speaking of cars, what is collective wisdom on Sub BRZ?

[eddief]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrfRFtiVqNQ

[David Kirk]

I sat in one today - seemed nice standing still!?

dave

[eddief]

you were the first person who came to mind when i was googling about them today. one might think when it gets the turbonium treatment, things could way more interesting. ie BRZ-WRX.


I sat in one today - seemed nice standing still!?

dave

[tannhauser]

No idea, but the reviews say it's really easy to drive hard so not sure I like that but glad Toyotabru decided to develop it for northern climes wherein a soft top is less appealing.

Did see a Ferrari today that had similar profiles to it and the Hyundai Genesis, so pretty classic look.

That said I'm enjoying my bike way more than my cars these days, which continue to collect dust. Two weeks now.

Hallelujah summer!

[witcombusa]

you were the first person who came to mind when i was googling about them today. one might think when it gets the turbonium treatment, things could way more interesting. ie BRZ-WRX.

not without all wheel drive....which is not going to happen.
I do see an uprated engine next year, it won't carry the REX banner though

[dustyrider]

Why wouldn't we see a turbo?
If Subaru doesn't do it someone will!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3__FHyDxS0&feature=fvwrel
There's plenty of turbo'd rear wheel drive cars out there right now.
I'm pretty sure Toyota made one, didn't they?

For my money I'd like to see, feel, and hear a NA supercharger. I like low end torque, a lot...
However it's doubtful with fuel efficiency standards becoming more and more strict we'll ever get one of those, unless it's aftermarket!


I found this BRZ commercial to be pretty cool, and I'm looking forward to getting my first up close look see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh_4S40KyHs

[witcombusa]

We WILL see a turbo BRZ...it just won't be badged as a WRX.

[dustyrider]

Aha, I get what you're saying.

I'm sure Petter Solberg will be happy with Subaru saving WRX only for AWDs!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpDSPhECTSA&feature=topics

[Brian Smith]

After the Scion variant comes out, the model will be (almost) a year old...
As far as cars go, these are pretty small money, so maybe not a lot ventured, but waiting a year for problems to raise their heads and be addressed isn't often a regrettable tactic.

Anyone know why Fuji didn't just develop and make these fully themselves? What's the real partnership backstory?

[eddief]

but did not have room in their manufacturing capacity. And Subaru had excess. So they teamed up with Sub engines, Toyota engineering, and Sub manufacturing.

After the Scion variant comes out, the model will be (almost) a year old...
As far as cars go, these are pretty small money, so maybe not a lot ventured, but waiting a year for problems to raise their heads and be addressed isn't often a regrettable tactic.

Anyone know why Fuji didn't just develop and make these fully themselves? What's the real partnership backstory?

[David Kirk]

The one I sat in was a Scion and I liked the way it fit me - not sure I'd have head room with a helmet but at 6'4" few cars do. But it felt good.

I've talked to some who have driven them and the reports are that they are fun but a bit low on torque which makes them feel a bit wheezy when passing or going hard. A very nice 'momentum car' but not as sporty as some might like with the longish 0-60 times.

I think it would be pretty fun to flow some canyon roads in and even more fun if the give it some forced induction.

I look forward to driving one.

dave

[eddief]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD3hgleEOXA

Sounds like BRZ has good agility and decent power, but without the muscle. I bet fun as hell.

[19wisconsin64]

hi, from all that i've read, it's an amazing sports car. it's sort of a back-to-basics with rear wheel drive, light weight, low weight, strong engine (but not something that will go waaaaaayyyy too fast), amazing handling, amazing steering, amazing shifting....it's a winner.
me, i'm a car nut, and have had many, many cars. one of my favorites of all time was a very similar car - the 1990 nissan 240 sx fastback with the sport package....inexpensive, great looking, great handling, and perfect ride for a sports car without beating you up as a daily driver.
drive it, see what you think. they say it's a little faster, but only marginally, than the toyota sibling. it just one the best of the under 25K sports car shootout.....that says something too! just watched a video review of it last week too.

the only thing you might check out...can you fit in a bike or two in there somewhere? just asking

cheers

[dd74]

From all I've read, it's a hell of a car that takes cues from the simplicity of the Miata, 240-Z and RX-8. In short, a real driver's car which forgoes huge amounts of horsepower for lightness and handling.

I read in one magazine that Subaru doesn't plan to turbocharge the BRZ, because turbo boxer engined cars belong to the WRX/STi family.

Balance seems more to be the car's design than horsepower. All it probably needs are some race tires for a good day's flogging at the track.

