroo court may have been popularized during the California Gold Rush of 1849. The first recorded use is from 1853 in a Texas context. It comes from the notion of justice proceeding "by leaps", like a kangaroo.The phrase is considered an Americanism and is still in common use."

[1happygirl]

Read the above and imagine being in the hot seat.

Forget cycling.

Change the acronym of USADA into USDA (US District Attorney). How does a Kangaroo Court, a fake, mock court without proper principles of law and justice believe it has the capacity to pervert and pull strings? The Scales grasped by Lady Justice, Themsis' daughter, Dike, are held by a soft right hand, while the left hand carries a sword, which is double-sided, able to carry out justice to either party.
snip.
+yes
Understand, I'm no LA lover. Even if you want to call the USADA an industry trade organization it has the power to pick and choose cases depending on who is on the organization or other subjective criteria as above.
You have the power to affect a person's livelihood as cycling is the person's livelihood.
Like a closed shop you have to accept it to compete. Sounds heavy handed?
I would have said definitely "get 'em" previously but now, not so sure. I'm into swift, fair things and seems they could have done something sooner than this.
ps the words "imagine yourself in the hotseat" are very powerful words.

[harryblack]

INCORRECT...

I'm on nobody's side but the due process stickler...

If ya'll can bag LA or whomever legitimately, great-- if he was that much of an arrogant sociopath to dope 2009-2010 ** ALSO ** then he's got-- & deserves-- a serious fall.

What are you going to say if it turns out the anti-Lance folks are so obsessed, that they OVER-"prosecuted"?

Which is to say any reasonably cycling fan can assume Lance-- along with all other pro cyclists of note in his era (Go Johann Musseuw!!) doped to greater and lesser degrees; usually greater... OK, deal with it.

What if Lance did NOT dope in 2009-2010?

Hmmmmmm...

HB....I wonder which "side" you're on :banana:

You be sure and give LA a big kiss of love and acceptance

[1happygirl]

delete

[BumbleBeeDave]

As a professional athlete, you compete under the rules of a given sanctioning body or sporting federation. Almost all international sporting federations are now signatories to the WADA agreement and, as such, any sportsman who engages in a signatory sport is subject to those rules.

This is not a legal trial. We're not talking about robbing a man of his freedom.

This is a national anti-doping organization, under agreement with a sporting federation, determining who can ride bicycles for pay. What constitutional and evidentiary standards you believe are required don't enter in to it. If you don't want to be bound by UCI and WADA rules, it's very simple - just don't try to make a living riding pushbikes.

It's their playground and he agreed to play by their rules on it. You can blather on about due process and persecution and haters and this that or the other all you want, but it's their show. It's their rules . . . and Lance agreed to play be them when he got his racing license.

Not fair? Well, maybe not. But surprise!--Life's not fair.

BBD

[witcombusa]

INCORRECT...

I'm on nobody's side but the due process stickler...

If ya'll can bag LA or whomever legitimately, great-- if he was that much of an arrogant sociopath to dope 2009-2010 ** ALSO ** then he's got-- & deserves-- a serious fall.

What are you going to say if it turns out the anti-Lance folks are so obsessed, that they OVER-"prosecuted"?

Which is to say any reasonably cycling fan can assume Lance-- along with all other pro cyclists of note in his era (Go Johann Musseuw!!) doped to greater and lesser degrees; usually greater... OK, deal with it.

What if Lance did NOT dope in 2009-2010?

Hmmmmmm...

It's so far beyond the doping that I really don't care at all about that. That is "status quo" in any sporting endevor that earns large sums of cash.

He should be knocked down simply for being the arrogant condescending controlling selfish dick that he is.

[saab2000]

So when, and how, does this move forward. Is there a hearing? They have stopped Lance from entering triathlons in the meantime.

What's the next step?

As to life being unfair, that's not how a legal system is based. Even though it's not a legal system per se based on a US system, there does need to be reasonable procedures and openness or else it just becomes a farce. Life may not be fair, but these situations need to be as transparent as possible.

Until now, nobody has come out with a true smoking gun. Just a lot of seemingly circumstantial evidence and innuendo. In the absence of clarity, the USADA doesn't look good. There needs to be a next step.

What is it?

[christian]

It's their playground and he agreed to play by their rules on it. One time when racing cars, I was penalized championship points for a rule infraction committed by a non-team member tire supplier which was observed by one witness and which the sanctioning body said afforded no competitive advantage.

Had I wished to contest the result, I could have lodged a protest, appealed an adverse result, protested to ACCUS, lodged an FIA protest, and potentially appealed to CAS. Every step of that process is clearly defined with clear timelines and rules, all of which clearly stipulate the rights and responsibilities of both the athlete and the sanctioning body. Point being, the rules might not comport to a given person's standard of fair play, but they're right there in the rulebook.

Costs $400 to buy a hotel on Park Place, too. Only way to avoid that is to play Battleship instead.

[christian]

What's the next step?Lance gets an opportunity to respond by June 22. Based on that response (if any) and other evidence, USADA determines whether to move forward with a hearing, which they will as they intend to seek sanction against any of the named participants.

The USADA Protocol and other docs are here: http://www.usada.org/publications-policies

[Viper]

So when, and how, does this move forward. Is there a hearing? They have stopped Lance from entering triathlons in the meantime.

What's the next step?

There needs to be a next step.

What is it?

I dunno. I think it involves an island in the Caribbean, USADA, a breathing apparatus, Omega watch and a shark whereby we all know Bond, Lance, will escape like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tjmc3AsYEzU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP8Ui9P3V6Y

In the meantime, it's either funny or sad to watch it all for thirteen years now.

PS: I sometimes lean towards Claudine Auger aka Domino as my # 1 Bond woman.

[harryblack]

Vengeance is mine sayeth WitconbUSA?

I strongly disagree with that mindset...

As others have have said LA ain't all one thing or another-- I know folks in Austin, for example, with very positive and somewhat negative views of the man-- but I don't 'get' the extreme enmity.

Greg LeMond, Floyd Landis, Joe Papp all are more deserving of your scorn with little if any compensating benevolence.

