Westchester residents upset with Gimbel's ride

[fiamme red]

http://rye.patch.com/articles/photos-cyclists-take-over-rye-streets-ignore-traffic-rules

http://rye.patch.com/articles/poll-cyclist-story-sparks-debate-in-rye

Rye Patch reader Jim Amico has certainly had enough of the rude riders. "These animals nearly killed me in the Purdy/Theo crosswalk at exactly 11 a.m. this morning!" he wrote in an email last Saturday to Steve Cadenhead of the Rye City Shared Roadways committee and members of the local press.

Amico, a cyclist himself, wants someone to make sure the bike riders are obeying traffic laws and to prevent someone from getting hurt. "If it were a car turning with me in the crosswalk it would stop, the driver wouldn't yell out his window as he does 30 miles per hour "lookout" and just keep coming, which is exactly what these animals did! Don't they have to yield to pedestrians in a crosswalk just as a car does? I had to RUN out of the crosswalk to keep from being killed!"
Even cyclists concede Gimbel's Ride can be reckless. Though riders experienced keeping pace in groups seem to fare well, the route can take its casualties. From a site for Brooklyn riding enthusiasts:

"From an objective standpoint, Gimbel's cannot be considered a safe group ride. Despite riding at a time of day when traffic is low, the group has earned (both deservedly and not) a reputation for taking unwarranted risks on the road. Crashes are rare, but they do happen. The same can be said for any race-paced training ride in the country, but that doesn’t mean that the group couldn’t make better decisions on the road."

[torquer]

"Crashes are rare, but they do happen. The same can be said for any race-paced training ride in the country, but that doesn’t mean that the group couldn’t make better decisions on the road."

I used to be a regular, now an occasional rider. One factor that discouraged me was the pissing-off of drivers, which regularly translated into stops by cops (mostly in Bedford). But the above quote conflates crashes with poor etiquette towards other road users, and those are separate issues.

[MattTuck]

Totally unacceptable behavior on a public road. We don't allow cars to stage nascar like events on open public roads... there's no justification for that kind of ride, period. Cyclists who feel they can engage in this kind of behavior are no different from drivers who engage in reckless behavior with no regard for other road users.

If you did want to ride like that, I wonder if you could get a police detail to escort your around, with flashing lights and everything... that might lend some legitimacy to the breaking of traffic laws.

[fiamme red]

The last time I did Gimbel's was seven or eight years ago. A rider in front of me went down and broke his pelvis. As we were waiting around for the ambulance, I decided not to do the ride again.

One incident I remember vividly was the whole pack running a red light, while a driver who had the green was growing more and more irate. A number of riders gave him the finger and continued streaming through.

[Louis]

How many times have we said it?

Cyclists poop in their own nest.

[MattTuck]

The last time I did Gimbel's was seven or eight years ago. A rider in front of me went down and broke his pelvis. As we were waiting around for the ambulance, I decided not to do the ride again.

One incident I remember vividly was the whole pack running a red light, while a driver who had the green was growing more and more irate. A number of riders gave him the finger and continued streaming through.

I guess the question is, if this is an organized/planned ride, why the police allow that kind of behavior. It seems to me, they could set up a few video cameras, catch everyone on video doing that, and then write up the whole ride for moving violations, reckless driving, etc. Seems like the behavior would be cleaned up very fast.

The finger thing is interesting, I just listened to an interview yesterday of E.O. Wilson and his new book, "Social Conquest of Earth", and looking at how there is tremendous evolutionary pressure to form groups and that our brains have evolved to establish an "us versus them" mindset. I think that cyclists can be our own worst enemy when it comes to peaceful coexistence on the road.

[Louis]

The finger thing is interesting, I just listened to an interview yesterday of E.O. Wilson and his new book, "Social Conquest of Earth", and looking at how there is tremendous evolutionary pressure to form groups and that our brains have evolved to establish an "us versus them" mindset.

Matt, what are you talking about?

Don't you know that it's safer for experienced cyclists to blow through stop signs and red lights? A slow putz Cat 6 like you might not be capable of figuring this out, but all the racers know that.

[torquer]

I guess the question is, if this is an organized/planned ride, why the police allow that kind of behavior. It seems to me, they could set up a few video cameras, catch everyone on video doing that, and then write up the whole ride for moving violations, reckless driving, etc. Seems like the behavior would be cleaned up very fast.

No organization, per se, and that's the problem.
Cops do pull the group over regularly, and while it's never happened to me, tickets have been issued.

When I first moved to the area (late '70s), there were a few eminence grises, typically prominent within racing clubs, who could impose some discipline. They are gone (as are most of the clubs), so it's barely contained chaos these days.

[fiamme red]

No organization, per se, and that's the problem.
Cops do pull the group over regularly, and while it's never happened to me, tickets have been issued.Yes, it's more like Critical Mass than an organized club ride with designated leaders. Gimbel's isn't sponsored (no, the department store was never a sponsor, and besides it went out of business years ago ;) ) and no one controls the ride. It just happens every Saturday and Sunday, as it has for sixty or seventy years.