[kramnnim]

Adam Carolla talked about 'em on his CarCast recently...no clue if what he said would be helpful.

[FlashUNC]

As others have mentioned, seems to be a throwback to lighter, more nimble, but not overpowering HP cars. A curvy back road joy rather than a stoplight to stoplight monster.

I'm sure the turbo-less thing will last about 10 minutes after these start to get out into the wild.

And I think it looks pretty fantastic.

[benb]

I'm really surprised to see it's not AWD.. kind of breaks Subaru's marketing.

I may be in the market for a Subaru next year.. I don't think my RSX Type-S is going to work so well with a baby.. but I'd be looking at stuff like the Outback.. (hoping to find some kind of wagon that would allow me to stuff my bike in the trunk and not have to put both back seats down.

This car looks great.. the video was retarded though. Very inauthentic. The "enthusiasts" were just spewing auto-journalist phrases that seem to appear in every car article. Kind of like the auto equivalent of "Laterally stiff yet vertically compliant, and it climbs like a goat!"

[eddief]

OMFG - is this done with special effects or this what you get to do on the track?

I have no right to be thinking about this, but I am:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG2RuRk1R3s

[Hawker]

Check over at www.miata.net. Lots of reviews and a couple of guys already have bought them. Of course the big argument there is how it compares to the Miata. It appears to be a pretty well packaged car but personally I don't think I care for the looks all that much. However, like most cars it probably looks better in person.

[eddief]

paid to say it or just a damn good car.

i promise i will stop my googling now and let one you tell us how you like your new car. can one get paid for being a viral marketeer?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPoZ1SC8uwk

[Louis]

OMFG - is this done with special effects or this what you get to do on the track?

I have no right to be thinking about this, but I am:


So Eddie, how often would you actually drive it like that? Who do you think you are, Dave Kirk? ;)

[eddief]

So Eddie, how often would you actually drive it like that? Who do you think you are, Dave Kirk? ;)

I would never do that, but I am intersted in what seems like smooth, fun, quick. None have said how is the wind noise and the tire rumble. Those are things that bug about the Rav.

Nope. Dave Kirk has a much better set of hands and a Lotus already in the garage. But when you get to be my age, you might say, splurge and have some damn fun.

Ask the Bimmer dude from San Diego.

Louis. I wish it was a hatch then your probs would be solved. A new Integra for the modern times.

[Louis]

I wish it was a hatch then your probs would be solved. A new Integra for the modern times.

Agreed 100%

[tannhauser]

Check over at www.miata.net. Lots of reviews and a couple of guys already have bought them. Of course the big argument there is how it compares to the Miata. It appears to be a pretty well packaged car but personally I don't think I care for the looks all that much. However, like most cars it probably looks better in person.

My Miata-owning friend calls it miata.weirdo.net.

[SPOKE]

both the Sicon and Subaru seem to have the ingredients for great driving fun! it will be interesting to see how both cars evolve over the comming years.

the miata has changed a bunch since its initial introduction. just a sweet little package for sure. i like them so much that i'll soon be on my third one:banana:
just finalized the deal today on one of the 2012 Special Editions. I should have it by next weekend!!!!

[eddief]

but the Miata has 30 or 40 less HP. So maybe if the Miata is fast enough, the other two will be really fast enough.

[Louis]

Eddie, just get a Corvette and be done with it.

Based on your style on the forum I can tell that that's the best car for you. ;)

http://www.dashboardnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/red-corvette-zo6.jpg

[eddief]

just like you...practical all the way.

Eddie, just get a Corvette and be done with it.

Based on your style on the forum I can tell that that's the best car for you. ;)

http://www.dashboardnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/red-corvette-zo6.jpg

[tannhauser]

xxxxxxxxxx

[soulspinner]

I love the concept, a light sports car, but for 25-30 grand it seems like not enuff car................

[rice rocket]

An S2000 is better in every way (even used and abused), I don't see what the fuss is about.

[texbike]

I REALLY like the concept of the BRZ/FRS and applaud Toyota and Subaru for building it. However, I would prefer to spend the $25K on the latest, nicest S2000 that I could find, a 2005ish Lotus Elise, or even a 10 year old 911.

Texbike

[pjm]

I wonder if the price gouging has started yet?

[Chance]

Nice car for very limited market.

Too little torque for the way most Americans drive. They'll tire of it very quickly.

[David Kirk]

I think it looks like fun and look forward to trying one.