It's so far beyond the doping that I really don't care at all about that. That is "status quo" in any sporting endevor that earns large sums of cash.

He should be knocked down simply for being the arrogant condescending controlling selfish dick that he is.

[rain dogs]

two people have already replied in support and agreement with my post above. So either there's a lot of 'silly' people or simply people whose POV (on the subject of this thread) differs from yours.

If there was evidence Armstrong doped, he'd have been busted....show us or STFU.


Again, as I said... there are far too many people who are ignorant to the WADA code (ie... they don't read it (http://www.wada-ama.org/en/Resources/Anti-Doping-Glossary/)) AND there are far too many people who easily buy into Lance's spin doctoring. "This is unconsititutional", "This is a witchhunt", "This is a waste of tax payer money".... blah blah blah. :rolleyes: Those are the WADA rules. Armstrong agreed to them having a UCI license.

Do you understand "Non-analytical positive"? It sounds like you don't.

You say: "Show me the evidence or STFU".

They don't have to, even though they have shown people who remain in denial and ignorant of the rules. It's a "NON-ANALYTIC positive: an anti-doping rule violation other than the presence of a prohibited substance or its metabolites or markers in an athlete’s bodily specimen."

I'll make this simple for everyone. Pozzatto is facing a ban right now for visiting Michele Ferrari. This is a "Non-analitytic Positive" being enforced by CONI by their choice. Ferrari was banned by Italian law in criminal courts from working with cyclists. He effectively has a restraining order from being around or consulting cyclists. Clear?

Therefore, If you work with Ferrari, you are guilty of a "Non-analytic positive" for doping. It's against the rules.

I don't know how this is so difficult. :confused: You don't visit Michele Ferrari to buy flowers. You do it to dope, and he is legally forbidden to work with the likes of Armstrong. Doing so is cheating. Clear? Crystal. :no:

As well. Teammate testimony can be used to establish a "NON-ANALYTIC positive." in other words, possessing drugs is cheating. Distributing drugs is cheating. Storing drugs is cheating. They have 10 cyclists testifying that Armstrong did all of this, in addition to taking PED's but never returned a positive outside of his positive for corticosteroids. That is cheating. Guilty of "Non-analytic postive."

Clear? Crystal. :no:

Those are the rules.... have been for ages.

[Elefantino]

I sometimes lean towards Claudine Auger aka Domino as my # 1 Bond woman.
Oh, don't get me started ...

[PQJ]

We've put people to death based on circumstantial evidence alone (for crimes a number of them likely didn't commit), and they got the 'benefit' of our due process baloney. Yet we can't use what is likely clear and convincing circumstantial evidence to hold accountable a known doper (and cheat)? Yup, life (and death) sure aint fair.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . why don't we just go ride our bikes and wait a few weeks and we will know who is saying he did it and what they have to say.

BBD

[54ny77]

Yeah, what he said!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eisa5AZ20W0

. . . why don't we just go ride our bikes and wait a few weeks and we will know who is saying he did it and what they have to say.

BBD

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

"principles of convenience"

POTD.

[William]

When Armstrong made his comeback in 2009, I was the closest journalist to the phenomenon. His longtime team director and confidante, Johan Bruyneel, had leaked to me that the comeback was coming. I was riding with one of his most trusted coaches, Chris Carmichael, when the world found out about it. I was there when Armstrong broke his collarbone in Spain, and in the team car during his rehab races at the Tour of the Gila and Giro d'Italia. I spent time alone in the team bus—and, yes, I did poke through the refrigerator and cabinets. At the Tour de France, I was sitting in the team car before the start of a stage when Armstrong's personal assistant, Mark Higgins, saw me, walked over and said to Bruyneel, in the driver's seat, "A journalist in the car?"



"He's one of us," Bruyneel said.



I suppose I was, though only ever on the outermost ring of the inner circle, close enough to see how much there was I couldn't see. Yet, as Armstrong rode himself onto the podium, I became convinced that however much I might not know, the comeback was clean. The riders regarded him with an awe that could have nothing to do with chemical mastery, and eventually I did, too. I'd gone back to my old faith.



Betsy Andreu, one of Armstrong's most dogged critics, tells me that I practiced willful ignorance all these years. I don't disagree with the substance of her judgment, but I choose to call it hope instead.


http://www.bicycling.com/news/pro-cycling/lance-armstrongs-endgame?page=0,0

Lance Armstrong's Endgame
It's time to stop arguing about whether Lance doped and start figuring out what it means.





William

[JohnHemlock]

He should be knocked down simply for being the arrogant condescending controlling selfish dick that he is.

If that were the case, half the road cyclists I have ever met would be lying in the gravel next to him.

Lance reminds me of Colonel Nathan Jessup. Hopefully, Lance can give a similar speech in front of USADA.

"Son, we live in a world that has roads, and those roads have to be ridden by men with bicycles. Who's gonna do it? You? Tom Danielson? That d-bag Vaughters? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for the Tour, and you curse US Postal. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that my 7 Tour wins, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives.

You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that bicycle -- you need me on that bicycle.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and posts on a forum that my winning essentially provided, and then questions the manner in which I provided it.

"I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a Trek and start pedaling. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think you're entitled to!"

[David Kirk]

. .

dave

[Earl Gray]

What I don't get is that so many of the LA haters are also Contador fans. Mr. Fingerbang is a convicted doper that still denies it.

[witcombusa]

If that were the case, half the road cyclists I have ever met would be lying in the gravel next to him.

Lance reminds me of Colonel Nathan Jessup. Hopefully, Lance can give a similar speech in front of USADA.

"Son, we live in a world that has roads, and those roads have to be ridden by men with bicycles. Who's gonna do it? You? Tom Danielson? That d-bag Vaughters? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for the Tour, and you curse US Postal. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that my 7 Tour wins, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives.

You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that bicycle -- you need me on that bicycle.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and posts on a forum that my winning essentially provided, and then questions the manner in which I provided it.

"I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a Trek and start pedaling. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think you're entitled to!"


Step away from the TV.....

