Hot off the press

[biker.caliente]

http://msn.foxsports.com/olympics/cycling/story/united-states-anti-doping-agency-brings-charges-against-lance-armstrong-061312

[norcalbiker]

AGAIN?

I thought this thing is done and over with.

What now?

[67-59]

This is getting absurd.

Before long, INS is going to to after him, trying to prove he isn't really a US citizen.:rolleyes:

[biker72]

One more time....:confused:

[Tony T]

Someone leaked this story, it was supposed to be released June 30th

[Jaq]

So far it's been leaked all over these boards.

[MattTuck]

This is getting absurd.

Before long, INS is going to to after him, trying to prove he isn't really a US citizen.:rolleyes:

We need to see his long form birth certificate.

[Rueda Tropical]

AGAIN?

I thought this thing is done and over with.

What now?

It's not "again". Feds were never going to charge Armstrong for doping in competition as that is not a Federal crime. They were charging him with fraud, money laundering, etc., but someone high up decided it wasn't worth the cost of prosecution even though the investigating agents thought they had a solid case. After a couple of high profile expensive drawn out cases ended in a less then conclusive fashion they didn't want to chance another -understandable.

The USADA has been patiently waiting during all this to get their hands on the doping testimony the Feds got. Now they have it. When you have overwhelming proof of doping you act. No big surprise. The Italians will probably toss Dr. Ferrari in jail.

[54ny77]

http://www.bonappetit.com/images/tips_tools_ingredients/ingredients/ttar_oliveoil_v.jpg

[Steelman]

Anyone remember this incident? (Google Filippo Simeoni) Says it all about Dr. Ferrari and Lance.

"Simeoni was treated by doctor Michele Ferrari, who was also Armstrong's doctor. Simeoni testified in court that he began doping in 1993, that Dr. Ferrari had prescribed him doping products such as EPO and Human Growth Hormone in 1996 and 1997, and that Ferrari also gave him instructions on how to use these products.[3] In 2001 and 2002 Simeoni was suspended for several months for doping use. Armstrong reportedly called Simeoni a "liar" in an interview with the French newspaper Le Monde in July 2003. Simeoni lodged a charge of defamation against Armstrong and demanded €100,000. Simeoni announced that he would give any money awarded him to charity.

On the 18th stage of the 2004 edition of the Tour de France, Simeoni gapped up to a breakaway of six riders that posed no threat to Armstrong's leading position. Nevertheless, Armstrong followed Simeoni, which prompted Armstrong's rival T-Mobile Team to try to catch the breakaway. This would not only catch Armstrong but also eliminate the stage winning chances of the six riders in the original breakaway. The six riders implored Armstrong to drop back to the peloton, but Armstrong would not go unless Simeoni went with him and the two riders dropped back to the peloton"

[Bruce K]

Hopefully we can keep this one more civil than the other one.

BK

[54ny77]

http://topmet.in/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/11571__funny+animated+wallpaper-5.gif

Hopefully we can keep this one more civil than the other one.

BK

[ultraman6970]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJHCGx_GZkA



Anyone remember this incident? (Google Filippo Simeoni) Says it all about Dr. Ferrari and Lance.

"Simeoni was treated by doctor Michele Ferrari, who was also Armstrong's doctor. Simeoni testified in court that he began doping in 1993, that Dr. Ferrari had prescribed him doping products such as EPO and Human Growth Hormone in 1996 and 1997, and that Ferrari also gave him instructions on how to use these products.[3] In 2001 and 2002 Simeoni was suspended for several months for doping use. Armstrong reportedly called Simeoni a "liar" in an interview with the French newspaper Le Monde in July 2003. Simeoni lodged a charge of defamation against Armstrong and demanded €100,000. Simeoni announced that he would give any money awarded him to charity.

On the 18th stage of the 2004 edition of the Tour de France, Simeoni gapped up to a breakaway of six riders that posed no threat to Armstrong's leading position. Nevertheless, Armstrong followed Simeoni, which prompted Armstrong's rival T-Mobile Team to try to catch the breakaway. This would not only catch Armstrong but also eliminate the stage winning chances of the six riders in the original breakaway. The six riders implored Armstrong to drop back to the peloton, but Armstrong would not go unless Simeoni went with him and the two riders dropped back to the peloton"

[Earl Gray]

Anyone remember this incident? (Google Filippo Simeoni) Says it all about Dr. Ferrari and Lance.

"Simeoni was treated by doctor Michele Ferrari, who was also Armstrong's doctor. Simeoni testified in court that he began doping in 1993, that Dr. Ferrari had prescribed him doping products such as EPO and Human Growth Hormone in 1996 and 1997, and that Ferrari also gave him instructions on how to use these products.[3] In 2001 and 2002 Simeoni was suspended for several months for doping use. Armstrong reportedly called Simeoni a "liar" in an interview with the French newspaper Le Monde in July 2003. Simeoni lodged a charge of defamation against Armstrong and demanded €100,000. Simeoni announced that he would give any money awarded him to charity.

On the 18th stage of the 2004 edition of the Tour de France, Simeoni gapped up to a breakaway of six riders that posed no threat to Armstrong's leading position. Nevertheless, Armstrong followed Simeoni, which prompted Armstrong's rival T-Mobile Team to try to catch the breakaway. This would not only catch Armstrong but also eliminate the stage winning chances of the six riders in the original breakaway. The six riders implored Armstrong to drop back to the peloton, but Armstrong would not go unless Simeoni went with him and the two riders dropped back to the peloton"


I know I'm in the minority regarding this, but this was one of the moments that I realized that Lance was not just a great cyclist, he was a great competitor.

Great competitors are able and willing to impose their will on anyone that mans up to compete against them.

ATMO, Lance would have been a complete chump had he let Simeoni ride off.

[akelman]

ATMO, Lance would have been a complete chump had he let Simeoni ride off.

Why? I'm not looking for a fight; I just don't understand your reasoning.

[Fivethumbs]

Moral of the story: Nobody likes getting sued.

[Steelman]

I know I'm in the minority regarding this, but this was one of the moments that I realized that Lance was not just a great cyclist, he was a great competitor.

Great competitors are able and willing to impose their will on anyone that mans up to compete against them.

ATMO, Lance would have been a complete chump had he let Simeoni ride off.


I already knew that he was a great competitor. For me, it was the moment I realized there was no doubt he was a fraud and a cheat.

Well, there is lots of that in cycling, so he was just competing I guess. But chasing down a break containing a minor star, whatever the reason, showed a complete lack of class.

[Russity]

[QUOTE=Earl Gray;1154823]I know I'm in the minority regarding this, but this was one of the moments that I realized that Lance was not just a great cyclist, he was a great competitor.

I'm guessing you're really Lance's mum in disguise, because that statement right there makes absolutely no sense at all in relation to the Simeone incident?

If he's such a great competitor, why wasn't he chasing down very single breakaway in every single tour? Simeone was absolutely NO THREAT to GC and yet Lance decides to chase him down ALONE!! He didn't send the team up to chase him down, he went after him ALONE? There was only one reason for this and it wasn't to see if he fancied a beer after the stage.

[Earl Gray]

Why? I'm not looking for a fight; I just don't understand your reasoning.

It's about being able and willing to impose his will.

Right, wrong, justified or not, Lance clearly had an issue with Simeoni. F some unwritten rule that says you have to let someone else have a chance to win the race. Lance was the strongest in the race and if I remember correctly, he ran the breakaway down by himself. Simeoni and company knew he was coming, all they had to do was stay away.

I'm not looking for a fight either, I just don't understand why Lance should not have ran him down.


On a somewhat related note. Last night I watched a show about the 1992 Dream team. In the early rounds when USA played Croatia, MJ and Scottie Pippen decided to shut down Toni Kukoc. They didn't know Toni from Adam and had absolutely nothing personal against him. It was simply a statement because the Bulls owner was coveting Toni at the time and they want to be sure to put him in his place before he played a single minute in the NBA. In that game Toni had 4 point and 7 turnovers.

In my mind it's damn near the same thing as what Lance did.

[Tony T]

You would think that this was 1979.
With camera's in cell phones and surveillance camera's everywhere, you would think that there would be at least one photographic evidence of the charges (i.e., Floyd's claim of EPO in Lance's fridge).

