Ti and steel

[vaxn8r]

For those of you who have ridden both...say an a Csi or Atlanta and then a Legend (not ST just pure ti Legend), whats the diff? I know the Ottrott is definitely different than steel (those who have ridden both know what I mean). Is the Legend designed to ride more like the steel Serotta's or is it for exmaple, more comfortable, how is efficiency....? I've never ridden a Legend. I'm curious especially from those who have extensively ridden both.

FWIW, I feel my steel Atlanta is very stiff, efficient, but frankly a bit harsh. Too much road feel for my tastes.

DBRK, feel free to chime in because I know you've ridden multiple examples of each. Climb, you too. But I'm most curious about the "ride". I know the aesthetic implications.

[weisan]

a bit harsh. Too much road feel for my tastes.

Based solely on that comment, you might like the Legend. Go try it. And pls note, this goes beyond just the material.

[Samster]

If you're asking for Serotta specific comparisons, I can't help as I've never owned a ti Serotta. I have one in steel though, and a ti Merckx. I've also had a ti Sampson (which my wife now rides as a single speed around-the-towner).

From my viewpoint, my steel Serotta (which is a track layout, fixed gear) rattles a little more on rough roads, corners well (though you can't really evaluate fixed vs. road) and feels pretty "stiff." It reminds me of my first real frame (by Mike Melton back in the late 70s) in that it tracks well (no pun.) But I think a lot of this is due to the fork design, which is also steel.

The ti bikes I've owned feel more muted. No better or worse, but just less rattle when the pavement cracks come up. I've never had stiffness issues, though, since I ride a 50cm frame (CC). Overall, you can make a frame as harsh or as soft as you want in any material (within reason of course) but I'm no expert.

In the end, I just like ti, but for superficial reasons. Chipping paint just bums me out big time. That said, I've had my Serotta for 10 years and don't intend to get rid of it just yet. It's just too nice a bike. My Merckx will probably move to another owner before the Serotta does.

--sam

[Kurt]

I have owned both pretty much in the same size, both frames 58, both totally oversized and as stiff as serotta can make em. Csi was 2000, legend is a 2004, all ti, no carbon stays. The csi exhibits the same traits as many steel frames, it had a distinct bounce to the ride and that is what steel is real guys like about it. The ti is totally different, it rides as if its completely damped, very little road feel and feedback. Wheels of course have much to do about the ride, I use 32x velocity aeroheads front and rear and would describe the legends ride as plush. If is a very good frame for distance and base miles, esp over rough conditions and makes an ideal century frame, but is not what I would characterize a climbing frame, it feels heavy throwing it side to side compared to a 613 for example. Tubing shape and wheels make the ride, not the type of material imo.

[Fixed]

Bro I have had both and to me i.m.h.o. the legend rides like a steel bike i.m.h.o. Cheers :beer:

[FlaRider]

I owned a 2004 Legend Ti and sold it within months because I felt it was "too stiff" - ie, transmitted too much road shock when the road got bumpy or when I hit a pot hole. I subsequently purchased an IF Ti CJ, which, for me, represents the ideal Ti ride - comfortable, lively and sufficiently "stiff" for a training rig. That said, when racing, I opt for Alu or Carbon.

[flydhest]

I have a CSi and a Legend. They are both great. They are more similar than different. The Legend now has an AlphaQ fork on it. When it had an F1, the differences between the two bikes was even less dramatic.

These are size 60. The DT on my Legend is huge. It is a very stiff bike. I don't think one is more comfortable than the other. The Legend is a bit lighter, built, I think, a bit stiffer. It might be better suited for racing, but only by a bit. I might like the CSi ever-so-slightly more. The Legend has a very solid integrity feel to it, while the steel bike is a bit more springy and alive. I would describe neither as harsh.

[Big Dan]

I like road feel, usually wear no gloves so I can feel the road......

:banana:

crazy..I know........

[tch]

a steel Rivendell and a ti Serotta, so this is not really addressing your question and is more of an apples/oranges comparison. That said, I would say the ti bike is smoother, silkier, damp-er than the steel. I ride Mavic OP's on both bikes, tires pumped to same psi. The Concours glides on chip seal and the Rivendell rumbles.

You might like ti.

[David Kirk]

I've had a number of different Ti and steel Serottas. I personally prefer the steel bikes.