[Tony T]

Or maybe him and his handlers realized the extent to which the outward appearance of benevolence and wholesomeness could be used as a shield in the present and future for nefarious practices.

So that's why he established the LAF? I doubt even you believe that!

.

[Tony T]

USADA, according to their web site, is an 'independent, non-governmental agency' but does not say what the source of their funds is.

Based on the fact that they are unable to keep the sport clean, and pursue 10+ year-old cases (and only because they were handed the info obtained by Norvinsky's 'deals'), I would guess that the USADA doesn't have two nickels to rub together.

.

[Tony T]

. . . why don't we just go ride our bikes ...

Because it's too damn hot! ;)

[JohnHemlock]

Based on the fact that they are unable to keep the sport clean, and pursue 10+ year-old cases (and only because they were handed the info obtained by Norvinsky's 'deals'), I would guess that the USADA doesn't have two nickels to rub together.
.

I'm glad I'm not married to USADA. My wife already suspends me from her sugar walls for THC and "3 Whereabouts Failures" on a weekly basis!

http://www.usada.org/sanctions

I do like the guy who got suspended from table tennis for cannabis. I mean, who plays ping pong when they AREN'T drunk or high?

[slowgoing]

Legally, that cat is like a young Cassius Clay, nobody can lay a solid punch on him.

Not such a good example to make your point if, as some people believe, the former Mr. Clay's Parkinsons is pugilistic dementia.

[cfox]

What I don't get is that so many of the LA haters are also Contador fans. Mr. Fingerbang is a convicted doper that still denies it.

I'm a Contador fan. I like him much more than I ever liked Lance. He is a more exciting racer who is capable of winning the effing TDF with a DS and a 'teammate' angling the team to work against him. They are both dopers (if you don't think LA doped, you are a fool), but I really don't care. It has nothing to do with my opinion of either of them.

[oldguy00]

Interesting opinions on the investigation. If what is stated is true, sounds like the whole thing is a bad joke:

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/sports/other-sports/usada-s-travis-tygart-plays-prosecutor-jury-and-judge-lance-armstrong-case#

[slowgoing]

Interesting opinions on the investigation. If what is stated is true, sounds like the whole thing is a bad joke:

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/sports/other-sports/usada-s-travis-tygart-plays-prosecutor-jury-and-judge-lance-armstrong-case#

You only have to read the third paragraph to understand the leanings of the author.

"A similar investigation led by the United States Department of Justice concluded in February, 2012. After almost two years of investigation, and millions of US tax dollars spent researching Armstrong’s past, the USDOJ decided there wasn’t enough evidence to continue the investigation."

A "similar" investigation? Not at all. Different charges, as has been rehashed on here many times. Doping wasn't one of them.

The USDOJ decided "there wasn't enough evidence to continue the investigation?" The USDOJ never said that. The investigation was ended, and some of the investigating attorneys disagreed. That's all we know. Anything else is the author's wishful thinking.

Sloppy.

[Tony T]

The USDOJ decided "there wasn't enough evidence to continue the investigation?" The USDOJ never said that. The investigation was ended, and some of the investigating attorneys disagreed. That's all we know. Anything else is the author's wishful thinking.

Sloppy.

....and the USDOJ isn't even required to say that the investigation ended. They could have just dropped the case said nothing.

Anyway, just as everyone "knows" that LA doped, everyone know that the DOJ dropped the case for lack of evidence (and what other reason could there be?, other than wild conspiracy theories )

[PQJ]

....and the USDOJ isn't even required to say that the investigation ended. They could have just dropped the case said nothing.

Anyway, just as everyone "knows" that LA doped, everyone know that the DOJ dropped the case for lack of evidence (and what other reason could there be?, other than wild conspiracy theories )

I could think of a number of reason$, it being a federal criminal investigation just one of them.

The tour will be fun. I'm also looking forward to the vuelta and Alberto's return. Long race el pistolero.

[jbrainin]

....and the USDOJ isn't even required to say that the investigation ended. They could have just dropped the case said nothing.

Anyway, just as everyone "knows" that LA doped, everyone know that the DOJ dropped the case for lack of evidence (and what other reason could there be?, other than wild conspiracy theories )

Wanna good conspiracy theory?
Try this one: the USDOJ investigation into Armstrong was conducted not for the purpose of prosecuting him but for the purpose of protecting him. By thoroughly investigating the matter and collecting all possible evidence, the USDOJ can then seal the evidence and never share it with USADA, WADA or anyone.

I consider the above to be merely a mild conspiracy theory.

[Elefantino]

Wanna good conspiracy theory?
Try this one: the USDOJ investigation into Armstrong was conducted not for the purpose of prosecuting him but for the purpose of protecting him. By thoroughly investigating the matter and collecting all possible evidence, the USDOJ can then seal the evidence and never share it with USADA, WADA or anyone.

I consider the above to be merely a mild conspiracy theory.
There's this birth certificate, see? Famous guy's birth certificate. Except it's not real. Lance knows this. The famous guy knows Lance knows this. And Lance knows the famous guy knows Lance knows this.

Lack of evidence, schmevidence. This is conspiracy of the highest order.

[rounder]

Again, as I said... there are far too many people who are ignorant to the WADA code (ie... they don't read it (http://www.wada-ama.org/en/Resources/Anti-Doping-Glossary/)) AND there are far too many people who easily buy into Lance's spin doctoring. "This is unconsititutional", "This is a witchhunt", "This is a waste of tax payer money".... blah blah blah. :rolleyes: Those are the WADA rules. Armstrong agreed to them having a UCI license.

Do you understand "Non-analytical positive"? It sounds like you don't.

You say: "Show me the evidence or STFU".

They don't have to, even though they have shown people who remain in denial and ignorant of the rules. It's a "NON-ANALYTIC positive: an anti-doping rule violation other than the presence of a prohibited substance or its metabolites or markers in an athlete’s bodily specimen."

I'll make this simple for everyone. Pozzatto is facing a ban right now for visiting Michele Ferrari. This is a "Non-analitytic Positive" being enforced by CONI by their choice. Ferrari was banned by Italian law in criminal courts from working with cyclists. He effectively has a restraining order from being around or consulting cyclists. Clear?

