Wheel Building Question(s)

[yummygooey]

I started building my second wheelset yesterday. They're 20/24h Velocity A23's to DT Swiss 240's with Sapim Lasers and brass Sapim Polyax nipples. I'm no expert wheel builder... I'm building them more as an experiment and learning experience than anything else. I ran into a couple issues that I was hoping I could get some advice on.

1. Spoke wind up. I noticed the Lasers were winding up quite a bit. I stress relieved the spokes a few times throughout the tensioning process. Should I still be worried about compromising the strength of the spokes due to wind up?

2. I tensioned all the spokes to about 100kgf using a Park Tools tension meter. As I was trying to get a decent sized vertical hop out of the rim, I stripped (at least) two nipples. The nipples are not only rounded at the edge, but the hole that the spoke goes into is ovalized as well. Is this ok, or should I replace the nipples asap?

I used grease on the spoke threads, but forgot to put grease between the nipples and the rims (I did this last time I built a set of wheels too... doh!). Last time I built 32h track wheels and everything went really smoothly... but this time I've been running into a bunch of issues.

Hopefully I can get things sorted out... I'm not too concerned about having a perfect wheelset, but I hope to learn a bit more about wheel building and have a pretty sweet setup by the end of it.

[ergott]

Before the wheel has any tension I mark each spoke with a Sharpie so I can so when I've taken out all of the windup from the spokes.

Grease between the spoke/nipple pretty much a must.

You probably are using a 3 sided spoke wrench. Use one like this.
http://www.parktool.com/product/four-sided-spoke-wrench-sw-40

Pretty much all you need to know here.

http://miketechinfo.com/new-tech-wheels-tires.htm#Wheelbuilding

[echelon_john]

As far as the windup goes, they keys are lubrication on the threads, and tensioning VERY SLOWLY and correcting the windup as it's happening on every spoke, every time. E.g. at the first sign of windup, you should be reducing tensioning to 1/2 turn per spoke, going all the way around the wheel, and using the 'turn 3/4, then back off 1/4' approach.

The nipples you stripped definitely need to be replaced. I would recommend detensioning the whole wheel to the point where the spoke threads are JUST covered by the end of the nipple. Replace the deformed nipples and any others that are questionable. You could put a drop of linseed oil on each spoke where it enters the nipple to let it seep in. Then begin the tensioning process again per the directions above.

With an A23, you shouldn't be dealing with hops once there's much tension on the wheel; they can be pulled out before you get near 100kgf. Also, 100kgf is light tension for an A23, especially when you get lower in spoke count as you are. DS rear should be around 120+/- with no tire; it will drop with an inflated tire on it.

Good luck,
JC

[yummygooey]

It looks like I might be better off starting completely over then, huh?

My game plan would probably be to detension the whole wheel as you said. I'll remove each spoke, one-by-one, and apply more grease where appropriate (thank goodness it's only 20 spokes, haha). Then, rebuild.

[ergott]

It would be a good learning experience.

Just don't remove the spokes from the hub. You already bent them to shape.

[ultraman6970]

Agree with the other guys, but it depends on the builder as well... i barelly use just oil in the nipples and never had a problem. About tension... I do it by feeling and never got a problem either, people has been building w/o the tool since forever anyways.

yes replace the bad nipples.

Obviously the rear wheel drive side and non drive will have different tensions.

Another obvious thing is that rims are never perfect, some rims gives more than others (more flexible), so basically you end up with some spokes with more or less tension just because the rim is not perfect.

Another thing, everybody trues wheels differently, some techniques are common, some guys came up with their own way to do stuff so if you ask and get different asnwers it doesnt mean you are wrong doing it your way. In my case sometimes fixing my friends wheels i had to switch from my usual way to do things to another just because the darn wheel is not working the way I would love to.

Sometimes is not about pulling spokes, sometimes you have to loose them to get the hub to move (not the rim) to the center. Once is on the center start tightening spokes little by little.

That you end with a lose spoke doesnt mean the built is wrong, it means the rim has a problem, many times is just put some locktite to the head and just live with it. The wheel will get as true as the rim is.

