Independent Fabrication NOW

[jerome]

hello

I would like to have tips and your advice on what IF is doing now and where are they heading to since FireFly team got its way ?
Are they still up to the brand reputation ?
something of the past ?

what about FireFly ?

[maunahaole]

I have only seen pics. Seems like IF is doing great work. They are pretty active on the web with their current projects. Seems like Firefly is doing great work. Positive reports from their customers who post on the forums.

[the bottle ride]

Indy Fab is alive and very well- I would argue better today than they were a 18 months ago.

I am biased- I am long time fan of the brand.
I just had one built- she is a keeper.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7052/6894333339_d21964b94f_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486719@N00/6894333339/)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7041/6824085678_2ecea937fa_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486719@N00/6824085678/)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8005/7112642433_9011e6bd49_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486719@N00/7112642433/)

FireFly is an amazing bike building company as well. Major respect and admiration for them- I even have one of their bikes as a screen saver.
I just happen to like IF a litte better.

[MattTuck]

That middle pictures looks like some pretty nasty terrain. Where is that?

[the bottle ride]

That middle pictures looks like some pretty nasty terrain. Where is that?

45 minutes north of NYC- Blue Mountain in Peekskill.
Some of the best singletrack anywhere.

[Ti Designs]

Gary moved the company to NH with the idea of going direct to the public. I hear that hasn't worked out as well as planned. Many of the people who went north with IF for work have since returned, so I'm guessing production has been low. They have reopened a few retail stores as dealers, we'll have to see how that goes...

[don'TreadOnMe]

Bottle Ride, could you tell us about that sweet SS?
Is that a non suspension-corrected front end?
(Or simply a correct front end :-)

[Earl Gray]

Both make great bikes. It is a very tough market for everyone.

[tannhauser]

Gary moved the company to NH with the idea of going direct to the public. I hear that hasn't worked out as well as planned. Many of the people who went north with IF for work have since returned, so I'm guessing production has been low. They have reopened a few retail stores as dealers, we'll have to see how that goes...

This is just really unfortunate to say the least.

[DarrenCT]

Gary moved the company to NH with the idea of going direct to the public. I hear that hasn't worked out as well as planned. Many of the people who went north with IF for work have since returned, so I'm guessing production has been low. They have reopened a few retail stores as dealers, we'll have to see how that goes...

do you ever see the glass half full? IF is alive and doing very very well.

they have plenty of experienced workers. i'll be getting my new IF soon.

[Liberace]

Local shop here in Jersey just built up a huge Corvid for a customer. One of the nicest looking frames I've seen.

[jerome]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/images/smilies/smile.gif
I am a Moots lover as the RSL line up has been so innovative and their bikes are riding better than any one I have had so far matching my Serottas and Sevens and IFs easily.
The MootoX RSL is up to my Sola Olympic and the VaMoots RSL is beyond my beloved Legend Ti C4.
The CX RSL has no peer.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
I would like anyway to get a Deluxe because it was my dream 15 years from now (I am 39) reading Dirt Rag and dreaming of all those bikes I will never be able to afford. Not any more, but still I don't want to sacrifice the ride and the craft as I value bicycles a lot more today than ever, bicycles are my lifeline somewhere (simply stated saved my life) and I presume that I might not be able to get more in the future as Europe (and the world) is going south. Bicycles are an investment, none the less.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/images/smilies/confused.gif

Ti brought out a great point, as a company loosing so much of its staff, moving can keep up with its commitment at that level of craft and quality ?
It seems very difficult to achieve even more in a so competitive market, where cash might not be flowing as some wrote here.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/images/smilies/beer2.gif

[Ti Designs]

do you ever see the glass half full? IF is alive and doing very very well.

they have plenty of experienced workers. i'll be getting my new IF soon.

I see the glass as full as it is. By doing very well you mean they could produce a bike for you. Unless you seriously overpaid for that frame, it's not going to keep IF going for that long.

Moving hurt IF in two ways. First, they left almost all of their production staff behind. Some formed FireFly, which while slow to get moving will certainly take some sales from people who might otherwise buy IFs. Others, having been burned by the bicycle industry's buy-out and move tendencies before have taken jobs in other areas. Second, changing it's marketing to direct sales left it's dealers with inventory it didn't want. If you have a stock example of a bike who's biggest selling point is that it's custom, but there are no customs to be had from that shop, it loses it's value. Most former dealers discounted their IFs or put them on ebay.