Therefore, If you work with Ferrari, you are guilty of a "Non-analytic positive" for doping. It's against the rules.

I don't know how this is so difficult. :confused: You don't visit Michele Ferrari to buy flowers. You do it to dope, and he is legally forbidden to work with the likes of Armstrong. Doing so is cheating. Clear? Crystal. :no:

As well. Teammate testimony can be used to establish a "NON-ANALYTIC positive." in other words, possessing drugs is cheating. Distributing drugs is cheating. Storing drugs is cheating. They have 10 cyclists testifying that Armstrong did all of this, in addition to taking PED's but never returned a positive outside of his positive for corticosteroids. That is cheating. Guilty of "Non-analytic postive."

Clear? Crystal. :no:

Those are the rules.... have been for ages.

I do not know if it is the same thing. But there are many times when i make changes in software or bought new software, or sign up for wifi access at a hotel, etc. that i have read the agreement and agree to all of the terms of the agreement. I always check ok and move forward. Who's got the time.

I know that if i do not click "Agree" then i will not be able to get what I want and will have to go without.

But, I really believe that if something goes wrong, for whatever reason, that i will have rights and protections of the U.S. judicial system...regardless of the two page legal agreement that i have signed off to. I bet something similar applies here (not a lawyer).

[christian]

I do not know if it is the same thing. But there are many times when i make changes in software or bought new software, or sign up for wifi access at a hotel, etc. that i have read the agreement and agree to all of the terms of the agreement. I always check ok and move forward. Who's got the time.

I know that if i do not click "Agree" then i will not be able to get what I want and will have to go without.

But, I really believe that if something goes wrong, for whatever reason, that i will have rights and protections of the U.S. judicial system...regardless of the two page legal agreement that i have signed off to. I bet something similar applies here (not a lawyer).I think you're intending to sue Strava over in that other thread. :help:

[Earl Gray]

Wanna good conspiracy theory?
Try this one: the USDOJ investigation into Armstrong was conducted not for the purpose of prosecuting him but for the purpose of protecting him. By thoroughly investigating the matter and collecting all possible evidence, the USDOJ can then seal the evidence and never share it with USADA, WADA or anyone.

I consider the above to be merely a mild conspiracy theory.

All he would need is friends in high places!

There is almost no other way this story could end that would make me more happy.

[1happygirl]

I know life isn't fair, as BBD says but I want it to be. I'm happy with my delusion as I was sheltered as a kid, so Wiki says: Clinger accepted responsibility for using clenbuterol for performance-enhancing purposes, USADA said. The second violation prompted USADA to issue the lifetime competition ban.[3]
so I'll look for Contador's lifetime ban coming up with his next steak meal when he returns to competition.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . the rider has to renew each year or two. The agreement has to be ticked off every year or two.

Now do you really think somebody like Lance would NOT have his lawyer look at the agreement? Or that the agreement would not contain pretty clear language that says you have to play by our rules and if we find you're using drugs you're outta here and we're going to strip you of previous results and we're not going to let you come back?

And associated with that, I can't think of a job where my employer would NOT kick me outta there if they found out I was using drugs. The rider might have a contract with their team, but they're certainly not making any kind of contract with the USADA or WADA or UCI. They're asking permission to participate subject to the rules of the organization.

Their organization, their playing field, their rules. Period. Agree to them and follow them or you can't play.

Now think about it . . . accusers . . .Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis. Both were on Postal with Lance and Johan.

The four who asked to be excused from the Olympics . . . Leipheimer, Hincapie, Vande Velde, and Zarbriskie. All were on Postal or Discovery--again with Lance and Johann.

Lance has a history of intimidating people. USADA refuses to tell his lawyer who the testifying riders are. I bet with good reason--see above.

I think there will be a hearing, and it will be very interesting, and Lance and Johan are in BIG--and deserved--trouble.

BBD

I do not know if it is the same thing. But there are many times when i make changes in software or bought new software, or sign up for wifi access at a hotel, etc. that i have read the agreement and agree to all of the terms of the agreement. I always check ok and move forward. Who's got the time.

I know that if i do not click "Agree" then i will not be able to get what I want and will have to go without.

But, I really believe that if something goes wrong, for whatever reason, that i will have rights and protections of the U.S. judicial system...regardless of the two page legal agreement that i have signed off to. I bet something similar applies here (not a lawyer).

[rounder]

. . . the rider has to renew each year or two. The agreement has to be ticked off every year or two.

Now do you really think somebody like Lance would NOT have his lawyer look at the agreement? Or that the agreement would not contain pretty clear language that says you have to play by our rules and if we find you're using drugs you're outta here and we're going to strip you of previous results and we're not going to let you come back?

And associated with that, I can't think of a job where my employer would NOT kick me outta there if they found out I was using drugs. The rider might have a contract with their team, but they're certainly not making any kind of contract with the USADA or WADA or UCI. They're asking permission to participate subject to the rules of the organization.

Their organization, their playing field, their rules. Period. Agree to them and follow them or you can't play.

Now think about it . . . accusers . . .Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis. Both were on Postal with Lance and Johan.

The four who asked to be excused from the Olympics . . . Leipheimer, Hincapie, Vande Velde, and Zarbriskie. All were on Postal or Discovery--again with Lance and Johann.

Lance has a history of intimidating people. USADA refuses to tell his lawyer who the testifying riders are. I bet with good reason--see above.

I think there will be a hearing, and it will be very interesting, and Lance and Johan are in BIG--and deserved--trouble.

BBD

BBD,

I agree with everything you said. I am just saying that Lance has a lot of resources and it may not turn out to be a clear cut decision.

[Elefantino]

We'll find out a lot today, which is D-Day for responding to USADA.

Then the speculation ends.

Or maybe it just begins all over again. I wish there was some way to monetize it.

[Earl Gray]

We'll find out a lot today, which is D-Day for responding to USADA.

Then the speculation ends.

Or maybe it just begins all over again. I wish there was some way to monetize it.

You can stand outside the office and pedal you handlebra!

