racing 'morals'.

[giverdada]

what is the expectation?

do you sit in and catch the draft and do small pulls and then sprint at the end? do you work to establish a break? do you work in that break? i've been seeing a lot of races recently where no one breaks, and no one works, and then it's a sprint and people work on edging each other out instead of powering up. i don't know anything about any of it, but i was wondering if there's some kind of code about racing where the racers are supposed to take pulls and make breaks and all that, or if it's just cool to ride around a track 11 times in the draft then come around for the bunch sprint.

[azrider]

firerescuefin has a great tag line: "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"

That's one of the greatest things (IMO) about bike racing is you can show up to a race with the fastest guys in the group, and have your plans go to $hit and no results to show for it. While other days, you can arrive feeling like crap, with no plan whatsoever and finish with clean wheels.

To answer your question: "I think it depends." It depends on how the race plays out, how you feel that particular day, what your role is (if you're part of team), and how those around you race.

Too many variables to give one definitive answer.

[rustychisel]

the attributed quote I believe comes from one M Tyson...

anyway, yes, too many variables. And don't forget every rider is different, some sprint, some will do anything to shake off the sprinters, etc

[the bottle ride]

The only real code of racing- race safely and consistently.

[Ti Designs]

It's called bringing the game to you. If you have a solid sprint but no recovery, forcing a break probably isn't gonna work for you. On the other hand, if you have no sprint to speak of, a pack sprint is the worst scenario. Then the question becomes how you bring the race around to you. There's no expectation that any racer work in a break, it's a gamble that could pay off, that's a reason to work. There are also team tactics at play. Back when I was racing I liked playing team player more than I liked being team leader because I was free of the responsibilities of a top finish and I could put everything into it at any point in a race if asked to do so (sometimes they didn't have to ask). I've always loved that part of racing, knowing that the guy you're trading pulls with is thinking about his finish while my team sprinter is ticket punching at the back...

[Black Dog]

It all depends on how you view winning. If winning is all that matters and how you do it does not matter then no code. If how you win maters then yes. I am not taking a position here. I do know that no one likes a sandbagger but there are ways to prevent such folks from winning. If a race is glued down and no one is wanting to work then it is a great time to make a big effort 800m or so from the finnish with the hope that everyone will be looking to the rider next to them to chase you down. When everyone is afraid to loose the rider who isn't often can take the win. There is a big difference between riding to win and riding to not loose.

[giverdada]

i understand the team thing, for sure. let the break go. having someone in the break gives the responsibility to other teams to chase, etc., etc. however, the races i've been in tune with recently are mostly first-season racers almost all racing as independents, or at least, without more than one or two 'teammates', that are more likely known faces without any kind of tactical bond to each other. so it's more like the rider (krabbe), it seems to my uneducated eye, and that's where my question is. one racer was saying that in new zealand where she spent the season last year, if you didn't pull in the break, you caught $hit for it and were promptly dropped or butted out or whatever. is there an obligation for the break to pull itself, assuming no teammates in the bunch? remember in The Rider when that kid takes no pulls and then pips 'em all at the line, and is the hero and the rider is all bitter because the kid does that every time? are we all bitter? or is that just racing? i think carmichael's time crunched model encourages taking as few pulls as possible... is there an 'honor' expectation to pushing and pulling?

[azrider]

what category racing are we talking about here?

while all this race analysis is great, it will hardly ever play out that way in Cat 3-5 races.

[tannhauser]

You can't compare pro/upper cat racing with a bunch of new guys without a team. Those guys are all trying to get a handle on the sport but once you've moved up the ranks a bit ideally the break will/should give the non-puller **** unless that non-puller is the strongest guy in in the field who will win any way the race plays out. Plus there is talking so they'll either work it out or not.

[HenryA]

Last two posts are really on point.
Lower categories rarely see anything like effective team tactics.
And you're not going to do much about what others do by hoping or expecting some kind of proper behavior by them anyway. So assuming you are strong enough to not be just hanging on by your fingernails, you can try to be an animator instead of a reactor.

If you're in a break and you want it to stay out you can try to organize it to work. Sitting there waiting for someone else to do so is usually futile. A suggestion like "hey if everyone takes a good smooth pull and we work together we can stay out" may work, then see if they're all playing nice. If not, there's nothing wrong with a little comment "how about doing some work asswipe". (positive)

Otherwise you can hang on the back of the break and hope it stays out, then do what you can. (negative)

I much prefer positive racing over sitting in. But I lost a lot.
;)

(and morals have nothing to do with this)

[avalonracing]

It sounds like you are describing most Cat 4 races. My advice... get stronger, go on a solo break and all those guys who wait for the sprint will be too afraid of not coming in second that they won't chase.

[Louis]

I asked that very question here back during the '05 TdF after Hincapie won a breakaway sprint after not having helped the breakaway itself (which was understandable, since Lance was back in the peleton).