I wonder how Suby will deal with the marketing aspect of this car? For a very long time now they have been telling us that all-wheel drive is the best way to go and they have done very well with that corner of the market. Now - they have more of a sports car and a bit of a flagship, pointy end of the spear model, and it has rear wheel drive. This inconsistency could be hard to deal with - "all wheel drive is best for everyone all the time, except in this one case when RWD is best".

My wild-assed guess is that they will sell it for 2 years and at some point will realize that it undermines their greater efforts and the profits from it won't be enough in the long run to make it worth keeping it in the line-up. They will then drop it and the Scion/Toyota version will have to follow it because they will lose the volume needed to make it profitable.

I hope this doesn't happen as I love a lightish simple sports car.

dave

[eddief]

just thought it was an interesting concept with pretty across the board fab reviews all over the web. that's all i got. maybe Sub will benefit a bunch simply by bringing more people into the showrooms to look and if it is well balanced machine won't give a darn about AWD or not. time will tell and thanks to all of you who made contributions to the discussion...especially Louis. that guy knows how to accessorize a car! As for Scion, seems that brand is going the way of the Saturn.

[benb]

I don't see how people are badmouthing this.. I read it has an 18" high center of gravity... 18". :eek: That is amazing, it will handle like a go-kart. I think I read about the only other car that comes close is the Porsche Cayman.

Screw torque.. you can go fast on the highway in a V6 Accord or Camry or something. Not really that fun.

[rice rocket]

I don't see how people are badmouthing this.. I read it has an 18" high center of gravity... 18". :eek: That is amazing, it will handle like a go-kart.


The CG height is a nice marketing number for fanboys to rally around, but the S2k is 18.something inches as well. I bet an Elise would be lower, but that's still a different price category even used from when I last checked.

[eddief]

that is mentioned in the same sentence as a Porsche, not a mini exotic like a Lotus, and service locations are nearly ubiquitous. And it should be a available in reasonable volumes. S2K no mas...right?

The CG height is a nice marketing number for fanboys to rally around, but the S2k is 18.something inches as well. I bet an Elise would be lower, but that's still a different price category even used from when I last checked.

[rice rocket]

S2000 is out of production, yes, but they hold together pretty well. I leased an '06, friend of mine has an '02 with 135k miles on it, and it felt just as tight.

Not to mention the Honda motors are orders of magnitude more reliable than any Subaru boxer motor will ever be.

[pjm]

Should'a called it a Toyota Celica. Isn't there enough "3-letter" car names out there? (I know it's a Scion.)

[benb]

Ah Honda fans. We're always bitter that Honda has cancelled the (great) cars that we love.

The S2K is no more, there is no need to put down this new car. Besides they really aren't the same thing.. the S2K is a convertible.. and it is also way too small inside. It's not for everybody.

[tannhauser]

I think it looks like fun and look forward to trying one.

I wonder how Suby will deal with the marketing aspect of this car? For a very long time now they have been telling us that all-wheel drive is the best way to go and they have done very well with that corner of the market. Now - they have more of a sports car and a bit of a flagship, pointy end of the spear model, and it has rear wheel drive. This inconsistency could be hard to deal with - "all wheel drive is best for everyone all the time, except in this one case when RWD is best".

My wild-assed guess is that they will sell it for 2 years and at some point will realize that it undermines their greater efforts and the profits from it won't be enough in the long run to make it worth keeping it in the line-up. They will then drop it and the Scion/Toyota version will have to follow it because they will lose the volume needed to make it profitable.

I hope this doesn't happen as I love a lightish simple sports car.

dave

We are rare. Americans love torque, as was said. Can't see this newly-established sub-genre gaining footing to be profitable.

[Louis]

Ah Honda fans. We're always bitter that Honda has cancelled the (great) cars that we love.

How true. :mad::mad::mad:

[David Kirk]

We are rare. Americans love torque, as was said. Can't see this newly-established sub-genre gaining footing to be profitable.

I wonder if they want a piece of the Miata pie while at the same time being a bit cooler than the Miata with the younger driftier crowd?

I think the Miata succeeds for a number or reasons - and since it is the number one selling sports car of all time it would make sense to want even a small piece of that action.

I'm a reader and fan of a brit car magazine called 'EVO' and they recently tested the car in question and they ended up panning it pretty hard. In the end they said it didn't flow down the road as well as a Miata and didn't pull hard enough to compete with the more powerful RWD sports cars (think 370Z) out there. The chief reason was the later was the lack of torque.