Since Ti is a good bit more flexible than steel, large diameter main tubes are used to keep the bike stiff. Unfortunately one can't use chainstays that are much larger in diameter that the norm due to space constraints. It feels to me that most Ti frames have front ends that are too stiff and rear ends that are too soft.

Since steel is a good bit stiffer than Ti it's easy to balance out and match the stiffnesses of the front and rear ends.

I fully realize that many folks out there feel that a huge down tube will make for a stiff BB but remember the down tube isn't the part of the bike that transfers force from the BB to the rear wheel.........it's of course the chainstays that take up this duty. One can, with proper tube diameters have a bike that both rides smoothly and has good BB stiffness and "jump".

Dave

[Climb01742]

One can, with proper tube diameters have a bike that both rides smoothly and has good BB stiffness and "jump".

Dave

dave, what factors impart "jump" to a frame? thanks.

[David Kirk]

Like the Goldilocks thing.........the rear end needs to be the proper stiffness for the rider and the use of the bike.

Dave

[FlaRider]

Dave,

Is a bike that feels "stiffer" (an alu bike with huge ovalized down tube and chainstays) but transmits more shock necessarily faster than a bike that feels "less stiff" and is therefore more comfortable? Assume bikes have identical geos. I've been riding a super-stiff Pinarello Dogma recently back to back against a comfortable ti frame and wonder if, in a racing context, the Dogma is in fact faster than the ti bike.

Thanks.

Rafael

[vaxn8r]

I like road feel, usually wear no gloves so I can feel the road......

:banana:

crazy..I know........
Dan, I also ride without gloves and I put in a lot of miles for someone with a full time job and family. Several >centuries per year, even a double century every year or so, many rides 75-90 miles. BUT, on none of these rides do I feel my Atlanta is appropriate. It feels great for about 35-40 miles, good for another 10-15, then the feet start to hurt, the arms hurt, thighs start aching, all presumably from the road shock.

I have no similar problems on any other bike I've ever ridden including CAAD7, other (older) ti, obviously CF, and even other steel bikes. That's why, specifically, I wanted to compare Serotta ti and Serotta steel.

Obviously my Atlanta is off the rack, and I'm 185 lbs, but it feels like this thing was built for someone, well, bigger. Any thoughts Dave Kirk?

[Ken Robb]

I've had various ti and steel bikes and one aluminum.
My comment has been that generally a good ti bike rides a lot like a good steel bike.
I had a Litespeed Natchez that was comfy and just a bit too flexy for me in size 59c-t. With both Ouzo Pro and Ouzo Comp forks it would wobble a bit at speeds in the mid 30 mph and up. This could be quelled by both knees to the top tube.
It did not wobble for anyone else who rode it. I have this problem with quite a few bike. I weigh about 200 lbs. nekkid.
My 58cm CSi and my 60cm Legend track like they are on rails. They are both stock bikes. F1 on CSi and O2 on Legend. I can't get any chain rub on either bike but the CSi is slightly stiffer feeling in the front end.

I think you can get Serotta or other fine builders to build a bike w/exactly the ride you want if you really know what that is. I'm guessing that some folks THINK they want a bike as stiff (racy?) as possible when they would really be happier with a bit more give. Maybe that's why so many of us keep trading bikes searching for the perfect one.

I also think we sometimes mistake a quick-handling bike that moves side-to-side when we put the hammer down with a bike that is actually covering the ground faster than one that is a bit slower-turning and more stable and so goes straight ahead on a smooth course. all that swerving we sometimes see has to scrub some speed, doesn't it?

[Keith A]

I have a CSi and Legend Ti that are almost the same size and geometry (the Legend it a 55 and the CSi a 54). The have the same exact group, wheelset, saddle, seatpost, F1 fork, and the only difference is that one has the Deda 215 shallow drop bars and the other has the Ritchey WCS Classic bars.

IMHO, I think there is a noticeable difference in the "feel" of the bikes. To me the Legend transmits more road vibrations that does my CSi. The CSi is a much smoother ride than the Legend. However, the handling of the bikes is a different story as they do feel almost exactly the same in this area. The Legend is indeed a lighter bike, but the CSi gets my vote.

[sg8357]

[QUOTE=Ken Robb]=snip=I think you can get Serotta or other fine builders to build a bike w/exactly the ride you want if you really know what that is. I'm guessing that some folks THINK they want a bike as stiff (racy?) as possible when they would really be happier with a bit more give. Maybe that's why so many of us keep trading bikes searching for the perfect one.[QUOTE]

Just tell Serotta you want a Titanium PX-10, then find a builder with
a stock of skinny Reynolds fork blades and have a fork built.
Ahh, the good old days when bikes were springy instead of bridge abutments
with wheels.

