Pegoretti Frame (part 2 question)

[norcalbiker]

After reading all the comments about the Pegoretti Marcelo frame. I am now interested on this frame. Here is my other question.

What is good price for a new frame?
Or should I ask what is a good market value for a new frame?

[ultraman6970]

Ebay can help iMO... but pegos are expensive used, and even more if new.

[nighthawk]

New Pegs:

http://www.gitabike.com/cgi-bin/shop/pegoretti_loadhome.cgi?file=pegoretti.html

[nighthawk]

MSRP on a stock Marcelo is $3400.

[fuzzalow]

I have a Marcelo, great bike. Pegs are not normally sold at a discount and new Marcelos are quite expensive now. Unforetunately, you gotta put cash on the barrelhead to ride.

But still, it isn't more for new Peg than for a new carbon from any of the mass market makers. And Dario's reputation is worth much more to me than this season's marketing dribble from the big guns.

[Liv2RideHard]

It is art. It does not come cheap. There are used Pegoretti's out there. The biciclette is more. Dario makes them by hand in Caldonazzo. It is a small workshop. I am on my way there now. Start a dialogue with Signore Dario. Just remember he is the master. Price is a deciding factor but it should not be why you get a Pego. They are so much more.

Ciao

[monkeybanana86]

I agree, keep an eye on eBay. Buy new if you can otherwise I saw one that I wanted go for 1000 (supposedly lower end but it was still art). I ended up getting a Serotta but sometimes wonder...

[norcalbiker]

MSRP on a stock Marcelo is $3400.

So I guess $3k for new Marcelo would a good price then.

[norcalbiker]

I have a Marcelo, great bike. Pegs are not normally sold at a discount and new Marcelos are quite expensive now. Unforetunately, you gotta put cash on the barrelhead to ride.

But still, it isn't more for new Peg than for a new carbon from any of the mass market makers. And Dario's reputation is worth much more to me than this season's marketing dribble from the big guns.

Ever ride that Marcelo of yours on a century ride? If you did, can I get a feedback.

[fuzzalow]

Sure, what would you like feedback on?

Know that from my point of view, goodness and suitability for long distance or extended saddle time duration have little to do with intrinsic bike geometry qualities. So if you're looking for a bike that excels at centuries, well, they all do. All you have to do is fit correctly on it and it will feel and handle the same at mile 99 as it did on mile 1.

If this didn't get at what you want to know, point me in the direction you want to have answered and I'll take a whip at it.

[jmeloy]

$3k for a new one would be an excellent price. Mine took 10 months from the day I ordered. Worked thru BiKyle outside of Philly and he was great. My communication with Dario, while not extensive was VERY fun. He is a wonderful man.
My Marcelo is one of a kind and makes me smile every time I swing a leg over it!

[norcalbiker]

All you have to do is fit correctly on it and it will feel and handle the same at mile 99 as it did on mile 1.

If this didn't get at what you want to know, point me in the direction you want to have answered and I'll take a whip at it.

I think I got what I need to hear.

[cnighbor1]

If you want a modern steel frame from Italy there is not much choice
go for it
Pegoretti are sold in Pregus in Danville I see them there and they look great
But the frame names is the deciding factor to buy
Charles

[TMB]

If you want a modern steel frame from Italy there is not much choice
go for it
Pegoretti are sold in Pregus in Danville I see them there and they look great
But the frame names is the deciding factor to buy
Charles

There is also Pellizoli and Zullo.

[norcalbiker]

If you want a modern steel frame from Italy there is not much choice
go for it
Pegoretti are sold in Pregus in Danville I see them there and they look great
But the frame names is the deciding factor to buy
Charles

Do you by any chance mean Pegasus in Danville?

[ultraman6970]

Uf... this is just my opinion ok? If it wasnt for the ugly ass tig welding they use i would have tried to get one long time ago. IMO again, for what you pay they should at least process those tig welds to make them smooth, probably is too expensive??? If it is then why not braze them??? never seen a pegoretti with fillets, always that ugly a$$ tig weld.

Another option is go custom, a lot of american builders that go IMO beyond pegoretti in the welding/brazing dept.

