How over-rated are the Schlecks? [Archive]

slidey

05-20-2012, 02:08 PM

Well, Andy has a TdF victory 'cause the Benelux chef laced the spanish beef or something like that (read, a credit with no credit) but in all seriousness there's something lacking with the brothers. In my opinion, they're just not winning material, that's not to say they're not damn fine riders, but to be the winner of any grand tour you need just that much more...Cadel showed true grit in winning last year's TdF single handedly, Contador kicked ass in last year's Giro (Etna) and showed his pedigree as a champion climber, Merckx...well, Merckx raced and we watched enraptured. However, I can't think of anything notable that the Schleck's (mostly Andy, 'cause Frank < Andy) have done to deserve being called potential tour winners. From where I stand, Andy has consistently shown that he's not comfortable being pushed to the limit and that strategy isn't his forte.

However, I'll say this...I was massively impressed by Andy's new & improved descending skills!

So what makes some of you inevitable Schleck believers, believe?

FlashUNC

05-20-2012, 02:11 PM

I'm not counting them out solely because Cuddles had about the worst reputation for a good long while. And even he managed to turn that around.

binxnyrwarrsoul

05-20-2012, 02:42 PM

IMO, Andy has Frank's aspirations on his mind, when the only thing on his mind should be winning the race.

Rueda Tropical

05-20-2012, 02:44 PM

Sounds like Bruyneel is none to pleased with them. By the time the Tour rolls around it should be a full scale war. It's to bad for all the others on the team that this probably won't end well which will have an impact on them as well.

http://sport.rtl.lu/cyclissem/news/248245.html

"This morning at breakfast I could already see that his morale was not very high (...) but I had the impression that his physical condition was good enough to stay with the best, and I repeat: the withdrawal was a surprise to me."

Do you think he did it to prepare better for the Tour de France?

"Listen ... I hope not. In any case it was not the team's objective that Fr�nk come to the Giro to prepare the Tour, not at all even."

Do you plan with him for the Tour?

"He will now do the Tour of Luxembourg and the Tour de Suisse, after that we see"

Grant McLean

05-20-2012, 03:08 PM

I'll just say what i'm sure lots of people are thinking:
Andy and Frank stopped doping, and now racing at the top isn't in the cards.

Lots of other riders are in the same situation. Basso? A shadow of his
former turbo-charged self. Get used to it, as more and more
teams are no longer going to run a medical enhancement program,
there will be some faces that never return to the front in the same way
as "the glory days".

-g

ultraman6970

05-20-2012, 03:14 PM

When i read this sucker quit I was... ***?? Looks like he dislocated his shoulder that day when he got problems with rasmussen. How in the world you could dislocate a shoulder and then finish the stage?? The thing came out and then they put it back in place and then he continued racing?? A person with that kind of lesion just stops riding right away... a lie for the press maybe?

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/532845/schleck-struggles-on-with-dislocated-shoulder.html

Would love to know what bruyneel has to say the day he gets rid off of them, because im sure he is not used to have wimps in his team. I was JB i would feel like i'm stuck with the dynamic duo.

This year tour will be won by somebody else, BMC team is just bad and Cadel doubt is even close to be in form. Rodriguez maybe??? The colombian from team sky is riding pretty good as well.

But the shcreck bros i doubt it.

slidey

05-20-2012, 03:35 PM

Wow, there's something I didn't know.

To segue into murkier waters slightly, I think you've hit the nail on the head, medical enhancement as opposed to doping (I'm laughing at the obvious pun in the Omega-Pharma + Tom Boonen's quickstep). Personally I don't like labeling an athlete a doper based on one drug test as I have no way of knowing the circumstances...as in, it's a binary that an athlete has drugs in the system or not but how it found it's place there depends entirely on circumstances. When medical research carried out by a team reveals some hitherto unheard of concoction then the riders will take it, but when it's found to elevate performance by way too much those substances will also come under the scanner and eventually be banned. It's a very fine line between pick-me-up energy drink mixes and pick-me-up-and-breakaway mixes and these lab expts could make athletes hero's or villains very quickly.

