The wonders of Chinese manufacture

[forrestw]

This week I put a brand new compressed air tank into service only to find it is leaking at a pace of about .5 CFM at a weld.

This thing is nominally ASME standard / certified. The only plus side is Grainger the vendor says I can go ahead and repair the weld and they'll honor the warranty when we get some down time to return it.

Rapha and the host of bike companies that source their expensive products using cheap APAC labor can crow all they want about quality. To me this is just another instance in my (numerous) experiences of "It's so cheap we can afford the warranty costs that come with the territory".

[AngryScientist]

i hesitated to reply, but i will anyway:

i'm in the engineering field, and i specify and purchase large pieces of equipment fairly regularly. there's no doubt that you can get low-quality junk from almost any country in the world, and you can also get high-quality, great stuff from almost anywhere in the world too. it's all about good design, supply structure, oversight and QC.

sorry your tank leaked, but the above is the reality. in a global marketplace, if you're going to buy anything, it's on you to perform some due diligence, and research what kind of company you're buying a product from. blanket statements like Chinese made stuff is crap simply dont hold water anymore. you would be surprised at the quality of some of the goods that are coming out of China and the East today.

[ultraman6970]

QC problems??? Are u going to return it or something?

[67-59]

i hesitated to reply, but i will anyway:

i'm in the engineering field, and i specify and purchase large pieces of equipment fairly regularly. there's no doubt that you can get low-quality junk from almost any country in the world, and you can also get high-quality, great stuff from almost anywhere in the world too. it's all about good design, supply structure, oversight and QC.

sorry your tank leaked, but the above is the reality. in a global marketplace, if you're going to buy anything, it's on you to perform some due diligence, and research what kind of company you're buying a product from. blanket statements like Chinese made stuff is crap simply dont hold water anymore. you would be surprised at the quality of some of the goods that are coming out of China and the East today.

+1

China produces some absolute crap, and China produces some of the best stuff in the world.

The US produces some absolute crap,and the US produces some of the best stuff in the world.

I think I see a trend....

People who generalize that all Chinese products are crap remind me of the people back in the late 80s who'd laugh when you bought a Honda or Toyota because it was made in Japan...you know, 'cause they only make crap in Japan. lol

[MattTuck]

mmmmmm, Chinarello....


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_pBAn9A505ZE/TB29SYM8HaI/AAAAAAAAAH8/dfA3YNeqWCI/s1600/large_homer.drool.jpg

[jds108]

Now does anybody want to defend their IP perspective? I gots a beef with them on that front...

[AngryScientist]

Now does anybody want to defend their IP perspective? I gots a beef with them on that front...

that's a totally different topic. and i agree with you on that front.

[DY123]

@67-59 "China produces some of the best stuff in the world"

That sounds like a pretty big generalization. Care to elaborate?

[67-59]

@67-59 "China produces some of the best stuff in the world"

That sounds like a pretty big generalization. Care to elaborate?


Big generaization? Every country that has large manufacturing operatons probably produces something that's among the best in the world.

In the case of China, one of the best examples is Rapha. If you own some, you know it's as good as anything produced in Italy, Switzerland or the US. If you don't, then like others on this board, you'll assume it's crap because some of it is made in China.

[forrestw]

i hesitated to reply, but i will anyway:

i'm in the engineering field, and i specify and purchase large pieces of equipment fairly regularly. there's no doubt that you can get low-quality junk from almost any country in the world, and you can also get high-quality, great stuff from almost anywhere in the world too. it's all about good design, supply structure, oversight and QC.

sorry your tank leaked, but the above is the reality. in a global marketplace, if you're going to buy anything, it's on you to perform some due diligence, and research what kind of company you're buying a product from. blanket statements like Chinese made stuff is crap simply dont hold water anymore. you would be surprised at the quality of some of the goods that are coming out of China and the East today.
I agree on diligence and went with grainger / speedaire and ASME specification as the best choice from the vendors we work with.