Also, based on these charges, how many syringes were used over the years? Not one survived the landfill?

I find it very hard to convict, or take away someones titles based on the testimony of admitted cheats¹ who have been granted immunity for their testimony.

__________
¹ Especially those who raise millions from fans for their defense, then admit to doping (and never return the cash to the fans)

.

[Germany_chris]

I hope Lance's Lawyers embarace the USADA.

[Tony T]

I hope Lance's Lawyers embarace the USADA.

:confused: Why?

[Germany_chris]

Really?

You think it's a valid use of money to chase a retire bike racer? Seriously?

The only way the USG is going to stop is if they get slaped around bit. The money being spent doing this would be spent in better places. I really don't want to hear about precidents and fairness in sports. If that really was the case then we'd start with our own NFL. We don't start with them because not only would you have to fight the player, you'd fight the union, and the NFL its self. The we could move on to MLB that would set a precedent it would clearly and state the USADA will come after any doper no matter how well backed. Who do the go after though a retired cyclist, and bodybuilders and such where it's the USG vs an individual. The problem is the picked a scrappy rich guy with a monster ego who loves to fight.

[Tony T]

I agree with you. (I misread your typo "embarace" as embrace. not embarrass)

[Nooch]

The only way the USG is going to stop is if they get slaped around bit.

But keep in mind that the USADA is not actually a formal division of Government, but a sanctioning body of sorts... Not really the government coming after him -- they gave up/got paid off...

[Fixed]

Guilty in the court of public opinion
Cheers

[Tony T]

...Not really the government coming after him -- they gave up/got paid off...

Well, you lose all credibility when you believe that Lance "paid off" the US Gov't, or that they "gave up".

Fact is, the case did not go forward due to lack of evidence.

.

[Germany_chris]

But keep in mind that the USADA is not actually a formal division of Government, but a sanctioning body of sorts... Not really the government coming after him -- they gave up/got paid off...

Right and the USPS isn't really the govenment either..

USADA is funded by the govenment therefore is an extension of the USG.

[William]

... There was only one reason for this and it wasn't to see if he fancied a beer after the stage.

Okay!! Michelob Ultra is not really "beer". It's yellow water with a tinge of alcohol. You've lost all credibility with me now!!:p

I think they should throw the book at Lance for trying to hawk that piss water!!!:bike:




;):)
William

[Vientomas]

Fact is, the case did not go forward due to lack of evidence.

Really? From ESPN - U.S. Attorney Andri Birotte Jr. announced in a press release that his office “is closing an investigation into allegations of federal criminal conduct by members and associates of a professional bicycle racing team owned in part by Lance Armstrong.” He didn't disclose the reason for the decision.

Do you have some insider knowledge as to the reason the investigation was closed? The fact is that the official version does not state that the investigation was closed for "lack of evidence."

Perhaps I am missing some official announcement that supports your claim that the investigation was closed for lack of evidence. Please enlighten me.

[Viper]

The Simeoni Affair?

Really? With the latest news from USADA, people are re-hasing that silly peleton moment, again? What about The Cunego Affair?

http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/news/242/cunego-plots-to-counter-armstrong

And then at the 2009 Giro, oh my, rumor is Armstrong told Cunego during a climb, "I'll crush you Little Prince!"

Or how about the Armstrong Contador Staring-Contest Affair?

The Simeoni Affair pointed out nothing, did nothing and was nothing. It was an alpha-athlete, King of the peleton, who disliked Simeoni (for whatever reasons he hated him) and he chased him down, not allowing him to ride up front.

A Federal investigation failed. Months later USADA has a secret report, claiming either Lance Armstrong doped in 2009 and 2010, or was it they found evidence in 2009/2010 that he doped earlier in his career? This is the story, the news or non-news. Not some Italian rider thingy.

[Germany_chris]

Really? From ESPN - U.S. Attorney Andri Birotte Jr. announced in a press release that his office “is closing an investigation into allegations of federal criminal conduct by members and associates of a professional bicycle racing team owned in part by Lance Armstrong.” He didn't disclose the reason for the decision.

Do you have some insider knowledge as to the reason the investigation was closed? The fact is that the official version does not state that the investigation was closed for "lack of evidence."

Perhaps I am missing some official announcement that supports your claim that the investigation was closed for lack of evidence. Please enlighten me.

This is a reasonable assumption..

The hopefully former lawyer who wasted two years of his time and our money investigating wouldn't have given up if he could have gone to trial.

[laupsi]

read it any way you want, the guy is on very thin ice and doesn't have a way out other than to spew rhetoric about how "I've never tested positive..." and this is very unfair, I am being challenged for something that happend "X" amount of years ago.

well if you read the documents it states quite clearly the lying and deceit

Supporters I would get on w/it, passed it, whatever..., but the man and all he has stood for in the sport is going to change, forever! in the end LA will be stripped of his Tour wins, he will become, if he is not one already, a pariah in the sport of cycling.

like Lance's refusal to admit the truth, which doesn't mean a thing, I guess you could also argue Jerry Sandusky is innocent because he is claiming innocence too, illogical arguments over why he did this or why he did that will never cease, it's just too darn difficult to give up and admit to reality.

[Nooch]

Well, you lose all credibility when you believe that Lance "paid off" the US Gov't, or that they "gave up".

Fact is, the case did not go forward due to lack of evidence.

.

sorry, must have forgotten the winky after the gave up/paid off comment.

;) there we go.

:banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:

however, it was my understanding that USADA was not technically government. thanks for clearing that up, G_Chris

and for the record, as far as my credibility is concerned, is that I don't give a hoot. I enjoy watching the soap opera unfold, there's some entertainment aspect in it all. did he dope? probably, atmo. did he hurt anybody by doing it, or the sport, at the time? no more than however other many in the peloton did. should he have forced or persuaded others to do so? no -- if he needed it to win, that's on him, screw the peer pressure.

[laupsi]

also, logically speaking it's LA and his team that are wasting precious $$$, stop stone walling and fess up. little spent, everything lost!

[DreaminJohn]

This.

I'm not arguing for or against, but it sure would be nice if they had (as someone mentioned) some evidence OTHER than the testimony of various folks who have direct involvement and now most likely hate Lance's guts.


The Simeoni Affair?

Really? With the latest news from USADA, people are re-hasing that silly peleton moment, again? What about The Cunego Affair?

http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/news/242/cunego-plots-to-counter-armstrong

And then and the Giro, oh my, rumor is Armstrong told Cunego during a climb, "I'll crush you Little Prince!"

Or how about the Armstrong Contador Staring-Contest Affair?

The Simeoni Affair pointed out nothing, did nothing and was nothing. It was an alpha-athlete, King of the peleton, who disliked Simeoni (for whatever reasons he hated him) and he chased him down, not allowing him to ride up front.

A Federal investigation failed. Months later USADA has a secret report, claiming either Lance Armstrong doped in 2009 and 2010, or was it they found evidence in 2009/2010 that he doped earlier in his career? This is the story, the news or non-news. Not some Italian rider thingy.

[Nooch]

.

[Vientomas]

This is a reasonable assumption..

The hopefully former lawyer who wasted two years of his time and our money investigating wouldn't have given up if he could have gone to trial.

The answer is contained within your signature line.

[Ray]

Once again, I don't have any doubt that he doped and I can't stand his generally holier than thou stance about the whole thing. So there's a certain justice in him finally getting his. But OTOH, I don't seen ANY point in stripping him of his 7 titles because its not like each of those titles will fall to a second place finisher who DIDN'T dope! I don't believe for a minute that there was a top finisher in any of those races who was clean. He was the best rider in each of those races and deserves the wins. The playing field, for better or worse, was level.

So, make a spectacle of it, nail him to the wall, do whatever - he's earned it. But if you take his 7 titles away, don't give them to anyone else, because there's nobody to give them to who was riding any cleaner than he was...

-Ray

[Tony T]

Perhaps I am missing some official announcement that supports your claim that the investigation was closed for lack of evidence. Please enlighten me.

Fact is, the Grad Jury was not even required to announce that the case was not going forward. They are under no obligation to say anything (which is why the reason was not given), however, the only plausible reason why they would not go forward is if they did not have enough evidence to present their case.