[veloduffer]

Totally unacceptable behavior on a public road. We don't allow cars to stage nascar like events on open public roads...

In NJ they do...http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/04/driving_club_linked_to_death_r.html

[bart998]

how many times have we said it?

Cyclists poop in their own nest.


+1

[harryblack]

Eff Gimbel's ride testosterone clowns, eff Westchester too. You want to race, there are plenty of opportunities to do so. If you're poor, can't afford entry fees and travel and you want to race (a possibility), take up time trials or hill climbs.

Also, did ya'll see a recent NYT story on Piermont where some local yokel complains about the cyclists there? Life is hard on the river!

I do, however, disagree with 'poop your own bed.' While that may be true in some cases, why isn't the same level of social criticism applied to car, truck, van, moped and electric bike delivery drivers who likewise-- and often more egregriously/dangerously-- violate both law and social compact?

http://rye.patch.com/articles/photos-cyclists-take-over-rye-streets-ignore-traffic-rules

http://rye.patch.com/articles/poll-cyclist-story-sparks-debate-in-rye

[Louis]

I do, however, disagree with 'poop your own bed.' While that may be true in some cases, why isn't the same level of social criticism applied to car, truck, van, moped and electric bike delivery drivers who likewise-- and often more egregriously/dangerously-- violate both law and social compact?

Relative to drivers and the "real world," when on the road we're a minority and unfortunately, minorities are always held to a higher standard. The majority never examine themselves under a microscope. Their behavior becomes the standard and try as we might to demand equal treatment, that's unlikely to change any time soon. We have equal right to the road, but the bottom line is that most drivers just barely tolerate us.

[MattTuck]

Relative to drivers and the "real world," when on the road we're a minority and unfortunately, minorities are always held to a higher standard. The majority never examine themselves under a microscope. Their behavior becomes the standard and try as we might to demand equal treatment, that's unlikely to change any time soon. We have equal right to the road, but the bottom line is that most drivers just barely tolerate us.

Yes. And because we're a minority, people equate us as being the same. 1 asshole cyclist, and then all cyclists are ass holes. If you see a string of cars running a red light, giving me the finger as I sit on my top tube at a green light, I will be equally contemptuous of those drivers' behaviors. That doesn't mean I hate all drivers, because I am a driver too, and I know that many are good and obey the laws.

However, for drivers that are not cyclists, you see one cyclist disrespecting you and breaking the law, and that is the assumption you make about all of them. And if you see a bunch of them in a group doing it... well, that's how a driver grows to dislike cyclists.

video of this ride... blow through 2 red lights in the first 2 minutes. Model behavior. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5l81eZv6Qg)

[DHallerman]

I do, however, disagree with 'poop your own bed.' While that may be true in some cases, why isn't the same level of social criticism applied to car, truck, van, moped and electric bike delivery drivers who likewise-- and often more egregriously/dangerously-- violate both law and social compact?

Well, when I'm driving a car, I get ticked off by dumb and dangerous drivers.

And the Gimbels ride has done dangerous or obnoxious things passing my groups when I was leading NYCC or WCC club rides. That happened about three or four times to me and my groups, and as far as I could tell, they were poopy cyclists.

Dave, who defines dangerous or obnoxious as passing too close without warning or yelling at us to get out of their fracking way as if they owned the fracking road

[verticaldoug]

I ride Gimbel's 2-3 times per month. I can't really say I have ever seen guys riding through a red light giving stopped cars the finger. I believe more guys are saying sorry (look we all know running red is wrong) and thank you. I think there is a little bit of over dramatization in the article.

I don't view the ride as anything more than a fast group ride. You can make it as hard as you want. If there is a sprint, it is literally the last 500m or so in a section with no lights. Occasionally, riders will push the pace in front of Manhattanville College on Purchase St.

Of the 3 groups that split, I think the only one that could be near Theo/Purdy at 11 a.m. is the short group. I've never ridden with that group, but can't believe they can be very fast or animals. (the pictures in the story definitely look like the short group) Some of the real USI old timers like Otto are on that ride. The middle/long groups roll in later.

The long group has been better of late because the stronger boys from Bicycling Magazine and Danbury Audi tend to introduce some order. You also have older riders with experience.

The middle ride is the one that can be the most unruly. You tend to get a lot of strong young guys who all lack experience and want to be sprinters. This ride can get going at a pretty good clip depending on who wants to work on the front. Simple self preservation means we have to slow down for congested areas. However, I will admit to seeing people making some really stupid decisions on this ride and creating close calls both in the group and in intersections with cars.

If there is any place that tends to be messy it is when the groups come under 95 turn on 120 to Locust. But the group does slow down in that area.

Gimbels is a nice tradition and can be a great fun ride with a cast of all that New York cycling has to offer. The USI Club is the one that sends the most riders to Gimbel's and the easiest solution is local law enforcement speak to the club (Otto) about where the ride needs to tone it down. The first part of the ride on central avenue/22 is more social. That is where the 'Rules' need to be relayed through the group.

