View Full Version : Not really sure what to make of this
moose8
05-18-2012, 10:27 AM
http://www.boston.com/yourtown/news/weston/2012/05/cyclists_to_be_barred_from_wes.html?p1=Well_Local_ YourTownlinks
on the one hand a private road is a private road, on the other hand it reeks of snobbishness
nebraskacycling
05-18-2012, 10:32 AM
Weird that they have to pay the police to keep people off of their private property though. Why don't they install a gate and hire a guard there full time. OMG they are riding two wide (using the whole right lane) and what if I hit them with my golf ball? Really? Lighten up people.
zmudshark
05-18-2012, 10:33 AM
Seems like Sgt Tinglof is not familiar with laws regarding cyclists, unless MA is different than everywhere else.
"The cyclists create a problem for golfers in carts trying to cross the road, for motorists trying to pass the riders and for golfers who fear a stray ball will hit someone riding by, he said."
What's the issue? It's a private road and the problem cyclists are not members or residents.
Why?
It's a private road, paid for by club owners.
Why shouldn't they be able to control who uses it?
I would guess that in the past, some riders didn't think to be polite and thankful for use of such road. In fact I would bet a great deal of cash that some were rude and thought they owned the road and all should yield to them.
Well, I guess they will now know that they had to give the golf carts the right of way, and yield to them. opps!
Seems like Sgt Tinglof is not familiar with laws regarding cyclists, unless MA is different than everywhere else.
MA is a strange place indeed. Only liberal state to have ever elected a severely conservative governor. :eek:
On a more serious note, 2 things - that road doesn't look very 'private,' and the golf club adjoining it looks really nice (from the aerial view, at least).
Weird that they have to pay the police to keep people off of their private property though. Why don't they install a gate and hire a guard there full time. OMG they are riding two wide (using the whole right lane) and what if I hit them with my golf ball? Really? Lighten up people.
It's a private road. If the owners don't want bikers, then they can not allow them.
Seems like Sgt Tinglof is not familiar with laws regarding cyclists, unless MA is different than everywhere else.
It's NOT a public road!
I've ridden through that area many many times and somehow missed ever riding down that road unless it was in a group ride and I wasn't really aware of where I was.. I used to commute through Weston very close to the club..
I guess no problem, the bizarre thing is having the police involved.. it probably costs a zillion dollars to join the club they can afford to put up a fancy gate & give members transponders for their cars or something..
This town makes Beverly Hills look modest if you're not familiar with it. I got harassed lots of times while cycling by people who probably thought the town roads should be restricted to people who have cars worth >$100,000. And yet it's a pretty town so it gets plenty of cycling traffic..
tiretrax
05-18-2012, 11:53 AM
I live near a country club that recently installed gates to prevent drivers from cutting through to avoid a busy intersection. Nothing wrong with that.
MattTuck
05-18-2012, 12:01 PM
Amen. If it is a private road they can do whatever they want. It is is sort of a douchebag move if they allow cars to use it publicly, but not bikes. But that is still their prerogative.
If it is used a public road, even if it is private (ie. if the town plows it in the winter, if the school bus goes down it to pick up their kids, etc...) then it should be open to cyclists as well.
They should just put up a gate if they aren't happy with non-residents using it.
I live near a country club that recently installed gates to prevent drivers from cutting through to avoid a busy intersection. Nothing wrong with that.
Gummee
05-18-2012, 12:48 PM
17Mile Dr in Monterrey, CA is the same way.
No MCs allowed. Period.
...but they have a gate and everything.
http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/298/298,1102374222,1/stock-photo-the-lone-monterey-pine-at-monterey-point-california-54762.jpg
This iconic image is from 17mi Dr
M
eippo1
05-18-2012, 01:05 PM
The only way to counter this is to have a whole mess of Harley's roll through there at the same time every week. Weird thing is about Weston is that it's full of cyclists and snooty types, making for a weird mix. I believe that they also have a single file law there.
I grew up near there, so hate riding anywhere near that area.
aaronv
05-18-2012, 01:07 PM
What is unclear to me is whether private road = private property in the state of Massachusetts. Both phrases contain the work private, but I looked into this a month ago as there was state park that I wanted to access and the only way was via a road designated as private.
This is what I found.
From
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008/02/10/private_ways_public_access/
"Can private road dwellers stop outsiders from driving down their block? Are private ways closed to the general public?
You wouldn't believe how tough it was to get a straight answer on this.
Some traffic officials hadn't a clue. Other sources, including a few police departments, told me that if residents on a private way elect to post "No Trespassing" signs at the beginning of the street, then yes, the street is closed to outsiders.
