Do New Drive Train Designs Actually Shift Better?

[CSI Man]

I've ridden over 10 years on a couple of bikes that have Ultegra 6500 9-speed drive trains. The shifting has always been quick and precise. But recently I have read some reviews and seen some promotional videos for the 6700 drive train components which tout new ramps on the chainrings and asymmetrical links on the chains among other changes.

This got me to wondering if there really is much difference in shifting quality (other than 10-speed vs. 9-speed) with these supposed improvements or is it all just marketing hype. Those of you who have used both, what do you think?

CSI Man

[majorpat]

I'm no retro grouch and have both 10 speed STI and 9 speed DT shifters. The DT's shift better, man.

[bfd]

I've ridden over 10 years on a couple of bikes that have Ultegra 6500 9-speed drive trains. The shifting has always been quick and precise. But recently I have read some reviews and seen some promotional videos for the 6700 drive train components which tout new ramps on the chainrings and asymmetrical links on the chains among other changes.

This got me to wondering if there really is much difference in shifting quality (other than 10-speed vs. 9-speed) with these supposed improvements or is it all just marketing hype. Those of you who have used both, what do you think?

CSI Man

Agree. I was on a ride with a couple of guys yesterday on the latest stuff. Both had Sram Red and one guy was on a 58cm S-Works that weighed in at 15lb. Very nice and definitely light! They told me that I needed to upgrade my 15 year old Calfee with Record 9 to the latest stuff as it had superior shifting and "interface" (yes, that word was used!) over my "old-school" granny bike. My calfee weighs in at about 17lb versus their 15lb bikes or 2lb difference.

As for shifting, I know one of my friends complains about the horrible front shifting of his Sram Red ft der. He's now using a Force ft der (I guess its the "upgrade") and is going to get the latest 2012 Sram Red ft der with "Yaw control" or whatever they call it. In contrast, my Campy ft shifting with its ratcheting ft shifter is the smoothest, easiest ft shifter I've ever used....

Haha, they were both faster than me on the climbs! I was definitely behind them and in a world of hurt, but I attribute that more to their riding and being in shape more than the bike. YMMV, Good Luck!

[Bob Loblaw]

I think Shimano took a step backward with 6700. By routing the cables under the bar tape, they went from one gradual bend to the downtube stop to three tight ones. It dramatically increased cable friction, which leads to slightly less precise shifting.

I have a lot of miles in Shimano 9 speed setups. IMO that is excellent technology and you have nothing to gain by upgrading except a 16 tooth cog.

BL

[benb]

I have plenty of time on Ultegra 9 and Ultegra 10 (6600) and I can't say I can recall much of a difference in shift quality. I did manage to break one of the Ultegra 9-speed shifters though, and I have yet to do that with 10-speed, so that is a plus but I don't consider it significant. Never broke anything else except that one shifter though.

I rode D/A 9-speed one season though and thought that was better then either of the Ultegra groups I've had.

I also had SRAM Rival (10-speed) for 2 years.. I'd put it below all the Shimano groups I've had including 105 9-speed. It doesn't hurt that the 105 lasted about 5x as many miles as the rival stuff did. After 2 years I had broken numerous components on that group.. I tossed the 105 after 5 years of problem free operation.

I don't keep good enough records but as far as I can tell all the 10-speed groups have chewed through chains & cassettes quite a bit faster then 9-speed did. I would buy 9-speed again if they offered it at the same "level" as the 10-speed.

[Chance]

I have a lot of miles in Shimano 9 speed setups. IMO that is excellent technology and you have nothing to gain by upgrading except a 16 tooth cog.

BL

My 9-speed Ultegra already has a 16T.;)

Will not upgrade that bike until most of it wears out. No need to. Works good enough for my needs.

[jpw]

Front shifting is improved.

[rice rocket]

I think Shimano took a step backward with 6700. By routing the cables under the bar tape, they went from one gradual bend to the downtube stop to three tight ones. It dramatically increased cable friction, which leads to slightly less precise shifting.

I have a lot of miles in Shimano 9 speed setups. IMO that is excellent technology and you have nothing to gain by upgrading except a 16 tooth cog.