Case in point, Contador! I feel sorry for him after his 2011 Giro performance. I wasn't a fan or a disser before but am a fan after I watched the above-mentioned performance. That's one race he'd have definitely been racing clean and to be under such tremendous hostility from every side possible and to then decimate the field with such prowess shows some fine character.

I guess the measure of a true athlete is when they've achieved revenge by redemption, which in my opinion was reached once already by AC, not yet it'd seem by the Schleck's.

I'll just say what i'm sure lots of people are thinking:
Andy and Frank stopped doping, and now racing at the top isn't in the cards.

Lots of other riders are in the same situation. Basso? A shadow of his
former turbo-charged self. Get used to it, as more and more
teams are no longer going to run a medical enhancement program,
there will be some faces that never return to the front in the same way
as "the glory days".

-g

jpw

05-20-2012, 03:36 PM

The Schlecks are good riders either not in form or no longer juiced up. It's a major assumption to make to say that they were previously successful because they were juiced. However, we see a theme at Saxo with Riis and now Bertie.

The Tour will be interesting, and open.

slidey

05-20-2012, 03:44 PM

Since we're doing predictions I'm going to stay away from it for now...except say this - Cadel Evans seemed in scarily, terrifying form at the Criterium International eariler this year. Of course, a smart athlete only looks as good as the competition and Cadel is as witty as he's gritty so I'm not going to write him off.

But, GreenEdge...what a lovely team they are...full of spirit and sportsmanship! I love this team and hope they win a few stages at TdF...watch out for the Oz powerhouse.

This year tour will be won by somebody else, BMC team is just bad and Cadel doubt is even close to be in form. Rodriguez maybe??? The colombian from team sky is riding pretty good as well.

But the shcreck bros i doubt it.

tiretrax

05-20-2012, 06:24 PM

Andy's problem is Frank, and Frank's problem is Andy. Look how much better he rode once Frank was out of the 2010 TDF. How about the L-B-L that they should have had in the bag in 2008 or 2009? When they get so into bringing along the other, they both lose. Lance Armstrong tried to explain that to Andy in 2009 when he tried to recruit him for Radio Shack.

I find it hard to believe Contador raced clean at last year's Giro even if he was under suspicion of doping. Maybe for the TDF, and that's why he fell flat.

Cuddles will repeat in July.

GuyGadois

05-21-2012, 01:31 AM

I don't think you can win the Tour if you can't put in a good time trial. Depending on the year and how many TTs there are will determine how high they will get.

GG

rustychisel

05-21-2012, 02:06 AM

OP - I think you answered your own question in the first two sentences... they're damn fine riders, both of them. BUT - they're mentally suspect, a little frail at times, usually when under pressure.

benitosan1972

05-21-2012, 07:51 AM

I'm still a fan of Andy, winner maybe not, loser definitely not, overrated not.

PQJ

05-21-2012, 08:32 AM

I'm not counting them out solely because Cuddles had about the worst reputation for a good long while. And even he managed to turn that around.

For a long, long time, Cuddles had no team support of any kind. He always seemed to find himself on a team dedicated to sprinters, to his great detriment. He is and was also likely clean. If Cuddles had had the team support that the Schlecks have had the past few years, and/or if Cuddles had been taking the same nutritional supplements the Schlecks were taking, Cuddles would likely have won more than a few grand tours already.

tiretrax

05-21-2012, 08:53 AM

nutritional supplements
Is nutritional supplements a synonym for doping? I have never heard nor read of the Schlecks being suspected of doping. If they doped while on CSC and Saxo Bank, why weren't they stacking up the wins then?

Their height/weight ratio is off the charts.

GuyGadois got it right - their TT ability is such a weakness. It's probably more mental than physical. Don't forget the great TT performance Andy had in Bourdeaux at the end of the 2010 TDF. He was barely off the pace or the same as Dirty Bertie, who is regarded as very good in TT.

veloduffer

05-21-2012, 09:00 AM

It's still too early to make the call on Andy, he's only 27 yrs old and entering the typical prime years for a pro cyclist (Frank is 32). Winning takes experience, good form and luck. Being on the TdF podium a few times is not being overrated - he's not finishing mid-peleton!