[laupsi]

Once again, I don't have any doubt that he doped and I can't stand his generally holier than thou stance about the whole thing. So there's a certain justice in him finally getting his. But OTOH, I don't seen ANY point in stripping him of his 7 titles because its not like each of those titles will fall to a second place finisher who DIDN'T dope! I don't believe for a minute that there was a top finisher in any of those races who was clean. He was the best rider in each of those races and deserves the wins. The playing field, for better or worse, was level.

So, make a spectacle of it, nail him to the wall, do whatever - he's earned it. But if you take his 7 titles away, don't give them to anyone else, because there's nobody to give them to who was riding any cleaner than he was...

-Ray

can't say that everyone who has ever doped and been successful in the TDF has been relegated, no one can. but do your homework, there have been many, and I mean many riders who were caught cheating by one form or another and have been stripped, releagated, banned, etc... logically your argument doesn't hold water. it ain't about someone else getting something it's about the integrity of the sport and this race, it's marveled history.

[Vientomas]

Fact is, the Grad Jury was not even required to announce that the case was not going forward. They are under no obligation to say anything (which is why the reason was not given), however, the only plausible reason why they would not go forward is if they did not have enough evidence to present their case.

With all due respect, "plausible reason" does not equate to "fact". My point is simply that your statement of fact is actually your opinion. Neither you, nor I, know the real facts surrounding the closing of the investigation.

[Ray]

Fact is, the Grad Jury was not even required to announce that the case was not going forward. They are under no obligation to say anything (which is why the reason was not given), however, the only plausible reason why they would not go forward is if they did not have enough evidence to present their case.

Even if we assume that's why they didn't bring the case forward, there's a big big difference between trying to nail him criminally for fraud and money laundering and bringing anti-doping charges to strip him of his titles. Sounds more like a civil action to me - I don't think he'd be up for jail time for this, just dis-honor. Very different cases with probably very different legal burdens. The fact that US attorneys decided NOT to bring charges on their case doesn't mean USADA should or should not bring this anti-doping case forward.

-Ray

[FlashUNC]

Its going to be very interesting to see how this turns out. Personally, I don't mind the guy was doped to the gills, to beat other riders who were also doped to the gills.

What galls me is that he doesn't fess up to it, admit it was a mistake of the times, and we can all move on. Other atheletes in other sports have copped to their doping, the fans have forgiven them, and everyone's gotten over it. (Andy Pettitte is the main one that comes to mind.)

And I always get a kick out of this image that's been making the rounds...


http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmlyg0p0p61qbljjlo1_500.jpg

[Ray]

can't say that everyone who has ever doped and been successful in the TDF has been relegated, no one can. but do your homework, there have been many, and I mean many riders who were caught cheating by one form or another and have been stripped, releagated, banned, etc... logically your argument doesn't hold water. it ain't about someone else getting something it's about the integrity of the sport and this race, it's marveled history.

Yeah I know - I didn't agree with stripping Floyd either - what he got caught for was small time stuff compared to the other stuff he was using and probably everyone else in the top 20 in that race. If its about the integrity of the sport and "this race" and its "marveled history", well that horse left the barn a LOOOOONG time ago. Might as well strip Big Mig and Hinault and Eddie and Jaques too. And what's the point in that? It is a great sport and a great race and it does have a great history, but its not a clean history and Lance is just one part of that whole story.

-Ray

[Germany_chris]

The answer is contained within your signature line.

This is affair is the reason I picked that quote for this forum. The problem is the one I use for others.

"A man should not play the coward to his deeds. He should not repudiate them once he has performed them. Pangs of conscience are indecent."
-Friedrich Nietzsche-

[jonnyBgood]

Soo...I know most on this Forum are not Lance fans (I'm 50/50) ...but after all of these lawsuits that have come against him he still has not been found guilty of doping ...

....so let's keep wasting more money and time trying to prove he is guilty.

"everybody knows he is guilty or doped" but still no one can prove it. :confused:

As I see it since he is completing again and doing very well in triathlons... let's try and prove that he doped ten years ago so he can't race anymore...or by the time the case is over and nothing is proved again he is too old to compete with the top guys.

I just don't get it anymore. Let the guy kick everyones butt in triathlons and he will retire for good and we won't hear from him.

[laupsi]

Yeah I know - I didn't agree with stripping Floyd either - what he got caught for was small time stuff compared to the other stuff he was using and probably everyone else in the top 20 in that race. If its about the integrity of the sport and "this race" and its "marveled history", well that horse left the barn a LOOOOONG time ago. Might as well strip Big Mig and Hinault and Eddie and Jaques too. And what's the point in that? It is a great sport and a great race and it does have a great history, but its not a clean history and Lance is just one part of that whole story.

-Ray

so given all that's transpired w/the LA era; the efficiency w/which doping was practiced and how money decided who got caught and who didn't, considering that the momentum was not there for Big Mig and Hinault and Eddie, (EM by the way did admit to some doping as did JA), prior to EPO all drugs were available to all riders, testing methods were applied across the board, are you saying nothing should be done? circumstance has no meaning?

[bostondrunk]

Once again, I don't have any doubt that he doped and I can't stand his generally holier than thou stance about the whole thing. So there's a certain justice in him finally getting his. But OTOH, I don't seen ANY point in stripping him of his 7 titles because its not like each of those titles will fall to a second place finisher who DIDN'T dope! I don't believe for a minute that there was a top finisher in any of those races who was clean. He was the best rider in each of those races and deserves the wins. The playing field, for better or worse, was level.

So, make a spectacle of it, nail him to the wall, do whatever - he's earned it. But if you take his 7 titles away, don't give them to anyone else, because there's nobody to give them to who was riding any cleaner than he was...

-Ray

Well said.
I think a lot of people tend to say that Lance's 'fans' think he didn't dope.
I think that is 99% wrong. Of course he doped. But so did everyone else. So did (do) pros in soccer, baseball, football, hockey, darts, ping pong.....
He is no more guilty than anyone else, and he earned his victories.
And all those other riders that were sanctioned.....they tested POSITIVE!
Lance played the game, he took all the tests, they didn't catch him. That pisses them off, so now they need to rely on testimony from athletes that lied about their own -positive- tests, took money from people for their defence, wrote books to profit from while still pleading innocence, and then when the opportunity presents itself to make more money through interviews, through government finder fees, when they couldn't blackmail their way back into cycling, they 'come clean' and bash lance. Nice.

[laupsi]

Well said.
I think a lot of people tend to say that Lance's 'fans' think he didn't dope.
I think that is 99% wrong. Of course he doped. But so did everyone else. So did (do) pros in soccer, baseball, football, hockey, darts, ping pong.....
He is no more guilty than anyone else, and he earned his victories.
And all those other riders that were sanctioned.....they tested POSITIVE!
Lance played the game, he took all the tests, they didn't catch him. That pisses them off, so now they need to rely on testimony from athletes that lied about their own -positive- tests, took money from people for their defence, wrote books to profit from while still pleading innocence, and then when the opportunity presents itself to make more money through interviews, through government finder fees, when they couldn't blackmail their way back into cycling, they 'come clean' and bash lance. Nice.

you are wrong. do your homework please. LA TESTED POSITIVE FOR STEROIDS AND FOR EPO. THOSE TESTS WERE REFUTED DUE TO STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS, LEGAL MUMBO JUMBO AND COERCION.

[bostondrunk]

you are wrong. Do your homework please. La tested positive for steroids and for epo. Those tests were refuted due to statute of limitations, legal mumbo jumbo and coercion.

in other words, using their own rules, they still did not catch him.

[Ray]

FWIW, I'm the farthest thing from a Lance fan. Everything I've read (because almost none of us has firsthand knowledge of ANY of this) suggests he's a real jerk to anyone who's not on his team and many who are, that he's guilty as hell, and that he's a holier than thou hypocrit who makes some of the worst members of Congress look relatively non-hypocritical. And I don't have any problem with anybody going after him for whatever. And fine the hell out of him, toss him in the clink if you can make criminal charges stick (which they evidently don't think they can) - I've got no love for Lance.