Admittedly my rant above is overstated. However it matches what I've heard about quality problems with numerous other APAC built bike products. Hell, 2 weeks ago our team took delivery on uniform kits from Champion systems where all the mediums were shipped from China as smalls.

I remember the problems with western manufacturing in the 70s when Harley Davidson seemed unable to build a crankcase that didn't leak and fully agree no one has any permanent lock on quality manufacturing.

[sg8357]

I remember the problems with western manufacturing in the 70s when Harley Davidson seemed unable to build a crankcase that didn't leak

You know how hard it is to design a leak with just the right flow rate
to leave a proper puddle on the garage floor ? AMF had to find some
old retired British engineer to do it just right.

[rain dogs]

The people who are thinking critically enough to delineate between poor quality out of Asia and good quality out of Asia are also intelligent enough to realise that "Made in China" is a Euphemism.

It's a euphemism for a broken economic model which artificially deflates the cost of consumer goods. This "zero-cost-of-labour" model drives prices to subnormal levels resulting in lower quality "from almost any country in the world"

We've prioritized our model toward "cheapness" and not quality and the vast majority of businesses happily comply and reinforce this model for larger profit margins and shareholder returns.

Quality is a second or third tier priority. This idea has been perfected over millenia - finding exploitative labour which can benefit the bottom line.

We're in a funnel. A funnel of time and opportunity. Wherein the "walls" of the funnel are closing in on us as competition, exploitation and pollution increase while relatively resources, opportunity, flexibility and "stories with meaning" decrease (amongst numerous other factors)

The other day I regrettably bought a pair of jeans made in.... Lesotho! That tiny island country nested inside South Africa. Because my "Made in Canada" option has gone to Fiji. We'll never run out of countries with cheap labour sources to exploit and those cheap production/high revenue models erode quality as production is motivated by low-cost vs continuous improvement in product excellence at all levels of the supply chain.

Companies are competing for the bottom line, in a race to the bottom, and this dynamic is becoming more and more relevant and apparent over time.

Made in China is a euphemism for this system dynamic. We all know it and trying to defend these commercial practices with straw-man "quality" arguments is disingenuous.

My Humble Opinion.

[Grant McLean]

there's no doubt that you can get low-quality junk from almost any country in the world, and you can also get high-quality, great stuff from almost anywhere in the world too. it's all about good design, supply structure, oversight and QC.


The way i characterize it is that modern manufacturing companies
will make you exactly what you pay them for. Ask for low price,
they'll make you a low price product.

-g

[tannhauser]

Now does anybody want to defend their IP perspective? I gots a beef with them on that front...

Internet Protocol? Initial Public...?

Help me out.

[Joachim]

Internet Protocol? Initial Public...?

Help me out.

Intellectual property

[54ny77]

bravo!

that was a good one. :hello:

amf made a mean bowling ball.

a motorcycle...not so much.

You know how hard it is to design a leak with just the right flow rate
to leave a proper puddle on the garage floor ? AMF had to find some
old retired British engineer to do it just right.

[tannhauser]

Intellectual property

Grazie.

Oh yeah, HBT.

[toosahn]

The way i characterize it is that modern manufacturing companies
will make you exactly what you pay them for. Ask for low price,
they'll make you a low price product.

-g


Yup, money talks. But it's up to the state to make sure its people aren't reduced to mindless automatons (See Foxconn and Apple)

[TMB]

So,

The generally accepted method of posting in the forum now is to simply use any possible tenuous connection to simply make an out of the blue swipe at Rapha?

The OP is about a compressed air tank, and yet it turns into yet another Rapha swipe?

Pretty weak.

[El Chaba]

The people who are thinking critically enough to delineate between poor quality out of Asia and good quality out of Asia are also intelligent enough to realise that "Made in China" is a Euphemism.

