zipp / enve

[molly47]

any body compared enves built with dt swiss hubs to the zipps firecrest 303s

test rode the zipps yesterday not 100 % sold ...I don't know of any demo enves so hoping someone has ridden both thanks

[azrider]

what didn't you like about the 303's ?

[Johnnyg]

any body compared enves built with dt swiss hubs to the zipps firecrest 303s

test road the zipps yesterday not 100 % sold ...I don't know of any demo enves so hoping someone has ridden both thanks
I have been riding Enve clinchers for 3yrs never have had to true only replace bearings, they have about 20,000 miles on them. Enveys are superior in every way IMO.

[firerescuefin]

I have been riding Enve clinchers for 3yrs never have had to true only replace bearings, they have about 20,000 miles on them. Enveys are superior in every way IMO.

Interesting. Can you please give me a first hand itemized breakdown on their current offerings.

Thanks in advance.

[Bruce K]

Enve Composites web site at www.enve.com lists all their products, specs, etc.

BK

[molly47]

the noise was my biggest complaint, they were fast and smooth.

accelerated well on the flats, before i purchase would like some opinions.

enve was my first choice with dt swiss 190 hubs ?

[firerescuefin]

Enve Composites web site at www.enve.com lists all their products, specs, etc.

BK

Bruce...I was hoping that Johnny, given his strong opinions, would be able to provide objective analysis of their current offerings. "better in every way" is quite a strong statement.

[forrestw]

I can't imagine what Enve could do to make the increased price over Zipps worth the difference. Zipp hubs have held up just fine for me, yes loud freewheels but less loud than the Campy hubs I ride. I've owned Zipps in 404 and 303 flavors, they've been great.

Haven't ridden Enve, but generally their technology just doesn't impress. Zipp's R&D is certainly solid, their work in developing optimal low-speed airfoils matches what I know about optimizing lift in sailboat racing.

What I do know about Enve's other developments doesn't impress. The 2.0 fork with a composite dropout strikes me as just stupid -- less expensive to make but there's no way that' s going to hold up as well over the years as a bonded metal D/O - imo.

[happycampyer]

Which models specifically are you comparing? I did a number of test rides recently on the Enve Smart 3.4's (built with DT 240's) and the Zipp Firecrests. They are both excellent wheels. They are very similar in terms of feel in crosswinds, have great braking (in both cases, a improvement over previous generations), and both have a very comfortable ride considering their stiffness. It was a very close call really, and I could have gone either way. I ended up getting the 303's for reasons that might not matter to someone else—I like the flexibility of being able to mix and match (303 front + rear, 303 front + 404 rear). I wish Enve made a 4.5. Unfortunately, since the rims are front- and rear-specific, it isn't possible to create a 4.6 with the rims.

Note that the profile of the front wheel of the 3.4's is only a little deeper profile than the Zipp 202 (35 mm vs. 32 mm) and the rear is the same depth as the 303 (45 mm).

I have a set of the 1.25's built up with the 190 hubs, a bit of a weight weenie project, if you will. They're great hubs, but in most applications I don't think they're worth the extra expense and you're probably better off with the 240's.

[DRietz]

What I do know about Enve's other developments doesn't impress. The 2.0 fork with a composite dropout strikes me as just stupid -- less expensive to make but there's no way that' s going to hold up as well over the years as a bonded metal D/O - imo.

Glad you added in that bolded part. Talk to a structural engineer about bonded joints in relation to a unidirectional single mold and your opinion might change.

Again, you guys all might want to ride these products before making such broad generalizations about which product is superior.

Would I ride either set if given to me for free? Hell yeah, I would. If I were spending my own money, would I support the SRAM conglomerate or a great made-in-the-USA company with outstanding product? Well. I'd much rather spend my own money on ENVE.

Plus I think Zipp hubs are the devil's spawn. But whatever. Some people like 'em.

[wooly]

Glad you added in that bolded part. Talk to a structural engineer about bonded joints in relation to a unidirectional single mold and your opinion might change.

Again, you guys all might want to ride these products before making such broad generalizations about which product is superior.

Would I ride either set if given to me for free? Hell yeah, I would. If I were spending my own money, would I support the SRAM conglomerate or a great made-in-the-USA company with outstanding product? Well. I'd much rather spend my own money on ENVE.

Plus I think Zipp hubs are the devil's spawn. But whatever. Some people like 'em.

Definitely not a Zipp pawn nor one for Enve. I've had Zipp 101's and some Ergott built 303's as well as Edge 45 clinchers. Impressed with both brands. I had convfersations with both companies' service departments and think they are both top notch.

