1-legged drills no good?

[Bob Ross]

I vaguely recall not too long ago reading a compelling, well-reasoned arguement for why 1-legged drills are *not* recommended...not valuable at best, potentially dangerous at worst...but of course now I can't find the article nor anything to support that position. Anyone know what I'm talking about or have some good data points either way? Thanks.

[bart998]

I once had my left crank arm come loose during a long ride. Rode home right leg only. Knee swelled-up, put me off the bike for a month. I won't do it again.

[FlashUNC]

I do them on a trainer or rollers, but that would be about it. When I raced, team did one leg drills in a parking lot granny gearing it around.

I found they helped, but I wouldn't do them outside a pretty controlled environment.

[jr59]

Steve Hoggs; Maybe

[harryblack]

useless, potentially hazardous, waste of time and effort regardless. i also believe fixed gear riding for roadies is pointless but this is just silly. there are about 500 core strength, stretching, balance, myofascial release, cross training etc (nutrition, meditation) exercises you can do that are much more beneficial...

... i speak from dumb experience btw, being old enough to have trained since the toe-strap early '80s.

don't believe anyone who uses 'Power Cranks' either btw tho' they're few and far between (thankfully).

I vaguely recall not too long ago reading a compelling, well-reasoned arguement for why 1-legged drills are *not* recommended...not valuable at best, potentially dangerous at worst...but of course now I can't find the article nor anything to support that position. Anyone know what I'm talking about or have some good data points either way? Thanks.

[54ny77]

the image of guys in central park doing 1 legged drills while solo always brought a chuckle, bouncing around up harlem hill or by engineer's gate straightaway looking like they're humping the seat, all in the name of improved fitness...as directed by their $400/mo. online coach, of course.

:banana:

that said, they might work for some folks. more power to 'em.

[giverdada]

i like one-legged drills for perspective-gaining exercise. after i do them, i realize which leg i'm using more, how my balance is a little off, maybe my "stroke is not smooth...". whatever. just a test, and then i go back to normal riding. i've never seen an article on them though.

[93legendti]

I like them. I like doing them on slight inclines. They work for me.

[Ti Designs]

eating causes cancer too...

[flydhest]

useless, potentially hazardous, waste of time and effort regardless. i also believe fixed gear riding for roadies is pointless but this is just silly. there are about 500 core strength, stretching, balance, myofascial release, cross training etc (nutrition, meditation) exercises you can do that are much more beneficial...

... i speak from dumb experience btw, being old enough to have trained since the toe-strap early '80s.

don't believe anyone who uses 'Power Cranks' either btw tho' they're few and far between (thankfully).

I'd be curious to understand how you can be so certain about this. I'll admit to only having been a cyclist since the mid 1980s, not the early 80s, so I may have missed something.

Help us understand where you're coming from

[Bob Loblaw]

I am screwed.

:beer:

eating causes cancer too...

[Ti Designs]

useless, potentially hazardous, waste of time and effort regardless. i also believe fixed gear riding for roadies is pointless but this is just silly. there are about 500 core strength, stretching, balance, myofascial release, cross training etc (nutrition, meditation) exercises you can do that are much more beneficial...

This would be a good argument to have while riding bikes.

[flydhest]

This would be a good argument to have while riding bikes.

I suspect you would find the conversation a trifle one sided.

[tannhauser]

I'd be curious to understand how you can be so certain about this. I'll admit to only having been a cyclist since the mid 1980s, not the early 80s, so I may have missed something.

Help us understand where you're coming from

Look, I didn't want to pull rank but I've been training since the 70s so whatever I say goes, right?

[BobbyJones]

Well, I'm also old enough to have trained since the toe strap 80s and I can tell you whole heartedly that Powercranks have been one of the most beneficial things for my riding and running activities. And I too am speaking with experience- with Powercranks in particular.
(I'm not an evangelist, just getting tired of every know it all spouting their point of view as gospel. )

useless, potentially hazardous, waste of time and effort regardless. i also believe fixed gear riding for roadies is pointless but this is just silly. there are about 500 core strength, stretching, balance, myofascial release, cross training etc (nutrition, meditation) exercises you can do that are much more beneficial...

... i speak from dumb experience btw, being old enough to have trained since the toe-strap early '80s.

don't believe anyone who uses 'Power Cranks' either btw tho' they're few and far between (thankfully).

[Ti Designs]

I suspect you would find the conversation a trifle one sided.

Why is that?