I just think that stripping him of his titles and handing them to the second place riders in all of those years is stupid. None of them were clean. It's a farce if you think it does anything to restore some sort of mythical "integrity of the game". There's always been doping in high level cycling - only the technology and effectiveness have changed. Whether they can clean it up in the present or future I highly doubt. Lance is part of that tradition, whether you consider it a grand or horrible tradition. He was the best grand tour cyclist of his era. He will be whether he's stripped or not and some other doped rider gets his medals or not.

Do what you want to the guy - I won't shed a tear for him. But don't be under the illusion that stripping him of his titles will somehow restore the sport's sullied name.

BTW, I still think its a beautiful sport, scandals and all. There are very few if any high level pro sports that aren't sullied and many of them are still beautiful competitive exercises and reveal all sorts of character and guts and are entertaining as hell to watch.

-Ray

[Nooch]

decent write up by charles pelkey: http://redkiteprayer.com/2012/06/the-explainer-just-when-i-thought-i-was-out-they-pull-me-back-in/

[Fixed]

Maybe they should strip all the past winners of the t.d.f.
Start all over again with monks ..but they like to drink to much :)
Oh ,... Never mind ..
Who said something like no tour was ever won on water ?
Or something like that
Cheers.

[William]

Of course he doped. But so did everyone else. So did (do) pros in soccer, baseball, football, hockey, darts, ping pong.....
He is no more guilty than anyone else, and he earned his victories.
And all those other riders that were sanctioned.....they tested POSITIVE!



"Point of parliamentary procedure!

Ladies and gentlemen, I'll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with performance enhancing drugs - we did. ;)

But you can't hold a Lance responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole cycling system? And if the whole cycling system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our American sports institutions in general? I put it to you, Drunk - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America!!!

Gentlemen! " (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5EX-ui8WWk)




William

[Jaq]

Right and the USPS isn't really the govenment either..

USADA is funded by the govenment therefore is an extension of the USG.

It's not. It only receives limited funding from the US gov't; otherwise, it makes its money via contracting out to various events and athletic organizations. It's also a non-profit.

Basically, the USADA is the National Public Radio of Anti-doping agencies.

[Nooch]

more entertaining than anything, the comments on yahoo: http://sports.yahoo.com/news/us-anti-doping-agency-charges-203910063--spt.html

"Why don't they just run the race -- it's a better test of the individual"

LOLZ.

[slowgoing]

Hopefully we get to hear the evidence. If Hincapie said he doped, he's done.

[Rada]

you are wrong. do your homework please. LA TESTED POSITIVE FOR STEROIDS AND FOR EPO. THOSE TESTS WERE REFUTED DUE TO STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS, LEGAL MUMBO JUMBO AND COERCION.

I love your world view and think I will adopt it. If someone does not agree with my opinion then they are not being logical. If the courts do not suit me it is because of legal mumbo jumbo and coercion. All the while I am not required to provide any proof of my opinions or to invalidate others. Awesome.

[bostondrunk]

"Point of parliamentary procedure!

Ladies and gentlemen, I'll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with performance enhancing drugs - we did. ;)

But you can't hold a Lance responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole cycling system? And if the whole cycling system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our American sports institutions in general? I put it to you, Drunk - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America!!!

Gentlemen! " (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5EX-ui8WWk)




William

Totally lost me, like DBRK's threads on french fit..... ;)

[67-59]

Its going to be very interesting to see how this turns out. Personally, I don't mind the guy was doped to the gills, to beat other riders who were also doped to the gills.

What galls me is that he doesn't fess up to it, admit it was a mistake of the times, and we can all move on. Other atheletes in other sports have copped to their doping, the fans have forgiven them, and everyone's gotten over it. (Andy Pettitte is the main one that comes to mind.)


I have never understood this sentiment. You're more upset that he denies doping than you are with the fact that you believe he actually doped? Really?

[Viper]

Hopefully we get to hear the evidence. If Hincapie said he doped, he's done.

It's not what Hincapie saw or said, there needs to be evidence, blood and DNA. I've read a lot about, Mr. Armstrong, this is my latest and look forward to sitting by a friend's pool, iced tea and reading:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1884737099/ref=pe_175190_21431760_M2C_SC_dp_1

Betsy Andreu (aka Kate Jackson ohh lala) testified.

http://crackbillionair.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/frankie-n-lance.jpg

1999 steroid positive at le Tour.
Doctor's certificate post-dated for steroid use to combat saddle sore.
Frankie and Betsy already both testified many years ago.
Tailwind Sports Vs. Lance Armstrong with $5M buckaroos at stake.
Lance won.
Greg LeMond's opinion.
L'Equipe's 'tests' and opinions.
Tyler Hamilton.
Floyd Landis.
Dr. Ferrari found guilty.
Perhaps George Hincapie spoke as well.

They either need physical evidence or Armstrong would need to speak. Other than this, there is nothing.

[PQJ]

They either need physical evidence or Armstrong would need to speak. Other than this, there is nothing.

I don't believe you are that naive.

[gearguywb]

Can we please move on to something more relevant today? How many millions have been spent chasing this down...and what to show for it?

If you stripped away titles who would you give them to? The guy in 30th place that didn't test positive?

Sounds like it was a level playing field (if you believe that Lance is guilty). Everyone he beat was doped to the gills.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I don't believe you are that naive.

. . . from sliding downhill, please.

BD, William's reference is to a scene from Animal House where frat was being brought up on charges by Dean Wormer.

BBD

[Tony T]

Greg LeMond's opinion.

LeMond still thinks that they were shooting B-12 up his arse when he won :)

.

[bcm119]

Once again, I don't have any doubt that he doped and I can't stand his generally holier than thou stance about the whole thing. So there's a certain justice in him finally getting his. But OTOH, I don't seen ANY point in stripping him of his 7 titles because its not like each of those titles will fall to a second place finisher who DIDN'T dope! I don't believe for a minute that there was a top finisher in any of those races who was clean. He was the best rider in each of those races and deserves the wins. The playing field, for better or worse, was level.

So, make a spectacle of it, nail him to the wall, do whatever - he's earned it. But if you take his 7 titles away, don't give them to anyone else, because there's nobody to give them to who was riding any cleaner than he was...

-Ray

+1

Ray, always a voice of reason.

[PQJ]

. . . from sliding downhill, please.


That wasn't my intent at all. It was a compliment to Viper's intelligence, actually, though I can see how it might not appear as such, so sorry.

[Germany_chris]

this thread will be locked before I go to bed tonight..right now it's 8pm.

[FlashUNC]

I have never understood this sentiment. You're more upset that he denies doping than you are with the fact that you believe he actually doped? Really?

On some level, I am upset he doped. But I can also understand the reasoning behind doing so as a professional athlete. Lots of professional athletes -- cycling and baseball are the two most prominent in my mind -- have mentioned how some of their rivals would go off in the offseason at one ability level, and come back the next season like some kind of super mutant. Guys with marginal home run power suddenly hitting 50 or more in a season. Or big burly sprinters suddenly rocketing up climbs.

So yeah, if you're a guy trying to hold onto a job in a sport you've given your life over to, I can understand why some would start doping. It doesn't excuse the behavior, but I can see the pressures an athlete can be under to perform.

In the cycling world, nobody's articulated those pressures more than David Millar, and I think has done a great job making amends.

What I find galling are those who, even with the benefit of hindsight, refuse to admit they made a mistake. I think the only real way to come to terms with what happened long-term is put in place whatever you can to pursue current cheating, but also accept that the past super-doping era needs a harsh dose of truth and reconciliation.

As a fan, I'm willing to forgive those who can look back and admit that they made mistakes while under a very public and intense spotlight. And it seems from the evidence out there a lot of fans are willing to forgive. What I can't abide are those who continue to deny, deny, deny even when mounting evidence and logic appears to the contrary. Maybe that's an unfair standard, wanting a pound of public flesh, the Jimmy Swaggart tearful confession, or whatever other form it may take.

But Armstrong, for me, is no different than Rafael Palmeiro, Mark McGwire or Marion Jones, wrapped in their "I'm not here to talk about the past" mental gymnastics.

[jimcav]

Well, you lose all credibility when you believe that Lance "paid off" the US Gov't, or that they "gave up".

Fact is, the case did not go forward due to lack of evidence.

.