The '05 thread (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=9696)

You'll notice a few names from the bad old days - that was before the big "split." Some of them were just as opinionated they as they are today...

[giverdada]

definitely cat 4 racing, not even mine, but i remain curious as to the expectations anyway. i remember something about voigt sitting up for a finish because he had done the same as hincapie and not worked at all in the break because of a teammate in the bunch. he seemed to think he was just doing his job and saw no glory in sprinting after not working. thanks for all of the replies. i'm learning lots here. and it's funny: i've been saying the same thing about being the aggressive one and going for it; everyone else will look around wondering what to do.

[Bob Loblaw]

A lot is made of sharing the workload and doing your part in the wind, but fundamentally it's a race. Before I put myself into the wind, I always ask myself, "Is this helping me (or my teammate) win?"

If the answer is no, then I won't pull. Period. If I find myself at the front, I soft pedal till someone comes around. Inevitably, someone gets antsy and does just that, even when it makes zero tactical sense for them to do so.

If I am in a breakaway that looks like it will stay clear, I will suck wheel as much as I can to stay fresh for the sprint. Does this make me unpopular? You bet it does. So does disrupting a chase to protect a teammate in a breakaway. So does elbowing your way into another teams leadout train.

OTOH, if I am in a breakaway that's in danger of being caught, I will ride myself into the ground to stay away. Likewise if the race is winding down and there's a breakaway that needs chasing down, I will kill myself trying to catch them. If no one is helping, I will do everything I can to get away and bridge.

The objective is winning, not impressing people with how hard you work. You could pull at 27 mph for 39 laps, and on lap 40 everyone will ride right around you. You might get a few"attaboys," but that is not the same as a podium spot. Being strong is part of winning, but unless you can just ride away from everyone at will, you also have to be ruthless and smart and saving your strength for the right moments.

BL

[ultraman6970]

Agree with all the comments, all depends of the ocnditions of the race, which are the tactics for that day plus luck.

Teams with a bad day wont win even if drafting the whole day, the other important factor about morals is that we are talking about a race... everything is permitted but just crash somebody. Remember a guy in argentina that used to spit the guys in the face :D So after seeing that pretty much you are prepared to anything and everything.

An extreme case, in a week tour i did, a colombian team showed up. Don't ask me why but those suckers looked like crapped in their shorts while racing because if you were seated behind them smell of crap was just awe full, never knew if it was a tactic to win the races or what but dammm!!! sure it worked because everybody was avoiding them!

[Tom]

They don't award style points. The idea is to get to the line first. Ride in a straight line, don't brake, don't spit or blow your nose on someone. If you're not a pro don't throw your water bottles in the woods. Don't ride across the yellow line and don't pass the lead car even if they're idiots and won't get out of your way. If you flat yell 'flat' and ride it out, don't stop in the middle of the field.

I think that's all you need to know about the rules.

I can't help you with tactics. Nothing I ever tried worked.

Oh, yeah, one other thing. Remember that everybody's got to go to work on Monday.

[tannhauser]

i remember something about voigt sitting up for a finish because he had done the same as hincapie and not worked at all in the break because of a teammate in the bunch. he seemed to think he was just doing his job and saw no glory in sprinting after not working.

He's Jens - of course he would have this attitude.

Professional until the end.

[victoryfactory]

Judging by the number of pro race finishes I've seen where there is a rider
finishing 2nd 3rd or 4th with one hand on the bars and one hand extended, palm up in the classic complaint mudra even the pro's don't always get this sorted out.

VF

[Dave B]

When I raced I tried not to throw up on other people.




I think that was appreciated by many.

;)

[avalonracing]

Remember a guy in argentina that used to spit the guys in the face :D

Wow... Someone might beat me in a sprint with that move... Of course they would also get the crap beaten out of them afterward.

[William]

Wow... Someone might beat me in a sprint with that move... Of course they would also get the crap beaten out of them afterward.

Dang straight!


When I started racing in college we had a cat 1 multiple State champ on our team as well as a cat 2 who was a Jr. Nationals champ and won a lot of races so we had good mentors to teach us fundamentals and tactics and essentially good cycling etiquette. Learning how to ride a straight line, how to ride elbow to elbow, and how to maneuver in the pack without taking others down. I think that's about the best you can learn to treat other right. Everything else is mind games and tactics. A few of us went from 5's to 3's in one season because we were winning a lot of races. We would beat up the 4/5's with basic tactical racing because frankly most of them didn't really know how to work together and were essentially out for themselves. Don't get me wrong, we were strong riders with big lungs, but we also knew how to work together. I remember one race at PIR where we were yo yo'ing the field until my team mate broke free on his own. He's a good TT guy so I knew he could stay out there if I could break up the chases. Every attempt I would cover and sit in and break it up. I had guys cursing me left and right but I would just smile and sit in and try to slow the pace. Finally a guy we knew from another team made a go and I let him knowing that he could bridge up and work with my mate to stay out. I was able to keep the pack off because no team was able to organize and beat me up. Just individuals making a go. My team mate won and I took third beating the pack in the sprint. We had guys that were cursing us during the race coming up afterward and saying how great it was watching us work them over. Kind of funny since during the race our teamwork to them was slacking and not working even though it was my team mate up the road.