[Ti Designs]

Well, I'm also old enough to have trained since the toe strap 80s and I can tell you whole heartedly that Powercranks have been one of the most beneficial things for my riding and running activities. And I too am speaking with experience- with Powercranks in particular.
(I'm not an evangelist, just getting tired of every know it all spouting their point of view as gospel. )

PowerCranks are the perfect example of why viewpoints are so different. My guess is that Mr Jones did the smart thing and put the bike with PowerCranks on a trainer, started out easy and worked his way up to doing mileage on the road with them. I can think of a half dozen people who put them on their bikes and went for a ride, then couldn't walk for a week and didn't ride for months.

If one legged drills are no good, I'm probably the worst rider on this forum. If one legged drills done wrong are no good, that's someone else's problem... In most cases, doing things wrong is bad - did I really need to write that?

[harryblack]

while everyone's physiology & psychology is unique, a lot of cyclists MISTAKE their 'esoteric' cycling endeavors (one legged no-hands power cranks on rollers) for the benefits they'd accrue simply by more/smarter training.

the 'build your souplesse' nonsense of fixed gear roadies is #1 canard BUT...

... if it gets them out of the house riding for two hours winter riding whereas they might only stand 30-45 minutes on the rollers or trainer, YEAH that's "beneficial."

tho' it also benefits ME and others when these winter heros are burned out by July 4 and sometimes even Memorial Day.

I can imagine conservative, progressive use of Power Cranks useful for a very few # of cyclists with particular strength issues but they're also totally unnecessary if you're able to both ride a geared bike and walk, do other forms of cross-training. If you LOVE to ride so much that riding more in any form is your joy (not you specifically Ti, I mean anyone), than yeah, their benefits are are greater than otherwise.

PowerCranks are the perfect example of why viewpoints are so different. My guess is that Mr Jones did the smart thing and put the bike with PowerCranks on a trainer, started out easy and worked his way up to doing mileage on the road with them. I can think of a half dozen people who put them on their bikes and went for a ride, then couldn't walk for a week and didn't ride for months.

If one legged drills are no good, I'm probably the worst rider on this forum. If one legged drills done wrong are no good, that's someone else's problem... In most cases, doing things wrong is bad - did I really need to write that?

[Ti Designs]

Given an hour to work with most customers on fitting their bike, I'll often spend time on the one legged pedal stroke drill for a number of reasons. The body is programmed to support itself by putting weight on the feet. When you stand or sit your feet have weight on them. The bike is the rare case where you're asking your foot to unweight something. Almost nobody does that by nature, most people leave weight on the foot at the back of the pedal stroke. First, that's wasting energy because you have to push that foot up and over with the other side - it's subtracting energy from the system. Second, it's not great for the knee because of the force vector being applied. Third, it's hard on the lower back and SI joint. If you have weight on the foot as the pedal is coming up, it's going to push the hip up on that side, the SI joint adjusts for this movement (80 times a minute) and the muscles that support the lower back have to work overtime. Lastly, there's the use of the quads. When I teach my pedal stroke class I have them extend from the quads over the top from 11:00 to 2:00. If the hip flexors aren't active, at 11:00 the foot is extending the lower leg from the knee and pushing into the pedal circle, not around it.

All of this starts by getting the hip flexors active and learning a muscle firing order. The one legged pedal stroke drill is the best way I know to teach this.

[BobbyJones]

I'm the first one to point out the simple formula of go faster = more riding + eating less but let's face it: I don't think anyone here is a pro. I'd bet not even you, hotshot. Your midseason callout of burnout is a joke and your expertise is even more laughable.

We're just all here playing in a big sandbox trying to have a good time with something we enjoy. Some ride a bike worth 15 grand, others obsess over cleat position and some even like to play EuroProRacer without ever seeing the ass of a fit Cat 3 racer. Let it go. We've heard it before.

The four most important words in cycling: Shut Up and Ride. Best advice i've ever gotten.



while everyone's physiology & psychology is unique, a lot of cyclists MISTAKE their 'esoteric' cycling endeavors (one legged no-hands power cranks on rollers) for the benefits they'd accrue simply by more/smarter training.

the 'build your souplesse' nonsense of fixed gear roadies is #1 canard BUT...

... if it gets them out of the house riding for two hours winter riding whereas they might only stand 30-45 minutes on the rollers or trainer, YEAH that's "beneficial."

tho' it also benefits ME and others when these winter heros are burned out by July 4 and sometimes even Memorial Day.

I can imagine conservative, progressive use of Power Cranks useful for a very few # of cyclists with particular strength issues but they're also totally unnecessary if you're able to both ride a geared bike and walk, do other forms of cross-training. If you LOVE to ride so much that riding more in any form is your joy (not you specifically Ti, I mean anyone), than yeah, their benefits are are greater than otherwise.