I don't think the Schlecks are juicing either. They're performing like you'd think, good climbers and not good time trialists. Look at their build -- both are over 6' tall and weigh only 150-160 lbs, which lends itself to good climbing (besides genes). I think if they had juiced, they'd have better TT results.

don'TreadOnMe

05-21-2012, 11:14 AM

They are trying to get away from the Bruyneel bus @ this point.
Hog was supposed to be in Cali, remember? BIG race for RSNT.
Instead he boogied out of dodge, to the Giro, bringing all kinds of bad juju, AND then Frank quits.

Not looking good for that team...

All that said, the Schlecks are great bike racers, but not super-human.

Fixed

05-21-2012, 11:33 AM

Um didn't they win a grand tour ? :)Cheers

estilley

05-21-2012, 11:40 AM

MattTuck

05-21-2012, 11:46 AM

If I was JB, I'd have Andy riding his Time Trial bike 80% of the time. I'd be sending him into town, to pick up dinner for the team on his Time trial bike.

He has to get more comfortable on that thing.

Obviously, TT is as much mental as it is physical, but still, I'd be disappointed if Andy's time trialing ability was not markedly better this year.

Not saying he's over-rated. If anything, I think people may under-estimate the threat he could be if he finds some time trialing ability, and that only comes with practice. I remember reading Lance did a big percentage of training on this TT bike. There's no substitute for that.

How many KMs of TT are in the tour this year? A LOT! 96 km of individual time trialing...

Tom

05-21-2012, 11:57 AM

Separated shoulder? Luxury, luxury said Tyler Hamilton.

tiretrax

05-21-2012, 12:26 PM

I personally find Cadel boring to watch.

I agree. Wheelsucking is his forte, not attacking (he could have won the Criterium International the first year it was in Corsica if he had attacked). That's why he failed to win a major race until last year. He did put in an inspired TT, but Andy's ability to psych himself out of a good TT was probably a bigger factor. It reminds me of my children telling me they're not good in math, yet they can do all sorts of calculations and geometric proofs if I ask them a specific question.

Someone else mentioned the Schleck weight to height ratio - they are such slender reeds, and that is an incredible advantage.

It's time for Andy to toughen up.

Viper

05-21-2012, 12:36 PM

It's time for Andy to toughen up.

Dear Andy,

Suggest you stop swimming in the pool of dolphins with your foe:

http://cdn0.media.cyclingnews.futurecdn.net/2009/11/05/2/acr09contadorfenaschleckdolfijn_600.jpg

The next time you drop your chain with a "mechanical" and your foe sprints ahead, do not cry, whine or complain serving words with a spoon; find your knife as the Italians say and attack. Attack up Tourmalet and next time your foe pinches your cheek and pats your face, bite his hand.

More JAWS, less Flipper.

Regards,
Viper

tiretrax

05-21-2012, 12:46 PM

More JAWS, less Flipper.
Quote Of The Day!

GregL

05-21-2012, 12:53 PM

Got to trot this one out again...

Dear Frank and Andy,

I am very pleased that you will both be riding on my new team. I wanted to address a few things right away so we get off on the right foot. The goal of this team is to WIN races, we view 2nd and 3rd place as the 1st and 2nd losers. Here are a few new team rules that will go into place at the end of the 2011 season.

1. Ride together all you want in the off season, because next year you will NEVER be in the same race. I will not have either one of you looking around for the other one. Frank you should study up on Italy and Spain. Andy focus on France! During Grand Tours, you are not allowed to call, Skype or send pictures to one another.

2. We will be repossessing all but one of your bikes for the first 3 months of the off season. The only one we are leaving you is a Time Trial bike. You might remember that bike is the one with the funny looking bars that makes the "swoosh swoosh" noise when you ride it. LEARN to ride it and get faster on it! You look like two monkeys humping a football when you ride a TT. We will fix this!

3. Andy this one is directed at you: We will have a bonfire at our training camp: bring every picture/note/piece of Best Friend stuff you have from your relationship with Alberto (Contador). To be honest, he thinks you're a fool and he makes fun of you every chance he gets. He actually referred to you as "mi perra" over race radio. (Google it - it's not kind.)*

4. If you are going to do your "traditional" off season dolphin swims, make sure there is no one there to take pictures. Swimming with a porpoise is completely emasculating. Grow 2 pairs and swim with sharks if you need to get closer to nature. Don't say a word about Boonen swimming with the dolphins: he pulls more girls than most rock stars and wins cobbled classic races.