One race at Mt. Tabor we had a break of about 15 riders or so going and one guy had appointed himself the leader. He kept barking at people he felt weren't working hard enough. Sometimes cursing at guys but really it was to mask the fact that he wasn't really pulling hard at all. We were coming down the hill and the course has a right hander that brings you to the straight before hitting the climb again, we had just come around the corner and this guy was on the left side of the course and he turns his head to the right and starts barking at a rider.....and realizes to late that as he looked right, he veered to the left...right off the course....and disappeared down the embankment. Everyone kind of looked around at each other for a moment and then burst out laughing. We laughed our asses off until we hit the climb again. Makes me laugh whenever I think about that one.








WIlliam

[redir]

Being in a break is kind of like the TV show survivor, you pretend to have friends but ultimately it comes down to a knife fight. The only morals are those of common decency and of course safety. IF you are in a good functional break and some one is trying to break up the rhythm or you just get sick of him dangling then the break has to collectively work to drop him which usually is not that difficult to do.

[c-record]

Great story. Reminds me of a young friend who was recently a very fast junior racer. He was off the front in a break with Cat 4/5s. He was a very strong and experienced rider/racer but didn't know how to respond when a guy 20 years older than him comes up and starts yelling at him for doing nothing wrong. Basically the guy didn't want to get beat by a kid so he yelled at him and used his age/volume to intimidate this junior out of the sprint. I've seen this guy be kind of a jerk before and I wouldn't feel bad about employing some dirty racing when we race CX together. Truly classy behavior some racers demonstrate.

Dang straight!


When I started racing in college we had a cat 1 multiple State champ on our team as well as a cat 2 who was a Jr. Nationals champ and won a lot of races so we had good mentors to teach us fundamentals and tactics and essentially good cycling etiquette. Learning how to ride a straight line, how to ride elbow to elbow, and how to maneuver in the pack without taking others down. I think that's about the best you can learn to treat other right. Everything else is mind games and tactics. A few of us went from 5's to 3's in one season because we were winning a lot of races. We would beat up the 4/5's with basic tactical racing because frankly most of them didn't really know how to work together and were essentially out for themselves. Don't get me wrong, we were strong riders with big lungs, but we also knew how to work together. I remember one race at PIR where we were yo yo'ing the field until my team mate broke free on his own. He's a good TT guy so I knew he could stay out there if I could break up the chases. Every attempt I would cover and sit in and break it up. I had guys cursing me left and right but I would just smile and sit in and try to slow the pace. Finally a guy we knew from another team made a go and I let him knowing that he could bridge up and work with my mate to stay out. I was able to keep the pack off because no team was able to organize and beat me up. Just individuals making a go. My team mate won and I took third beating the pack in the sprint. We had guys that were cursing us during the race coming up afterward and saying how great it was watching us work them over. Kind of funny since during the race our teamwork to them was slacking and not working even though it was my team mate up the road.

One race at Mt. Tabor we had a break of about 15 riders or so going and one guy had appointed himself the leader. He kept barking at people he felt weren't working hard enough. Sometimes cursing at guys but really it was to mask the fact that he wasn't really pulling hard at all. We were coming down the hill and the course has a right hander that brings you to the straight before hitting the climb again, we had just come around the corner and this guy was on the left side of the course and he turns his head to the right and starts barking at a rider.....and realizes to late that as he looked right, he veered to the left...right off the course....and disappeared down the embankment. Everyone kind of looked around at each other for a moment and then burst out laughing. We laughed our asses off until we hit the climb again. Makes me laugh whenever I think about that one.








WIlliam

[redir]

LOL that is a funny story ( well I hope the guy was alright).

I've had the barking guy in a few breaks too. I think typically that is the guy that is the weakest and is trying to make everyone work for him.

[avalonracing]

LOL that is a funny story ( well I hope the guy was alright).

I've had the barking guy in a few breaks too. I think typically that is the guy that is the weakest and is trying to make everyone work for him.

Not always... I do remember when I was doing the Tour de Toona once and shouting "Pull through or die!" to a group of about eight guys who had been sucking my wheel for about a mile. Of course I said it all in good fun.

[William]

LOL that is a funny story ( well I hope the guy was alright).

I've had the barking guy in a few breaks too. I think typically that is the guy that is the weakest and is trying to make everyone work for him.


Other than grass stains and a bruised ego the dude was fine.:D






William

[Ti Designs]

Oh, yeah, one other thing. Remember that everybody's got to go to work on Monday.

No, they don't. When I was racing I wanted a "cat 2 with a 40 hour/week job" catagory.