Thank goodness that Mark Rumley, Medford's city solicitor, knew the correct law.
"Residents cannot put up a 'No Trespassing' sign at the front of a private way," he said. "The public has the right to pass on it. People think of 'private' in the sense of something being exclusive. But it's really private in that it has not been accepted as a public way, with public standards. It does not mean exclusivity. Being a way, it's open for the public to pass.
"
moose8
05-18-2012, 01:36 PM
Very interesting find - I think the next paragraph in that article is instructive too: "Residents cannot put up a 'No Trespassing' sign at the front of a private way," he said. "The public has the right to pass on it. People think of 'private' in the sense of something being exclusive. But it's really private in that it has not been accepted as a public way, with public standards. It does not mean exclusivity. Being a way, it's open for the public to pass.
"Do the people along the private way have rights in the private way? Yes," Rumley continued. "But those rights are subject to the right of the public to traverse the way. Some people will say to you that as abutters, we own to the middle of the way. When they say that, ask them to go to the assessors' office and see if the additional footage into the middle of the street is on their tax bill. I can tell you: No, it isn't. And do they want it included? No, they don't."
I wonder what the situation is in Weston - looks like the roads are owned by the Weston Roads Trust who contribute to the maintenance of a bunch of roads. Whether that means they should be able to keep a specific group out (i.e. non-residents) is another question I guess. There just seems to me to be something slightly unsettling about hiring police to keep people off roads, but I guess if it's truly private that's the owner's business.
I know where I live in Boston we have an alley that abuts a few private buildings, and the city does no maintenance on it, where people do very shady and gross things and we were looking into fencing it off but couldn't, though I don't know what the exact reasons were.
What is unclear to me is whether private road = private property in the state of Massachusetts. Both phrases contain the work private, but I looked into this a month ago as there was state park that I wanted to access and the only way was via a road designated as private.
This is what I found.
From
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008/02/10/private_ways_public_access/
"Can private road dwellers stop outsiders from driving down their block? Are private ways closed to the general public?
You wouldn't believe how tough it was to get a straight answer on this.
Some traffic officials hadn't a clue. Other sources, including a few police departments, told me that if residents on a private way elect to post "No Trespassing" signs at the beginning of the street, then yes, the street is closed to outsiders.
Thank goodness that Mark Rumley, Medford's city solicitor, knew the correct law.
"Residents cannot put up a 'No Trespassing' sign at the front of a private way," he said. "The public has the right to pass on it. People think of 'private' in the sense of something being exclusive. But it's really private in that it has not been accepted as a public way, with public standards. It does not mean exclusivity. Being a way, it's open for the public to pass.
"
paulYpaul
05-18-2012, 02:35 PM
I'm not sure how relevant the analogy to 17 mile drive actually is. That road is clearly private - with a toll-booth and guards making you pay to drive on it - in a way that the MA case doesn't appear to be. While no motos are allowed, bikes can ride that road without having to pay.
I went through there last summer on my way to Big Sur - got lost on their confusing roads and ended up doing waay more climbing than I should have had to to get out of there. lame. but free ;)
rugbysecondrow
05-18-2012, 02:49 PM
Good for the club them. Cyclists need to stop being big dickheads, realize that they are members of the community and not just users of the road, and they need to treat others how they would want to be treated. It sounds like they made their bed and now they need to sleep in it.
The club is paying extra to keep cyclists out during prime times do to complaints and safety issues...that seems legit. It doesn't say whether non-prime times are fair game.
I love to ride my bike, I try to be a good steward of the road and I try to be a good advocate and represent cyclists well while on my bike. I wish others would do that as well.
BumbleBeeDave
05-18-2012, 02:52 PM
The article clearly states it's a private road on private property and is signed "private" at both ends.
Seems legal to me. Just go ride somewhere else.
BBD
I've been through 17 mile drive in the last few years and yes, it certainly seems different.
But maybe California allows private roads in a way that MA does not... I remember my parents living on one of these "private ways" for a while until the town accepted responsibility for the neighborhood roads. The residents definitely did not have the right to restrict who could travel the road, it just meant they had to pay for upkeep.
Someone mentioned about private roads on public land.. the Mt. Washington toll road is such an example of this kind of wackiness. If you're in the dirt you're on public land, but they somehow allowed Tin Mountain to own & control who can go up and down the paved road. Personally I'm not so crazy about this.. somehow I imagine if the road belonged to the Parks service like most mountain roads we would all be able to cycle it for $3 or something on any given day the rangers thought it was safe, like so many other New England summit roads. In a sense it is very similar (but worse) then this golf course since Tin Mountain indeed does permit cars to go up whenever it is safe.