This next comment is personal as well ok? European made frames w/o the paint are really ugly, the issue is that you have the mysticism behind their brands and that's what people looks. But italian builders in particular are really sloppy, as long as the bike leave the process area to get painted fast, they barely work the lugs for example so pretty much no matter how custom it is you get the same stuff you can get in the store but with the tubes cut at your size, then a good paint job and platina chrome job and ready to go.

Another personal opinion, the best raw finished frames are made here in the states, add that killer paint jobs and you get awesome finished bikes. Vanilla and 611 bicycles (dykstra) make stuff just insane if you are looking for something racy you know.. out side of the USA for example you have BAUM from australia that make bikes simply unreal... would love to see pegoretti just tig as good as Baum does... that ain't going to happen IMO.

Well good luck in your search.

[Marz]

Welds, smelds as long as they ride brilliantly. My Peg feels like I'm riding on a cloud. Also, perfection is overrated and once you get your first scratch on your perfectly-finished bike, it's over.

Pegoretti's welds are good enough. I'm not hanging mine on the wall.

I know I have OCD tendencies, and I have been known to be a bit anal on occasions but Dario's work reflects a particular honest and down -to-earth approach. I could go on, but I won't. IMHO.

PS. Baum has had a few unsatisfied (and angry) customers regarding his no-front-overlap geometry obsession on his >$7,000 titanium bikes.

[fuzzalow]

It is refreshing to read the opposite reaction from ultraman6970 versus how a fan of italian bikes and Pegorettis in particular responds to the same assemblage of metal tubes.

All these faults like tig joints, paint, lackadaisical detail work, etc that cringe like nails on a chalkboard to the an unbiased eye are happily ignored by the likes of infatuated italophiles like me. Idiosyncrasies are not seen as faults and faults are never seen as faults until the emotion fades.

Many different bikes to admire and enjoy. Even if the view of italian bikes is opposite to mine, the passion for bikes sounds the same. On that basis alone - Salud.

[choke]

IMO again, for what you pay they should at least process those tig welds to make them smooth, probably is too expensive??? If it is then why not braze them??? never seen a pegoretti with fillets, always that ugly a$$ tig weld. It's my understanding (and hopefully one of the framebuilders will correct me if I'm wrong) that a tig weld on steel is a single pass operation and there isn't enough material to grind them down smooth. When building with Al and Ti double passes are possible and that's why the welds on them can be made to look different. FWIW Dario's welds are very small and hardly noticeable under a darker color paint.

But, like fuzzalow, I'm an Italiophile when it comes to two wheels and while I definitely prefer lugs I picked up a lightly used Responsorium when I found a pretty good deal. I have no regrets at all and if I had to reduce the herd to one bike it would likely be the choice.

[ultraman6970]

It depends how they make them I believe, there is a process at least in Aluminum where they tig and then at the same time it is sanded smooth. My old BMC looked carbon and the frame was aluminum, the welds were flat as carbon. The De Rosa planet I have the same thing. Wish I knew the name of the process tho, but as i said... Im not saying the pegoretti bikes are bad, just that i'm pretty anal with the finishing in a expensive frame that's all. No idea if possible to achieve that finish in steel tig, maybe not.

Just like expending a lot in Porsche to have the bucket seats of a toyota matrix for example... to me just dont add a lot of money with bad welding finishing when for example they could fillet them. Well faster and cheaper to do tig than fillets, that's undeniably better for them.

For the record the best nude (previous paint) fillets i have seen have seen my old master builder who died a few weeks ago and several builders here in the US.

[TMB]

This is the first time I have ever seen Pegoretti's welds referred to as "bad"

Something new everyday I guess.

[tiretrax]

There are 1,000 new millionaires today who are scarfing them up. See the NY Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/18/technology/a-start-up-is-gold-for-facebooks-new-millionaires.html?_r=2&pagewanted=2&hp&pagewanted=all

It's no wonder that Above Category in Marin County stocks them by the bushel.

[choke]

Ultraman, I won't try to change your mind, I can understand (and for the most part relate to) your dislike of tig welds. We all have our own views on what makes for a good aesthetic.