Good luck :)

[echelon_john]

+1

it would be a good learning experience.

Just don't remove the spokes from the hub. You already bent them to shape.

[yummygooey]

I actually mounted a tire and rode the wheel for about 2 miles yesterday. It seemed to do fine, but I don't know how it would hold up in the long run.

[Peter P.]

1. You should be grasping the spoke with the fingers of your free hand for feedback as well as to prevent wind up. They make fancy tools to do the job for you or you can use a pair of pliers or a small block of wood with a slot cut in it.

2. Are the stripped nipples aluminum? Aluminum nipples suck, and aren't worth the weight savings. If the nipples are standard steel/brass plated/whatever they are and you still stripped them, then your tension is too high. As to the ovalized spoke hole; that's what is supposed to happen. The spoke hole deforms at the flange so there are no sharp edges to cut into the spoke elbow. It's proper engineering.

Grease between the nipples and the rim; eh. Nice touch but not necessary. Drip some oil at the contact spot and wipe away any excess. Just as good.

[yummygooey]

The nipples are brass. I greased the threads before, but it doesn't feel like the grease made it into the nipple...? The threads felt dry while I was loosening everything up. I think that's why they were stripping. I was tensioning the spoke to 16/17 on the Park Tools tension meter, which corresponds to about 100kgf for Lasers. Velocity told me I should be lacing these rims up to about 110-120kgf.

[oldpotatoe]

I started building my second wheelset yesterday. They're 20/24h Velocity A23's to DT Swiss 240's with Sapim Lasers and brass Sapim Polyax nipples. I'm no expert wheel builder... I'm building them more as an experiment and learning experience than anything else. I ran into a couple issues that I was hoping I could get some advice on.

1. Spoke wind up. I noticed the Lasers were winding up quite a bit. I stress relieved the spokes a few times throughout the tensioning process. Should I still be worried about compromising the strength of the spokes due to wind up?

2. I tensioned all the spokes to about 100kgf using a Park Tools tension meter. As I was trying to get a decent sized vertical hop out of the rim, I stripped (at least) two nipples. The nipples are not only rounded at the edge, but the hole that the spoke goes into is ovalized as well. Is this ok, or should I replace the nipples asap?

I used grease on the spoke threads, but forgot to put grease between the nipples and the rims (I did this last time I built a set of wheels too... doh!). Last time I built 32h track wheels and everything went really smoothly... but this time I've been running into a bunch of issues.

Hopefully I can get things sorted out... I'm not too concerned about having a perfect wheelset, but I hope to learn a bit more about wheel building and have a pretty sweet setup by the end of it.

1)Thin spokes wind up. I 'drop' the rim on a padded floor, rotating the rim, to take wind up out(ping, ping, ping). I also use a twist resist with thin spokes, to keep them from winding up.

2)replace the damaged nipps but take tension off the wheel before you remove the nipps to replace.

I use boiled lindseed oil between the spoke and nipple but none on Prolock nipps(like sapim, methinks). I drop oil between the nipp and the rim.

Gotta say, for an 'experiment', using low spoke count, very thin spokes, is a challenge to even experienced wheelbuilders.

Unless you are a very light rider, like in the buck 25 or 30 range, I wouldn't use lasers on the drive side even if these were 28 or 32h wheels. Certainly not on a 24h rear, IMHO.

[yummygooey]

Gotta say, for an 'experiment', using low spoke count, very thin spokes, is a challenge to even experienced wheelbuilders.

Unless you are a very light rider, like in the buck 25 or 30 range, I wouldn't use lasers on the drive side even if these were 28 or 32h wheels. Certainly not on a 24h rear, IMHO.

I had built a 32 hole wheelset before with double butted spokes that went super smoothly. I guess I underestimated the challenge of low spoke counts! My thinking is that if I can't get it down, I'll just take it to my LBS and have them do it for me.

I weigh 150 now but I'm shooting to lose 5 lbs and get down to 145, which is what I weighed when I was exercising 5+ times a week.