I would love to see one of the larger local builders do well, but that takes time to establish the whole chain from builder to retail to service, and the local builders are making quick decisions that keep that from happening. Serotta made a major change in both finance and their bike line by going carbon - how did that go for them? Seven closed down their local retailers to open a coffee shop - care to guess on the sales delta there? IF up and moved without a second thought about it's staff (which has happend before when the company name was Fat City).

[Dave B]

IF bikes are amazing and I hope they will always be producing wonderful bikes. I spent a long long time as their biggest self appointed advocate. I had marvelous times with some of the staff and loved every bike I have ever purchased from them. Some of you are also enjoying my bikes I purchased from them. Whomever is there now, I hope you understand how important relationships are to us customers. I put many years and dollars into IF for that reason alone.


In addition I think Firefly has done an amazing job. Fast or slow to develop, I have the utmost love for Tyler. Not just his skill, which has few equals, but him as a person. Jaime and Kevin also have an intense amount of strong character and skill. Those three, along with the incredible supporting wives and friends have helped have turned Firefly into some special.

If/When I purchase a custom bike again it will be a FF. Simply because Tyler made it. I dont' care where he worked making frames I would want one of his bikes.

I didn't choose FF over IF and I think it is foolish to say one is better. Gary once told me that IF wasn't just one person, it is everyone. Whomever works there making bikes, answering phones, sweeping floors is part of the wonderful place IF has/can be.

FF is different, you are very aware of who is designing your bike and building your bike. You are buying into the person/people more so then with an IF. I think the bikes coming out of IF still look amazing. They truly are beautiful bikes from construction to finish.

With regards to FF, just look at their work, innovations, ideas, and passion for what they are doing. Just amazing ability and the freedom to try new things, which wasn't supported at IF.

The "Big Move" IF made was a decision not everyone liked. I have friends no longer working at IF. Some left the industry and are moving on with their lives and the others are killing it at FF. I hope Gary does well with IF as I would hate to see that company fail. The only thing he and I never saw eye to eye was the comment I made earlier about IF not being one/two people. For me it was just that. Lloyd, Joe, Clint, Leah, Tyler, Jamie, Kevin, etc helped form what IF was to me. With all due respect to others who were involved I still say IF thrived into it's glory as a result of these folks.

[the bottle ride]

To say the King is dead is wrong- The King is alive.

I have had many vintages of IF over the years- from back in the day Bracken vintage to present Gary vintage- and I would argue the craftsmanship is as good as it ever was and maybe even better due to the ability to grow and utilize certain tools that may not have been there prior to Haymarket.

To say otherwise clearly means you have not done your due diligence- look under the hood.

There is no special provenance with one mans hands versus another as long as the job is done right. My current IF- most modern vintage- is done right.

I just hope this thread does not turn personal with a tone of "one brand is better than the other"

Plenty of space in the ocean for all to swim.

[Kontact]

Sounds like IF and Serotta are making the same moves - toss the dealers, chop the staff.

We keep calling and emailing Serotta about the fork we ordered 3 months ago.

[Keith A]

Sounds like IF and Serotta are making the same moves - toss the dealers, chop the staff.

We keep calling and emailing Serotta about the fork we ordered 3 months ago.Have you tried using the email info@serotta.com? You might also try using their Facebook page at http://www.facebook.com/SerottaSport

[cfox]

Sounds like IF and Serotta are making the same moves - toss the dealers, chop the staff.

We keep calling and emailing Serotta about the fork we ordered 3 months ago.

As far as I know, to buy an IF, you still have to go to one of their many worldwide dealers. Gary did open a bike shop in NH that, incredibly, astoundingly, happens to sell IF bikes (among other brands). I don't think this amounts to them 'going direct'. The one I just bought was through a dealer in Connecticut. And, from all reports I've gotten, they are very busy building bikes...

[mistermo]

I like IF and wish them tremendous success. I was near Newmarket on a Sunday (about 1.5 mos ago) and peered through the window of their closed shop. It looks incredibly impressive and it's not hard to believe they've upgraded their manufacturing equipment in the process. The room where they make Baileyworks bags was very nice. From the street windows, one could see that there were employees inside working on a Sunday.

However, my local shop, here in CT, has phased out the line in favor of Guru. They'll still sell you an IF if you'd like, but they aren't pushing the brand as much as before. When I asked why, they said they had some problems with delivery times. Upon probing deeper, I think this occurred right around the time that IF was mid-move, which to me, makes sense.

I never saw the Somerville digs, but the Newmarket digs are very, very nice.