Scott G.
1970 Crescent Pepita, the best bike in the world!

[DRZRM]

I've never had a steel Serotta frame but I bought my Legend in 98 to replace a Pinarello SLX frame which I loved but was just feeling a bit dated and a bit abused. I rode the Merlin Untralight and some form of Litespeed and I chose the Serotta Legend because it felt like steel (crisp, on rails, not as flexy as the others) but was (and I'm not sure exactly how to describe this) just more comfortable over time. I've since had a chance to ride my buddy's Ottrott (even crisper) but I love my Legend and would not trade it for anything (though if I win the lottory I'll certainly expand the collection).

BTW, I'm 6'3" and 220, so I may flex a frame more than some. The only bike that ever came close to the Legend was a Seven Axiom, and I still prefer my ride.

Just my .02 cents :D

[ericspin]

Hey Keith, what wheelset are you riding on both bikes? Also, how would you compare the different bars? Sorry, I am not trying to hijack the thread.

[Keith A]

ericspin,

Up until about a week ago, both wheelsets are Excel Sports "Cirrus" which are OpenPro rims, Dura-Ace 9-speed hubs, DT Revolution spokes laced 2X on the front wheel and non-drive side rear with DT Competition spokes on the drive side laced 3x.

However, I just picked up a set of Mavic Reflex tubulars to try out and these are currently on the Legend and I only have one ride on them so far (I would usually have ridden these several times by now, but we had great waves for more than a week and I've only been on a bike once during this time :D )

As for the bars, they are very similar and the specs (weight, size and shape) are almost identical. However, my hands like the shape of the Deda's slightly better and I notice this more in the area from where the bars turn forward down towards the brake hoods. I know others on this board that have tried both and give a slight nod to the Ritcheys.

[CSi guy]

I currently own both a CSi and a Legend Ti Serotta. I would disagree with those who suggest the Ti frame seems to transmit more road shock to them than the CSi. Mine is not a carbon rear just Ti. I feel that Ti is a softer ride. The legend bike climbs well so it is NOT soft on the climbs. The Legend however has a carbon seat post and carbon fork and the CSi has a Ti seatpost and steel fork. I think those two differences are huge. I find myself riding the CSi however 90% of the time. I am going back to my old stomping grounds in Lawrence, KS for a 80 mile ride in early October and have decided to take the Legend because on the first day I rode it, I went 63 miles and didn't feel tired. The wheels of choice are Campy Neutrons (on both bikes) so with the carbon post,fork and wheels ...the legend TI is a sweet ride. I am sure my CSi will be mad when we leave. If I had to own just one the CSi would be my choice but the Ti frame does have a very comfortable feel.

[Keith A]

CSi guy -- A question for you…how is it possible for you to know if my Legend transmits more or less road shock than my CSi? Have you ridden both my bikes to know how they feel?

Do you think it is possible that some Legends (especially in smaller sizes) could be a bit overbuilt as dbrk has suggested in his reviews of the Legends he has ridden? Is it possible that David Kirk (a former Serotta bike builder) might know what he is talking about when he stated the following? "It feels to me that most Ti frames have front ends that are too stiff"

While it is certainly appropriate for you to state how your bikes feel to you. However, that doesn't make my or another persons’ opinion less valuable simply because you think you are right and everyone else is wrong. :no:

[flydhest]

Keith,

Maybe I'm in a punchy mood, but you sounded a bit testy. That's my job, darn it, and I won't have you poaching.

That said, how anyone can ride 63 miles at any reasonable speed and not be tired is beyond me.

[Keith A]

Maybe I'm in a punchy mood, but you sounded a bit testy. That's my job, darn it, and I won't have you poaching.
I guess that was a little bit testy. I felt like CSi_guy was telling me (since I'm the only one that made a direct compairson between the CSi and Legend and came to the wrong conclusion) that I was wrong about how my Serotta's felt to me and didn't appreciate it.