5. Scarves... lose them, ALL of them!

6. Andy this is another one for you - if you win a stage you are never allowed to "post up." It looks as though you are having a seizure and we can't use the pictures for any PR purposes.

7. We will have an in-depth class for both of you about social media and the topic of WINNING! I never want to see another Tweet like "We are ___ (fill in with words like happy, satisfied, content) to get 2nd and 3rd at ___ (fill in race/stage Amstel, the TDF, etc)

8. Only one of you can ride the Luxembourg championship races. You can decide between the two of you, but trying to figure out which one of you has those jerseys gives me a headache. Plus, there are only like 5 riders from your country so it doesn't matter much anyway; it's not like you're Belgian!

9. Yes, you will be riding SRAM again. Get over it; our mechanics know *** they are doing and you will be fine.

10. Please try to pay attention when training. No music, texting, or no handed riding. I don't want to see pictures of your skinny bodies all bloody and damaged. You two look like you escaped from a prison camp half the off season.

P.S: Find out when and where Johnny Hoogerland trains and ride with him!

Kindest regards,

JB

veloduffer

05-21-2012, 01:39 PM

I agree. Wheelsucking is his forte, not attacking (he could have won the Criterium International the first year it was in Corsica if he had attacked). That's why he failed to win a major race until last year. He did put in an inspired TT, but Andy's ability to psych himself out of a good TT was probably a bigger factor. It reminds me of my children telling me they're not good in math, yet they can do all sorts of calculations and geometric proofs if I ask them a specific question.

I'm not a Evans fan but I gotta disagree with this assessment of Evans. Prior to 2009, you could characterize him as a whiner. But when he won the World Championship Road in Sept 2009, he wore the rainbow jersey with distinction (in 2010) that hadn't been seen in a while:

1st in Flech Wallone (not known as a classics rider nor built like a Cancellera or Boonen)
4th in Liege Bastogne Liege
5th in Giro
4th in Tirreno Adriatico

and in last yr's TdF, he did some attacking when it is opportune. But he's not a pure climber like the Schlecks and Contador and facing the all 3 by himself in the mtns, he rode a smart race. Everytime those guys jumped, he was the one leading the chase to pull them back. I don't think you should fault a rider for playing to his strengths and using tactics. And given his age (34 in 2011), his chances of winning a TdF were narrowing pretty quickly.

Also, the guy was the 1998 World Cup Champion in mountain biking. That's quite a career.

Fixed

05-21-2012, 02:07 PM

ultraman6970

05-21-2012, 02:15 PM

Have to agree... the world champion jersey and the people behind changed him a lot. No climber but his career is pretty long. World champion mtb 98 and 99... by 2007 he was the UCI pro tour winner already.

Other details, the guy practically never got a team built around him as the "care bears" and others do, specially in the lotto years when "the kaiser" was long gone.

So if you look at the guy, he is pretty successful, i really doubt we will see Tenderheart and Baby Hugs Bears to get a world Champion jersey ever to start with, not saying are awfully bad racers but at the beginning I was ok with them but when AS started crying then i started to dislike them and observing their behavior in another way. I raced too and at least from were i came from the crying wimps just dont get any respect and pretty much I'm sure is the same anywhere else.

At least this two in my book are just two wips. That's why you can't compare Evans with this two guys, Evans way of racing is different... sucking wheel and stuff but the guy is not a climber and has to figure it out and do his best with what he has and many times with no team to back him up and he never complained about it. In a matter of fact back in 2010 he raced the TdF with a wrist broken (or something), clearly he was in pain but at least he finished. 3 times world champion and I doubt he won the MTB jerseys in a raffle either, you can't really compare because there are other things besides being cute for the press.

For example now FS retired from the Giro. Anybody can explain me how you can get a dislocated shoulder and being able to ride the bike right away, complain about rasmussen and being able to go 3 more days in pain when with a dislocated shoulder you are in crying in the floor from the pain?? Non sense to me unless there is something else called dislocation that I ignore... I was him I would have tell I had the sshhtieszz and i was dehydrated, need to come back home, end of the story. Would look more real.

slidey

05-21-2012, 03:39 PM

Wait, did they? I'm quite sure Frank hasn't won any of the three grand tours and Andy, well...he has a TdF to his name, surely didn't win it though.