This lack or low end grunt is also what made the S2000 a slower seller here in the states. You need to rev it hard and high to get the most out of it and 'we' don't seem to like that. Cars like the Elise are of course the same way but they are only really purchased by true enthusiast who don't mind reving it high to make progress. I must say I even like it. It pulls really hard between 6000 and 8500 rpms that's for sure. maybe this is because the USA is the land of the stoplight and much of the rest of the world has traffic circles where you can just keep rolling and don't feel the need for the car to pull hard from idle?

In the end I think for the car to make it in our market it will need more low end grunt and make the rear tires really work for a living. Until then it's a bit of a car looking for a niche. I'm guessing the aftermarket supercharger guys are burning the midnight oil designing kits for it.

dave

[goonster]

Should'a called it a Toyota Celica. Isn't there enough "3-letter" car names out there? (I know it's a Scion.)
It's called the Toyota 86 ("hachi roku"), which has a storied history within the marque. (The Scion badge is not used in Japan.)

I see it going the way of the SVX: great car, out of step with the rest of the Subaru lineup, ultimately failed to find a market.

[benb]

Well does Montana have curves?

I didn't get "torque" and such until 2005 when I went to Indianapolis for the USGP.. I remember getting a Monte Carlo rental car and the thing was the worst cornering/handling beast I've ever encountered.

But after 5 days in Indianapolis I realized I had not gone around a single curve in the road.. the only time that car had to turn was 90 degree intersections, most of which had a stoplight or a stop sign I was forced to stop at.

If you grew up your whole life with that of course all you'd care about was Torque.

[David Kirk]

Well does Montana have curves?

I didn't get "torque" and such until 2005 when I went to Indianapolis for the USGP.. I remember getting a Monte Carlo rental car and the thing was the worst cornering/handling beast I've ever encountered.

But after 5 days in Indianapolis I realized I had not gone around a single curve in the road.. the only time that car had to turn was 90 degree intersections, most of which had a stoplight or a stop sign I was forced to stop at.

If you grew up your whole life with that of course all you'd care about was Torque.

Thank goodness MT has lots of curves........and an autocross course is 98% curves. I like curves.

dave

[rice rocket]

Well does Montana have curves?

I didn't get "torque" and such until 2005 when I went to Indianapolis for the USGP.. I remember getting a Monte Carlo rental car and the thing was the worst cornering/handling beast I've ever encountered.

But after 5 days in Indianapolis I realized I had not gone around a single curve in the road.. the only time that car had to turn was 90 degree intersections, most of which had a stoplight or a stop sign I was forced to stop at.

If you grew up your whole life with that of course all you'd care about was Torque.

Screw torque, downshift.

[tannhauser]

I wonder if they want a piece of the Miata pie while at the same time being a bit cooler than the Miata with the younger driftier crowd?

I think the Miata succeeds for a number or reasons - and since it is the number one selling sports car of all time it would make sense to want even a small piece of that action.

I'm a reader and fan of a brit car magazine called 'EVO' and they recently tested the car in question and they ended up panning it pretty hard. In the end they said it didn't flow down the road as well as a Miata and didn't pull hard enough to compete with the more powerful RWD sports cars (think 370Z) out there. The chief reason was the later was the lack of torque.

This lack or low end grunt is also what made the S2000 a slower seller here in the states. You need to rev it hard and high to get the most out of it and 'we' don't seem to like that. Cars like the Elise are of course the same way but they are only really purchased by true enthusiast who don't mind reving it high to make progress. I must say I even like it. It pulls really hard between 6000 and 8500 rpms that's for sure. maybe this is because the USA is the land of the stoplight and much of the rest of the world has traffic circles where you can just keep rolling and don't feel the need for the car to pull hard from idle?

In the end I think for the car to make it in our market it will need more low end grunt and make the rear tires really work for a living. Until then it's a bit of a car looking for a niche. I'm guessing the aftermarket supercharger guys are burning the midnight oil designing kits for it.

dave

Around here, and most of our country, Miata means girl or fruity car. I used to have a Mazda mx3, great car, always got a lot of admiring glances in 91 from guys. The cultural associations with a hard top are different fro those of a soft ime. I have two Miatas and am messed with in such a way that driving my truck doesn't illicit. Something about size, torque and the American way I guess. The BRZ might have some macho street cred due to its silhouette too -- looks aggro and not "feminine", if you know what I'm saying.

Torque is awesome for everyday driving but guys like us who don't mind keeping the rpms up are kinda rare in this age of auto trannies. It's so easy to drive these big hp/torque monsters it's no fun for me.

Lots of people here have minis for their grunt and bmw dna. I drove an S, found it really nice but w/monster torque steer when you get on it.