[Ti Designs]

and some even like to play EuroProRacer without ever seeing the ass of a fit Cat 3 racer.

It's 1:30am and all of the sudden things make sense!

[BobbyJones]

Some of us keep different hours than others. Should have read "ass end":)It's 1:30am and all of the sudden things make sense!

[harryblack]

BoJo-- You obviously don't race on the road because the # of dudes fried May-early July is SUBSTANTIAL; they might still in a number on but even by the limits of their genetics and pre-season aspirations, they suck. Some are able to rest and pull it together, many aren't.

Compare the line ups at all levels in March/April to August/September and tell me otherwise. I'm not talking people who bag the late season going to cyclocross either.

And they were ALL busting their ass in the winter, alternately working on their 'souplesse' and making sure they hit their intervals in LT SL zone "3," etc etc.

xxx

Ti, if you want to say, as you just did, that a basic one leg drill on a trainer has some benefit to neophyte riders just being fitted with sensitivity to their existing strength/flexibility issues... FINE, it's something they might not ever have considered if they're new to riding.

I'm assuming the original poster is an experienced rider that has decent bio-mechanics, however, and that for general fitness/training purposes, doing one-legged drills is silly--

Even one-legged drills with Power Cranks on rollers no hands while juggling three bowling pins.

I'm the first one to point out the simple formula of go faster = more riding + eating less but let's face it: I don't think anyone here is a pro. I'd bet not even you, hotshot. Your midseason callout of burnout is a joke and your expertise is even more laughable.

We're just all here playing in a big sandbox trying to have a good time with something we enjoy. Some ride a bike worth 15 grand, others obsess over cleat position and some even like to play EuroProRacer without ever seeing the ass of a fit Cat 3 racer. Let it go. We've heard it before.

The four most important words in cycling: Shut Up and Ride. Best advice i've ever gotten.

[flydhest]

Why is that?

My hunch is that you would drop him.

[Ti Designs]

My hunch is that you would drop him.

And the point of that would be??? At 47 I don't have the same fitness capacity that the kids I coach have. What I have going for me is my understanding of training and riding technique that I've spent the last 25 years working on. My job as a coach is to teach my riders what I know, which involves a lot of the technique drills that so many other riders discount as being pointless. In riding with my newer riders, the point isn't to drop them - that would be useless. The point is to be the best example I can be, which is why my form needs to be as good as I can make it. It's always form before effort, I'll often tell my riders to slow down on hills and concentrate on form because that's what gets speed later on. Some riders see the old guy having an easy time of any hill and never struggling and think "that's what I want to become" - those are the coachable ones. Others think it's all about the effort or the wattage number. More effort without pedaling technique is just a lot more wasted energy. I have both the lab test data and many examples of uncoachable riders to show that.



And they were ALL busting their ass in the winter, alternately working on their 'souplesse' and making sure they hit their intervals in LT SL zone "3," etc etc.

And this is what you get from being coached by a book or someone on the internet. It's one thing to say "do 4 hours at the low end of zone 3", it's another thing to get it right. I coach in person, on the bike, I've never seen anyone get it all right, which is why I drag myself out of bed to ride with them. Almost every one of them started out too hard, didn't set up a feeding schedule and geared in December like it was March. My riders spent all winter with me, 3-4 hours on the bike, Mon, Wed and Fri, small gear, eating every 30 - 45 minutes, going an average of 15.5 MPH. It's not about gaining speed, the term interval never came up. It's about getting the body to process calories, it's about taking what was learned in pedal stroke drills and making it second nature.

We had one guy who rode with us who never got that point. He was turning the big ring going down hills, shifting to much smaller gears and trying to spin up the hills. My riders were spinning along on the flats and downhills (I was on a fixed gear running 42x19) and learning how to produce enough torque to climb hills in the same gear. He thought he was much faster than anyone else there because he could go faster on the base mileage rides. We also had set feeding zones where we would slow down and eat, he insisted on pushing the pace there - uncoachable riders are annoying that way...

The hammer rides have started, he lacks the torque to keep up on the hills, he lacks the leg speed to push the pace on the flats, he lacks the power to respond to attacks and he lacks the tactical knowledge that should be telling him to sit in and hold on. Chances are he'll be spent by August. Base mileage done wrong is wasted time and energy.



Ti, if you want to say, as you just did, that a basic one leg drill on a trainer has some benefit to neophyte riders just being fitted with sensitivity to their existing strength/flexibility issues... FINE, it's something they might not ever have considered if they're new to riding.