[JohnHemlock]

I wish there was some way to monetize it.

haha, that's awesome. Spoken like a true Amurikan!!

I am guessing Lance doesn't even respond, dismisses it as nonsense and files suit, continues to make his case over media and Twitter, etc.

[BumbleBeeDave]

haha, that's awesome. Spoken like a true Amurikan!!

I am guessing Lance doesn't even respond, dismisses it as nonsense and files suit, continues to make his case over media and Twitter, etc.

. . . it's going to be very interesting.

BBD

[christian]

I am guessing Lance doesn't even respond, dismisses it as nonsense and files suit, continues to make his case over media and Twitter, etc.
I agree, but the interesting tweak is that Bruyneel either has to respond and request a hearing, or resign from RSNT today.

If he doesn't, RSNT won't be riding bikes in France in July, to be sure. (Well, I suppose they could ask Hank and Max if they can tag along, but they won't be racing for a job...)

And if Bruyneel has his hearing, all the team mate testimony comes out regardless, I think, which is probably what Lance hopes to avoid if he doesn't ask for a hearing.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . in a civil or criminal court of law, his options to prevent a hearing or suppress evidence appear to be very limited, even though he has huge bucks and lots of lawyers.

While I am certainly not a lawyer, it seem he could have his legals ask for an injunction to delay a hearing while they challenge the entire USADA disciplinary process, and they might get it.

But it would be a delaying tactic at best. I'm betting the process USADA has set up for discipline is already legally vetted and tested and LA's lawyers would advise him as such. And, as you say, to fully suppress anything coming out, it looks like each person charged might have to do the same thing.

Again, I think Lance is in big trouble. If the people I named earlier--Hamilton, Landis, Leipheimer, Zabriskie, Vande Velde, and Hincapie--all former Postal teammates--are testifying, then the other four are sure to also be similarly connected, though we don't know their identities yet.

If they all testify that they personally witnessed, participated, and knew Lance was orchestrating a program, then others may well be emboldended to all come out and the more witnesses come out, the less believable challenge Lance has to make that he's the victim of some vendetta or conspiracy.

He's in big trouble.

BBD

[weiwentg]

Again, I think Lance is in big trouble. If the people I named earlier--Hamilton, Landis, Leipheimer, Zabriskie, Vande Velde, and Hincapie--all former Postal teammates--are testifying, then the other four are sure to also be similarly connected, though we don't know their identities yet.

BBD

That does assume that VdV, Leipheimer and Hincapie actually testify. Hamilton and Landis are tainted, and their stories need corroboration. We know that Hincapie was called before the grand jury, and that he was evasive on what he actually testified - and we don't know for sure that he'll testify in front of USADA. Furthermore, what if what he saw (or what he says he saw) doesn't conclusively prove anything?

[Viper]

History. Future. Scope. Perspective.
2005 Tailwind Sports sues their own client, denying him $5M bonus for fraud, that Lance's yellow jersey was tainted with drugs.
Frankie Andreau, his hot wife testified.
Lance got his $5M and literally owned Tailwind.

We've read it all:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=11733

We've heard it all, a really good read btw:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/analysis-armstrongs-tour-blood-levels-debated

Lance isn't in any *different* trouble today, 2012, than 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2009, 2010 and 2011. The trouble isn't smaller, larger, bigger, better or worse. More people are speaking now, ex-teammates, more verbiage. The same elements, losses for Armstrong remain: his reputation, victories, career, financial cost to lawyerize and legacy in the sport.

2012 USADA Offensive = SSDY (same sh*t different year).

We'll see how this latest inquiry unfolds. Reading this article from September 2009, one could assume Lance did, maybe he didn't and without proof, evidence, it remains SSDY:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/analysis-armstrongs-tour-blood-levels-debated

:cool:

[PQJ]

History. Future. Scope. Perspective.
2005 Tailwind Sports sues their own client, denying him $5M bonus for fraud, that Lance's yellow jersey was tainted with drugs.
Frankie Andreau, his hot wife testified.
Lance got his $5M and literally owned Tailwind.

We've read it all:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=11733

We've heard it all, a really good read btw:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/analysis-armstrongs-tour-blood-levels-debated

Lance isn't in any *different* trouble today, 2012, than 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2009, 2010 and 2011. The trouble isn't smaller, larger, bigger, better or worse. More people are speaking now, ex-teammates, more verbiage. The same elements, losses for Armstrong remain: his reputation, victories, career, financial cost to lawyerize and legacy in the sport.

2012 USADA Offensive = SSDY (same sh*t different year).

We'll see how this latest inquiry unfolds. Reading this article from September 2009, one could assume Lance did, maybe he didn't and without proof, evidence, it remains SSDY:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/analysis-armstrongs-tour-blood-levels-debated

:cool:

Or not. Are you aware you have just proven that Lance is, in fact, a liar. If Lance wanted to minimize his and our losses, he could come clean about all of it.

[JohnHemlock]

I fail to see what sort of big big big big big trouble this could be for Lance. If they strip his wins, who cares? They are engraved in public memory forever, not on some USADA list. Does anyone really think USC didn't win those championships? Did Ohio State not win the Sugar Bowl? Asterisks don't mean much to the public collective memory.

He can't go to Federal ass-rape prison, or even county jail. Maybe they will ask him to repay prize winnings. He won't, they will sue him, he will tie it up in court forever. The dude knows how to use lawyers the way God intended for them to be used.

So Georgie and Levi say they saw him eating baby hearts and injecting himself with platelets from Rwandan child soldiers. Maybe even Johan realizes he has his tail in a crack and says he and Lance used to stay up all night mainlining EPO and Lysol. He might shift a few less yellow bracelets and Livestrong fundraisers suffer. But I just don't see what his peril is.

Oooohhh, I can't go to Kona Ironman? Man. that stinks. Guess I will go to St Barts with the family and stay at Brad Pitt's house. Ouch, you got me Travis!

[merlincustom1]

Are there any attorneys here who know whether USADA has the power to compel Hincapie's live testimony and/or whether his grand jury testimony can simply be read into the USADA record?