I think there was not enough to prove a crime occurred, especially given the expense of the trial. There is obviously tons of evidence and enough of it credible that the USADA is willing to bet they can prove doping--that is a different issue than the "crimes" the Feds were investigating...

I am bummed as I enjoyed what he was doing as far as increasing interest and coverage for triathon. This is all just another victory for HFCS the fattening of america

[Germany_chris]

On some level, I am upset he doped. But I can also understand the reasoning behind doing so as a professional athlete. Lots of professional athletes -- cycling and baseball are the two most prominent in my mind -- have mentioned how some of their rivals would go off in the offseason at one ability level, and come back the next season like some kind of super mutant. Guys with marginal home run power suddenly hitting 50 or more in a season. Or big burly sprinters suddenly rocketing up climbs.

So yeah, if you're a guy trying to hold onto a job in a sport you've given your life over to, I can understand why some would start doping. It doesn't excuse the behavior, but I can see the pressures an athlete can be under to perform.

In the cycling world, nobody's articulated those pressures more than David Millar, and I think has done a great job making amends.

What I find galling are those who, even with the benefit of hindsight, refuse to admit they made a mistake. I think the only real way to come to terms with what happened long-term is put in place whatever you can to pursue current cheating, but also accept that the past super-doping era needs a harsh dose of truth and reconciliation.

As a fan, I'm willing to forgive those who can look back and admit that they made mistakes while under a very public and intense spotlight. And it seems from the evidence out there a lot of fans are willing to forgive. What I can't abide are those who continue to deny, deny, deny even when mounting evidence and logic appears to the contrary. Maybe that's an unfair standard, wanting a pound of public flesh, the Jimmy Swaggart tearful confession, or whatever other form it may take.

But Armstrong, for me, is no different than Rafael Palmeiro, Mark McGwire or Marion Jones, wrapped in their "I'm not here to talk about the past" mental gymnastics.

The assumption there is they believe they made a mistake..

The issue is "they" will do what it takes to succeed/accomplish the mission. "They" didn't err they did what it took.

I learned long ago that accomplishing what is to be done is far more important than how it was accomplished within reason. People American in particular tend to forgive success. To bring up the example I love so much President Obama committed an act of war to a mostly friendly nation when he got OBL. None of this was really talked about on the major media outlets because we "got our man." Did president Obama make a mistake or did he accomplish the mission?

[William]

Originally Posted by William View Post
"Point of parliamentary BEER procedure!

Ladies and gentlemen, I'll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few BEER rules, or took a few liberties with performance enhancing BEER drugs - we did.

But you can't hold a Lance responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then BEER shouldn't we blame the whole cycling system? And if the whole cycling system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our American sports institutions in BEER general? I put it to you, Drunk - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever BEER you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth BEER the United States of America!!!

Gentlemen! "




William



Totally lost me, like DBRK's threads on french fit..... ;)


.

[laupsi]

I love your world view and think I will adopt it. If someone does not agree with my opinion then they are not being logical. If the courts do not suit me it is because of legal mumbo jumbo and coercion. All the while I am not required to provide any proof of my opinions or to invalidate others. Awesome.

you telling me the test resuts showing LA doped don't exist?

[67-59]

On some level, I am upset he doped. But I can also understand the reasoning behind doing so as a professional athlete. Lots of professional athletes -- cycling and baseball are the two most prominent in my mind -- have mentioned how some of their rivals would go off in the offseason at one ability level, and come back the next season like some kind of super mutant. Guys with marginal home run power suddenly hitting 50 or more in a season. Or big burly sprinters suddenly rocketing up climbs.

So yeah, if you're a guy trying to hold onto a job in a sport you've given your life over to, I can understand why some would start doping. It doesn't excuse the behavior, but I can see the pressures an athlete can be under to perform.

In the cycling world, nobody's articulated those pressures more than David Millar, and I think has done a great job making amends.

What I find galling are those who, even with the benefit of hindsight, refuse to admit they made a mistake. I think the only real way to come to terms with what happened long-term is put in place whatever you can to pursue current cheating, but also accept that the past super-doping era needs a harsh dose of truth and reconciliation.

As a fan, I'm willing to forgive those who can look back and admit that they made mistakes while under a very public and intense spotlight. And it seems from the evidence out there a lot of fans are willing to forgive. What I can't abide are those who continue to deny, deny, deny even when mounting evidence and logic appears to the contrary. Maybe that's an unfair standard, wanting a pound of public flesh, the Jimmy Swaggart tearful confession, or whatever other form it may take.

But Armstrong, for me, is no different than Rafael Palmeiro, Mark McGwire or Marion Jones, wrapped in their "I'm not here to talk about the past" mental gymnastics.

We view it very differently then. To me, the only important questions are "did he dope?" and "if he doped, did it give him an unfair advantage over his competitors, or was he just doing what everybody else did?" For what it's worth, I suspect the answers are yes, and that he was just doing what the other contenders did...and then beat them.

Whether he ever actually says so is irrelevant to me.

What infuriates me is the fact that the only things that could ever come from these investigations is negative. Can you think of any tangible positives from stripping him of his TdF wins? There certainly aren't any second, third or fourth place guys who were clean and deserve the title. And the idea of continuing to go down the list until you find a clean rider wouldn't work either. What you'd probably get to is a guy who never tested positive...perhaps due to the fact that he finished low down enough in the standings that he rarely got tested. Was the 45th place guy really clean? Probably not in an era where some say "everybody doped." So what you'd probably have is the TdF champion listed as "vacated" for seven straight years. Is that a good thing, and if so how?

And how about the negatives? How about blemishing the image of a guy who, hate him or not, has given real hope to cancer sufferers everywhere? How about blemishing the image of a guy who has probably done more to raise money for cancer research than any person of his era? Will it benefit us if we lose that? You probably won't think so if you know anyone who has suffered from cancer.

Yes, let's continue to pursue an issue that can't possibly have a good outcome, and could very easily have a negative one for many, many people...just to get him to admit he doped, so you feel better.

[Wayne77]

We need a 'Stock' class for all the clean athletes (who live in USADA/WADA monitored housing, with a USADA/WADA minder that follows them everywhere 24/7)

....and a 'SUPER MODIFIED' class, anything goes, but riders have to sign a waiver to compete.

'Super Modified' competitors are only relegated if their blood samples contain less than 50% artifical blood substances, or if it isn't a shade of green and it doesn't glow. In those cases, they receive a life-time ban, but can still race in the 'Stock' class once they get their bloodwork and performance back to normal levels. The following exceptions apply to the life time ban: a) The rider opens a defense fund and raises more than 500K b) writes a book about how lazy they really are, how little they train, and how many donuts they eat, or c) hires an expert team of scientists to formulate an original theory (the chimeric twin theory has been used already) explaining their human-like performance levels. If said rider meets any one of those requirements, they get a slap on the wrist, put on a better "program", and only a 2 week suspension.

Problem solved.

http://www.zimbio.com/watch/eCAK7g_y-pa/Weekend+Update+Drug+Olympics/Saturday+Night+Live

Imagine the spectacle. 25 mph avg speeds up Ventoux, world records broken daily...they'd have to double the length of Le Tour since the peloton would finish too quickly. They'd also need pace cars to slow the peloton down so the caravan can keep up. Of course there are no guarantees we won't also witness riders hearts or lungs spontaneoulsly explode out of their chests on the mountain top finishes...but that's what the waivers are for.

Guess which class get's the TV ratings and sponsor $$$?

[ClutchCargo]

To 67-59's point.
Maybe we should just vacate all the results from those years.