But....it's hard for me to call these 'bad welds'......

http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv148/BlackHills1/Peg/DSCN2592.jpg

[fuzzalow]

^^Dang, those are very artful welds.

I took a closer look of the welds on my Marcelo and indeed, they look as yours. Huh, never even bothered to look.

Perhaps the ugly Peg welds are from the aluminium frames, those welds look like AL welds usually do, which is not all that pretty.

[cnighbor1]

yes Five points for spelling it correct

[TMB]

Ultraman, I won't try to change your mind, I can understand (and for the most part relate to) your dislike of tig welds. We all have our own views on what makes for a good aesthetic.

But....it's hard for me to call these 'bad welds'......

http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv148/BlackHills1/Peg/DSCN2592.jpg

What is that second pic?

[cnighbor1]

If your going to say TIG welding looks bad than only choices left in in steel is lugged or fillet brazing Which is great but modern steel frames have moved on. So if you want a classic frame forget TIG. however the ride and handling is the big factors How that is achived is a moot point

[wallymann]

that stands in stark contrast to dario's otherworldly pricing. nothing against charging as much as you can, free market at all, when people are lining up to empty their wallets for your product.

however, for being honest and down-to-earth i really respect pellizolli's work and ethos. being a ciocc-rider from back in the '80s i guess i'm biased. ;)

...Dario's work reflects a particular honest and down -to-earth approach...

[Peter B]

What is that second pic?

The hooded rear dropout.

[TMB]

that stands in stark contrast to dario's otherworldly pricing. nothing against charging as much as you can, free market at all, when people are lining up to empty their wallets for your product.

however, for being honest and down-to-earth i really respect pellizolli's work and ethos. being a ciocc-rider from back in the '80s i guess i'm biased. ;)

You do, of course, realize that the pricing of Pegoretti frames in NA is not set by Dario. It is set by Gita.

Problem with the pricing? Talk to Gita.

[wallymann]

the process you describe is called "two pass welds". first is done for structure, second is done for aesthetics. on some materials, like aluminum, you can even do finish sanding to make the welds perfectly smooth.

sounds like the modern *steel* tubesets used for bicycles (read: light, thin, and special hardening treatments) these days dont lend themselves to 2-pass TIG welding.

It depends how they make them I believe, there is a process at least in Aluminum where they tig and then at the same time it is sanded smooth. My old BMC looked carbon and the frame was aluminum, the welds were flat as carbon. The De Rosa planet I have the same thing. Wish I knew the name of the process tho, but as i said... Im not saying the pegoretti bikes are bad, just that i'm pretty anal with the finishing in a expensive frame that's all. No idea if possible to achieve that finish in steel tig, maybe not.

[fuzzalow]

@TMB

The 2nd pic is the rear dropout. Some call them hooded dropouts. Allows the chainstay tube to be welded to a larger contact area instead of pressed flat to mate with the flat dropout.

[TMB]

@TMB

The 2nd pic is the rear dropout. Some call them hooded dropouts. Allows the chainstay tube to be welded to a larger contact area instead of pressed flat to mate with the flat dropout.

I could not figure out what that was, thanks.

Of course I'm looking at it on a teeny tiny screen that may have something to do with it.

[wallymann]

are pegs substantially cheaper in europe or asia or elsewhere?

You do, of course, realize that the pricing of Pegoretti frames in NA is not set by Dario. It is set by Gita.

Problem with the pricing? Talk to Gita.

[Rudy]

Uf... this is just my opinion ok? If it wasnt for the ugly ass tig welding they use i would have tried to get one long time ago. IMO again, for what you pay they should at least process those tig welds to make them smooth, probably is too expensive??? If it is then why not braze them??? never seen a pegoretti with fillets, always that ugly a$$ tig weld.

Another option is go custom, a lot of american builders that go IMO beyond pegoretti in the welding/brazing dept.

This next comment is personal as well ok? European made frames w/o the paint are really ugly, the issue is that you have the mysticism behind their brands and that's what people looks. But italian builders in particular are really sloppy, as long as the bike leave the process area to get painted fast, they barely work the lugs for example so pretty much no matter how custom it is you get the same stuff you can get in the store but with the tubes cut at your size, then a good paint job and platina chrome job and ready to go.