[CunegoFan]

Are there any attorneys here who know whether USADA has the power to compel Hincapie's live testimony and/or whether his grand jury testimony can simply be read into the USADA record?

The grand jury testimony is sealed. Most of the riders who talked did so at sit downs with investigators. The USADA was a particpant in those interviews. They will have transcripts and maybe video.

A rider like Hincapie is facing two choices. Cooperate and he gets a light sanction, perhaps even no sanction at all. Don't cooperate and he gets charged with doping by the USADA. Either way the public finds out he was doping, so does he want to be the fall guy for Lance? If Armstrong goes down then Hincapie will be a footnote in the story while the press concentrates on the John Edwards of cycling. Riders will testify that they were given ultimatums to dope or not start races. It would be easy for Hincapie to play the part of the good guy caught up in bad team.

Armstrong might walk if enough riders are willing to fall on their swords, but it is doubtful that Vaughters and his boys will back out. Vaughters has been talking with the USADA since 2004.

BTW, word is that Hincapie sent nasty emails to people who were or were thinking of cooperating with the feds. There may be some stuff that Hincapie does not want exposed.

[Rada]

If the grand jury testimony is sealed and the USADA is not a government agency how can they use this as evidence without breaking the law themselves?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . and his ego would be to be rendered insignificant.

One quote I read from Floyd really has stuck with me. He said that Lance was never in it to win. He was just in it to keep anybody else from winning. That seemed to explain his overall attitude to me perfectly.

It doesn't matter if they take his money. But if they take his reputation . . .

BBD

[christian]

If the grand jury testimony is sealed and the USADA is not a government agency how can they use this as evidence without breaking the law themselves?

The USADA apparently participated in some of the interviews prior to the grand jury hearing and has been conducting its own investigation concurrently. They are not using testimony from the grand jury proceedings.

[Vientomas]

In addition, the procedure at the USADA hearing will require that an oath be taken:

"R-22. Oaths

Before proceeding with the first hearing, each arbitrator may take an oath of office and, if required by law, shall do so. The arbitrator may require witnesses to testify under oath administered by any duly qualified person and, if it is required by law or requested by any party, shall do so."

The testimony of the witnesses at the USADA hearing can be provided to the Feds who were involved in the Grand Jury proceedings. If the testimony at the USADA hearing is different than what was testified to at the Grand Jury, then someone will have some explaining to do.

[witcombusa]

In addition, the procedure at the USADA hearing will require that an oath be taken:

"R-22. Oaths

Before proceeding with the first hearing, each arbitrator may take an oath of office and, if required by law, shall do so. The arbitrator may require witnesses to testify under oath administered by any duly qualified person and, if it is required by law or requested by any party, shall do so."

The testimony of the witnesses at the USADA hearing can be provided to the Feds who were involved in the Grand Jury proceedings. If the testimony at the USADA hearing is different than what was testified to at the Grand Jury, then someone will have some explaining to do.


Yeah, that oath will sure scare him into telling the truth....;)

[witcombusa]

The grand jury testimony is sealed. Most of the riders who talked did so at sit downs with investigators. The USADA was a particpant in those interviews. They will have transcripts and maybe video.

A rider like Hincapie is facing two choices. Cooperate and he gets a light sanction, perhaps even no sanction at all. Don't cooperate and he gets charged with doping by the USADA. Either way the public finds out he was doping, so does he want to be the fall guy for Lance? If Armstrong goes down then Hincapie will be a footnote in the story while the press concentrates on the John Edwards of cycling. Riders will testify that they were given ultimatums to dope or not start races. It would be easy for Hincapie to play the part of the good guy caught up in bad team.

Armstrong might walk if enough riders are willing to fall on their swords, but it is doubtful that Vaughters and his boys will back out. Vaughters has been talking with the USADA since 2004.

BTW, word is that Hincapie sent nasty emails to people who were or were thinking of cooperating with the feds. There may be some stuff that Hincapie does not want exposed.

"the public finds out he was doping"?

They all are doping.....what's to find out?

[Vientomas]

Yeah, that oath will sure scare him into telling the truth....;)

To whom are you referring? "Him" (Lance) did not testify before the GJ. The point is other people did, and if their testimony is inconsistent between the GJ and the USADA hearing, they could be charged with perjury by the Feds. That would scare me into telling the truth.

[Viper]

. . . and his ego would be to be rendered insignificant.

One quote I read from Floyd really has stuck with me. He said that Lance was never in it to win. He was just in it to keep anybody else from winning. That seemed to explain his overall attitude to me perfectly.

It doesn't matter if they take his money. But if they take his reputation . . .

BBD

Floyd Landis is a jealous, bitter liar whose opinion of Lance Armstrong, quite honestly, is from a perspective which is insignificant. Lance did it so nobody else would win? What does this even mean? Duh Floyd, all top-tier, alpha athletes have the Eye of the Tiger...Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Jack Nicklaus, US Women's Soccer etc...they ALL HATE TO LOSE and never want ANYONE else to win!

Floyd Landis rides the short bus in terms of mental capacity of people, places and things. I read his book and it let us all realize that he sees the world through the eyes of a child.

Okay. Lance won seven Tours Day France.
USADA says they have dirt.
It's the same dirt from last year and the year before and five before that.
Do they have one Lance Armstrong, accused of guilt, in cheating via blood doping, through specific physical evidence? If so, I am from the state of reality known as the Show Me State.

BBD, you hate Lance.
And its no different than those who hate guns.
It's not merely the guns they hate, it's the gun owners, too.*
Hatred of Lance, personally, occludes one, anyone, from forming a proper, educated, wise, fair, thinking opinion.
I would HATE to be in jail or in court and hear from my lawyer, "The judge hates clean-cut dudes who appear conservative, so you're sentence is gonna be long and hard."
Judge Lance by his blood.
Too many people *hate him* and like Darth Vader, they allow their hate to consume all topics and issues related to Armstrong.

* = quoting Ainsley Hayes from one of my all-time favorite shows, 'The West Wing'.