BL

My shop recommended some Gore sealed teflon cables, and it seems to have brought it at or very near my 7800 shift quality.


There's another brand that gets tosses around too, Yokozuna or something?

[phcollard]

Front shifting is improved.

That's what I would say as well. I don't notice a huge improvement in rear shifting 9s vs 10s but front shifting with a recent Campy crankset... Oh My... Instant. I don't see how it could get better.

[oldpotatoe]

Agree. I was on a ride with a couple of guys yesterday on the latest stuff. Both had Sram Red and one guy was on a 58cm S-Works that weighed in at 15lb. Very nice and definitely light! They told me that I needed to upgrade my 15 year old Calfee with Record 9 to the latest stuff as it had superior shifting and "interface" (yes, that word was used!) over my "old-school" granny bike. My calfee weighs in at about 17lb versus their 15lb bikes or 2lb difference.

As for shifting, I know one of my friends complains about the horrible front shifting of his Sram Red ft der. He's now using a Force ft der (I guess its the "upgrade") and is going to get the latest 2012 Sram Red ft der with "Yaw control" or whatever they call it. In contrast, my Campy ft shifting with its ratcheting ft shifter is the smoothest, easiest ft shifter I've ever used....

Haha, they were both faster than me on the climbs! I was definitely behind them and in a world of hurt, but I attribute that more to their riding and being in shape more than the bike. YMMV, Good Luck!

Those 2 guys are the marketeer's dream.

It ain't about the bike..

"Eddy can win on my bike but I can't win on his".

[carlineng]

I think Shimano took a step backward with 6700. By routing the cables under the bar tape, they went from one gradual bend to the downtube stop to three tight ones. It dramatically increased cable friction, which leads to slightly less precise shifting.

I have a lot of miles in Shimano 9 speed setups. IMO that is excellent technology and you have nothing to gain by upgrading except a 16 tooth cog.

BL

I see this reasoning cited a lot, but both SRAM and Campy route shifter cables under bartape, and I rarely hear complaints about high cable friction in either of their systems :confused: What gives?

[smead]

I'm no retro grouch and have both 10 speed STI and 9 speed DT shifters. The DT's shift better, man.

I recently built up a vintage frameset w/ DA 7900 DT shifters, and DA 7800 RD and cassette. This is the smoothest, fastest, crispest shifting setup I've ever felt. I attribute a little of that to the quality of the 7800 rear drivetrain, but the majority comes from the DT shifters. I've used DA 7700 downtube shifters on other builds and they are similarly wonderful. It is amazing how slick shifting is w/o any cable housing (sans the tiny loop on the RD), and about half the length of cable. And weight weenies can even get on board - the 7700-7900 DT shifters are about 75 grams, plus the weight you save w/ less cable and no housing, pair w/ quality lightweight brake levers and you have a better shifting/lighter setup than the latest brifters. And endless FD trimming is icing on the cake :banana:

Just don't try to use that DT setup in a crit sprint :eek:

[vav]

^ Thanks!! I have an older Serotta frame and I have been wondering if worth to do the set up you just described.
FWIW I have 2 Cervelos, 1 with 6500 9 speed and I like the shifting better than my second Cervelo with 6700 10 speed

[SteveV0983]

I had Ultegra 6500 for years and upgraded to 6600 2 years ago because I wanted the 10 speed drivetrain and I think 6600 is excellent. I'm in the process of waiting for a new frame and am going to do a completely new build except for the fact that I'm moving all of the 6600 over. I considered 6700 and did test ride it for a lengthy ride and found 2 problems with it. First, there definitely is a little more friction in the shifting - I assume this is because of the under the bar tape routing. Second, I do not like the fact that 6700 only allows you to do 2 downshifts in a full swing of the outer lever while 6600 and 6500 allowed 3. I happen to like the 3.
I also had a demo bike for a week that had 2011 SRAM Force on it and it was my first experience with SRAM. I took to the double-tap quicker than I thought I would, but I still found Ultegra smoother and quieter, and SRAM does not allow any front derailleur trim on the small chain ring. So for what it's worth, to me, all of these "new" and "improved" groups haven't made me want to give up 6600. Newer isn't necessarily better.