It's a euphemism for a broken economic model which artificially deflates the cost of consumer goods. This "zero-cost-of-labour" model drives prices to subnormal levels resulting in lower quality "from almost any country in the world"

We've prioritized our model toward "cheapness" and not quality and the vast majority of businesses happily comply and reinforce this model for larger profit margins and shareholder returns.

Quality is a second or third tier priority. This idea has been perfected over millenia - finding exploitative labour which can benefit the bottom line.

We're in a funnel. A funnel of time and opportunity. Wherein the "walls" of the funnel are closing in on us as competition, exploitation and pollution increase while relatively resources, opportunity, flexibility and "stories with meaning" decrease (amongst numerous other factors)

The other day I regrettably bought a pair of jeans made in.... Lesotho! That tiny island country nested inside South Africa. Because my "Made in Canada" option has gone to Fiji. We'll never run out of countries with cheap labour sources to exploit and those cheap production/high revenue models erode quality as production is motivated by low-cost vs continuous improvement in product excellence at all levels of the supply chain.

Companies are competing for the bottom line, in a race to the bottom, and this dynamic is becoming more and more relevant and apparent over time.

Made in China is a euphemism for this system dynamic. We all know it and trying to defend these commercial practices with straw-man "quality" arguments is disingenuous.

My Humble Opinion.

Extremely well stated....

[toosahn]

Not just an opinion. There's theory behind your thoughts. Give Karl Marx credit where credit is due.


The people who are thinking critically enough to delineate between poor quality out of Asia and good quality out of Asia are also intelligent enough to realise that "Made in China" is a Euphemism.

It's a euphemism for a broken economic model which artificially deflates the cost of consumer goods. This "zero-cost-of-labour" model drives prices to subnormal levels resulting in lower quality "from almost any country in the world"

We've prioritized our model toward "cheapness" and not quality and the vast majority of businesses happily comply and reinforce this model for larger profit margins and shareholder returns.

Quality is a second or third tier priority. This idea has been perfected over millenia - finding exploitative labour which can benefit the bottom line.

We're in a funnel. A funnel of time and opportunity. Wherein the "walls" of the funnel are closing in on us as competition, exploitation and pollution increase while relatively resources, opportunity, flexibility and "stories with meaning" decrease (amongst numerous other factors)

The other day I regrettably bought a pair of jeans made in.... Lesotho! That tiny island country nested inside South Africa. Because my "Made in Canada" option has gone to Fiji. We'll never run out of countries with cheap labour sources to exploit and those cheap production/high revenue models erode quality as production is motivated by low-cost vs continuous improvement in product excellence at all levels of the supply chain.

Companies are competing for the bottom line, in a race to the bottom, and this dynamic is becoming more and more relevant and apparent over time.

Made in China is a euphemism for this system dynamic. We all know it and trying to defend these commercial practices with straw-man "quality" arguments is disingenuous.

My Humble Opinion.

[zap]

This "zero-cost-of-labour" model drives prices to subnormal levels resulting in lower quality "from almost any country in the world"



You are going to have to show me this "zero-cost-of-labour" model.

[DY123]

I was hoping for a better example. I don't consider sewing to be a measure of a country's industrial ability.

Have any others?

[tuxbailey]

I was hoping for a better example. I don't consider sewing to be a measure of a country's industrial ability.

Have any others?

From what I have read, Harbanero bikes are pretty good. Probably not Serotta or Lynskey level but for the price you get great quality.

How about all the stuff Foxconn make in China? The MB in my PC works great so are all the Apple products that millions use. Granted Apple products were not designed in China, but it certainly proves that they have the industrial manufacturing capability to build a quality product.

[El Chaba]

Not since the Ming dynasty has anybody moved the production of *anything* to China in order to improve quality.....

[leooooo]

@67-59 "China produces some of the best stuff in the world"

That sounds like a pretty big generalization. Care to elaborate?

Apple products, that many on our very own forums swear by.