So flydhest, I'll try and avoid poaching on your turf in the future :D

[Eric E]

Before I ordered my custom Ti rapid tour, I tried 2000 stock versions of the Atlanta (steel) and Concours (Ti). There was a big difference - I felt like I was on springs with the Atlanta, which was fun but harsh when I rode over rough patch of ground or a mancover. The Concours had a much softer ride - smoother with less spring. I ended up with an oversized Ti rapid tour (first one was too flexible and speed wobbled - serotta replaced the frame) which, IMHO, is a good compromise. I still remember the steel springiness with great fondness, however...

Eric

[gasman]

Keith-
I don't think CSi guy was commenting on your bikes, only his impressions of his bikes. He just thinks Ti is a "softer" and that is not your impression.You and he disagree. I think so much of how we think a bike feels is subjective anyway. Let's just enjoy our wonderful bikes.
I'm going out on a ride now it's sunny and 70.

[Keith A]

gasman -- You indeed may very well be correct and maybe I read more into his statements than he intended. I guess I would have stated this a little differently.

[vaxn8r]

Thanks for all the replies. I am amazed at how variable the perceptions of Serotta ti. I wonder how many of those who feel their Legend is too stiff might have an F1 fork. We all know that fork was supposed to ride more like steel. Can Keith or Csi guy comment about their forks?

I've ridden two Merlin Extralights which are both from the 90's and are "real" Merlins. They definitely have a more muted, comfy ride than any steel I've ridden and maybe even more so than my Calfee, and yet both felt fairly efficient at the same time. It's been a while since I rode either but that was my recollection...that I liked them. IIRC they both were spec'd with Time forks.

[vaxn8r]

Keith, I just reread your earlier post. F1 on both. That would seem to take the fork out of the equation but maybe the fork is part of my issue with the Atlanta. I've always thought I preferred steel forks. On my Merkx I experimented with a CF fork for a while before reinstalling the original steel fork. My Masi has a beautiful flat crown steel fork. I could ride both those bikes all day.

Seems like it would be easy to just switch out forks on the Atlanta to see how it rides, but with it being a threaded set up I would then have to also buy a new headset and stem...probably run about $600. Yikes. The bike isn't worth a whole lot more than that. Well, it is to me personally, but not on the market. You guys know what I mean.

[Needs Help]

It's hard to believe anyone could read anything untoward in CSi guy's post.

[William]

The only comparison I can make is between my custom Steel Serotta vs. my extended ride on AR's Ti legend (since bikes in my size are few and far between). The first thing I noticed was the muted feel of the road. I rode his bike over a route that I am very familiar with and the Ti seemed really different then what I am used to feeling. As I said in my original post about the test ride, the words "Buttery Smooth" came into my mind. On the flip side, the Ti was not as stiff as my steel and I could easily induce rub out of the saddle. Even seated and really powering I could get it to flex. Long rides on steel have never bothered me, but I can see where the Ti would be easier on the body for long hauls. Even though AR's Legend is very close to my size, the tube sets would have to be much stiffer for my power & riding style.

William

[Tom]

Well, here's my take on it. I happen to have a CSi and a Legend and there are differences between them as ridden. CSi has a kestrel fork, mid-level Ksyriums and slightly different angles. Legend has ouzo pro fork, high end Ksyriums and its angle difference which is primarily a steeper seat tube.

The CSi definitely feels like its going faster, you know what road you're on. I've had many days on the Legend where I thought I was going slow but at the end the speedo told me otherwise. It doesn't give you the sensory feedback like the CSi does. The CSi is a beast on a short course, I think I can ride that thing faster through a reasonably flat 35 miles than I can the Legend but the Legend is definitely the bike for a very hilly day.

I could switch the wheels for a real comparison but hell, I'm a Serotta owner. When I want the tires pumped up I have the help do it or I take it into the shop.

[flydhest]

vax,

I have lots of miles on my Legend with an F1 and then with an AlphaQ. The AlphaQ is lighter and a bit more "nimble" for lack of a better word. The F1 is more solid and planted, like the steel fork on my CSi. That said, none of the feeling of stiffness comes from there. I don't see how a fork could make a frame feel more stiff. The road buzz or whatever is a bit different with the two forks, but not the stiffness of the frame.

[vaxn8r]

No, it's not a stiffness issue, maybe I'm saying it wrong. It's unconfortbale to ride the bike over distances aroound 50 miles or so. I wish some of you guys could ride it...or I could ride yours for comparison. It's road shock. Here's the best way to put it, if any of you used to ride Cannondales from the 80's into the mid 90's...that's the best way to describe how it feels to ride my Atlanta. Punishing.