I like the Brit rags because they're so opinionated -- not always right but not beholden to advertisers in the same way R&T, MT, etc. are. Of course the colorful language goes a long way towards entertainment.

Look, it's been warm here. Last night my wife, dog and I threw down the top and drove as slowly as possible to the ice cream parlor. There's no better car for driving slowly than a manual Miata...and hardly another for driving in a spirited way. I don't think the BRZ can touch a soft top's versatility in this way, though where it snows it's a different story.

[thwart]

Yep... the Miata is a special car. Wring it out without losing your license. I still miss my '94.

If this Scion/Subaru winds up being anywhere near that level of involvement and fun, it'll do very well.

Saw one yesterday while at our local Toyota dealer's 'Prius new owner meeting'. Silver, with the black and red racing seats. Sweet.

[dustyrider]

I hope the 2 door cars stick around but they certainly are a niche market in this growing community we call home. I really like the looks, and versatility, of hatchbacks, or three doors, I wish the 2 door Fiesta and the citroen C4, were available in the US market. I still see plenty of the Focus hatchbacks around so there must be a market, right? Maybe if the BRZ lasts Subaru can increase it's customer base by making a hatchback version.....

I don't think Subaru has too much to worry about in differentiation between AWD and RWD, it seems to me the customer looking at the BRZ has probably already owned a Subaru, and knows why the BRZ is appealing over the rest of the line-up. It's not like the BRZ is going to compete with the Outback's sales, it's a totally different customer base.

Personally I'm just glad Subaru has developed a smaller car, lately they've been following the trend of American's waist sizes. Heck, I'd lift my Impreza and buy the BRZ right now, for track days and mountain pass day trips, that is if I had the means to justify two cars, but I am a Subaru "fan boy."

All this talk of Miatas made me think of this local's passion:
YouTube:
LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHQV39jbKoI&list=PL5CE291280A2D6C8F&index=5&feature=plcp)

Just try calling one of Keith's cars feminine, and then watch him race one on the track!

[Hawker]

I've had two Miatas and have a '95 now. Two seater sports cars are an aquired taste here in the U.S. The Miata was orignailly made to appeal to the audience who missed the Triumph, MG and the other similar sports cars of the 60s and 70s. What made it a best seller was 50/50 balance, great handling, low price and to some extent the retro style and feel without the horrible British
repair record.

I have friend who has a three year old Corvette. Wicked fast...but he can't ever use it to the point where it is really taking advantage of what the car can do. The Miata on the other hand pulls enough Gs that it "feels" fast and frankly...on a curvy road it's much more fun than the 'vette.

It's always more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.

[rphetteplace]

tuners already have turbo'd the thing. There will be an STi model withing 2 years I'll bet.

[tannhauser]

maybe this is because the USA is the land of the stoplight and much of the rest of the world has traffic circles where you can just keep rolling and don't feel the need for the car to pull hard from idle?


Missed this...

Yeah, I think this is spot on. Think of American Graffiti.

[steampunk]

Read through a Motor Trend article on the BRZ and FR-S. Quite informative in outlining the differences between the two. The summary is that the FR-S is tuned for agility (better turn-in) and the BRZ is tuned for stability (better grip and exit).

Judging from the AE-86 roots it makes sense how Toyota/Scion would tune their version that way.

As far as tuning/styling I'm sure the subie heads will go all WRX on the BRZ, and the JDM freaks will go all JDM and turn the FR-S back in to a JDM Toyota GT 86.

[spacemen3]

Cute car, but I think I'll hang on to my old Evo. :)

[RacerJRP]

Didnt read through here, but living around the corner from Subaru NA, I have a few freinds that work in various depts. there. I got to drive in a pre-production BRZ about 10 months ago, and I have to say I was pleasantly surprised by the ride. Can't comment on build quality as everything was just plastic and had sharpie notes all over it, but it was nice looking and drove/ handled really well.

[eddief]

looked great just sitting there.

[ngilbert]

My friend just got one FRS and it is awesome. If you've never driven RWD before then it can be a great learner or just a fun commuter.

I will add that it can get a little squirrly (feel loose) about 112 though.

[ClutchCargo]

S2000 is out of production, yes, but they hold together pretty well. I leased an '06, friend of mine has an '02 with 135k miles on it, and it felt just as tight.

Not to mention the Honda motors are orders of magnitude more reliable than any Subaru boxer motor will ever be.

S2K's are (were) too whiney for my taste.
Not much fun keeping the rpm's way up there ll the time.