1999
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Alex Zülle (‘98 busted for EPO)
3. Fernando Escartín (Festina team doping exposed in ‘04; he was never busted)
4. Laurent Dufaux (‘98 busted for EPO)
5. Ángel Casero (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)


2000
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
4. Christophe Moreau (‘98 busted for EPO)
5. Roberto Heras (‘05 busted for EPO)


2001
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
4. Andrei Kivilev (dead)
5. Igor González de Galdeano (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)


2002
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Raimondas Rumšas (Suspended in ‘03 for doping)
4. Santiago Botero (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
5. Igor González de Galdeano (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)


2003
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Alexander Vinokourov (Suspended in ‘07 for CERA)
4. Tyler Hamilton (Suspended ‘04 for blood doping)
5. Haimar Zubeldia (wait ... WE HAVE A WINNER)


2004
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Andreas Kloden (Named in doping case in ‘08)
3. Ivan Basso (Suspended in ‘07 for Operacion Puerto ties)
4. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
5. Jose Azevedo (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)


2005
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Ivan Basso (Suspended in ‘07 for Operacion Puerto ties)
3. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
4. Fransico Mancebo (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
5. Alexander Vinokourov (Suspended in ‘07 for CERA)

[lovethesport]

I have been an avid... no fanatical fan of Lances' since I saw him at a Norba race in Mt. Snow in '95.I have firmly believed and stated so in many private conversations that I thought he was clean even though I knew in my heart there was mounting evidence to the contrary. I mean the story is a fairy tail you want to be true. However, from one who got into cycling to then keep my young teenage boys out of trouble to truly loving the sport as nothing else, Lance needs for the honor of the sport to tell the truth and deal with the consequences. We as Americans are a forgiving group...the French, well,
that's a different story.

[slowgoing]

It's not what Hincapie saw or said, there needs to be evidence, blood and DNA.

I don't think so. If Hincapie says "I saw LA dope, I helped LA dope, he shot me up, I shot him up, etc., we were systematically doing it as a team and using masking agents, all with the help of the manager and all of these outside folks, and everything that Floyd and Tyler said is true," LA and all of the rest are done. Maybe LA will try to discredit Hincapie, but Hincapie appears to have less of a motivation to lie than the rest of them. Just speculation, of course, but I'd like to see what he said.

[Earl Gray]

....What I find galling are those who, even with the benefit of hindsight, refuse to admit they made a mistake.....

I've never understood why the general public (you in this case) feel that Lance (or any other athlete) owes you an apology or admission for anything they did or didn't do as part of their professional career? Frankly, it is none of your business how he handled himself.

Lance didn’t ask you to care or watch, you choose to do that on your own.

[Jeff N.]

I'm in kinda...you know...like...in a sorta...who gives a rats a!! mode now. Jeff N.

[nebraskacycling]

I've never understood why the general public (you in this case) feel that Lance (or any other athlete) owes you an apology or admission for anything they did or didn't do as part of their professional career? Frankly, it is none of your business how he handled himself.

Lance didn’t ask you to care or watch, you choose to do that on your own.

Wrong. Saying that he didn't ask people to watch is like saying he doesn't ask people to support the fight against cancer. Yes I choose to watch on my own, but he did ask me to care and watch. Maybe not physically asked me personally, but I feel that he did ask that of all cycling fans. Maybe I'm missing something and shouldn't expect honesty from someone who knows he is/was a potential role model for tons of people in the US. I guess that's what you are saying. People shouldn't hold themselves to any ethical standards?

[Viper]

Very quietly, Alberto Contador is the biggest weasel, liar, dirtbag and loser. Last year's Tour victory is removed from him? Great. Remove all of his. Do that USADA and then STFU.

:beer:

[Germany_chris]

Wrong. Saying that he didn't ask people to watch is like saying he doesn't ask people to support the fight against cancer. Yes I choose to watch on my own, but he did ask me to care and watch. Maybe not physically asked me personally, but I feel that he did ask that of all cycling fans. Maybe I'm missing something and shouldn't expect honesty from someone who knows he is/was a potential role model for tons of people in the US. I guess that's what you are saying. People shouldn't hold themselves to any ethical standards?

Yes you are missing something..

and we have yet to prove that he doped and even if he did that it was cheating that he did..

Whose ethical standards? My ethics say do what necessary to win..and drugs at least the ones I've played with tend to be fun.

What your saying is: Why didn't LA live up to my ideals of what a bike racer should be forgetting that most of my heroes doped too.

[Germany_chris]

Yes you are missing something..

and we have yet to prove that he doped and even if he did that it was cheating that he did..

Whose ethical standards? My ethics say do what necessary to win..and drugs at least the ones I've played with tend to be fun.

...

[William]

Lance didn’t ask you to care or watch, you choose to do that on your own.


Maybe not outright, but commercials like this are...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEEpn115eQE

It's inherent in the message. And Lance doesn't let any one use his image if he's not on board.




William


PS: Lance's secret reveled...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATbjan7QErk

Micheloops!:banana:

.

[Vientomas]

Very quietly, Alberto Contador is the biggest weasel, liar, dirtbag and loser. Last year's Tour victory is removed from him? Great. Remove all of his. Do that USADA and then STFU.

:beer:

Does USADA have jurisdiction over a Spainiard?

[William]

Didn't see this posted earlier...

Nevermind.




William

[Keith A]

Chris Horner offers his opinion on LA...
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chris-horner-i-dont-believe-armstrong-cheated

[PQJ]

I definitely have less respect for Mr. Horner this afternoon than I did this morning. Oh well.

[Viper]

Does USADA have jurisdiction over a Spainiard?

SPUSADA. Come up with an acronym and have that acronym strip Contador of every single victory and erase his entire career.

Then I will talk to USA-DA. :)

[firerescuefin]

SPUSADA. Come up with an acronym and have that acronym strip Contador of every single victory and erase his entire career.

Then I will talk to USA-DA. :)


.....and then there's the matter of the Soccer Team with its European and World Cup titles....that's where the real BS regading doping lies in Spain, and the man on the street there will tell you as much.

[cnighbor1]

Have I heard of him before. there was someone with a name like his that was pedaling around france a few years back. same person?
Very confused about the past
Charles

[Fixed]

The past is water under the bridge

Hate only makes you hateful
Cheers :bike:

[krhea]

Not sure if any of you had the chance to see this recent interview with Lance on the new Gavin Newsome show. I watched it the day it aired about 3weeks to a month ago and thought wow, everything is over and this Lance stuff will slowly fade into the sunset. From the sounds of what Lance says in the interview he thought the same thing...oops

This is just a 4min clip I found online. The entire interview was quite interesting if you can find it somewhere online:

http://current.com/shows/the-gavin-newsom-show/videos/page/2/

[Kevan]

his Austin shop is pretty damn cool.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8006/7187834797_69dc3041c3_o.jpg


But honestly...enough already. Maybe they should hold off until he's a tottering old man, easier then to badger. I mean...the authorities certainly seem willing to keep these fires burning.

[Rueda Tropical]

The Simeoni Affair pointed out nothing, did nothing and was nothing. It was an alpha-athlete, King of the peleton, who disliked Simeoni (for whatever reasons he hated him) and he chased him down, not allowing him to ride up front.

When the chase down is to let everyone know that anyone who threatens the doping infrastructure will be dealt with severely -it is significant. This was not a personal slap down it was a bit of strong arming by drug dealers to let everyone know who was in charge in pro cycling -the dopers.

[Rueda Tropical]

I've never understood why the general public (you in this case) feel that Lance (or any other athlete) owes you an apology or admission for anything they did or didn't do as part of their professional career? Frankly, it is none of your business how he handled himself.

Lance didn’t ask you to care or watch, you choose to do that on your own.

"We" are not asking for anything. When he signed up as a pro he knew the rules. If he broke them and the governing body caught him they are entitled to take action.

If you can't do the time don't do the crime.

[Pearsom]

1999
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Alex Zülle (‘98 busted for EPO)
3. Fernando Escartín (Festina team doping exposed in ‘04; he was never busted)
4. Laurent Dufaux (‘98 busted for EPO)
5. Ángel Casero (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)


2000
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
4. Christophe Moreau (‘98 busted for EPO)
5. Roberto Heras (‘05 busted for EPO)


2001
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
4. Andrei Kivilev (dead)
5. Igor González de Galdeano (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)


2002
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Raimondas Rumšas (Suspended in ‘03 for doping)
4. Santiago Botero (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
5. Igor González de Galdeano (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)


2003
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Alexander Vinokourov (Suspended in ‘07 for CERA)
4. Tyler Hamilton (Suspended ‘04 for blood doping)
5. Haimar Zubeldia (wait ... WE HAVE A WINNER)


2004
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Andreas Kloden (Named in doping case in ‘08)
3. Ivan Basso (Suspended in ‘07 for Operacion Puerto ties)
4. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
5. Jose Azevedo (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)


2005
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Ivan Basso (Suspended in ‘07 for Operacion Puerto ties)
3. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
4. Fransico Mancebo (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
5. Alexander Vinokourov (Suspended in ‘07 for CERA)

never saw this list before. and he beat them all... clean

[slowgoing]

Hate only makes you hateful
Cheers :bike:

I don't hate him. I just want him to be exposed and lose his titles if he cheated and lied. Plus I want to see and hear the evidence against him so I can form my own opinion.