[Kontact]

Have you tried using the email info@serotta.com? You might also try using their Facebook page at http://www.facebook.com/SerottaSport

Yes. We were a dealer for over a decade. They simply have become completely uncommunicative.

[tannhauser]

Second, changing it's marketing to direct sales left it's dealers with inventory it didn't want. If you have a stock example of a bike who's biggest selling point is that it's custom, but there are no customs to be had from that shop, it loses it's value. Most former dealers discounted their IFs or put them on ebay.


I don't get this - our local dealers are still selling them as always: with a representative or 3 on the floor to ride, fitting done, off to IF for fab, returned and fine-tuned. Happy customer!

Sure the market is retracting but to say IF is going direct sales only isn't accurate.

[tannhauser]

I would argue the craftsmanship is as good as it ever was and maybe even better due to the ability to grow and utilize certain tools that may not have been there prior to Haymarket.



Yup.

[msl819]

where are those trails... that looks like a ton of fun to ride.

Indy Fab is alive and very well- I would argue better today than they were a 18 months ago.

I am biased- I am long time fan of the brand.
I just had one built- she is a keeper.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7052/6894333339_d21964b94f_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486719@N00/6894333339/)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7041/6824085678_2ecea937fa_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486719@N00/6824085678/)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8005/7112642433_9011e6bd49_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486719@N00/7112642433/)

FireFly is an amazing bike building company as well. Major respect and admiration for them- I even have one of their bikes as a screen saver.
I just happen to like IF a litte better.

[christian]

Blue Mountain Reservation, Peekskill, NY. TBR makes them look easy, though. From my meager mtb experience, they're not!

[the bottle ride]

Blue Mountain Reservation, Peekskill, NY. TBR makes them look easy, though. From my meager mtb experience, they're not!

Grazie homie.

Yes indeed- the great blue mountain.
It is in my top of places to ride in the world; I have ridden many-many places.

True bare knuckle boxing singletrack- so much goodness.
Photo dump.
http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1410/5177354718_6d6aacbf77_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486719@N00/5177354718/)

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3266/5773566998_c4c5efe0ec_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486719@N00/5773566998/)

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2554/4150541777_f4e93bcc22_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486719@N00/4150541777/)


http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3603/5845910226_0ce8f53e4e_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486719@N00/5845910226/)


http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2573/4200272171_1406d143ae_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486719@N00/4200272171/)

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3420/4570412393_773eb95d30_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486719@N00/4570412393/)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7049/6824120042_7d20117000_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486719@N00/6824120042/)

My lady loves it.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7093/7077502119_0382f83a2c_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/67486719@N00/7077502119/)

[jh_on_the_cape]

A buddy from work just received a new IF CJ made in NH. He bought it through the LBS. Same colors as the SS MTB, midnight blue. Looked good to me. He seemed happy with it.

I have a somerville IF and toured that factory when I was a student in Cambridge. I also met some of those guys at mtb races here and there over the years. Solid riders for sure.

I wish IF and FF success. Tough market these days. I would hate for either of them to end up like Fat City or Merlin or... a legend.

That said, there are SO many options. IF is very popular here, but there are certainly folks who see IF going to NH like Merlin going to TN.

But there are plenty of folks, like my buddy at work, who don't know or care about all of that history and rep and blah blah blah. They go into their LBS ready for that custom dream bike. They are not calling builders directly and doing all of that. For this guy, IF and LBS was a perfect combo. He is sooo happy with the bike, it is getting him on the back so much more. And isn't that what really counts?

[that guy]

The IF bikes at NAHBS were pretty stunning.

[Ti Designs]

Sure the market is retracting but to say IF is going direct sales only isn't accurate.

That was the original marketing with the new place opening in NH. It followed the same scenario as Serotta selling from their factory or Seven selling from their cafe, the shops were used as test ride centers for bike the customers were never going to purchase there. The result is local shops regaining their investments via ebay or craigslist. Shops outside the area didn't really notice much.

[DRZRM]

I picked up my wicked Lite from Chris Chance himself in Somerville in 1994 just before the Serotta buy out and the move to New York. I love Serotta's, I bought a Legend in 97 or thereabouts. But I was glad to have a Fat from Somerville and would have never much wanted one from New York, I'd have preferred a Serotta Ti Max. Now I have three Somerville built IFs (one steel, one ti and one stainless) and I love each of them, but I can't see buying one from NH. I'm waiting on a Zanc 29er, and if I get another custom someday, I'll likely go with Tyler at Firefly, I know I love his frames already. I'm not some fanatic about MA, and I can't exactly say why my loyalties stick the way they do, something to do with these companies turning away from their staffs that helped to build them up. I'll always have a great fondness for IFs, but I'll also likely see the ones with the MA stickers as more "legit."