I wouldn't know for sure though, I purposely avoid any products made in China.

[esldude]

Hey, you cannot always blame manufacturers only. You have to blame customers too.

Beyond that it isn't even always price.

Many years ago, went with a co-worker to look at new Harley Davidson motorcycles (yes by AMF). He decided that is what he wanted. In this HD dealer, in their show room, almost every single NEW Harley Davidson had an aluminum pie pan underneath to catch the oil drip. I told my friend, I think that tells me all I would need to know.

But you know what, he purchased one anyway. Dealer said they new what gasket to replace and fit it etc. It wasn't due to higher quality, it wasn't due to lower price (a well made Honda was cheaper). It was just somehow in his mind he wanted a Harley. When Jap companies started copying the V-twin, which I considered the only possible virtue of HD at the time, I wondered if that wasn't what would really kill the company. But nope, somehow has to be a Harley. Why I don't know? Mysticism maybe.

[67-59]

I was hoping for a better example. I don't consider sewing to be a measure of a country's industrial ability.

Have any others?

That's pretty funny. Ask for an example, get one...and then it's not good enough for you. And if you were paying attention, you'd even realize that my example was directly in response to the post that started this thread, which mentioned Rapha by name.

lol

[torquer]

Four years ago, there was a fatal crane accident in NYC that, upon investigation, was caused by a faulty replacement part sourced (over the internet) from a PRC "company" that was essentially a twenty-something with a computer.
The crane company employee (who would plead guilty to criminal charges) had minimal formal engineering training, and was under pressure to minimize costs. The seller had a brief period of employment with an actual producer, and shopped the order around with other factories in pursuit of the lowest price. Even getting acurate scale drawings of the required part (from either end) was a problem. A critical weld on the part, a turntable, failed, and two construction workers were killed.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/26/nyregion/scrutiny-falls-on-chinese-supplier-in-crane-collapse-case.html?ref=cranecollapseeast91ststreetnyc

So we can blame:
1. Cost-cutting and lazy American purchasers
2. Incompetant and amoral Chinese sellers
3. The internet

Actually, choice number three enables the first two. And the crane owner walked on manslaughter charges.

[rain dogs]

You are going to have to show me this "zero-cost-of-labour" model.

Not sure what you mean by this, and I don't want to assume, so perhaps you can elaborate.

What I mean by "zero-cost-of-labour" is not literally zero, but the goal.

In other words... it's the lowest possible cost of labour in respect to the final revenue generated which motivates the decision to use said labour.

See the This American Life episode which claims that the US (quite obviously) has the technological capacity to produce the iPhone (which generates revenue of about $450-$800) and could do so from a estimated low of $16 more than China to produce it, due to labour cost difference.

I mean, there are numerous examples. In 2005 Nike was spending about $1.50usd on materials AND labour for a pair of Air Jordans.

Labour becomes a non-factor in the competition equation, unless you are a competitor trying to pay fair labour.

[zap]

snip

Not sure what you mean by this, and I don't want to assume, so perhaps you can elaborate.

Labour becomes a non-factor in the competition equation, unless you are a competitor trying to pay fair labour.

Got it, we are on the same page with this.

You are correct, the goal is to have labour become a non-factor.

In the bicycle framebuilding world I often wonder what can be done in this area. Of course robots can braze but the up front costs are high.........

[rain dogs]

You are correct, the goal is to have labour become a non-factor.

And do you believe that this will result in a better product? or economy?

The issue in my eye is that people confuse human labour with inefficiencies in the processes they design.

They then further mistake all "human" aspect as one that is costly and invaluable. Either looking to replace them with "robots" or dehumanized labour to a pennies-a-day rates..."handmade" in China.

Then they try to apply those principles to Engineering, Design and Quality control, continuing their previous mistakes.