I spend 90 minutes per week just doing one legged pedal stroke drills, so by "new to riding" you must mean less than 35 years, right???

You must be one of those people who thinks that humans have a natural pedal stroke, or perhaps the crank controls the motion and the muscles deliver power and somehow the timing takes care of itself. How does that happen? You're not alone in your assumptions, I've seen countless studies where they take a sample population and put them on bikes to test for something, assuming that everyone can turn a pedal about equally as well.

A few of my riders and myself are taking part in yet another study which involves strain gauge pedals and a computrainer. The computrainer is set in ergometer mode at a known wattage level, the pedals only tell force without vector, and the distance is known because there's a crank sensor. The original test made the faulty assumption that wattage from the pedals was just a calculation of force and distance - making the assumption that the vector was always tangent to the bottom bracket. What they found was that some riders showed lower average force on the pedals for the same wattage at the rear wheel. I took this as a chance to show what a good pedal stroke program could do, so I wrote up a new one leg pedal stroke workout which starts off in a really easy gear and goes up in gear and down in duration. I can now turn a 53x15 smoothly on my trainer for 20 seconds with one foot clipped in. In the test I produced almost 25% less force at the pedals for the same power at the back wheel than many of the others. A 25% gain is more than you're going to see from the best of training programs, so I feel I'm not wasting my time by doing on legged pedal stroke drills.


Let's plan on riding in August, OK???

[William]

Some people have no choice...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOG83-TwIuM

He's got a great stroke and a wonderful attitude.:cool:






William

[zap]

My take.......

One leg drills are fine if you want to understand what muscle's to recruit to go over the top. If you use spin scan or such device then you have the graphics.

Take what you learn from short, one leg drills and apply that (pedaling over the top) when using both legs. That way you are not tweaking the torso and/or adding stress to joints and/or sitting weird on the saddle.

So short one leg drills for folks new to cycling.

[rugbysecondrow]

I am no expert, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I do the one leg drills occasionally, they seem analagous to a fisting swim drill I do. I do a few laps with open hand, then a few laps with fists, then every few laps swim with one more finger until my hands are wide open again. It gives me perspective, I am able to feel the water, amost grab it as I pull through the water. My hands feel the size of catcher mitts when I am done. The one leg drills help me feel my stroke, be aware of it, a certain pedal dexterity I don't get from just riding. I find it is helpful, provides orientation for me.

That is my experience.

[cp43]

I am no expert, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I do the one leg drills occasionally, they seem analagous to a fisting swim drill I do. I do a few laps with open hand, then a few laps with fists, then every few laps swim with one more finger until my hands are wide open again. It gives me perspective, I am able to feel the water, amost grab it as I pull through the water. My hands feel the size of catcher mitts when I am done. The one leg drills help me feel my stroke, be aware of it, a certain pedal dexterity I don't get from just riding. I find it is helpful, provides orientation for me.

That is my experience.

I think this is the key. Riding with one foot clipped in is different from doing one legged drills. It's the concentration and mental effort that you put into it that give the benefit, not the act of taking one foot off the pedal.

Chris

PS: Fist drill is great. I've never tired opening my hand one finger at a time, I'll give that a shot tonight at practice.

[Fixed]

1leg riding some guys think any training on the bike is fun
Beats going to the gym for some guys
Cheers IMHO :)

[Fixed]

I am no expert, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I do the one leg drills occasionally, they seem analagous to a fisting swim drill I do. I do a few laps with open hand, then a few laps with fists, then every few laps swim with one more finger until my hands are wide open again. It gives me perspective, I am able to feel the water, amost grab it as I pull through the water. My hands feel the size of catcher mitts when I am done. The one leg drills help me feel my stroke, be aware of it, a certain pedal dexterity I don't get from just riding. I find it is helpful, provides orientation for me.

That is my experience.

One arm drills and catch up is part of most swimmers diet too
Much of a swimming workout is made up of drills to gain a feel for the water
Cheers

[zap]

I am no expert, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I do the one leg drills occasionally, they seem analagous to a fisting swim drill I do. I do a few laps with open hand, then a few laps with fists, then every few laps swim with one more finger until my hands are wide open again. It gives me perspective, I am able to feel the water, amost grab it as I pull through the water. My hands feel the size of catcher mitts when I am done. The one leg drills help me feel my stroke, be aware of it, a certain pedal dexterity I don't get from just riding. I find it is helpful, provides orientation for me.

That is my experience.

If you swam with one arm......that would be analogous.