[jh_on_the_cape]

I wondered about that direct sales thing. The new IF facility was hyped as a place you could fly into the local airport, get fitted, go riding on the trails right out back, etc.
I think they envisioned people flying in from China or something.

That was the original marketing with the new place opening in NH. It followed the same scenario as Serotta selling from their factory or Seven selling from their cafe, the shops were used as test ride centers for bike the customers were never going to purchase there. The result is local shops regaining their investments via ebay or craigslist. Shops outside the area didn't really notice much.

[jh_on_the_cape]

Made in MA is wicked pissah.
If you want real MA, were I grew up, check this out :banana:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWxsYqCAS-k

I agree. So many options out there. I would prob. not do the NH IF. Business is business, but people are people, too.

I picked up my wicked Lite from Chris Chance himself in Somerville in 1994 just before the Serotta buy out and the move to New York. I love Serotta's, I bought a Legend in 97 or thereabouts. But I was glad to have a Fat from Somerville and would have never much wanted one from New York, I'd have preferred a Serotta Ti Max. Now I have three Somerville built IFs (one steel, one ti and one stainless) and I love each of them, but I can't see buying one from NH. I'm waiting on a Zanc 29er, and if I get another custom someday, I'll likely go with Tyler at Firefly, I know I love his frames already. I'm not some fanatic about MA, and I can't exactly say why my loyalties stick the way they do, something to do with these companies turning away from their staffs that helped to build them up. I'll always have a great fondness for IFs, but I'll also likely see the ones with the MA stickers as more "legit."

[jerome]

Very interesting we all have your Church or near so.
I fully understand the connection we all have with a brand more than another.
I used to own bikes from most of them (not a FF yet) but beyond human connection, craft, emotion I also look at engineering.
Serotta and Seven were ruling Ti in the beginning of the 2000's.
Next Serotta did very well in Carbon.
Today I really think for good reason Moots is at the top on all aspect, they have kept their original staff, have pushed the material further, the bikes ride amazingly, the craft is better than ever all being made in house (not the case of the others)
Parlee is king in carbon fiber.
After there are plenty of nice bike but not advanced great piece of engineering bike.
that is my point, and I always look to get the most of my little euro-dolars.

[danielpack22@ma]

hello

I would like to have tips and your advice on what IF is doing now and where are they heading to since FireFly team got its way ?
Are they still up to the brand reputation ?
something of the past ?

what about FireFly ?

Here is my experience with both brands...
I currently own a Steel Crown Jewel, Steel Planet Cross and a Steel 29r single speed deluxe, while my wife owns a Ti Crown Jewel. All of these bikes are from the MA days (Matty, Lloyd, Jamie, Tyler, etc). I have a great deal of respect for the work that was done in the Somerville shop and after visiting with the builders several years ago, I feel a personal connection to the brand.

When I decided to have a titanium bike built, I considered going with IF again, but decided (rather quickly) to go with FireFly. I based my decision not on location, business model or any of the other reasons listed so far. And as FireFly was still brand new, I didn't even have a clear idea of what direction FireFly would take. But what I did know, from my earlier visits to IF, were the builders - Tyler and Jamie.

In April 2011 I had an opportunity to meet with Tyler and Jamie again, but this time in their new shop. I'll have to say, it was a real treat for me. To meet those guys is inspiring. Their excitement and passion for what they are doing is infectious. They are working and having fun. With each new bike they are expanding and testing new ideas. After spending the morning in their shop, I knew that I would have to have a FireFly. There simply was NO question.

As a customer, I could not have been any more pleased. Kevin and I went through several (a bunch) of iterations with the geometry and design. Replies to my emails could be counted in hours (sometimes minutes!) instead of days. They were simply the best experience I've had with a custom builder.

Here's my FireFly -

http://fireflybicycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/FF-034-STudio-2.jpg

[jr59]

Very interesting we all have your Church or near so.
I fully understand the connection we all have with a brand more than another.
I used to own bikes from most of them (not a FF yet) but beyond human connection, craft, emotion I also look at engineering.
Serotta and Seven were ruling Ti in the beginning of the 2000's.
Next Serotta did very well in Carbon.
Today I really think for good reason Moots is at the top on all aspect, they have kept their original staff, have pushed the material further, the bikes ride amazingly, the craft is better than ever all being made in house (not the case of the others)
Parlee is king in carbon fiber.
After there are plenty of nice bike but not advanced great piece of engineering bike.
that is my point, and I always look to get the most of my little euro-dolars.