I have a suspicion a CF fork could take some of the road shock out of the equation but I don't want to invest a bunch of money on bike which is new mileage-wise but 8 years old age-wise.

[flydhest]

vax,

I get you. I am the former owner of a late '80s Cannondale. It was my race rig (and only rig, actually) back in grad school and I only recently gave it up.

That said, I agree that the fork transmits a lot of the road sensation, but I can't in my wildest dreams imagine what it would take to have my Legend feel like my Cannondale. Or my CSi for that matter.

What size is your Atlanta?

[bcm119]

I've heard the Altanta described several times here and elsewhere as being "harsh", "buzzy" and "heavy", which is surprising, but I've never ridden one and many people seem to agree on this. In fact, I can't remember anyone raving about their Atlanta. I wonder if it isn't something inherent to just this model that gives it those characteristics? Have you compared it to any other high end steel bikes?

[vaxn8r]

BCM, no, nothing new anyways. Just my older steel bikes, which don't have that "quality". You do describe how it feels to me pretty well. What is puzzling is that the Atlanta was billed as being pretty much the same ride as the Csi with a slightly heavier tubeset. Maybe that is simply not a fair comparison and thus why I don't get what you all are saying about your Csi's.


Fly, The Atlanta is a stock 56 square.

[William]

Hey Vax,

It might be time to switch to those 28's to take the edge off. :D ;)



William ;)

[scottcw]

I have owned a Legend Ti, an Ottrott, and a Kirk Terraplane all with similar geometries and all built with the same components/wheels. As far as road hash/feel, I would rate them (best to worst):

Ottrott (very little road feel in the saddle or the bars)
Terraplane (almost no road feel in the saddle, quite a bit in the bars)
Legend Ti (quite a bit of road feel in the saddle, a little road feel in the bars)

I found that my butt and back were a lot more beat up after riding the Legend Ti than either the Terraplane or the Ottrott. The Terraplane transmits more road feel to my hands than either of the other two, but that is likely because of its steel fork instead of the Ouzo Pro and F3 that were on the Legend Ti and Ottrott.

[vaxn8r]

Hey Vax,

It might be time to switch to those 28's to take the edge off. :D ;)



William ;)
William, yeah, I've seriously thought of doing that but it obviously bugs me that I "have" to do it when I don't need to on any other bike I've owned.

And aren't those 28's really heavy? ;) ;)

To everyone. I truly appreciate everyone's thoughtful responses. Thank you all.

[jeffg]

No, it's not a stiffness issue, maybe I'm saying it wrong. It's unconfortbale to ride the bike over distances aroound 50 miles or so. I wish some of you guys could ride it...or I could ride yours for comparison. It's road shock. Here's the best way to put it, if any of you used to ride Cannondales from the 80's into the mid 90's...that's the best way to describe how it feels to ride my Atlanta. Punishing.

I have a suspicion a CF fork could take some of the road shock out of the equation but I don't want to invest a bunch of money on bike which is new mileage-wise but 8 years old age-wise.

I don't own a CSi, but I have ridden my Legend (with Ksyriums) on at least six double centuries and several gran fondos with lots of climbing. I certainly don't feel more beat up or disadvantaged on climbs versus my Parlee.

[weisan]

Hey guys...I am just wondering when we say "little road buzz"...is it the same thing as someone describing their carbonated bike having a 'dead wood' feelin'....which in that particular case is a good thing, isn't it? ie.

Little Road Buzz = Good
==> Dead Wood Feelin' = Little Road Buzz
==> Dead Wood Feelin' = Good ??!

:D

[Ivan]

I've never ridden a steel or Ti Serotta but I do own a steel and Ti LeMond both same size, welds, angles, steerer dia. and carbon forks. It's as 'apples to apples' as one can get and I have to say the ride quality/feel is about the same with the steel bike giving a slightly more 'buttery' feel to the ride.

The advantages for me (I lived along the coast) with Ti over steel is Ti's longevity and lightness. The later must ultimately have some effect on how the bike reacts to rider and road surface.

[Fixed]

William, yeah, I've seriously thought of doing that but it obviously bugs me that I "have" to do it when I don't need to on any other bike I've owned.