"As math and science talent accumulates abroad, companies do more of their hiring there, reducing demand in the U.S. That's partly why undergraduate engineering majors are a shrinking proportion of the total, down from 6.8% to about 4.5% over the past 20 years. Employers then claim they can't find engineers in the U.S. -- so they have to hire abroad." (http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/29/news/international/china_engineering_grads.fortune/index.htm)

You see, once the initial principle of devaluing human labour becomes the culture of one's business, it isn't long before the entire supply and product development chains suffer. Local economies suffer. Product innovation suffers.

If, instead, human labour is seen as valuable and rich, and a necessary part of a functioning economy, we can move beyond the rhetoric and focus on true inefficiencies that are greater, long-term, threats.

Inefficiencies like moving factories from China to Lesotho. Or like shipping products around the globe on cheap oil, when they could be made locally, or depleting resources with no long term vision for sustaining your resource pool - both natural resources, and human resources as well.

[tannhauser]

And do you believe that this will result in a better product? or economy?

The issue in my eye is that people confuse human labour with inefficiencies in the processes they design.

They then further mistake all "human" aspect as one that is costly and invaluable. Either looking to replace them with "robots" or dehumanized labour to a pennies-a-day rates..."handmade" in China.

Then they try to apply those principles to Engineering, Design and Quality control, continuing their previous mistakes.

"As math and science talent accumulates abroad, companies do more of their hiring there, reducing demand in the U.S. That's partly why undergraduate engineering majors are a shrinking proportion of the total, down from 6.8% to about 4.5% over the past 20 years. Employers then claim they can't find engineers in the U.S. -- so they have to hire abroad." (http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/29/news/international/china_engineering_grads.fortune/index.htm)

You see, once the initial principle of devaluing human labour becomes the culture of one's business, it isn't long before the entire supply and product development chains suffer. Local economies suffer. Product innovation suffers.

If, instead, human labour is seen as valuable and rich, and a necessary part of a functioning economy, we can move beyond the rhetoric and focus on true inefficiencies that are greater, long-term, threats.

Inefficiencies like moving factories from China to Lesotho. Or like shipping products around the globe on cheap oil, when they could be made locally, or depleting resources with no long term vision for sustaining your resource pool - both natural resources, and human resources as well.

All of your posts in this thread should be put into a .doc, to be copy and pasted into any number of threads as deemed necessary.

[DY123]

@67-59, I'm only replying to your original generalized statement that "China produces some of the best stuff in the world."

I'm still waiting for some examples of what that great stuff is?

@leoooo, Yeah Apple stuff is pretty good. I'll give you that, but is that the only example to back up the original claim?

[forrestw]

You know how hard it is to design a leak with just the right flow rate
to leave a proper puddle on the garage floor ? AMF had to find some
old retired British engineer to do it just right.
Having owned/maintained/ridden early 70s Nortons I can say that while brit iron of that vintage does like to leak, I would only go to HD engineers to maximize oil puddles.

[forrestw]

The people who are thinking critically enough to delineate between poor quality out of Asia and good quality out of Asia are also intelligent enough to realise that "Made in China" is a Euphemism.

It's a euphemism for a broken economic model which artificially deflates the cost of consumer goods. This "zero-cost-of-labour" model drives prices to subnormal levels resulting in lower quality "from almost any country in the world"

We've prioritized our model toward "cheapness" and not quality and the vast majority of businesses happily comply and reinforce this model for larger profit margins and shareholder returns.

Quality is a second or third tier priority. This idea has been perfected over millenia - finding exploitative labour which can benefit the bottom line.

We're in a funnel. A funnel of time and opportunity. Wherein the "walls" of the funnel are closing in on us as competition, exploitation and pollution increase while relatively resources, opportunity, flexibility and "stories with meaning" decrease (amongst numerous other factors)

The other day I regrettably bought a pair of jeans made in.... Lesotho! That tiny island country nested inside South Africa. Because my "Made in Canada" option has gone to Fiji. We'll never run out of countries with cheap labour sources to exploit and those cheap production/high revenue models erode quality as production is motivated by low-cost vs continuous improvement in product excellence at all levels of the supply chain.