I'm not quite sure this is all correct; Please see Mr Kent Eriksen.

That said; All the builders you have named, as well as a few more, can build you a very fine Ti bike. What it comes down to is your personal preference.

I don't think with the builders you have named, it would be very hard to go wrong. You are talking of the cream of the crop, the best of the best. IMO;
A good problem to have.

Send them all an email, or pick up the phone and call, well seeing as you are in europe, better email. They all will answer any question you may have, and more than likely, one will "sing" to you tru both his work, and his words.

Us telling you won't matter, because, no one builder "sings" to all of us the same way.

Anyway, good luck and post pics when you get it!

[Joachim]

more than likely, one will "sing" to you tru both his work, and his words.

Us telling you won't matter, because, no one builder "sings" to all of us the same way.



I really like this ^^. While I'm a huge fan of Firefly and what they are putting out, Tom Kellogg's opinions "sang" to my way of thinking. I think it's a two way street where you articulate, the builder understands, he adds his ideas and then you get a fine machine.

[mistermo]

Here's my FireFly -

http://fireflybicycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/FF-034-STudio-2.jpg

Firefly Club Racer? Rockin'!

[jr59]

I really like this ^^. While I'm a huge fan of Firefly and what they are putting out, Tom Kellogg's opinions "sang" to my way of thinking. I think it's a two way street where you articulate, the builder understands, he adds his ideas and then you get a fine machine.

Tom Kellogg sang to me as well, NO....That doesn't sound right! :banana:

Anyway, TK has gotten my $$$ for a Ti road frame that I love, and has my $$ $ for a rando style steel one yet to be made.

He doesn't make MTBs yet. Otherwise, I confuse the issue even more. :)

As I said, it's kind of hard to go wrong with the guys the OP is talking of.

[Ti Designs]

Bikes sing???

[Joachim]

Bikes sing???

No...the builder sings. If he wants my money he better hit those high notes. Bikes that sing? That will be preposterous. :)

[mistermo]

No...the builder sings. If he wants my money he better hit those high notes. Bikes that sing? That will be preposterous. :)

C King hubs sing like Rosanne Barr.

[Ti Designs]

No...the builder sings.

So if it takes the builder 4 1/2 years to learn the lyrics, you can expect a 5 year wait? It's all starting to make sense now...

[danielpack22@ma]

Firefly Club Racer? Rockin'!
Yep, I asked for a modern version of the classic English club racer. I love it!

[bargainguy]

First of all, I'm biased. I have three IF CJs -- two steel and one ti. Guess that says something.

I love looking at the blog on their website. They feature mostly one-off builds on the blog, and some of the stuff they do just makes my jaw drop.

Not just the builds, but the lengths they go to explore what can be done. Recently saw where a customer requested no paint -- bare steel. Most builders will tell you this is next to impossible, but apparently they managed to pull it off. Just one example of the kind of stuff they're up to.

Don

[bluesea]

Who did Indy Fab frame design before the move, and who does it now? IF has a great palette of custom colors, and that's a plus.

The Factory Lightweight used to be on the wish list. For options it would be nice if Firefly added a lightweight steel option, which I didn't see at their site.

[tttsmm]

Who did Indy Fab frame design before the move, and who does it now? IF has a great palette of custom colors, and that's a plus.

The Factory Lightweight used to be on the wish list. For options it would be nice if Firefly added a lightweight steel option, which I didn't see at their site.

It was Kevin Wolfson i believe, before the move. He was the one that signed off on my Ti CJ last year.

[cfox]

Who did Indy Fab frame design before the move, and who does it now? IF has a great palette of custom colors, and that's a plus.

The Factory Lightweight used to be on the wish list. For options it would be nice if Firefly added a lightweight steel option, which I didn't see at their site.
Kevin Wolfson, former, like tttsm wrote, and a guy named Jesse Fox now. Jesse is an excellent designer and a very friendly, easy to work with guy. The only steel FF works with is stainless.

[xjoex]

I just bought two Bailey Works bags, they arrived in less than a week and are great quality. I believe they have the same owner as IF.

I've seen a few new IFs and they look great. Dude moved the shop closer to his home, built an awesome space for people to work and shop. Congrats to the owner.

-Joe

[djg]

I really like this ^^. While I'm a huge fan of Firefly and what they are putting out, Tom Kellogg's opinions "sang" to my way of thinking. I think it's a two way street where you articulate, the builder understands, he adds his ideas and then you get a fine machine.