And aren't those 28's really heavy? ;) ;)

To everyone. I truly appreciate everyone's thoughtful responses. Thank you all.
Bro I use conti. 28's on my guerciotti with an op /da wheel do most of my sprint workouts on this setup tues and thurs nights. I ride tubulars on my Miele on fast club ride and races but the 28's are good once you get used to them their one tough pice of rubber if you lower tire presure it rides like a cadillac.i.m.h.o.Cheers :beer:

[vaxn8r]

Bro I use conti. 28's on my guerciotti with an op /da wheel do most of my sprint workouts on this setup tues and thurs nights. I ride tubulars on my Miele on fast club ride and races but the 28's are good once you get used to them their one tough pice of rubber if you lower tire presure it rides like a cadillac.i.m.h.o.Cheers :beer:
Do you like those Conti 28's? I used to use them on my tandem but found two problems. First they seemed to cut very easily. Second, they wore quickly. Like 700-800 miles on the rear. I since moved to Michelins and they last at least twice that long.

[Fixed]

Do you like those Conti 28's? I used to use them on my tandem but found two problems. First they seemed to cut very easily. Second, they wore quickly. Like 700-800 miles on the rear. I since moved to Michelins and they last at least twice that long.
Bro ya talkin to a messenger these are 1000 wire on's my local shop sells them to me for $9.00 each they wear like iron i.m.h.o. Cheers :beer:

[Bradford]

Do you like those Conti 28's? I used to use them on my tandem but found two problems. First they seemed to cut very easily. Second, they wore quickly. Like 700-800 miles on the rear. I since moved to Michelins and they last at least twice that long.

I ride GP 3000 25s on the road bike, Gatorskin 28s on the tandem, and Top Tour 28s on the touring bike (TT 35s when loaded), so I'm a wide Conti kind of guy. I like Contis, but you are right about them wearing fast. I get about 1,000 miles before I bail. But I love the way they ride and they have been very reliable for me over the last 10 years. They don't cut on me and I flat about once a year. (I run about 105 psi on all bikes).

I'm excited about the GP 4000 that just came out. If the marketing hype is not too far out of reality, they should feel nicer and last longer. If I were you, I'd try the GP 4000 700x25s and see how that does you. (And post how they feel if you do).

I just threw on some 700x25 TriComps today that I had on a back up set of wheels. They are nice tires; ride pretty well and look great. If they are anything like other Vreds I've had, they will work just fine but not last all that long. I have about 150 miles on these tires and they already have a cut and I've flatted once. I'm hoping that I'll have better luck and they will last me until I switch back to the touring bike for the winter.

[NateM]

Vax
I have a 57cm stock Legend and a 56cm stock Atlanta,both wear F1 threaded forks. I swap a set of Helium clinchers between the 2 bikes with a 26mm Performance Forte Kevlar on the front and a 28mm Ruffy Tuffy on rear.Tire pressure is 90 F and 95 R, I weigh 145lbs. The Atlanta is a stiffer overall frameset and transmits more road buzz.It is also heavier which I feel when accelerating and on the climbs. The Legend has a muted feeling common with good Ti,absorbs the small bumps and imperfections, but suffers from a less than stiff front end.The bike was made in 95 and has a very lite top tube.I like the way it climbs but dont trust it on fast descents.Above 46 mph it can develop very serious shimmy.
I have ridden a friends 57cm stock CSI with steel fork and the ride was memorable,lively,lots of snap when I pushed hard, but most impressive was the handling downhill. The stock Atlanta steel fork transmits too much road buzz and shock on small bumps for my likings,that and its heavier guage top tube may be what makes it a little rougher than the CSI. Putting a carbon fork on it helped as would a better steel fork. I can only imagine what a newer Legend would ride like, it might be my choice if I could afford it. Hope some of my rambling helps answer your question

[slowgoing]

What is puzzling is that the Atlanta was billed as being pretty much the same ride as the Csi with a slightly heavier tubeset. Maybe that is simply not a fair comparison and thus why I don't get what you all are saying about your Csi's.

Vax, I think it's your steel fork on the Atlanta that's giving you problems. I have an Atlanta and a CSI, both with F1 forks. They both ride great, with the edge going to the Atlanta. No problem going over 50 miles on it either.

If you want a smooth riding steel fork, see if you can find one off of a Merckx MX Leader.

[Jeff N.]

Between my Seven Axion Ti and my Seven Axiom Steel ( for example) the only difference I can tell is that my Axiom Steel seems a bit heavier.........because it IS, I suppose. Jeff N.