Companies are competing for the bottom line, in a race to the bottom, and this dynamic is becoming more and more relevant and apparent over time.

Made in China is a euphemism for this system dynamic. We all know it and trying to defend these commercial practices with straw-man "quality" arguments is disingenuous.

My Humble Opinion.

Far better stated than my OP, thanks

[beeatnik]

not all labor is created equal

[67-59]

@67-59, I'm only replying to your original generalized statement that "China produces some of the best stuff in the world."

I'm still waiting for some examples of what that great stuff is?

@leoooo, Yeah Apple stuff is pretty good. I'll give you that, but is that the only example to back up the original claim?

Am I supposed to type R A P H A more slowly so you get it this time?

And no, I don't plan on giving you any more examples of great stuff produced in China. Not excited about getting into arguments with people who ignore the answers.

[CaptStash]

This week I put a brand new compressed air tank into service only to find it is leaking at a pace of about .5 CFM at a weld.

This thing is nominally ASME standard / certified. The only plus side is Grainger the vendor says I can go ahead and repair the weld and they'll honor the warranty when we get some down time to return it.

Rapha and the host of bike companies that source their expensive products using cheap APAC labor can crow all they want about quality. To me this is just another instance in my (numerous) experiences of "It's so cheap we can afford the warranty costs that come with the territory".

WAIT. STOP!!!

You are talking about a pressure vessel. The fact that it is already compromised is a huge warning sign, and welding on it is unlikely to be a good idea unless you are a certified welder, and even then not something I would recommend unless you have access to NDT. Catastrophic failure of a pressure vessel can easily result in a death. It just isn't worth it.

I am basically a safety weenie (of the maritime sort) these days and have seen enough of the unfortunate aftermaths of similar well meaning repairs to suggest it isn't a great idea.

CaptStash....

[Polyglot]

@67-59, I'm only replying to your original generalized statement that "China produces some of the best stuff in the world."

I'm still waiting for some examples of what that great stuff is?

@leoooo, Yeah Apple stuff is pretty good. I'll give you that, but is that the only example to back up the original claim?

All the best tennis racquets, squash racquets, badminton racquets...

[rdparadise]

My feelings are that China makes an awful large number of good quality products. In technology as already mentioned the entire Apple line of products which are frankly priced as premium items definitely are of a significantly high quality. I love my iPhone 4S and while I don't have an iPad, I've used them and feel that meet a need between the smart phone and laptop.

Lenovo bought IBM's thinkpad personal computer division in 2005. The thinkpad is still considered robust, high quality laptops and the highest degree. While they aren't the largest seller of laptops, (2nd world wide) they are really good quality. I've started buying them for the company I work for in the past year over HP which I had purchased previously.

Rapha, yeah, good, high quality but not overly sophisticated process.

China is indeed the Japan of 25 years ago. Lower quality, lower priced goods today and a dominating market position now and growing in the future. The currency issue is another item unfortunately driving a lot of demand for their goods. As this gets addressed and the Yuan is valued correctly, their price competiive advantage will evaporate. It's already happening in some areas.

Bob

[Rueda Tropical]

China is shifting it's model from lowest cost manufacturer of cheap consumer goods paid for in $USD to the developed world (with the US as it's most important market) to a supplier of more value added capital goods to the developing world paid for in RMB.

Yes, thanks to Walmart's trail blazing lots of companies in the last decades often traded quality for huge margin increases. I knew the management of a factory in a free trade zone in the Dominican Republic that made apparel for big US companies. There QC was stringent and the US customers where intolerant of anything but perfect output. They were horrified to see the crap that was being accepted from the Chinese factories that replaced them.