[wallymann]

...yes!

[Gummee]

IMO Shimano's gone the wrong way: lighter clicks and less feel in the shifting.

My personal benchmark for awesome shifting were Sachs Ergos followed very closely by D/A 7700.

If you need to change out for newer Shimano parts, do it reluctantly.

Unlike the other guys out there, I like the 'chunk' that the SRAM stuff makes when it shifts. ...and if you run a D/A ft der. there's no wonky shifting up front either! (or Force if you want to stay all SRAM)

M

[bigbill]

I started with campy NR and was happy. My next bike was a Raleigh with 8 speed DA SIS with downtube shifters. It was cool to reach down, shift, and be done with it, no overshift and back. Next came STI levers on the existing 8S drivetrain and it was nice to keep my hands on the bars but it also changed the way I sprinted. Now I could think about what gear to start in and where I wanted to end up. Before, I would punch it in a 53-15, build up speed, and then shove it over into the 12. I don't know if it was better with STI.

Next came ergo and my change to campy. It worked as well as STI but it fit my hand better. The DA brakes were better than the Chorus ones. I went from 9 speed to 10 while living in pancake flat VA Beach so it wasn't life changing. I still didn't have a use for the 11.

Now I have 11 speed and I love it. I have a 12-27 cassette with a standard crankset and I have every gear I need with relatively close ratios. If shifts as well as 10 or 9 but is more finicky. Set up properly, it's excellent.

[oldpotatoe]

I see this reasoning cited a lot, but both SRAM and Campy route shifter cables under bartape, and I rarely hear complaints about high cable friction in either of their systems :confused: What gives?

6700, 5700 and 7900 work just fine, in spite of under the bar routing. The higher drag gig is overplayed, IMHO. If set up right, it works just fine.

[Ken Robb]

I have Campy and Shimano 9 and 10 speed stuff. They are all good. My 9 speed Ultegra triple upshifts so fast/smooth at the front that I don't feel the shift itself. I just feel that I am suddenly turning a harder gear. This is on my Rambouillet which has 44.5cm chainstays. I think long stays help triples shift well. OTOH when I use other than 52-42-30 Ultegra cranks (48-38-28) it requires a shift and a half-click trim to get to the middle ring whereas my Campy allows me to add clicks until I'm centered on the middle ring.

[pdmtong]

My 2011 C11 bike with 500 miles shifts lighter and smoother than the bike with 2007 R10 with 4000 miles or the one with 2008 C10 bike and 3k miles.

My C10 has yet to approach either group in terms of smoothness

I see no reason to upgrade my 10 to 11 unless someone is covering the $ delta, but for new builds its 11sp all the way.

[Bob Loblaw]

It does apply to all bikes with under the tape routing.

I have two bikes, one with Ultegra 6600 shifters driving DA derailers and one with Campy Record 10. They both have the same cables installed with square cut ends and the same lubricant. They both shift extremely well.

However.

The Campy bike is much more sensitive to changes in temperature, humidity, and rain. To keep the shifting 100% flawless, it requires more attention. I make one or two small adjustments on the fly on rides that start in the early morning and end in the afternoon.

The shifting on the Ultegra bike, with the cables arcing gently through space between the shifter and downtube stops, is relentlessly, effortlessly perfect.

The difference is small and I admit I am very OCD about my drivetrain, and I am not changing out the Campy...it is excellent. But IMO shifting technology peaked with DA 7800, and then form won out over function.

BL

I see this reasoning cited a lot, but both SRAM and Campy route shifter cables under bartape, and I rarely hear complaints about high cable friction in either of their systems :confused: What gives?

[Grant McLean]

But IMO shifting technology peaked with DA 7800, and then form won out over function.

BL

I think personal preferences are interesting, and how different people
think the best approach to what shifting should feel like.

In my opinion, 7800 is the worst feeling lever ever. It's so soft, the clicks
have no real resistance it feels vague and mushy. Yuck. I like a nice solid
"CHUNK" when the lever moves. Stiffer the better. Fortunately, shimano
made the 7900 levers feel more positive, and the clicks are much better
defined than 7800, or i'd still be riding campagnolo. 7800 - you can keep it.