Um didn't they win a grand tour ? :)Cheers

slidey

05-21-2012, 03:48 PM

Do they whine about SRAM?

This might explain why one person I know who's a big Schleck fan is also a major SRAM disser (without reason).

9. Yes, you will be riding SRAM again. Get over it; our mechanics know *** they are doing and you will be fine.

P.S: Find out when and where Johnny Hoogerland trains and ride with him!

Kindest regards,

JB

David Kirk

05-21-2012, 04:30 PM

I see them as extremely gifted climbers but not exceptional Tour riders. They climb so well that they do very, very well in grand tours but unless the better all rounder cyclists in front of them have issues I don't see them winning the TdF outright.

In an interview I read with one of them (sad and unfair to them that I can't remember which one) a few seasons back he said that he knew he wasn't a great descender or TT rider and that he was putting all his eggs in the climbing basket - he was going to further train to his strengths. That's a perfect strategy if the TT's are short and uphill and if all the mountain stages end with mountain top finishes.............but that's not how it works and the rider needs to be able to crest the top of the mountain with the best and then descend the 20-30K to the finish with the best to make time on he rivals. The fatal flaw is the tactic of training to one's strengths. If they could go downhill better and TT better at a slight sacrifice of climbing strength they could win a lot of Tours......but it takes a special breed of rider to see that and take the risk of losing the one thing they've really got nailed at the chance of doing better overall.

I'm not holding my breath. In the mean time I expect to read more about how there aren't enough hill top finishes and how the downhills are too dangerous.

Fun to watch any way one cuts it though and since at it's core it's only entertainment for the great unwashed masses I'm fine with that.

Dave

tiretrax

05-21-2012, 04:36 PM

I'm not a Evans fan but I gotta disagree with this assessment of Evans. Prior to 2009, you could characterize him as a whiner. But when he won the World Championship Road in Sept 2009, he wore the rainbow jersey with distinction (in 2010) that hadn't been seen in a while:

1st in Flech Wallone (not known as a classics rider nor built like a Cancellera or Boonen)
4th in Liege Bastogne Liege
5th in Giro
4th in Tirreno Adriatico

and in last yr's TdF, he did some attacking when it is opportune. But he's not a pure climber like the Schlecks and Contador and facing the all 3 by himself in the mtns, he rode a smart race. Everytime those guys jumped, he was the one leading the chase to pull them back. I don't think you should fault a rider for playing to his strengths and using tactics. And given his age (34 in 2011), his chances of winning a TdF were narrowing pretty quickly.

Also, the guy was the 1998 World Cup Champion in mountain biking. That's quite a career.

Evans seemed to nut up once he got the rainbow jersey, I'll give that to him. In the 2010 TDF, he rode for a few days with a broken arm - that's pretty impressive. Last year, I don't remember him attacking so much as closing gaps. Again, he deserves a lot of respect for chasing down Andy with no help and dragging 3 or 4 people with him.

His WC seemed to be as much due to bad tactics from others:
"Kolobnev and Rodriguez took their time in responding. That hesitancy, and the fact that Valverde and Cunego were riding further back, marking each other with Cancellara, ultimately played into Evans’s hands. The Aussie hung on to cross the line alone, with Kolobnev and Rodriguez in his wake."

When he won Fleche Wallone in 2010 wearing the rainbow jersey, he sucked Contador's wheel the whole race.

Actually, I am pulling for him this year. I like BMC and have respect for Andy Riis, Ochowicz, Hincapie, Gilbert, and many others on the team.

I don't follow mountain biking, so I don't know much about his early career other than he was successful in it. It's possible he was unhappy with his immediate lack of success and whined.

deluxerider

05-21-2012, 04:45 PM

If everyone is doping that would create a level playing field. The doper with the best physiological gifts still wins. So, maybe Basso and the Schlecks are no longer medically enhanced, but the riders who are beating them are still medically enhanced and that is enough to put them ahead of Basso and Schlecks. What's to say the Joaquin Rodriguez isn't doping and therefore that gives him the edge to beat Basso on the Giro climbs. If you take away his medical enhancement he may not be beating Basso. It seems silly to say that racing at the top isn't in the cards when you can't say whether the playing field is level.