Great show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUwm6WJRPIQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1ZkZZ6SA68

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXPLirJRGDQ

:beer:

[crownjewelwl]

I read his book and it let us all realize that he sees the world through the eyes of a child.


it was really loren mooney which is probably why she isn't editor at bicycling magazine anymore!

[CunegoFan]

"the public finds out he was doping"?

They all are doping.....what's to find out?

I know it is hard to believe, but there are actually people who believe that li'l' ol' Lancey Poo is innocent. It's all a conspiracy and vendetta by the haters, who are jealous of Armstrong's honest hard work and are probably French or, at the very least, un-American. Those same people tend to believe that Hincapie, the steadfast hound dog who sheperded Armstrong to all those wins, is also innocent. Only bad guys like Landis and Hamilton doped. Everyone else passed hundreds of tests, which common wisdom suggests are infallible.

Armstrong has largely abandoned the cycling community because everyone with more than half a clue knows he doped. He has moved on to more gullible segments of the population...like triathletes. Even the triathletes who suspect that Armstrong is a doper don't want to acknowledge reality because their sport is finally getting media coverage that consists of something other than a sad case gimp staggering across the line of an Ironman in a hyponatremic daze that requires an immediate IV in the medical tent.

There are a lot of people for whom confirmation that Armstrong and the other riders who were lucky enough to not test positive are actually dopers will be like getting smacked upside the head with a two week old dead fish.

[JohnHemlock]

. . . and his ego would be to be rendered insignificant.

One quote I read from Floyd really has stuck with me. He said that Lance was never in it to win. He was just in it to keep anybody else from winning. That seemed to explain his overall attitude to me perfectly.

It doesn't matter if they take his money. But if they take his reputation . . .

BBD

Now you're grasping. After all this - a decade of the French sifting through his trash, and soigneurs finding blood vials in his fridge, and Prudhomme hoping he could find anything at all to get him out of the TdF, Bill Strickland sniffing his chamois for years to sell magazines only to call him a doper, and David Walsh writing books, and Paul Kimmage writing articles, and Frankie and Betsy, and Novitsky looking into him, and Floyd and Tyler testifying, and about 26 other things I can't remember off the top of my head. . . the desired outcome is to neutralize his ego? Really? All that just to make Big Tex feel like Lil Tex?

A year ago all I heard was how Lance was going to be indicted for conspiracy and be a felon and go to prison with Bernie Madoff, etc etc. Now the goal is just to take his reputation? That sounds like the Andy Schleck of punishments - meh.

[CunegoFan]

BBD, you hate Lance.
And its no different than those who hate guns.
It's not merely the guns they hate, it's the gun owners, too.*


LOL. There's a new one. Those bitter jealous Lance haters are just like those liberal gun grabbers. They hate the Constitution, true Americans, and America too.

[54ny77]

Except he's never said anything publicly or admitted to doing it himself, has he? Smarmy guy that he is... Reminds me of a few folks I know who were coked up party animals living the high life in the 80's, and once the decade ran its course and the ugly reality set in, they suddenly found Jesus and now preach to everyone about living the good wholesome life. Oh and make that pledge to keep the cameras rolling, praise Jesus....

Some guy named Matt climbed a hors category hill in a 34x28 and uttered a few words that went something like this: "Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven."

Vaughters has been talking with the USADA since 2004.

[zmudshark]

My buddy, BigJonny, posted a link to this on his Twitter feed, it explains a lot to an idiot like myself:

http://150wattsofawesome.blogspot.ca/
Viper, my friend, you should take a few minutes to read it.

[Viper]

LOL. There's a new one. Those bitter jealous Lance haters are just like those liberal gun grabbers. The hate the Constitution, true Americans, and America too.

Hate is blinding.
Love is too.
Liebe macht blind.

Only love, only love can leave such a mark
Only love, only love can heal such a scar

* = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZafL4H0Ooa8

How the **** I wasn't at the private concert is still beyond me.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . and bullies. In 13 years of hearing about Lance, the opinion I've formed is that he is both. I'm entitled to that opinion--and you're entitled to disagree with it.

But it would be really nice to hear you disagree without invoking the name of some Star Wars or other science fiction character or posting a youtube link. It's getting old.

BBD

Floyd Landis is a jealous, bitter liar whose opinion of Lance Armstrong, quite honestly, is from a perspective which is insignificant. Lance did it so nobody else would win? What does this even mean? Duh Floyd, all top-tier, alpha athletes have the Eye of the Tiger...Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Jack Nicklaus, US Women's Soccer etc...they ALL HATE TO LOSE and never want ANYONE else to win!

Floyd Landis rides the short bus in terms of mental capacity of people, places and things. I read his book and it let us all realize that he sees the world through the eyes of a child.

Okay. Lance won seven Tours Day France.
USADA says they have dirt.
It's the same dirt from last year and the year before and five before that.
Do they have one Lance Armstrong, accused of guilt, in cheating via blood doping, through specific physical evidence? If so, I am from the state of reality known as the Show Me State.

BBD, you hate Lance.
And its no different than those who hate guns.
It's not merely the guns they hate, it's the gun owners, too.*
Hatred of Lance, personally, occludes one, anyone, from forming a proper, educated, wise, fair, thinking opinion.
I would HATE to be in jail or in court and hear from my lawyer, "The judge hates clean-cut dudes who appear conservative, so you're sentence is gonna be long and hard."
Judge Lance by his blood.
Too many people *hate him* and like Darth Vader, they allow their hate to consume all topics and issues related to Armstrong.

* = quoting Ainsley Hayes from one of my all-time favorite shows, 'The West Wing'.

Great show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUwm6WJRPIQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1ZkZZ6SA68

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXPLirJRGDQ

:beer:

[witcombusa]

Hate is blinding.
Love is too.
Liebe macht blind.

Only love, only love can leave such a mark
Only love, only love can heal such a scar

* = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZafL4H0Ooa8

How the **** I wasn't at the private concert is still beyond me.

Viper, I don't know what the hell it is you're saying most of the time....

It's not hate. It's reality of who the man is. Nothing blinding about it at all.

Have you been paying attention over the last 10-15 years?!