Seramount
05-18-2012, 03:00 PM
...on the one hand a private road is a private road, on the other hand it reeks of snobbishness
reeks of snobbishness...?
so, what? as an arrogant roadie, I dig being snobby.
Chance
05-18-2012, 03:03 PM
Amen. If it is a private road they can do whatever they want. It is is sort of a douchebag move if they allow cars to use it publicly, but not bikes. But that is still their prerogative.
Agree it's private and their right, but your point is on point. People in general don't like to be singled out or discriminated against in any way. If they stopped traffic to everyone who doesn't live there it would be a little different than if they allow "public use of cars" but not bikes.
Don't know legal issues but can see where random use of power due to ownership can cause bad feelings. If they allowed women drivers to pass but not male drivers (because it's their private road, right?) would men get pissed? Some would for sure. Same if they went after any other group instead of everyone who is not a resident.
May be legal but it stinks a little nonetheless.
Cyclists need to stop being big dickheads, realize that they are members of the community and not just users of the road, and they need to treat others how they would want to be treated.
It's not just that cyclists need to be stop being dickheads. Everyone needs to stop being dickheads. A Massachusetts cyclist is a Massachusetts driver is a Massachusetts pedestrian. This place operates on it's own rules.
There is a crazy sense of entitlement in Massachusetts, along with parlor liberalism - everyone's a liberal until it's actually at their front door. Then mix in a ton of selfishness. Boston and its environs function in some bizarre parallel universe where people aren't accountable for their actions. I've seen it from the day I got here. But back to our regularly scheduled program...
I ride on the road in question regularly. Fine, it's a private road. You can have it - as long as you stop being an elitist a#$ho#% and stop spilling tons of pollution into our sky, land and water because of your overly consumptive lifestyle. Great, you bought your slice and now you're cutting everyone else out. What's that have to do with it? Everything. It's all one world.
On that road and every other, I try to be as courteous and law abiding as possible, but apparently it's because I'm not a local. Even when I am doing the right thing, I get hosed.
Yesterday I got pulled over, riding with two friends, for something another much larger group did. Would a cop pull over a car for something another car did? The cop was nice enough, but had no idea about bike specific law.
Today with the same two friends we had three different instances of outright belligerence directed at us. And it's National Bike Week.
This place is f&%#ed and the road closing is just another indicator.
End rant.
aaronv
05-18-2012, 03:14 PM
Agree it's private and their right,.
I am not sure this is the case in the state of Massachusetts as I mentioned in a previous post. Private designates that the upkeep is maintained privately, but from what I have read, that doesn't carry over to denying the right for the public to pass. The mileage in your state on this type of designation my vary.
I am not a lawyer.
Maybe I'm reading the article wrong, and maybe it's a little unclear but it sounds like they are not actually stopping Westford Residents or Country Club members from bicycling on that road in that time period...
If that is true it's even more weird.
Grumbs
05-18-2012, 03:25 PM
It's not just that cyclists need to be stop being dickheads. Everyone needs to stop being dickheads. A Massachusetts cyclist is a Massachusetts driver is a Massachusetts pedestrian. This place operates on it's own rules.
There is a crazy sense of entitlement in Massachusetts, along with parlor liberalism - everyone's a liberal until it's actually at their front door. Then mix in a ton of selfishness. Boston and its environs function in some bizarre parallel universe where people aren't accountable for their actions. I've seen it from the day I got here. But back to our regularly scheduled program...
I ride on the road in question regularly. Fine, it's a private road. You can have it - as long as you stop being an elitist a#$ho#% and stop spilling tons of pollution into our sky, land and water because of your overly consumptive lifestyle. Great, you bought your slice and now you're cutting everyone else out. What's that have to do with it? Everything. It's all one world.
On that road and every other, I try to be as courteous and law abiding as possible, but apparently it's because I'm not a local. Even when I am doing the right thing, I get hosed.
Yesterday I got pulled over, riding with two friends, for something another much larger group did. Would a cop pull over a car for something another car did? The cop was nice enough, but had no idea about bike specific law.
Today with the same two friends we had three different instances of outright belligerence directed at us. And it's National Bike Week.
This place is f&%#ed and the road closing is just another indicator.
End rant.
I really don't think this is a Boston thing. I think it's an everywhere thing. Weston has the highest per capita income in the state, so snobbishness will definately be on display. But...I've been around, and it's just as bad or worse in other places. Sometimes it's just another flavor of the same thing. It's seriously not Boston!