My 7700 down tube shifters you can hear click from 2km's away. They are
awesome!

-g

[deechee]

Funny, I was just thinking how much I love the front shifting on 6600 ultegra with my fsa k-force compact. Compared to the 9 speed ultegra before it with the compact fsa compact gossamer crank, its way better. I'm not sure if this is due to the bb, crank or front derailleur.

Similarly, between my 9 speed ultegra tri-bike and 10 speed dura-ace 7800 tri setup with bar-end shifters, the 7800 was much, much faster and crisper in front. I learned to appreciate why some of you love those down tube shifters so much.

For mountain I thought 7 speed was better than 8 but that was a long time ago. I haven't really put my XTC in really muddy conditions so I can't say how the 9 speed performs. Drivetrain aide, hydraulic brakes are worth every bit of hype they get. I can't imagine ever going back to cantis or v-brakes for mountain.

[jr59]

...yes!


I can't spear of super record, but i do have 1 bike with record, one with chours, and one with Athena, all 11 speed.

Truth be told, the Athena shifts better than all of them.
I can't figure it out. I've traded groups on bikes, traded wheels and cables.

All work very good, but the Athena group I have is just butter. Just plain works and keeps working.

I thought it was me, so I had my LBS swap groups and tape over the shifters and d-rails. After a week, I picked which one shifted best. Remove tape....Athena!

Strange!

[Grant McLean]

Truth be told, the Athena shifts better than all of them


I struggle to understand what an individual means when the word "better"
is used without description. What does it mean?

Some assumptions about what "better" is are more universal than others:

faster, smoother, quicker, quieter, free of adjustment

Others are debatable:
'weight' of the lever action, positiveness, amount of lever feedback,
lever shape/position, location of the shift mechanism on the lever body,

i'm sure there are others... but to get back to the original question raised
in this thread: How important is 'better' shifting when all index systems
change gears when you push the button? not really too much. People only
develop preferences in relation to other systems they've tried. If you had
only ever used one type, you'd have nothing to compare the experience to.

-g

[Ken Robb]

I struggle to understand what an individual means when the word "better"
is used without description. What does it mean?

Some assumptions about what "better" is are more universal than others:

faster, smoother, quicker, quieter, free of adjustment

Others are debatable:
'weight' of the lever action, positiveness, amount of lever feedback,
lever shape/position, location of the shift mechanism on the lever body,

i'm sure there are others... but to get back to the original question raised
in this thread: How important is 'better' shifting when all index systems
change gears when you push the button? not really too much. People only
develop preferences in relation to other systems they've tried. If you had
only ever used one type, you'd have nothing to compare the experience to.

-g

yeah, what Grant said.

[cmbicycles]

with these supposed improvements or is it all just marketing hype. Those of you who have used both, what do you think?

CSI Man

It is probably very good marketing. You should get good results regardless of "age" or brand of the components if it is set up properly. But we all have our preferences regardless

[Ralph]

I think a lot of this great shifting improvement we have seen in the last 10-15 years comes from the vastly improved ramps amd pins on the chainrings and cassette cogs, more so than the shifters and derailleurs.

[professerr]

I recently built up a vintage frameset w/ DA 7900 DT shifters, and DA 7800 RD and cassette. This is the smoothest, fastest, crispest shifting setup I've ever felt. I attribute a little of that to the quality of the 7800 rear drivetrain, but the majority comes from the DT shifters. I've used DA 7700 downtube shifters on other builds and they are similarly wonderful. It is amazing how slick shifting is w/o any cable housing (sans the tiny loop on the RD), and about half the length of cable. And weight weenies can even get on board - the 7700-7900 DT shifters are about 75 grams, plus the weight you save w/ less cable and no housing, pair w/ quality lightweight brake levers and you have a better shifting/lighter setup than the latest brifters. And endless FD trimming is icing on the cake :banana:

Just don't try to use that DT setup in a crit sprint :eek:

Dura Ace DT shifters for me too. 10 speed Shimano cassette, 10 speed Record in front. Very slick and clean shifting, simple and durable. Excellent, except for racing. SRAM levers if you want modern ergonomics.