Now, a better workout would be to take your hands off the drops, keep the torso in the same position and ride. It's a productive workout and can only be done if you are fitted properly.

[Mark McM]

The bike is the rare case where you're asking your foot to unweight something. Almost nobody does that by nature, most people leave weight on the foot at the back of the pedal stroke. First, that's wasting energy because you have to push that foot up and over with the other side - it's subtracting energy from the system.

Re-inventing the laws of physics, Ed? There is no lost energy here - the back foot is being raised while the front foot is descending, so the energy balance is zero - even if you're leaving weight on the back foot.

As you say, pedaling analysis (with instrumented force measuring pedals) has shown that many riders do leave weight on the back foot, and have not shown any efficiency advantage to "pulling up" (raising the back foot with the muscles of the rising leg). This kind of makes sense, if you think about. The human leg was evolved to have large, strong and efficient extension muscles (i.e. the muscles that push down on the pedal), and has smaller, weaker and less efficient flexing muscles (i.e. the muscles that raise the leg). Endurance power production is largely limited by aerobic capacity - there is only a limited amount of oxygen for power generation. Intentionally pulling up requires shunting oxygen away from the large, efficient muscles to feed the smaller, less effective muscles.

[flydhest]

Re-inventing the laws of physics, Ed? There is no lost energy here - the back foot is being raised while the front foot is descending, so the energy balance is zero - even if you're leaving weight on the back foot.


I think he meant loss of energy in the sense that if you are using your power leg to push your back leg up, some of what should be going to the rear wheel is instead being diverted to pushing up the back leg. If you can use muscles to get that back leg out of the way, the power leg can put all of its power to driving the bike.

Ti, there was no "point" in my forecast, merely my cynical prediction of how such conversations tend to go with people who seem not to want to learn. Just my experience being projected onto my expectations, but perhaps most importantly, I got to use a line from Casablanca, which was the real impetus for me posting the comment.

[rugbysecondrow]

If you swam with one arm......that would be analogous.

Now, a better workout would be to take your hands off the drops, keep the torso in the same position and ride. It's a productive workout and can only be done if you are fitted properly.



Maybe. The point is that the goals of the two are the same for me, developing a dexterity for the movement. I am not a master at either, but am a seeker/learner.

[Ti Designs]

Re-inventing the laws of physics, Ed? There is no lost energy here - the back foot is being raised while the front foot is descending, so the energy balance is zero - even if you're leaving weight on the back foot.

More of a communication problem, let me try again...

Physics types will be quick to point out that there are only minimal losses due to bottom bracket friction from pushing one leg up with the other. They have to be very quick to point these things out 'cause they get dropped, and they can't point these things out if they're not there.

We're talking about energy used by the body, not energy within a balanced rotating system. Most people not only don't use their hip flexors to get the pedal over the top, their muscles also resist the rapid change in hip angle which adds more resistance and lifts the hip as the pedal goes over the top. The next time one of my riders rides away from you, notice how the "HARVARD" on the back of her shorts doesn't move, her hips don't rock, her lower back muscles don't have to work to stabalize her spine...

[Ti Designs]

If you swam with one arm......that would be analogous.

And you would swim in circles and annoy everyone else.

[tannhauser]

The next time one of my riders rides away from you, notice how the "HARVARD" on the back of her shorts doesn't move, her hips don't rock, her lower back muscles don't have to work to stabalize her spine...

While the imagery is...thought-provoking and I get what you're saying, watching Fabian Cancellara from the rear he does this and the exact opposite.

I think there's more than one way to extract energy from the human system.

[Mark McM]

I think he meant loss of energy in the sense that if you are using your power leg to push your back leg up, some of what should be going to the rear wheel is instead being diverted to pushing up the back leg. If you can use muscles to get that back leg out of the way, the power leg can put all of its power to driving the bike.

But the other side of the coin is that if the back leg is using some of the available aerobic capacity to lift itself up, it decreases the amount of aerobic capacity for the forward leg to push down. Its a zero sum game - since aerobic capacity is the limiting factor, its a matter of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[forrestw]

Endurance power production is largely limited by aerobic capacity - there is only a limited amount of oxygen for power generation. Intentionally pulling up requires shunting oxygen away from the large, efficient muscles to feed the smaller, less effective muscles.
Wrong. The capacity of the cardiovascular system to deliver O2 exceeds capacity of the musculature to use it at anything you would consider an endurance pace. Perhaps at a sprint / V02-max pace the delivery capacity becomes an issue, but in fact the primary regulator of respiration isn't even O2 depletion but rather CO2 excess which is a safety mechanism guaranteeing O2 is always available in excess of requirement. (O2 regulation of breathing only takes over at very low oxygenation levels, for instance in emphysema.)