Actually so doing a little more research they are probably in the wrong.
The article in the OP paraphrases the Police Chief as saying it's a "private way".
A private way in Massachusetts means privately maintained, but open to the public. The residents have to pay the upkeep of the road, but cannot post "No Trespassing" signs on the road as the public has rights to travel the road.
The tradeoff for the residents in this case is that they do not have to maintain the road to the public standard and they do not have to pay taxes on the land for the road.
If they want to block the public it is no longer a private way, becomes something totally different, and they have to pay the taxes on the land.
I had never really understood this that well.. but they are really common in Massachusetts. I grew up on one of these roads.
From what I have found many, many people including police are confused about these rules.. a bit of pressure from a misguided town selectman who lives on the road might be all it took to close the road down. Perhaps most interesting is other then DUI it sounds like the police may not even have the right to enforce traffic laws on these roads.
It'd be interesting to hear from a lawyer or see if someone challenges it. Or it could be that the globe article is wrong and this road is not a private way at all and it's private property and it's really classified as a driveway.
torquer
05-18-2012, 04:06 PM
From the article: "Weston Police Sergeant David Tinglof ... confirmed that a detail has been hired by the club and residents to turn away non-club members and non-residents."
So if they've been hired, maybe it is being treated like a "driveway."
zmudshark
05-18-2012, 04:55 PM
And I thought AZ was weird.
I ride through many non-gated areas that have no trespassing signs at both ends.
I wonder if the police will let a car through, but not a bicycle? If so, I smell lawsuit.
cnighbor1
05-18-2012, 06:25 PM
In washinton state to keep a road private that has no gates etc the owner has to close once a year or it is no longer private My large apt. complex would do it once a year
Maybe check and see if that state has same laws and maybe it is public now that bicycles riders have used it so long
merlinmurph
05-21-2012, 06:33 PM
I just read the article again because I was going to send the link to some friends. It's different. There's a now a whole section with remarks from MassBike, and they removed the quote from the cop where he says bikes have to ride single file.
I used to ride in Weston a lot during my lunch rides because I worked in nearby Wellesley. Don't think I ever rode on Meadowbrook, though. If it's private, it's private - still a dick move.
Tony T
05-21-2012, 06:46 PM
The only way to counter this is to have a whole mess of Harley's roll through there at the same time every week.
It's a PRIVATE ROAD.
Join their club if you want to use their road.
"If it's private, it's private - still a dick move. "
Why? If cyclists are interferring with paying members and residents they should be banned.
eippo1
05-21-2012, 07:35 PM
It's a PRIVATE ROAD.
Join their club if you want to use their road.
It was a joke :rolleyes:
and I believe that others are right that it is a priate way because it is a public byway as well. The road is a road that happens to go up through the middle of the club, but the destination of the road is not the club.
There are tons of other roads in the area that go through the middle of clubs with no issues. I will say that the road is narrow, though, and a whole mess of bikes coming through acting like they own the place will certainly disrupt things. It's just funny and a bit sad that there can be no compromising anymore, but it certainly seems like assholes (on and off the bike) grow on trees these days.
jlwdm
05-21-2012, 07:57 PM
And I thought AZ was weird.
I ride through many non-gated areas that have no trespassing signs at both ends.
I wonder if the police will let a car through, but not a bicycle? If so, I smell lawsuit.
First you are trespassing.
Second what is the basis for the lawsuit?
Jeff
Ginger
05-22-2012, 06:40 AM
From the article: "Weston Police Sergeant David Tinglof ... confirmed that a detail has been hired by the club and residents to turn away non-club members and non-residents."
So if they've been hired, maybe it is being treated like a "driveway."
Who plows the snow on that road in winter?
If it isn't plowed, or they hire a detail for that too and the state/county/public service doesn't come by and take a swipe at it...then maybe it is a private drive.
(That doesn't always hold true...but usually, if the public services maintain the road, it's a a good bet it's a public road available for use by the public...generally...
there's probably some law that proves me wrong...)
merlinmurph
05-22-2012, 10:08 AM
"If it's private, it's private - still a dick move. "
Why? If cyclists are interferring with paying members and residents they should be banned.
Allow me to clarify my comment.
I understand that private is private and that they can most likely do whatever they wish.
This road is a little different than the normal private road, and I really don't know how much of the road is actually private. I'm assuming just a short section of it is. It's around 2 miles long and goes thru (not a dead end), connecting public roads. Traffic has been flowing thru here for decades just fine.