[Viper]

. . . and bullies. In 13 years of hearing about Lance, the opinion I've formed is that he is both. I'm entitled to that opinion--and you're entitled to disagree with it.

But it would be really nice to hear you disagree without invoking the name of some Star Wars or other science fiction character or posting a youtube link. It's getting old.

BBD

LOL David. You know, especially as a Moderator, you've lost your cool and your place in the debate when you make a personal insult or attack.

Pro Tip: Focus your mind on Lance, the debate therein, or don't post.

Dave, special bonus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Typ8s-imCoc

:beer:

[witcombusa]

LOL David. You know, especially as a Moderator, you've lost your cool and your place in the debate when you make a personal insult or attack.

Pro Tip: Focus your mind on Lance, the debate therein, or don't post.

Dave, special bonus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Typ8s-imCoc

:beer:

There is no personal insult or attack in his post. (although it might just have been appropriate off line)

[CunegoFan]

Except he's never said anything publicly or admitted to doing it himself, has he? Smarmy guy that he is...

Fair knock against Vaughters. He has reaped the benefits of promoting himself and his team as anti-dope but has never come clean about his own past and the role of Team USPS. Telling Landis not to name names does not help JV's credibility.

If JV would have had the cojones to publicly back up Hamilton and Landis then maybe we could have seen the lid ripped off the can of worms by the feds.

I want to know how the UCI was involved. Armstrong was telling people that he owned Verbruggen because Verbruggen buried the steroid tests that would have caught Armstrong's cancer early.

[retrofit]

Belgian stands aside after fourteen years of managing a team at the race (http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12190/USADA-investigation-No-Tour-de-France-for-Bruyneel.aspx)

“I dearly wish to be there but my attendance in light of the recent USADA allegations against me would be an unwelcome distraction to my team, and to all those participating in and supporting the Tour.”

[Viper]

There is no personal insult or attack in his post. (although it might just have been appropriate off line)

His hatred of Lance spews out to those who a). don't hate Lance and b). defend Lance effectively. He is not the only one. Yet, there's an equal handful of men/women in this thread who defend Lance or at least give him benefit of doubt and they're (hopefully) able to do so without isulting forum members. Dave is better than that and he knows it. Thank God those who blindly hate Lance and insult others weren't living in Maycomb County:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3aqvn9gFYk&feature=relmfu

Dave wouldn't speak to me in that tone as such off-line, nor in person. He'd be civilized and debate Lance around a campfire. If not, I'd whip out my Lance Doll and make it kiss and tongue Dave and then he'd have cooties. :)

Lance Debates on Cycling Forums are deadends ala = http://www.un.org/News/dh/photos/large/2011/September/15-09-2011internet.jpg

:beer:

[BumbleBeeDave]

Viper, I don't know what the hell it is you're saying most of the time....

It's not hate. It's reality of who the man is. Nothing blinding about it at all.

Have you been paying attention over the last 10-15 years?!

There's a difference between hate and disapproval.

Viper, I just can't figure out what the heck you're saying most of the time either, and that's not a personal attack, either. I just don't understand what you're saying. Maybe witcomb and I could start a club . . . :rolleyes:

Additionally, being a mod does not prohibit me from having an opinion or exressing it. I will continue to express it as logically and sensibly and articulately as I can.

BBD

[bozman]

Some guy named Matt climbed a hors category hill in a 34x28 and uttered a few words that went something like this: "Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven."

I love it. The bible with a cycling theme. Well done, sir!

[Viper]

I will continue to express it as logically and sensibly and articulately as I can.

BBD

You're getting closer:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/jzISFN-dHnE/0.jpg

:beer:

[54ny77]

well it looks like bruyneel will have to resign himself to sitting on sidelines, perhaps joining the paceline forum and keeping watch for "spoiler" threads so as to be up to date....

[ultraman6970]

He is not going to the tour...

[Elefantino]

From the news wires:

Lance Armstrong has filed a scathing response to the latest doping allegations against him, accusing the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency of violating its own rules and possibly breaking federal law during its investigation.
Friday was the deadline for the seven-time Tour de France winner to respond to USADA's June 12 warning of pending charges.
The agency says Armstrong used performance-enhancing drugs and other improper methods to win cycling's premiere event from 1999-2005. Armstrong denies doping, noting that he never failed a drug test. He could be stripped of his titles if found guilty.
Armstrong's lawyers called the USADA claims "long on stale allegations disproved long ago and short on evidence." They believe USADA coerced false testimony from some of his former teammates.
The case now goes to a USADA review board.

[Fixed]

Who has the best attorneys ?
Sad I know but that means a lot
Cheers

[zmudshark]

From the news wires:

Lance Armstrong has filed a scathing response to the latest doping allegations against him, accusing the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency of violating its own rules and possibly breaking federal law during its investigation.
Friday was the deadline for the seven-time Tour de France winner to respond to USADA's June 12 warning of pending charges.
The agency says Armstrong used performance-enhancing drugs and other improper methods to win cycling's premiere event from 1999-2005. Armstrong denies doping, noting that he never failed a drug test. He could be stripped of his titles if found guilty.
Armstrong's lawyers called the USADA claims "long on stale allegations disproved long ago and short on evidence." They believe USADA coerced false testimony from some of his former teammates.
The case now goes to a USADA review board.

It's called controlling the dialogue.

Seriously, read this article I linked to earlier:
http://150wattsofawesome.blogspot.ca/

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . and absolutely correct.

Their playground. Their rules. Their disciplinary procedures . . . and he agreed to them.

You are also correct that he's trying desperately to control the dialogue and the framing of this issue. He's paying big money to big time PR pros who are experts at doing this. But I believe Mr. Armstrong has finally run up against an adversary who doesn't have to play by his rules.

He's in big trouble.

BBD

It's called controlling the dialogue.

Seriously, read this article I linked to earlier:
http://150wattsofawesome.blogspot.ca/

[christian]

150wattsofanalysis! She cut to the heart of it better than an army of PR flacks ever could.

At the end of the day though, I don't care about Lance - he's just another cyclist who did what he thought he had to to win; it's the system, the soigneurs, the managers that need to be exposed.