Now I'm feeling a little cheated. I drove all the way up there to Pennsylvania. We talked, he measured, I pedaled, he watched . . . sometimes he asked a question or two. I was up there for several hours, but no singing. Tom did make me a sandwich, however, so there's that.

[jerome]

I'll likely go with Tyler at Firefly, I know I love his frames already. I'm not some fanatic about MA, and I can't exactly say why my loyalties stick the way they do, something to do with these companies turning away from their staffs that helped to build them up. I'll always have a great fondness for IFs, but I'll also likely see the ones with the MA stickers as more "legit."


Firefly wil be your choice why ?
have you ever tried one ?
Moots ? very consistent very nice people too old fashion very modern engineering certainly the best now

[jr59]

Firefly wil be your choice why ?
have you ever tried one ?
Moots ? very consistent very nice people too old fashion very modern engineering certainly the best now

Seeing as your mind is made up, Why all the questions?

In your opinion, Moots is the best.

I'm sure they can build you the bike of your dreams, so again why all the questions?


As I said earlier, all the bike people that have been talked about on this thread and your Firefly thread can build a great bike.
Moots "sings" to you. That's GREAT! Get the stuff they need to fit you and wait for your dream to arrive. It will be great and we will all want to see pics when you get it done.

[jerome]

yes Moots sings to me but something else could too and why missing it.
I will be happy to learn from others and many discovering new frontiers.

I would like to know what FireFly is really up too how their bikes are made, how far they have push the technology, what they put in the bicycle ( o they have a special tubing set, where do they get them ...).

For IF we have heard that it was not really the IF we have known is that true ?
does someone know better ?

it is all what I mean, simple.

best

[tannhauser]

yes Moots sings to me but something else could too and why missing it.
I will be happy to learn from others and many discovering new frontiers.

I would like to know what FireFly is really up too how their bikes are made, how far they have push the technology, what they put in the bicycle ( o they have a special tubing set, where do they get them ...).

For IF we have heard that it was not really the IF we have known is that true ?
does someone know better ?

it is all what I mean, simple.

best

How many times can you ask the same question, that is the question.

If you are sincere about opening a bike shop, this is not the way to crowd-source real information. Nor would I want to buy a bike from a guy who gets all of his knowledge from the internet.

[oldpotatoe]

How many times can you ask the same question, that is the question.

If you are sincere about opening a bike shop, this is not the way to crowd-source real information. Nor would I want to buy a bike from a guy who gets all of his knowledge from the internet.

C'mon, a guy from France trying to perhaps open a bike shop. Why does it bother you he 'asks the same question'?

For the OP...on some of the brands you mention, you need to find out if they even sell to bike shops. Most of the small builders want to sell direct to the customer, maximizing their margin. Selling to a bike shop reduces their margin by some 30% plus or minus and the small ones may not be able or be willing to do that(Firefly, Erickson come to mind).

The interweb is a great source of info, good and bad. I would certainly use it as an efficient way to get loads of info, filter it through local conversations with people that understand retail, and throw the rest of the crappola out.

[tannhauser]

C'mon, a guy from France trying to perhaps open a bike shop. Why does it bother you he 'asks the same question'?

For the OP...on some of the brands you mention, you need to find out if they even sell to bike shops. Most of the small builders want to sell direct to the customer, maximizing their margin. Selling to a bike shop reduces their margin by some 30% plus or minus and the small ones may not be able or be willing to do that(Firefly, Erickson come to mind).

The interweb is a great source of info, good and bad. I would certainly use it as an efficient way to get loads of info, filter it through local conversations with people that understand retail, and throw the rest of the crappola out.

He may ask the question and I may question his asking the same question 3-4 times. It's no big deal to me. Trying to figure out the French market based upon Americans' take on it just strikes me as barking up the wrong tree.


It doesn't matter to me personally, but perhaps he'd think that this isn't the best way to do it based upon everyone's comments, including mine, that's all.

The thing is it is clear it is difficult for the OP to distinguish between the "crapola" and good info.

[djg]

yes Moots sings to me but something else could too and why missing it.
I will be happy to learn from others and many discovering new frontiers.

I would like to know what FireFly is really up too how their bikes are made, how far they have push the technology, what they put in the bicycle ( o they have a special tubing set, where do they get them ...).

For IF we have heard that it was not really the IF we have known is that true ?
does someone know better ?

it is all what I mean, simple.

best

I think it's potentially useful to seek out opinions in places such as this, but only as a drop in the ocean of your decision-making. Ultimately, you have to do some leg-work and face-to-face to see what will work for you.