In fact the more muscles you can effectively recruit, the less you will have to draw on muscular reserves of glycogen and triglycerides so while the use of the hip flexors may not be optimal, they are nonetheless quite useful in keeping the bigger muscle groups in their aerobic range.

This is also the principle behind spinning vs grinding in a lower gear, relatively high leg turnover burns more energy per mile but because it's aerobic (i.e. burning effectively limitless supplies of fat), you can put more miles down at a better pace that way than grinding.

[Ti Designs]

While the imagery is...thought-provoking and I get what you're saying, watching Fabian Cancellara from the rear he does this and the exact opposite.

Take a closer look at the direction of the hips and the position of the pedals. Most riders waste energy by pushing one pedal over the top with the other, so you would expect the hip to rise on that side as the pedal comes up from 9:00 to 12:00. Watching some really strong riders you'll notice that the hip rises as the pedal is going down as a result of pushing harder than they are anchored in the saddle.

As for the debate about pushing down on the front of the pedal stroke vs. pulling up at the back, it's really not that simple. These are muscles, not solonoids, you don't have on/off control over them. I would go so far as to say you have far less control over your muscles than you think you have. I have the advantage of having to relearn how to walk in my 20's as a result of a back injury. Getting muscles to fire isn't that hard, put some tension across the muscle body and your brain tells you where it is. Worst case, use a tens unit to make the signal a bit louder. Getting your muscles to relax, or more to the point not engage a pull reflex is much harder. When you're pushing one side over with the other, you're not simply lifting the weight of your foot. Your body doesn't like movement that's not of it's own power, it's defense of this is to contract opposing muscle groups, what you might think of as tightening up.

[tannhauser]

Take a closer look at the direction of the hips and the position of the pedals. Most riders waste energy by pushing one pedal over the top with the other, so you would expect the hip to rise on that side as the pedal comes up from 9:00 to 12:00. Watching some really strong riders you'll notice that the hip rises as the pedal is going down as a result of pushing harder than they are anchored in the saddle.

As for the debate about pushing down on the front of the pedal stroke vs. pulling up at the back, it's really not that simple. These are muscles, not solonoids, you don't have on/off control over them. I would go so far as to say you have far less control over your muscles than you think you have. I have the advantage of having to relearn how to walk in my 20's as a result of a back injury. Getting muscles to fire isn't that hard, put some tension across the muscle body and your brain tells you where it is. Worst case, use a tens unit to make the signal a bit louder. Getting your muscles to relax, or more to the point not engage a pull reflex is much harder. When you're pushing one side over with the other, you're not simply lifting the weight of your foot. Your body doesn't like movement that's not of it's own power, it's defense of this is to contract opposing muscle groups, what you might think of as tightening up.

Um, ok. But this doesn't address Cancellara. His strong hip comes up sometimes so he "swims" from higher up in his torso. Seems like a style fairly unique to him.

[flydhest]

But the other side of the coin is that if the back leg is using some of the available aerobic capacity to lift itself up, it decreases the amount of aerobic capacity for the forward leg to push down. Its a zero sum game - since aerobic capacity is the limiting factor, its a matter of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

I think I disagree with you, so here's my thinking in two flavors. First, if I agree with the way you have framed the issue (see version two) then at issue is whether people can if not "get the leg out of the way" at least make sure that they are not putting in force at the wrong point in the stroke that counteracts the power stroke. In that case, in a zero-sum game, you are essentially learning how to pedal so that the back leg becomes passive. I have seen some awful pedalling where I do believe people are fighting themselves, and learning to pedal, if only to avoid using some of your "energy" to offset other bits of your "energy" you will be better off.

The second flavor, however, is that I don't think it is as simple and linear as you imply. If the power leg is at its limit, but the back leg muscles are nowhere near the limit (because they aren't doing much) then I don't think it is as simple as saying increasing effort on the back leg must decrease effort on the power leg. In my experience, and I think there is research to back this up, when a muscle group is at its limit, it does not mean that other muscle groups are also at the limit. So in terms of capacity, it is not zero sum. This isn't to say anything about the law of conservation of energy, because it is not as though I'm talking about the physics of it, but more the physiology of what muscles in the aerobic system can do. It takes very little (after you have learned how to pedal) to get the back leg out of the way, and the back leg is not at or near its limit. The power leg, on the other hand, is at or near its limit, so every little bit helps a lot there.