[Germany_chris]

"We" are not asking for anything. When he signed up as a pro he knew the rules. If he broke them and the governing body caught him they are entitled to take action.

If you can't do the time don't do the crime.

If I'm willing to do the time can I commit the "crime"??

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

i'm in kinda...you know...like...in a sorta...who gives a rats a!! Mode now. Jeff n.

+1

[Earl Gray]

....If he broke them and the governing body caught him they are entitled to take action.


Agreed 100%! Not sure that anybody disagrees.

What is not in agreement is what if he cheated but the governing body did not catch him. Is anybody else entitled anything? ATMO, no they are not.

[67-59]

When the chase down is to let everyone know that anyone who threatens the doping infrastructure will be dealt with severely -it is significant. This was not a personal slap down it was a bit of strong arming by drug dealers to let everyone know who was in charge in pro cycling -the dopers.

One possible interpretation. Another is that if you say something bad about me, I will make you look bad. Since you sound absolutely certain it's the former, you must be saying that Lance would never do the latter. Otherwise, how would you know for sure?

[Viper]

Dear Lance,

I didn't like you early on. You replaced an idol of mine, Greg LeMond. The mid and late 80's were a magical time in cycling and when I heard your name during the 1991 Tour du Pont, you were labeled a brash Texan who mashed his pedals. You seemed all prettyboy compared to our tough LeMond, he who survived gunshot wounds. He who survived France, a French Badger and seemingly invented American cycling.

The next time I heard your name, you accomplished a few neat things in Europe; the 1993 World Championship, in the rain, you pulled a Sidi shoe out of your arse and won the top step. It seemed to be a changing of the guard, with some 80's legends passing the water bottle over to you. Or maybe you just took it. Either way, your name was now known in America and throughout Europe. Armstrong.

Your career was growing as by 1995 you had another nice Spring outing with Liege-Bastone-Liege and Fleche Wallonne...you learned much, but you were not a LeMond, yet. It seemed you weren't designed for GC, long races, long climbs. Especially in France. However you made your mark, a moment in the 1995 Tour de France when you won Stage 18, dedicating the victory, "This was for Fabio Casartelli...I was very, very bad in the last bit, but I kept thinking of him. I did it for one person." With this accomplisment for your mate on Team Motorola, it seemed perhaps you had the makings of a champion; an athlete who knowns when he or she must win, while also remaining humble, grounded and inspired by things greater than themselves.

I watched your press conference, many of us did:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWBTNPTAJTc

Testicular cancer? During the 80's and 90's, many women were ashamed, scared and shy to mention, "Breast cancer." Cancer is a word we do not ever want to utter or hear and when something as personal as a woman's breast, her shape, her figure, feminine sex appeal is attached to it, it makes sense that early on, breast cancer was hush-hush.

Testicular cancer? Cancer of your dick? What the? People did not know and many made fun of what they did not understand. Human nature. Beat the disease? If you did, what would you be left with and left as? So little was publically known about testicular cancer, or really all cancers. There was no internet, just CNN and newspapers.

We never thought you'd survive or follow through on your written-speech-promise of, "Beat the disease and futher, I intend to compete again as a professional cyclist." You couldn't have thought this, deepdown as when you started your speech at that press conference, you were composed...until you mentioned, "The CAT scan revealed-----the condition had spread-----to my abdomen." As you announced the one word related to cancer which we all knew to be a death sentence, "spread", you fell apart. Many imagined you would fight cancer and lose, slowly, over a year or two. It's what we saw with so many cancers at the time.

1999.

I don't have to tell you or anyone what took place, nor the following six Tours de France. Seeing you in 1999 was yes, a miracle of science, medicine, the will to live and the athletic desire to win, win, win.

Did you ingest steroids, EPO and blood doping? The tests told us no. You won. Was the entire peleton doping, yourself included? Was this as LeMond offered, a miracle or fraud? Every cyclist has an opinion and some of their perspectives have changed 180* over the years, while others remain staunch, steadfast in their defense, or pointed accusations of le Texan.

American sprinter, Marion Jones. Her case opened the eyes and minds of the sporting audience. She who never failed a test, was higher than Elton John in the 70's. Words like BALCO, Bonds and Clemens became attached to prefix's of, "cheater". Russians and the Chinese, only they are the ones who dope, juice and cheat. It's what the Olympic's announcers told us. I have my own opinions pertaining to EPO and morality is a mountaintop finish every human should strive to win daily, but there has not been evidence found and so you shouldn't care what I think, nor mind what does not matter. If your conscience is clear, do what you do best to the pundits, take to the highroad.

I believe your greatest victory is this:

http://estaticos03.cache.el-mundo.net/elmundodeporte/especiales/2005/07/tour_francia/armstrong/maquina/img/hospital_madre_videofundaci.jpg

No tests needed. No truth or lies require definition in that photo.

Good luck. And if you ever wanna race up Lone Oak Drive, Stanton Street or TT in my neck of the woods, give me a call.

Regards,
Viper

[Tony T]

Does anyone here think any cyclist in the 2012 ProTour is racing "clean"?
I would find it hard to believe that El Pistolo was the last dirty pro.

[Tony T]

NYTimes & WSJ Today:

[Elefantino]

Does anyone here think any cyclist in the 2012 ProTour is racing "clean"?
a) Define clean, otherwise
b) Yes

[67-59]

Great post, Viper. Puts things into perspective.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . on Cyclingnews.com . . .

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bassons-and-simeoni-say-armstrong-probe-is-overdue

BBD

[Fixed]

Great post, Viper. Puts things into perspective.

+1
Cheers

[laupsi]

Well if George spilled the beans then perhaps pandora's box will have been torn to shreds. Time will tell...

[Tony T]

Will this mean that George doped? I don't believe it.

[William]

Well, he doesn't deny direct questions....but he doesn't answer them either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3Jb3C8xaho





William

[DreaminJohn]

Welcome BACK, man. Truly.

If I may be so bold as to quote another friend of the Forum, Viper gets it.

[Keith A]

Well, he doesn't deny direct questions....but he doesn't answer them either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3Jb3C8xaho
I like GH, but he sure sounded like a politician in that clip
http://www.directsmiley.com/cat/36/36_17_5.gif

[laupsi]

GH's silence is deafening in that clip. read in this morning's WSJ though that he sang like a canary to the Feds and he cannot change his testimony however he may refuse to speak again about it.

[lovethesport]

Wonderfully stated... are you sure you aren't Bill Strilckland?

[lovethesport]

Wonderfully stated... are you sure you aren't Bill Strilckland?

Meant for Viper!

[Elefantino]

Wonderfully stated... are you sure you aren't Bill Strilckland?
If he were Bill Strickland, he'd use "I" a lot more than he did.

A lot more.

[Joachim]

No one is asking any questions about Chris Carmichael....

[Liv2RideHard]

I find Horner's comments interesting. I am a big Horner fan, have been for a long time. He had a front row seat for a long time. I will not get involved with all the LA back and forth but wanted to link Horner's interview.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chris-horner-i-dont-believe-armstrong-cheated

[PQJ]

/\/\/\ hincapie has NEVER come to lances defense.

[dyerwolf]

All interesting points but without question the MVPost goes to Viper! Salient and eloquent. Your writing summed up this debacle so well. Cheers.