Regarding your comment on "SRAM conglomerate", which products does Zipp or SRAM make that arent made in the US. I honestl don't know. Possibly their groups? I know their wheels are made in IN. I don't fault them for being successful. As for their hubs, I know they had some generations which had issues but their most recent iterations were rock solid but load when I had them.

Regarding happycampyer's comments - he's tried them both song a lot of other high zoom wheelsets and I trust his opinion. I say get what you like among the two if you're talking about tubulars. If clinchers, I wouldn't in either case.

[uber]

I have no experience with Enve, but I do own a pair of 303 Firecrests in tubular.
I do like them, and would recommend using 25mm tires to help protect the wide rim. Good luck.

[DRietz]

Regarding your comment on "SRAM conglomerate", which products does Zipp or SRAM make that arent made in the US. I honestl don't know. Possibly their groups? I know their wheels are made in IN. I don't fault them for being successful. As for their hubs, I know they had some generations which had issues but their most recent iterations were rock solid but load when I had them.

To be honest, I'm not sure of where SRAM manufacturing takes place, but Enve seems like a far more quality company to me based on the relative amounts of warranty calls I've made to each company.

[firerescuefin]

To be honest, I'm not sure of where SRAM manufacturing takes place, but Enve seems like a far more quality company to me based on the relative amounts of warranty calls I've made to each company.

Tells us of your warranty calls of like products...current Zipp Vs Current Enve wheels (within the last 2 years)...because that's what we're talking about....right...since Enve does not make any grouppos to my knowledge. Hard to compared high end wheels to all ranges of grouppos.

Do you sell both brands of wheels out of your shop (as in stock and sell a good amount)...that would surprise me.

I am sure Enve is in business "for the children"

[forrestw]

Glad you added in that bolded part. Talk to a structural engineer about bonded joints in relation to a unidirectional single mold and your opinion might change.

Actually probably not, I'm a mech E and have designed and manufactured bonded joints under far more stringent QA and regulatory requirements than any bike maker. I know a fair bit about what works and what doesn't. Probably 99.99% of carbon forks use bonded dropouts, Serotta, Se7en and plenty of other top frame builders successfully bond CF layup to their frames etc etc. I think it's a stretch to say that it can't be done and done well.

Again, you guys all might want to ride these products before making such broad generalizations about which product is superior.

Err, wrt wheels the main thrust of my comment was to price difference. I've seen enough reviews / opinions to believe that structurally Zipp and Enve are on a par each with the other. Specifically, however I did pick out Zipp's aero design and that I believe is better.

If I were spending my own money, would I support the SRAM conglomerate or a great made-in-the-USA company with outstanding product? Well. I'd much rather spend my own money on ENVE.

SRAM may change this but as of now afaik Zipp is entirely built in the US.

Also, Edge/Enve as far as I can tell on the internet archive has only been in business since '06 and has only been selling bicycle wheels since '09. Zipp's been building wheels since at least 1988.

Plus I think Zipp hubs are the devil's spawn. But whatever. Some people like 'em.

*Iyo* ? whatever. Unlike Enve they make their own and have refined the design over the years. The current crop get good reviews and by all accounts are a significant leap from the ones I've ridden quite happily ('06 and '08).

[Lovetoclimb]

Why no consideration for the Campagnolo Bora product line?

[Joachim]

Why no consideration for the Campagnolo Bora product line?

I've never seen any R&D data from Campagnolo regarding their Bora wheels...and I am a huge Campy fan. For the price of Bora's I expect some real data, besides marketing jargon.

[cfox]

How about this...they are both fine and more than any of us need. Seriously, you'd be happy with either as they are pretty similar products. Buy whichever one makes your pants tingle.

P.S. You can apply this to any high end bike stuff. It all works great these days.

[r.patrick]

I have 303 tubies with chris king hubs and i love them.......if I had enve's I would most likely love them.

[EDS]

How about this...they are both fine and more than any of us need. Seriously, you'd be happy with either as they are pretty similar products. Buy whichever one makes your pants tingle.

P.S. You can apply this to any high end bike stuff. It all works great these days.

You are ruining the purely emotional argument that is underway!

[DRietz]

Tells us of your warranty calls of like products...current Zipp Vs Current Enve wheels (within the last 2 years)...because that's what we're talking about....right...since Enve does not make any grouppos to my knowledge. Hard to compared high end wheels to all ranges of grouppos.

Do you sell both brands of wheels out of your shop (as in stock and sell a good amount)...that would surprise me.

I am sure Enve is in business "for the children"

Nope, I no longer work in a shop as of January. All carbon wheels were special order with the majority of floor wheels being Giant or Mavic products.