I have a friend with a new (this year) Moots Ti road bike -- looks proper, and nicely made, and she loves it. Moots fans often seem to be big fans. Is there any objective sense in which it's the best possible bike? Heck no. As somebody who is not a builder, or a designer (or a welder from some other industry), was it obvious to my eye that the Moots was better than all sorts of alternatives? No, not really. My last Ti bike was a Serotta (stock); my next one is a Spectrum. No regrets or envy on my part, nor, on the other hand, any conviction that somebody else couldn't reasonably choose a Ti frame from another, such as Strong, Bedford, DeSalvo, Kish, IF, or . . . back to Moots.

As as been asked already, will firm F do business in France? On what sort of terms or time-table? What are the tax or tariff consequences of importing? What else are you going to offer, and how will this fit into your overall plan?

In terms of how far anybody pushes the technology envelope . . . I think that this is one of those areas where some smaller builders and every large one has a story or two to tell. Some of the stories are things they really believe, some are marketing drivel, and none tell the whole story of what makes for a good frame-set or bike (or a bad one).

[pdmtong]

Is thier cache for US made custom in europe?

it seems there is no cache for euoipean custom in the usa based on the complete lack of mention of any eu/uk custom shops on this forum and others.

rather than ask these general questions of which brand, i think OP should figure out which if any brands he suggest have cache and can sell in in europe, and then dig deeper intot the businsss model each producer would have with his propsed shop.

Old Potatoe hit on this, and I agree. Its a pretty critical piece of the plan

I also agree with Tannhauser that this thread is tiring and of limited value since there just isnt an answer to the question proposed. And, it seems to me, what we are answering really isnt core to the OPs ability to profitably sell bikes othis customers.

We all can universally agree that given a good fit, any of these shops can build a bike that will ride great. So now what? I think it really depends on the europena customer appetitie for US custom and the terms of business. Only he can answer that, not us

[cfox]

Is thier cache for US made custom in europe?

it seems there is no cache for euoipean custom in the usa based on the complete lack of mention of any eu/uk custom shops on this forum and others.

rather than ask these general questions of which brand, i think OP should figure out which if any brands he suggest have cache and can sell in in europe, and then dig deeper intot the businsss model each producer would have with his propsed shop.

Old Potatoe hit on this, and I agree. Its a pretty critical piece of the plan

I also agree with Tannhauser that this thread is tiring and of limited value since there just isnt an answer to the question proposed. And, it seems to me, what we are answering really isnt core to the OPs ability to profitably sell bikes othis customers.

We all can universally agree that given a good fit, any of these shops can build a bike that will ride great. So now what? I think it really depends on the europena customer appetitie for US custom and the terms of business. Only he can answer that, not us
Some brands are pretty popular in England and Asia. IF has had a full page ad in every issue of Rouleur ever published. I'm pretty sure they have a decent sales presence overseas.

[10-4]

However, my local shop, here in CT, has phased out the line in favor of Guru. They'll still sell you an IF if you'd like, but they aren't pushing the brand as much as before. When I asked why, they said they had some problems with delivery times. Upon probing deeper, I think this occurred right around the time that IF was mid-move, which to me, makes sense.

Your shop made a bad move if they are phasing out IF in favor of Guru based on delivery times. I've been around 2 dealers in the last two years that have stopped selling Guru all together based on terrible delivery times. Of course, they also had some major issues with the alloy BB inserts in the carbon bikes coming looks and rotating, so that may have had something to do with it as well.....

If you really wanted to know the truth, Guru just offers better margins than IF, so the shop makes more money.

With that said, I just recently took delivery of an SSR from IF. I was quoted 6-8 weeks but since I went with a raw frame it ended up showing up in about 3.5-4 weeks. Tough to beat that!

[jerome]

How many times can you ask the same question, that is the question.

If you are sincere about opening a bike shop, this is not the way to crowd-source real information. Nor would I want to buy a bike from a guy who gets all of his knowledge from the internet.
Are you the kind of people who see the life always in a dark way ! never happy.

:confused:

You can take your knowledge from every where, and internet is certainly a good place for that, try to explain to us here that we are dummies and that we should give up cycling due to your incompetences, what are you doing here, losing your time with us ? Hope you are not looking for good tips ...

You should ride more it helps...
have a great one.
:beer:

[jerome]

Some brands are pretty popular in England and Asia. IF has had a full page ad in every issue of Rouleur ever published. I'm pretty sure they have a decent sales presence overseas.