[1happygirl]

Sorry if this has been posted but ...Lance meets xtranormal fbi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyUpwfVeN9c&feature=watch_response_rev
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y4WaU7Lk7U&feature=fvwrel

I didn't watch all of them, just the last part seemed funny.
as I said in another thread convenient timing and all out of Tour plus French Tri
Race.No one is asking any questions about Chris Carmichael....
true just my opinion but hardly seems bright enough to have done a lot in this

[BumbleBeeDave]

I find Horner's comments interesting. I am a big Horner fan, have been for a long time. He had a front row seat for a long time. I will not get involved with all the LA back and forth but wanted to link Horner's interview.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chris-horner-i-dont-believe-armstrong-cheated

I'm trying to keep in mind that Johan has something Horner wants VERY much--a spot on the TdF team. With Andy out, he has a chance to get it, so I would not expect him to say anything that would jeopardize that. But he's also known as a colorful, friendly interview. So if reporters start calling him about this--which is a certainty--if he suddenly starts declining comment or spouting vague, nebulous stuff they are going to notice--and probably report it.

In other words, he says less by saying something than he does by saying nothing.

BBD

[1centaur]

It's not the article that's interesting (scan for tone), it's the comments. Lance knows the proportion of believers, and it's very, very high.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/15/opinion/pearlman-lance-armstrong/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

[William]

It's not the article that's interesting (scan for tone), it's the comments. Lance knows the proportion of believers, and it's very, very high.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/15/opinion/pearlman-lance-armstrong/index.html?hpt=hp_t2


I believe that the number of "believers" is very high. I would also bet that the number of true "believers" are not hard core cycling enthusiasts. They are more likely average Joe's who have cancer, have beaten cancer, or know family and loved ones lost to cancer. He gives people hope. That is a great thing for those effected by the big "C". That certainly doesn't mean that he didn't dope and I think a large percentage of the core cycling enthusiasts think that he did...but those numbers are less.

I think like Tyler and Floyd, he will deny it until there is no other option. If that day comes, he will flip just like the others. If that day comes, I can take nothing away from him regarding the hope he gave those effected by cancer, even if that road was tainted. But, in regards to cycling itself, if he cheated, throw him under the bus like the others.....unless you think he deserves a pass for Livestrong.com/org etc...







William

[PQJ]

William - no 'if's'. He doped. No question about it. None.

[Earl Gray]

It's not the article that's interesting (scan for tone), it's the comments. Lance knows the proportion of believers, and it's very, very high.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/15/opinion/pearlman-lance-armstrong/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

It's interesting how he goes on about Barry Bonds being invisible and insignificant.

Why mention him if he is so.

[PQJ]

It's interesting how he goes on about Barry Bonds being invisible and insignificant.

Why mention him if he is so.

As an example of what he has become, which is germane to his thesis.

[William]

It's interesting how he goes on about Barry Bonds being invisible and insignificant.

Why mention him if he is so.

Who?




;)
William

[texbike]

NYTimes & WSJ Today:

Hmmm. The timing of Hincapie announcing his retirement is interesting. Could it be that he was aware that the indictment was coming down the path and chose to announce BEFORE this news? My bet is that he delivered testimony that supported the Armstrong doping allegations and implicated himself in the process. The announcement of retirement before the USADA letter wouldn't have seen as suspicious.

Texbike

[Elefantino]

Who?
.

[fiamme red]

Who?




;)
Williamhttp://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/azstarnet.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/d/21/d2199de0-12fa-11e1-b0a3-001cc4c03286/4ec8288b622cb.image.jpg

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6042/6368115909_e3ca9fac06_b.jpg

[Keith A]

I believe that the number of "believers" is very high. I would also bet that the number of true "believers" are not hard core cycling enthusiasts. They are more likely average Joe's who have cancer, have beaten cancer, or know family and loved ones lost to cancer. He gives people hope. That is a great thing for those effected by the big "C". That certainly doesn't mean that he didn't dope and I think a large percentage of the core cycling enthusiasts think that he did...but those numbers are less.

I think like Tyler and Floyd, he will deny it until there is no other option. If that day comes, he will flip just like the others. If that day comes, I can take nothing away from him regarding the hope he gave those effected by cancer, even if that road was tainted. But, in regards to cycling itself, if he cheated, throw him under the bus like the others.....unless you think he deserves a pass for Livestrong.com/org etc...William -- This is the thing that has me puzzled the most. I do think that LA has done much for the cancer community and individuals...and I get the sense that he really does care about this. So why would he risk damaging his LAF by continuing to do PEDs? I can under him doing this before he created the LAF, but afterwards...it just seems like the stakes were too high for him to continue doping considering the damage this would do to cancer community if he was caught.

[William]

William -- This is the thing that has me puzzled the most. I do think that LA has done much for the cancer community and individuals...and I get the sense that he really does care about this. So why would he risk damaging his LAF by continuing to do PEDs? I can under him doing this before he created the LAF, but afterwards...it just seems like the stakes were too high for him to continue doping considering the damage this would do to cancer community if he was caught.


I hear you Keith, but why do people do the things they do? We hear every day of people doing stuff that just makes you scratch your head and wonder Whiskey Tango Foxtrot??

Maybe that wasn't the goal but once the ball got rolling staying on top to keep it rolling became paramount? Maybe it was just the "eff you" after recovery that made stomping all those that gave up on him an utmost priority? Remember the Cofidis pledge to stick by him then they turned around and let him go. I'm just throwing possibilities out there now matter how absurd. But again, people can and do weird things.






William

[BumbleBeeDave]

He gives people hope.

. . . for the popularity--and wealth--of so many televangelists. Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, and many others retained cores of dedicated believers even after the public exposure of their feet of clay. Same for many discredited politicians. People who feel like they have no hope need heroes and countless public figures have played upon that need, benevolently or otherwise.

I'm sure many of these people really did start out in their crusades with the honest intention to help people. But somewhere something went wrong and it stopped being all about those they were trying to help and became all about them. Has Lance already crossed that line? I don't know. I don't think it's a change that comes overnight.

BBD

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . from CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/15/opinion/pearlman-lance-armstrong/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

BBD

[54ny77]

it is pretty staggering to hear of all the tests he's taken and never once found to be overindulging on spanish bisteca.

http://milkcashcow.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/cow_rev.jpg

[William]

http://forkknifeeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/IMG_0593.jpg




William

[tuxbailey]

William -- This is the thing that has me puzzled the most. I do think that LA has done much for the cancer community and individuals...and I get the sense that he really does care about this. So why would he risk damaging his LAF by continuing to do PEDs? I can under him doing this before he created the LAF, but afterwards...it just seems like the stakes were too high for him to continue doping considering the damage this would do to cancer community if he was caught.

It is easy to rationalize once you get on the wrong path. Maybe he started to believe that he was sacrificing his own integrity so that the cancer patients could benefit. And the fame and fortune (and hot women) that come with such rationalization certainly helps.

Even if he one day declares that he really cheated, he can always say that he sacrificed his conscience for the greater good. Unlike M. Jones, Bonds, McGuire, etc. There aren't a large group of cancer patients who back those athletes.

[Viper]

I hear you Keith, but why do people do the things they do?
William

Tis' a leaf of magic from the vine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G03Iw8qdBCk&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL84842E9F2C6B0073

Baby, William
I see this world is made of sin
Some people can be bad
The things they do
The things they say
But baby, William
I'll wipe away those bitter tears
I'll chase away those restless fears
That turn your blue skies into gray
Why worry?
There should be laughter after pain
There should be sunshine after rain
These things have always been the same
So why worry?

"Her voice. His guitar. I quit life."
~anonymous YouTube comment

BONUS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIlqlLuQxnY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlnfZVX9_L4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwve8kSfuoQ

:beer:

[67-59]

. . . for the popularity--and wealth--of so many televangelists. Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, and many others retained cores of dedicated believers even after the public exposure of their feet of clay. Same for many discredited politicians. People who feel like they have no hope need heroes and countless public figures have played upon that need, benevolently or otherwise.

I'm sure many of these people really did start out in their crusades with the honest intention to help people. But somewhere something went wrong and it stopped being all about those they were trying to help and became all about them. Has Lance already crossed that line? I don't know. I don't think it's a change that comes overnight.

BBD

Whether or not televangelists started with the intention of helping others, the common theme seems to be that at some point, they lost that altruistic motive and it became ALL about themselves. Lance, on the other hand, still helps others every day...with every dollar he gets through the LAF, and every cancer patient he visits in the hospital or talks with at an event.

Yeah, he also gets continued fame and adulation, so it isn't as though there's nothing in it for him. But no matter how you look at it, he is STILL helping many, many others every day of his life.