I'll just say what i'm sure lots of people are thinking:
Andy and Frank stopped doping, and now racing at the top isn't in the cards.

Lots of other riders are in the same situation. Basso? A shadow of his
former turbo-charged self. Get used to it, as more and more
teams are no longer going to run a medical enhancement program,
there will be some faces that never return to the front in the same way
as "the glory days".

-g

slidey

05-21-2012, 06:33 PM

My favourite moment of the Tour! This one, gutsy move ensured that the TdF was firmly within his grasp.

My 2nd favourite moment was Contador cracking on the mountains. This would've made the Schleck's kick themselves so hard for waiting on AC to make the first move, when in all reality AC was winded (by tour contender standards) by his massively impressive performance at the Giro.

My qualm is with the lack of (initiative, presence of mind) with two heads together, that too two heads who've raced all their life together...everything else being equal, the advantage is squarely on them but they manage to whittle it away quite consistently, thus far.

But hey, if Andy can learn descending then all's not lost yet!

But he's not a pure climber like the Schlecks and Contador and facing the all 3 by himself in the mtns, he rode a smart race. Everytime those guys jumped, he was the one leading the chase to pull them back.

rustychisel

05-21-2012, 07:06 PM

If everyone is doping that would create a level playing field. The doper with the best physiological gifts still wins.

OT response to this, I know, but I have a major problem with this line of thinking, and it's the major reason why doping should NOT be allowed.

Medically speaking, it doesn't level the playing field, it allows those with the best medical treatment to win, and particularly those with the most money.

It's always been that way, from LA down through the ages. Read, for one instance only, the relevant section in William Fotheringham's excellent Tom Simpson bio 'Put Me Back On My Bike', where Tom's little case of preparations is being discussed. He bought the best because he could afford the best, paying the equivalent of one of his domestiques yearly salary.

The only way to try for a 'level playing field' is to have the same rules for all and zero tolerance, that is as sure as knowing competitive sports will always have those who try to break rules or seek an advantage, unfair or otherwise. Open slather is not the answer, not when the rewards can be so great.*

* leaves aside ethical considerations such as whether we care about dead riders, medical and physical wrecks at the conclusion of their sporting career, the fact that Simpson's drugs were not as we know them now, being principally stimulants [amphetamines], and the fact that there still exists a grey area between acceptable medical supervision in preparation and organised doping practises.

Rueda Tropical

05-21-2012, 07:13 PM

If everyone is doping that would create a level playing field.

Everyone doping does not create a level playing field (where everyone winds up in the same podium position -just with faster times).

It completely changes the playing field and the metrics for success. Athletes who have metabolisms that get the most benefit from certain kinds of doping will have an advantage over better athletes who see smaller gains from medication. Access to better doctors, labs and more sophisticated networks to support illegal doping may give an inferior athlete an advantage over a better athlete with less high tech doping support. It becomes in part a contest of medical technology and bio-engineering and a particular athletes metabolisms response to doping. Maybe the crooked doctors should be getting the medals.

It's impossible to know who is taking the biggest risks to more effectively dope and who is clean or being more conservative with their doping programs and how much doping plays a role in any particular race.

93legendti

05-21-2012, 08:02 PM

Anyone remember Andy's epic attack in the TDF last year? All Cadel did was reduce the gap until the time trial and that brought him a victory.

The Schleck's may not be the best, but at least they are keeping cycling entertaining. I personally find Cadel boring to watch.

Same here...
Basso will be 35 and won the Giro in 2010. Good enough for me. Grand Tour winners are almost always younger than 34...

In fact, the 1955 winner of the Giro was the oldest at 34 yrs old. Evans, at 34 yrs old last year, was the oldest winner of the TdF since 1948.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Basso
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Giro_d%27Italia_general_classification_win ners
http://news.yahoo.com/cadel-evans-becomes-oldest-post-war-tour-france-170400907.html