[ultraman6970]

Remember when I was using 5 then 6 and then 7 DT shifters in friction mode I never got a single problem with them, I never liked the indexing because was just too dumb for the type of riding i was using, the other factor was that everybody in the peloton knew what i was going to do because of the darn click click click sound that many people that couldn't figured it out how to shift right using friction thought was marvelous.

That said... materials and production methods have changed a lot compared with 30 years ago and obviously the new stuff will shift better but it depends on what are u comparing to. I never got problem with 105 and campagnolo super record 25 years ago using it in friction mode. To me shifting was pretty fast and reliable, the new stuff shifts the same IMO. The only difference is that now we have 10 and 11 speed groups and now maintenance needs to be done yes or yes, with friction did not matter that much after all if the cable was stretched a tiny bit you needed to move the lever a tiny bit more, not big deal.

You can have the best in the market but always a moron will figure it out how to damage it or how to shift wrong with the stuff, there are guys that no matter what they use they always have problems. Guys that tells you to move to the new stuff is because probably they got a really bad experience with the previous models but sincerely for the type of riding like 99% of the population does... 6 speeds is more than enough.

A clear example, that medium old guy that is using a miyata or a shogun 5 speed mint with all the old stuff, a 30 pounds bike and nobody in the group you go is able to get rid off of him no matter how fast they go :D

[Chris]

I think the 7900 stuff works fine. My only complaint has been that several of front sti levers have had an annoying rattle. A noisy bike is the worst.

[rounder]

I had 7-speed Ultegra with down-tube shifters on my old bike. Went to 8-speed duraace with down tube shifters. The shiftintg felt better beacause it was duraace, but it still felt good.

Then. went to campy 10-speed on the same bike. The satisfying clicking from down-tube shifting was gone. But it was replaced by 10-speed shift whenever you like. What ended up happening was a changeover from shimano to campy. You can't ease on in...you jump in with eyes closed. Anyway, after that, campy was fine and there were no problems. I ain't going back to shimano. It is not just about the shifting. For me, it is about the philosophy and heritage.

[cachagua]

Everybody likes the way downtube levers shift, they just don't like reaching for them.

I didn't either, so I started mounting them upside down on the inside of the brake lever body. As many shifts as I want at a time, robust and long-lasting, always precise, cables under the tape... and cheap! Because I can't count any higher, I'm stuck with 8-speed, but I don't suppose there's any barrier to doing the same thing for 9, 10, 11, or the new 45-cog rear end they're planning... oh, forgot, no downtube shifters for that: it's gonna have voice command.

The way I look at things, the public admission that STI was fiddly and unreliable was the in-line cable adjuster. ;-)

[carlineng]

I didn't either, so I started mounting them upside down on the inside of the brake lever body.

Wah? Pics please!

[nbrewste]

Have you seen this setup? Those are DT shifters on some mount below the brake levers.

Not too attractive, but reliable, I guess.

From Budd Bicycle Works here in New England.

[majorpat]

Those thimagoobs probably work fine but they smack of crazy eyed bearded guy hollering about the sky falling or some such nonsense as he tools around in cutoff jean shorts and a tie-dye.

[cachagua]

I don't have a beard or a tie-dyed T-shirt, although I do ride in cutoffs sometimes... But those actually look kinda tasty to me! I might try to build a pair.

Mine are fairly similar, except instead of a little under the brake, they're on them -- on the lever body itself, low and close to the bar. They're upside down so the swing of the lever is from about 8 o'clock to about 4, and I pull them toward me to shift into larger cogs (or big ring), whereas it looks like these are exactly the reverse. And instead of the band and post-mount those use, I just put a modified downtube braze-on on the lever body, and mount a cable housing stop (the cable emerges going upwards, and tucks under the tape) and the lever itself.

I'm no good with photos... capt.stash posted a shot of mine some time last fall, but I couldn't tell you where it is now.

[carlineng]

Hmm, I see. Not my flavor. I think the Retroshift ones look a lot better, but those require specially modded brake levers/mounts.

[tbike4]

8 speed with Suntour Barcons. Easy and cheap.