Another personal opinion, the best raw finished frames are made here in the states, add that killer paint jobs and you get awesome finished bikes. Vanilla and 611 bicycles (dykstra) make stuff just insane if you are looking for something racy you know.. out side of the USA for example you have BAUM from australia that make bikes simply unreal... would love to see pegoretti just tig as good as Baum does... that ain't going to happen IMO.

Well good luck in your search.

I bought a Luigino frame and fork several years ago from Gita. Upon receipt it was clear that it was inferior to my lowest end, off the rack Waterford in respect to brazing and finish. Sent it back. Won't rant but am happy to provide details on the forum or PM if anyone is interested.

[fuzzalow]

I bought a Luigino frame and fork several years ago from Gita. Upon receipt it was clear that it was inferior to my lowest end, off the rack Waterford in respect to brazing and finish. Sent it back. Won't rant but am happy to provide details on the forum or PM if anyone is interested.

I don't disbelieve you but I have yet to see firsthand or in photographs a slopdash construct on any Pegoretti. I am interested in the details. What was it about the Luigino you had that was clearly inferior to a lowest end Waterford. (That bar is still set pretty high as any Waterford is well constructed and finished.)

I also have a Luigino from Gita from several years ago. It is faultlessly constructed and finished. IMO Pegs are not comparable to the stereotyped italian frame of yore. Pegs are neither the product of light industrial factory manufacturing nor pressured to produce in quantity and cost as would a branded marque or subcontractor. Dario's output is Dario's alone and there are no incentives that I can discern that make it advantageous to pass along a poorly constructed frame.

I like Pegorettis but I'm not apostolic about them. Your post can take an opinion and criticism of Pegs which makes for spirited conversation. And if you don't like Pegs just 'cos you don't like 'em, that's fine too and there is no need to explain. But if you accuse a builder of Dario's reputation and track record of making and selling to you a clearly inferior frame, by how ever way you define inferior, then there's got to be a followup to play this string out.

Looking forward to what say you.

[uber]

I own a Peg and love the tig welding on it. I agree that there are superb American builders, and have a Speedvagen with almost identical geometry to my Peg. They are both wonderful bikes, but they feel differently. If you love the Peg, you are right. My understanding is that the Duende and Responsoriums might be better suited for century riding. The Marcelo, and Big Leg Emma are more race like. I believe the aluminum Love 3 is the most race specific Pegoretti.

[oldpotatoe]

that stands in stark contrast to dario's otherworldly pricing. nothing against charging as much as you can, free market at all, when people are lining up to empty their wallets for your product.

however, for being honest and down-to-earth i really respect pellizolli's work and ethos. being a ciocc-rider from back in the '80s i guess i'm biased. ;)

Agree, Love his frames, one of the last(last?, I guess Alberto Masi is still building) of the Italian craftsmen but...

http://www.gitabike.com/cgi-bin/shop/pegoretti_loadhome.cgi?user_id=51642&file=pegoretti.html

$4000 f/f??

[jimbolina]

Agree, Love his frames, one of the last(last?, I guess Alberto Masi is still building) of the Italian craftsmen but...

http://www.gitabike.com/cgi-bin/shop/pegoretti_loadhome.cgi?user_id=51642&file=pegoretti.html

$4000 f/f??

Don't forget Marnati, Zullo and Pelizzoli. These four, including Pegoretti, probably are the last of the hands-on Italian masters who still braze-up frames themselves!

In my opinion, Giovanni Pelizzoli is the best deal out there as his frameset prices are extremely reasonable, and that's coming from a VERY experienced builder, no less.

Grab one from one of these guys before they are all gone and all that will be left is stuff sourced from Taiwan, with Italian stickers on them...

Jim

[dnades]

I have an older marcelo (2004/5) made with the Dedaccai tubing. Black paint with the hands paint job. It is very hard to see the welds. Maybe if I strip the paint I could see them better but of what I can see they are narrow and exceedlingly uniform.

[bluesea]

If the blue 8:30AM on ebay was my size I would have jumped on it.