But that era is drawing to a close. Energy costs, logistics and advanced automation and process are replacing human labor costs as the major factor in manufacturing competitiveness. That means that you will see more manufacturing returning to developed nations that have lower energy costs, advanced innovative processes and educated work forces closer to market. China is striving to become a center for innovation to remain competitive and in many areas they are succeeding.

In short, the cheap crap from China meme is an argument over yesterday's economy. The world continues to change at a rapid clip. China, Brazil and India are very different countries today then the stereotypes in many peoples minds formed from decades old stale data.

[1centaur]

In short, the cheap crap from China meme is an argument over yesterday's economy. The world continues to change at a rapid clip. China, Brazil and India are very different countries today then the stereotypes in many peoples minds formed from decades old stale data.

Human nature is more enduring than cheap labor. Human nature demands more for everybody, whether the 1% or the 99%. "More" drives out cheapness, quality improves, labor costs rise, and the planet is a globe so new sources of cheap labor dry up eventually. It's a mistake to take a snapshot and draw conclusions about doom; understand the process, because it's been repeated many times and will be again. Made in Japan...Made in China...Made in Sudan..Made on Mars.

[soulspinner]

not all labor is created equal

This:hello:

[victoryfactory]

@67-59 "China produces some of the best stuff in the world"

That sounds like a pretty big generalization. Care to elaborate?

Some of the best high end home audio stuff is now made in China,
including the Krell integrated amps which get great reviews.

It just depends on who is designing the items and what they want. China is
a chameleon manufacturing wise and will produce whatever you wish on whatever
quality level you require.
The fact that most of what they produce is Walmart/plastic/dollar store crap
is just because there is a big worldwide demand for that stuff.

Human rights, environmental compliance and worker safety is another story...

VF

[Elefantino]

I remember back in time when "Made in Japan" was ridiculed. Japanese electronics? Junk. Japanese cars? Hahahahahahahahahahaha.

Hahahahahahahaha indeed.

We Americans are not the planet's only thinking beings. We just think we are. The Chinese will figure it out.

[zap]

And do you believe that this will result in a better product? or economy?



Examples abound throughout history.

As societies move upward (college grads are less likely to work in the Foxconns of the world even if the starting wage was CDN$11.29/hr) as it has in developed nations, less manual labour is key for economic growth. Quality is a process that requires teamwork from the top down. Some firms focus on quality more than others. What labour is worth is another discussion.

[forrestw]

WAIT. STOP!!!

You are talking about a pressure vessel. The fact that it is already compromised is a huge warning sign, and welding on it is unlikely to be a good idea unless you are a certified welder, and even then not something I would recommend unless you have access to NDT. Catastrophic failure of a pressure vessel can easily result in a death. It just isn't worth it.

I am basically a safety weenie (of the maritime sort) these days and have seen enough of the unfortunate aftermaths of similar well meaning repairs to suggest it isn't a great idea.

CaptStash....
Aye aye Capt :-)

"I" will not be doing the actual welding, that will indeed be a certified guy (who's worked @ se7en, IF and several other fb shops in the area)

I would in fact trust my own work in this case but happily don't need to. I also teach TIG, oxy-gas and stick welding and build frames which is far more demanding work than plugging a pinhole in a36 steel.

[CaptStash]

Aye aye Capt :-)

"I" will not be doing the actual welding, that will indeed be a certified guy (who's worked @ se7en, IF and several other fb shops in the area)

I would in fact trust my own work in this case but happily don't need to. I also teach TIG, oxy-gas and stick welding and build frames which is far more demanding work than plugging a pinhole in a36 steel.

I feel better. Sounds like you know of what we speak. Carry on then.

CaptStash....

[torquer]

[QUOTE=victoryfactory;1132642Human rights, environmental compliance and worker safety is another story...

VF[/QUOTE]
Yes, another story, but bound up in the same book.
Case in point is the mess we're in right now with Chen Guang-Cheng. Secretary of State is there trying to get cooperation on trade and diplomatic issues, and this blows up in her face. The fact that it's become a presidential campaign football over here only makes it worse.