IF is not found in France, Italy and Spain now.
May be there is no need for them to be here those depress markets, but it is large population and in France you have amateurs for customs bikes.

When you carry a brand over sea quality is even more important. First import bikes have to comply with strict EU standards and for your customers it is very expensive to ship back a frame in the US.

What I am wondering about is if IF is still in the top 5 of what people like most.

My top 5 will be:
-Moots
-Seven
-Parlee
-FireFly
-Pegoretti or yes ... IF (Deluxe Ti, or XS)

[jerome]

I think it's potentially useful to seek out opinions in places such as this, but only as a drop in the ocean of your decision-making. Ultimately, you have to do some leg-work and face-to-face to see what will work for you.

I have a friend with a new (this year) Moots Ti road bike -- looks proper, and nicely made, and she loves it. Moots fans often seem to be big fans. Is there any objective sense in which it's the best possible bike? Heck no. As somebody who is not a builder, or a designer (or a welder from some other industry), was it obvious to my eye that the Moots was better than all sorts of alternatives? No, not really. My last Ti bike was a Serotta (stock); my next one is a Spectrum. No regrets or envy on my part, nor, on the other hand, any conviction that somebody else couldn't reasonably choose a Ti frame from another, such as Strong, Bedford, DeSalvo, Kish, IF, or . . . back to Moots.

As as been asked already, will firm F do business in France? On what sort of terms or time-table? What are the tax or tariff consequences of importing? What else are you going to offer, and how will this fit into your overall plan?

In terms of how far anybody pushes the technology envelope . . . I think that this is one of those areas where some smaller builders and every large one has a story or two to tell. Some of the stories are things they really believe, some are marketing drivel, and none tell the whole story of what makes for a good frame-set or bike (or a bad one).

Good point.

No for sure I won't take my final decision only on yours opinions but it helps and you can find you afterwards looking at something you won't have though of necessary first.

I do not agree that a bike is a bio, I am looking at the craft but not only a well executed bike by a bike company ride like no others.
Moots are awesome the RSL are the best, they have made great improvement in the Ti world.
Seven Axioms and Solas are awesome to me too.
Serotta I used to love my Legend Ti, my Ottrot was good but got old too fast, the paint tarnish, the clear tubes became pale ...
The bike look is second in my choice.

Yes it is expensive to import bikes in EU for sure, shipping taxes ... but as a shop you get them 40% off generally compare to retail price.

[jerome]

Here is my experience with both brands...
I currently own a Steel Crown Jewel, Steel Planet Cross and a Steel 29r single speed deluxe, while my wife owns a Ti Crown Jewel. All of these bikes are from the MA days (Matty, Lloyd, Jamie, Tyler, etc). I have a great deal of respect for the work that was done in the Somerville shop and after visiting with the builders several years ago, I feel a personal connection to the brand.

When I decided to have a titanium bike built, I considered going with IF again, but decided (rather quickly) to go with FireFly. I based my decision not on location, business model or any of the other reasons listed so far. And as FireFly was still brand new, I didn't even have a clear idea of what direction FireFly would take. But what I did know, from my earlier visits to IF, were the builders - Tyler and Jamie.

In April 2011 I had an opportunity to meet with Tyler and Jamie again, but this time in their new shop. I'll have to say, it was a real treat for me. To meet those guys is inspiring. Their excitement and passion for what they are doing is infectious. They are working and having fun. With each new bike they are expanding and testing new ideas. After spending the morning in their shop, I knew that I would have to have a FireFly. There simply was NO question.

As a customer, I could not have been any more pleased. Kevin and I went through several (a bunch) of iterations with the geometry and design. Replies to my emails could be counted in hours (sometimes minutes!) instead of days. They were simply the best experience I've had with a custom builder.

Here's my FireFly -

http://fireflybicycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/FF-034-STudio-2.jpg


You have it all - Culture because building a great bicycle is not so simple you need a great team, a strong culture, sensibility ...;

IF without them and having loosing some others (as stated by Ti Design in his posts) might and certainly have lose a lot. You do not rebuilt a great brand in months. It is exactly what I am wondering about I would have done the same.

[tannhauser]

Are you the kind of people who see the life always in a dark way ! never happy.

:confused:

You can take your knowledge from every where, and internet is certainly a good place for that, try to explain to us here that we are dummies and that we should give up cycling due to your incompetences, what are you doing here, losing your time with us ? Hope you are not looking for good tips ...

You should ride more it helps...
have a great one.
:beer:

Actually, I'm a realist. You should be too if you're going into business.