But, I have dealt several times with Zipp hubs (albeit probably the older generation) and I have dealt with more than a few cracked Zipp rims. Usually companies part of the SRAM conglomerate are pretty good with warranties - "Oh, you have 10 customers with full SRAM Red groups that failed? No problem, we'll send you 12. What? No, we don't need the broken parts back." Now it's frustrating because they no longer send rims to shops and require the hub to be sent back to Indiana. Such a waste of time and money for the customer IMO.

Dealt with Enve customer service once when we had a customer slightly delaminate a braking surface - they sent a brand new rim (along with copious amounts of SWAG) overnight and it was laced the next morning.

[DRietz]

Actually probably not, I'm a mech E and have designed and manufactured bonded joints under far more stringent QA and regulatory requirements than any bike maker. I know a fair bit about what works and what doesn't. Probably 99.99% of carbon forks use bonded dropouts, Serotta, Se7en and plenty of other top frame builders successfully bond CF layup to their frames etc etc. I think it's a stretch to say that it can't be done and done well.



Err, wrt wheels the main thrust of my comment was to price difference. I've seen enough reviews / opinions to believe that structurally Zipp and Enve are on a par each with the other. Specifically, however I did pick out Zipp's aero design and that I believe is better.



SRAM may change this but as of now afaik Zipp is entirely built in the US.

Also, Edge/Enve as far as I can tell on the internet archive has only been in business since '06 and has only been selling bicycle wheels since '09. Zipp's been building wheels since at least 1988.



*Iyo* ? whatever. Unlike Enve they make their own and have refined the design over the years. The current crop get good reviews and by all accounts are a significant leap from the ones I've ridden quite happily ('06 and '08).

Hey - I've used forks with bonded dropouts for the longest time. My point was that the Enve fork I've had for going on three years shows absolutely no signs of dropout wear. I was merely commenting on bound joints I have seen fail. For example. Vitus Carbones.

And yes, in my opinion (that's why I said "I think"). I'm pretty sure most of us are just talking out of our asses, so there are obviously differing opinions. I just happen to like one company better because of my experiences, and you the opposite because of yours.

To be honest, I just bought a used Nimble Fly wheelset. Should be plenty good enough for me...

[wooly]

Btw - I was told that Enve does make its stem off shore in Asia. In my conversation with them, they said the only reason why they make one is because some of their customers want a full Enve cockpit. I forget the guys name that I spoke with but he ended up telling me that he personally didn't see carbon as a good material for stems.

[molly47]

thanks hampycamper those are the the wheels I'm looking appreciate it.

I have the 190s now built on ambrosio rims and dts swiss RR1, I like them but was interested in trying an aero wheel ..thanks again JJ

[happycampyer]

You probably can't reuse the 190s with the 3.4 rims, since the lacing is 20/24, and the Ambrosios are probably 28/28. You could get the 1.45 rims in 28/28, but that's more of a 'cross build. I have a set of those that were a warranty replacement for a set of 1.38's. The 1.45's are still excellent wheels. If the 190's are 32/32, you are probably out of luck as far as rebuilding them with aero rims.

If they work and you decide to go that route and you want to keep the Ambrosios, you should rebuild them with a less exotic (and much less expensive) hub, like the Dura Ace in 28h.

[molly47]

thanks they are 28 hole, most likely will try to sell the 190s as i'm trying to downside my addiction:-)

would"nt mind checking out the chris king road hubs, they look pretty nice..


thanks again JJ

[Jack Brunk]

Zipp wheels can't hold or wear Enve's jock strap. I've ridden, owned both and $ack yourself off if you went with Zipp's but they will never be what Enve's are when it comes to top quality carbon wheels. Only speaking from riding both road and or mountain wheels. Score, Zipp sucks.
This is only one jemokes opinon.

[apeescape]

I have ridden and serviced both and the ENVE is a far superior product. Also the fact that you cannot get Zipp rims by themselves is a disappointment.

[norcalbiker]

the noise was my biggest complaint, they were fast and smooth.

accelerated well on the flats, before i purchase would like some opinions.

enve was my first choice with dt swiss 190 hubs ?

Molly47,
Have you read all the comments?

I have a set of Enve 45's with 190 hubs that I'm thinking of selling.
Ceramic Bearings. 20/24 Spokes count. Campy or Shimano (your choice)
Pm me if you want to discuss price.

[jerome]

I can't imagine what Enve could do to make the increased price over Zipps worth the difference. Zipp hubs have held up just fine for me, yes loud freewheels but less loud than the Campy hubs I ride. I've owned Zipps in 404 and 303 flavors, they've been great.