Anyway, that's the way I am thinking about it. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. That said, if I have got the facts wrong, there is another reason why this might be helpful. Sprinting, for example, is almost certainly not the most efficient way to ride, but sometimes what you want is not efficiency, but maximum output. Being able to recruit other muscles into the act, even if overall effort is limited by aerobic capacity, could still be helpful for particular efforts.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

[Mark McM]

Wrong. The capacity of the cardiovascular system to deliver O2 exceeds capacity of the musculature to use it at anything you would consider an endurance pace. Perhaps at a sprint / V02-max pace the delivery capacity becomes an issue, but in fact the primary regulator of respiration isn't even O2 depletion but rather CO2 excess which is a safety mechanism guaranteeing O2 is always available in excess of requirement. (O2 regulation of breathing only takes over at very low oxygenation levels, for instance in emphysema.)

Then how come pedal force analysis of elite riders show that they don't pull up on the back stroke any more than non-elite riders - they just push down harder on the downstroke?

"To get some insight into what is good technique, the renowned Dr. Ed Coyle and his cohorts published a notable paper comparing “elite national class” (group 1) and “good state class” (group 2) cyclists (3). What they found from a simulated 40k time trial on a laboratory ergometer was that the more powerful national class cyclists had higher peak torque values during the down stroke compared with the other group; i.e. the slower group pedaled in smoother circles compared to the faster group that relatively mashed (Fig. 1). Similar average economy (VO2 vs. watts) was seen in both groups."

Source: http://www.wholeathlete.com/assets/documents/pedaling_technique_smartt_09-06.pdf

[Ti Designs]

It takes very little (after you have learned how to pedal) to get the back leg out of the way, and the back leg is not at or near its limit. The power leg, on the other hand, is at or near its limit, so every little bit helps a lot there.

Can we test your assumption? Put a bike on the trainer, put it in a really easy gear, clip in with just one side and pedal for say 10 minutes. Let us know what you find out.

[flydhest]

Can we test your assumption? Put a bike on the trainer, put it in a really easy gear, clip in with just one side and pedal for say 10 minutes. Let us know what you find out.

For reference, I do one-legged drills most winters. What I said wasn't an assumption, it was a statement based on my experience. More importantly, however, it was in the context of the amount of power/effort whatever, being put out by the power leg when one is near maximal exertion. That was the context that Mark brought up and I was trying to talk to him about that. So, I don't mind saying that the amount of power being produced by muscles to get one's back leg out of the way is small compared to the amount of power being put out by one's power leg.

I would also note the parenthetical I put in. I do not think that it is easy for most people to do this, especially not new riders. My comment was about after one had learned how to pedal, which, in my book, is pretty close to the way you described things in the past about learning the firing sequence for muscles.

[harryblack]

We can probably wrap this up by saying, again, that one leg drills are still mostly USELESS for training purposes, just like fixed gear riding for roadies is mostly useless unless your point of comparison is being sedentary. There were and remain a half-a-jillion core strength, flexibility, stretching exercises more important than one-legged riding skill.

Ya'll can argue thermodynamics of pedaling until infinity but riding/racing a multi-speed bicycle on the road is NOT riding one legged in your basement-- there are plenty-- as others have noted-- of fast/strong people with less than 'perfect' pedal strokes, as defined by one-legged power crank advocates.

BRING BACK BIOPACE, ALL IS FORGIVEN.

[rugbysecondrow]

We can probably wrap this up by saying, again, that one leg drills are still mostly USELESS for training purposes, just like fixed gear riding for roadies is mostly useless unless your point of comparison is being sedentary. There were and remain a half-a-jillion core strength, flexibility, stretching exercises more important than one-legged riding skill.

Ya'll can argue thermodynamics of pedaling until infinity but riding/racing a multi-speed bicycle on the road is NOT riding one legged in your basement-- there are plenty-- as others have noted-- of fast/strong people with less than 'perfect' pedal strokes, as defined by one-legged power crank advocates.

BRING BACK BIOPACE, ALL IS FORGIVEN.


Restating your conclusion is no substitute for making valid points.

Usefulness is determined by the user and that specific users results. If rider A finds value in action X, then action X is useful to rider A.

[tannhauser]

Look, I didn't want to pull rank but I've been training since the 70s so whatever I say goes, right?

I agree that you should be able to pull rank, for the sake of re-stating things.

[Ti Designs]

For reference, I do one-legged drills most winters. What I said wasn't an assumption, it was a statement based on my experience.