Again, I agree with their right to close the road to non-members. It is private. No argument.
It's a dick move because:
1. It is solely aimed at cyclists
2. They claim that carts are having trouble crossing the road because of all the cyclists. Please. Any time somebody makes false claims like this, your credibility goes to the sh*tter.
Weston's history with cyclists is not good. A few years ago, the town voted down having a bike trail be built on an existing rail bed. The bike trail would have provided a really nice east-west corridor for a lot of people to use. The claims were the usual - it would bring in tons of people, along with crime. Again, the usual false claims. This is one of those times the desires/needs of the greater community should override those of a single town.
Bottom line: Weston hates cyclists. If they could, they would ban bicycles from its roads. Seriously, they would.
Enjoy your ride,
Murph
aaronv
05-22-2012, 11:11 AM
My head is about to explode. Folks see the word 'private' and their first thought is
http://bluntobject.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/get-off-my-lawn.jpg?w=655
Is this road actually private property is the question. If this were a driveway, there would be no news story. The following forum member had a prior post which was a pretty good explanation of the issue.
Actually so doing a little more research they are probably in the wrong.
The article in the OP paraphrases the Police Chief as saying it's a "private way".
A private way in Massachusetts means privately maintained, but open to the public. The residents have to pay the upkeep of the road, but cannot post "No Trespassing" signs on the road as the public has rights to travel the road.
The tradeoff for the residents in this case is that they do not have to maintain the road to the public standard and they do not have to pay taxes on the land for the road.
If they want to block the public it is no longer a private way, becomes something totally different, and they have to pay the taxes on the land.
I had never really understood this that well.. but they are really common in Massachusetts. I grew up on one of these roads.
From what I have found many, many people including police are confused about these rules.. a bit of pressure from a misguided town selectman who lives on the road might be all it took to close the road down. Perhaps most interesting is other then DUI it sounds like the police may not even have the right to enforce traffic laws on these roads.
It'd be interesting to hear from a lawyer or see if someone challenges it. Or it could be that the globe article is wrong and this road is not a private way at all and it's private property and it's really classified as a driveway.
Viewing the road in question it is hard for me to see how it is a driveway.
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=Meadowbrook+Road+ma&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1920&bih=945&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=Jrm7T6XfDOja6gGl3LihCg&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=3&ved=0CEMQ_AUoAg
William
05-22-2012, 12:23 PM
I used to believe in the immutable word of the Law. That is until the night Mrs. Butterman was taken from me. You see no-one loved Weston more than her - she was head of the Women's Institute, chair of the floral committee. When they started the Town of the Year contest, she worked around the clock. I've never seen such dedication. On the eve of the judge's arrival, a group of cyclists came riding in. Before you could say 'cyclist scum' we were knee-deep in neon sublimated jerseys, bits of Cliff bar muck, riding two abreast and crusty Gu packs. We lost the title. And Irene lost her mind. She drove her BMW 6 Series Gran Coupe into Weston Gorge. From that moment on, I swore that I would do her proud.
It's all.....
http://boourns.cjb.net/pics/633843813416251630-forthegreatergood.jpg
William
Kevan
05-22-2012, 01:46 PM
I've had the opportunity to ride on a private road with a small group in a nearby community ( http://www.nytimes.com/1981/08/30/nyregion/usonia-community-remembers-its-past.html?pagewanted=all ) and was told by a resident to turn around and leave. We were more than halfway through the neighborhood and decided it was better we expedite our exit so continued on.
moose8
05-24-2012, 06:18 AM
for anyone interested the article appears to have been heavily revised:
http://www.boston.com/yourtown/weston/articles/2012/05/24/bicyclists_barred_from_private_road_near_weston_go lf_club/
I wonder if lots of people reading it is causing it to get rewritten? I think this is the third time.
moose8
11-19-2014, 01:52 PM
Kind of an old thread obviously, and probably OT, but kind of entertaining nonetheless. The club has apparently moved on from focusing on cyclists on their road to going after each other.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2014/11/19/weston-golf-club-denim-scores-bogey/oVbl9dNNTzkGyl8uIStlPN/story.html
odin99
11-19-2014, 01:56 PM
snobby golfers vs. snobby cyclists. the makings of a reality TV show...
Denim: not approved for either group.
josephr
11-19-2014, 02:12 PM
It's a private road. If the owners don't want bikers, then they can not allow them.
the anarchist in me wants to become a member and invite all my cyclist friends on a ride.
a company here put up a sign disallowing bikes on the main road into the facility even though several employees biked to work and were told they'd have to drive...that sign didn't stay up longer than a week.
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