Haven't ridden Enve, but generally their technology just doesn't impress. Zipp's R&D is certainly solid, their work in developing optimal low-speed airfoils matches what I know about optimizing lift in sailboat racing.

What I do know about Enve's other developments doesn't impress. The 2.0 fork with a composite dropout strikes me as just stupid -- less expensive to make but there's no way that' s going to hold up as well over the years as a bonded metal D/O - imo.

Tech speaking ENVE using DT or CK hubs are superiors to me.
You can always recover a great pair of hubs to build another set of wheels of your choice with them in case you broke one rim.

Zipp I guess is all made in Asia, ENVE is made in the US that counts.

Any difference in the carbon fiber they use ? I do not know but certainly their is ? any better I do not know.

The best wheels I had ENVE, Easton (check Easton too), Hyperon.

[jerome]

thanks they are 28 hole, most likely will try to sell the 190s as i'm trying to downside my addiction:-)

would"nt mind checking out the chris king road hubs, they look pretty nice..


thanks again JJ

I am interested

how many km on the 190 ?
how much ?
are they 28/28

your weight, their use ?


thank

[jerome]

Why no consideration for the Campagnolo Bora product line?

too high

too stiff

Hyperon are better

[oldpotatoe]

Nope, I no longer work in a shop as of January. All carbon wheels were special order with the majority of floor wheels being Giant or Mavic products.

But, I have dealt several times with Zipp hubs (albeit probably the older generation) and I have dealt with more than a few cracked Zipp rims. Usually companies part of the SRAM conglomerate are pretty good with warranties - "Oh, you have 10 customers with full SRAM Red groups that failed? No problem, we'll send you 12. What? No, we don't need the broken parts back." Now it's frustrating because they no longer send rims to shops and require the hub to be sent back to Indiana. Such a waste of time and money for the customer IMO.

Dealt with Enve customer service once when we had a customer slightly delaminate a braking surface - they sent a brand new rim (along with copious amounts of SWAG) overnight and it was laced the next morning.

What he said. Altho 'some' here have some love affair for Zipp wheels and hubs, the bearings are SO tiny in there, and seemingly such a low quality, any moisture at all and you will be changing all 6.

[EDS]

Tech speaking ENVE using DT or CK hubs are superiors to me.
You can always recover a great pair of hubs to build another set of wheels of your choice with them in case you broke one rim.

Zipp I guess is all made in Asia, ENVE is made in the US that counts.

Any difference in the carbon fiber they use ? I do not know but certainly their is ? any better I do not know.

The best wheels I had ENVE, Easton (check Easton too), Hyperon.

Zipp wheels are made in Indiana.

[DjTristal]

I'd call Enve Customer service to see if they can help you locate the nearest dealer that may have wheels that you can demo.

[happycampyer]

Not sure if oldpotatoe's comment was directed at me, but for the record I don't believe that I have any bigger "love affair" for Zipp than I do for Enve. In fact, over the years I have owned and/or currently own more Enve wheels than Zipp wheels. I have owned 1.38's and 1.65's, and currently own 1.25's and 1.45's. For Zipp, I've owned previous generation 303's and 404's, and currently own 303 Firecrests.

[oldpotatoe]

Not sure if oldpotatoe's comment was directed at me, but for the record I don't believe that I have any bigger "love affair" for Zipp than I do for Enve. In fact, over the years I have owned and/or currently own more Enve wheels than Zipp wheels. I have owned 1.38's and 1.65's, and currently own 1.25's and 1.45's. For Zipp, I've owned previous generation 303's and 404's, and currently own 303 Firecrests.

Not directed at you at all....

For the gent that does bike stuff reviews who lives in Arizona. I see many Zipp wheels that need bearings, they don't do well in wet weather. Easy to change bearing tho, a plus.

[ergott]

Not directed at you at all....

For the gent that does bike stuff reviews who lives in Arizona. I see many Zipp wheels that need bearings, they don't do well in wet weather. Easy to change bearing tho, a plus.

Did you ever try putting in some Phil Wood bearings instead? The seals are better and should solve things.

[oldpotatoe]

Did you ever try putting in some Phil Wood bearings instead? The seals are better and should solve things.

NEVER use OE bearings. I use the higher end ones from QBP, Enduro. Always take the seals off new ones, grease in there, seal back on.

Once with new bearings, they 'seem' to do much better in the wet. It seems like the ones Zipp supplies are lower end type, even the 'ceramics'.

Phil has a lots of bearings but our bearing drawer, is kept stocked(30 or so sizes), so QBP does a good job of variety.

[ergott]

Are you still having issues after you replace the bearings? I don't see how the Zipp hubs would be more prone to water intrusion than any other typical, sealed bearing hub.