Comparison of power output between the two legs aside, you understand the learning curve in one legged pedal stroke drills - most don't. I teach a pedal stroke class in the winter where week one is all what I call hip flexor abuse. It's lots of short segments of one legged pedaling, which for the new class is always a thunkfest - few people can even get the pedal up and over the top for 30 seconds. Each class starts with one legged pedal stroke drills, by week three you can't tell by the sound where the pedal is in the stroke, and they're not really concentrating on it. It's a steep learning curve and based on how much smoother riders are in the saddle, I'd say it's well worth the time investment.

We can probably wrap this up by saying, again, that one leg drills are still mostly USELESS for training purposes

And then there's that opinion...




I've been giving this argument between the physics of cycling vs the biomechanics of it, here are a few things to think about: First there is the state of any given muscle. It's not as simple as on/off, the body has a lot of control parameters which often get in the way. When I first started riding fixed gear (that useless winter training method), I was told to learn how to relax my legs for the downhills, so I spent the next 6 months learning how to relax. It seems a bit odd that it would take that long to learn how to do something I liertally do in my sleep, but control of the muscles is effected by external forces, and turning a circle at 160 RPM, there are a lot of those. I learned a bit more about relaxed states when I started to captain a tandem. In order for the captain to maintain control at low speed, the stoker must relax their legs. It sounds so easy...

The comparison between strenght of muscle groups is almost pointless. If you think you're going to add any significant power to the pedal stroke with your hip flexors, join a gym and plot increases in strength made on both the hip flexor machine and the leg press. The point of the one legged pedal stroke drills isn't to add power to the pedal stroke, at least not on a constant basis, it's to "unweight" the pedal at the top of the pedal stroke. The difference is how the body triggers muscles. The gravity fighting muscles of the lower body are very sensitive to what they see as weight on the feet - how you stand or walk around all day. If that weren't the case, a short lapse of focus would cause people to slump to the ground. On a bike the rider is asking his foot to come on far higher than when walking, far faster too. The body should react as if it was falling and resist this motion. I doubt you can turn off that reflex, unweighting the foot simply eliminates the trigger.

In the physics view of cycling, there's no comfort factor. Much of my technique training is for comfort on the bike on long rides. If my hips are getting pushed around with each rotation of the cranks, my lower back is taking a beating. Comfort = speed. If my back is feeling good, I'll contest a sprint with anyone. If my back is killing me, 15th place sounds just fine. My point here is that cycling is an endurance sport, what can be shown in a mechanical model may not work for the biomechanical long haul.

[forrestw]

Then how come pedal force analysis of elite riders show that they don't pull up on the back stroke any more than non-elite riders - they just push down harder on the downstroke?

"To get some insight into what is good technique, the renowned Dr. Ed Coyle and his cohorts published a notable paper comparing “elite national class” (group 1) and “good state class” (group 2) cyclists (3). What they found from a simulated 40k time trial on a laboratory ergometer was that the more powerful national class cyclists had higher peak torque values during the down stroke compared with the other group; i.e. the slower group pedaled in smoother circles compared to the faster group that relatively mashed (Fig. 1). Similar average economy (VO2 vs. watts) was seen in both groups."

Source: http://www.wholeathlete.com/assets/documents/pedaling_technique_smartt_09-06.pdf
I don't think that article means what you (or Michael Smartt) think it means (EF Coyle -- did you read it?).

At any rate, *my* response to you only picked out your assertion about O2 cycle (and tangentially the value of recruiting different muscle groups) Coyle did find that higher proportion of type I fiber was a key component of the performance of nat'l champion cyclists in his study -- which is part of what I was driving at in my comment.

The Coyle article was principally concerned with time trial performance at lactate threshold, i.e. highest possible output sustained for 1 hour. I don't think many cyclists are maintaing best form at those power output levels.

Ed states that in research where he participated he's observed greater delivery of power to the ground by improving technique. I hope that's published sometime so we can read it.

[Ti Designs]

Then how come pedal force analysis of elite riders show that they don't pull up on the back stroke any more than non-elite riders - they just push down harder on the downstroke?

So you're saying I should spend less time working on pedal stroke and more time selecting the right parents???

The OP of this thread asked if one legged pedal stoke drills were "no good". Given this forum and it's members, I don't see the question being "are one legged pedals stroke drills no good for elite level racers", it's more a question of value to the average rider. Clearly, to harryblack they are not (not sure which side of average he is). I'm not an elite level rider, but I coach them and ride with them (and hope to play one on TV some day). I need every advantage I can get. If the tiny gains from technique drills keep me one step ahead of my own age, they're well worth it. When that no longer works I'll get me some carbon wheels. When that's not enough I'll make sure their brakes are rubbing before each ride...