[rain dogs]

In short, the cheap crap from China meme is an argument over yesterday's economy. The world continues to change at a rapid clip. China, Brazil and India are very different countries today then the stereotypes in many peoples minds formed from decades old stale data.

Examples abound throughout history.

As societies move upward as it has in developed nations, less manual labour is key for economic growth.

These are both good points, and we cannot predict the future. It's all easy for me to pontificate about the state of globalization, going forward, from my keyboard.

I do think that the past, in this case, is not the best predictor of the future. It's all too easy for companies to close shop and move to another cheaper locale.

China > Cambodia (assisted with the US trade agreement) > Vietnam (when the agreement expired, and the Cambodian economy collapsed) > Bangladesh > Lesotho.

Now, the next cheap option is just a pop-up factory and some file transfers away. As I said before, I expect we'll never run out of cheap labour options, and it's specious argument to assume that those cheap-labour countries will ever close the income gap between the few "have" countries and the nearly innumerable "have-nots." The "developing countries economic stimulus" is a lark in my mind, especially if the commitment is short term, as can be seen in Cambodia. These countries don't get a chance to develop as in the past, as development is a threat to the very labour that brought labour in originally. The bidding war takes that labour away.

In terms of China itself, as Rueda said it seems that country has done more to remain globally competitive long term. They've used the advantage of leveraging the largest population base in the world and already has positioned themselves to be much more than cheap labour. In fact, they own most assets of other "cheap labour" options, as well as "developed" countries.

Perhaps the "Made in China" euphemism, is more accurate as "Now, Made Over Where?"

This is an interesting discussion

[PQJ]

I remember back in time when "Made in Japan" was ridiculed. Japanese electronics? Junk. Japanese cars? Hahahahahahahahahahaha.

Hahahahahahahaha indeed.

We Americans are not the planet's only thinking beings. We just think we are. The Chinese will figure it out.

Doc: No wonder this circuit failed. It says "Made in Japan".
Marty: What do you mean, Doc? All the best stuff is made in Japan.
Doc: Unbelievable.

[DY123]

I’m not trying to convert anyone or change people’s minds. I’m just looking for and offering some alternative viewpoints. That’s why I asked someone to back up their statements with examples.

Rapha……. if that seals the quality argument for you great.

I have no idea what formed your opinions, but here is what formed mine. I studied engineering and business. Have a BS and MBA. Worked as a Product Designer, Product Manager, Marketing Manager and VP for companies ranging from $300,000 to $500 million in annual sales. Worked with, owned, or managed factories in China, Taiwan, Korea, Mexico and USA.

When we sat in meetings deciding where to produce things, I don’t remember one person ever choosing a foreign country because of their quality. It all boiled down to one thing and one thing only. All the other talk was just justification for the move overseas.

@Polyglot Do you really think they make the best tennis racquets in the world or are they just the only ones left making them? (thus no one to compare to)

Look up the history of the Wilson Prostaff (considered by many to be the best tennis racquet ever made)

[Polyglot]

@Polyglot Do you really think they make the best tennis racquets in the world or are they just the only ones left making them? (thus no one to compare to)

Look up the history of the Wilson Prostaff (considered by many to be the best tennis racquet ever made)

I can promise you that I know the history of the Prostaff (in its multiple versions) very well and have even been to the factories where most Wilson racquets are made. The Chinese racquets are precisely the only ones left because it is not possible to produce a better product anywhere else in the world for the same amount of money. Even the Prostaff is made in China. I can also guarantee that it is Chinese technology that makes the new "technology" in racquets possible. It is not a question of them simply implementing things designed elsewhere. That might have been the case 10 years ago but by now they have more knowledge and expertise than any else in the world in the area.

PS: Prince entered into chapter 11 this week...