Every year around this time the conflict with the ride tends to flair up. The last time I rode (April 14th) there were probably 200 riders before the split.

[Bob Loblaw]

They do. Events like this, sanctioned and attended by local PD, are known as 'races,' which is where these gimbels riders should get their yayas out instead of making enemies of local drivers, ie the whole community!:beer:

BL

If you did want to ride like that, I wonder if you could get a police detail to escort your around, with flashing lights and everything... that might lend some legitimacy to the breaking of traffic laws.

[fiamme red]

I ride Gimbel's 2-3 times per month. I can't really say I have ever seen guys riding through a red light giving stopped cars the finger.I admit that the driver they were giving the finger to was using some nasty language. Still, the riders were in the wrong, since the driver had a green. It was a very large group that day, and the first riders went through when the light was about to change, so everyone else followed.

This took place about eight years ago.

[verticaldoug]

I was planning on catching the tail of Gimbels on 22 before the split this Saturday. Maybe we can have a paceline paceline join. After reading the article, I will turn off at Polly Park and skip the end. I don't need to see if the local Police will be out Saturday enforcing traffic laws in Harrison/Rye.

[Earl Gray]

..... I think that cyclists can be our own worst enemy when it comes to peaceful coexistence on the road.

+1

Contrary popular belief with in the cycling community, having more riders on the road doe NOT help our cause. I would be glad if 1/2 of us stopped riding tonight. It just won't be me.

[happycampyer]

The Gimbels ride is more like wilding on wheels than it is a group ride.

[the bottle ride]

Gimbels and the Rocket Ride in Nyack have changed over the years from a very respectful ride- with the occasional blow through an intersection if it was clear- to something that gives us a really bad name and has become really dangerous. It was never so big- and never so agressive.

200 people on a group ride is a really different dynamic than 20 people rolling on 9w- there needs to be some added layer of safety if it is to continue in its current form

[Bob Ross]

Events like this, sanctioned and attended by local PD, are known as 'races,' which is where these gimbels riders should get their yayas out instead of making enemies of local drivers

A friend of mine (who races CAT3 for one of the local CRCA clubs) summed it up nicely when he said "Why would I do the Gimbels Ride when I can race and that way at least know there's an ambulance within shouting distance?"

[54ny77]

it's unfortunate that a lot of those local go-fast weekend rides get ruined by folks who are impressed with their own power output. there's a time & place for everything. i've done gimbles ride many times, but it's been years and while a total guess, i'd imagine by now the old guard, who'd been doing the ride for 20-30 years and imposed at least some discipline, either moved on &/or got tired of the mob mentality.

is it still just as big as it used to be, both long & short groups?

[verticaldoug]

I'm beginning to think the Westchester crowd doesn't like the guys from Echelon coming out in their jail-zebra kit and riding the roads. I will admit I find a bunch of guys riding around looking like the hamburgler pretty funny.

54ny77, from what I can tell, a lot of the old guard is still around. The short ride that turns right on 120 has many gray hairs in their group. Since this is the group which probably scared the person in the news article, I take it with a bit of a grain of salt. This group just doesn't go that fast.

The crowd on a nice weekend can be really large (150+) before splitting. After the split, the medium and long groups are probably 60+ each. The road gets crowded. But at least, the pack is pretty tight. I been on the roads seeing larger WCC or NYCC group rides and they get a bit messy too. These are groups of only 10 to 20 cyclists.

I freely admit some of the pack have demonstrated some really stupid behavior on jumping or running lights. The problem spots tend to be Locust onto 120 at the Airport, then 120 turning across Westchester Ave ( probably most dangerous) and then going highland rd under 95 right onto 120 to locust.
If I am the police, I'd stop the pack on highland and have a rules discussion there.

If the police end of ticketing cyclists, they will probably get the wrong ones. It is a lot like speeding on the highway. Rarely do the worst offenders get caught, they have the radar detectors. I 'm guessing the pack will be on guard this weekend.

[nbrewste]

This sort of thing infuriates me. I race five months out of the year and commute four to five days a week -- I spend a lot of time on the bike. In a city. I see a lot of riders and a lot of imbecilic behavior.

I adhere to the notion that it's my responsibility as a guy who spends a great deal of time, energy and passion into furthering his cycling obsession to act as a steward for the rest of the riding community. I try to set an example for John or Jane public who are just out there on a leisurely commute or Sunday afternoon ride.

So too should those large group rides. Could you imagine a group of 50+ cyclists behaving well? Stopping, yielding, waving hello? That would be awesome!

The truth is that most 'spirited' group rides are nothing more than irresponsible testosterone fests. Something changes in a group. I've been on rides with racers from Cat.1 to Cat.5 -- it doesn't matter. There's something about group mentality that overrides common sense. It's an interesting bit of psychology.

[DHallerman]

Since this is the group which probably scared the person in the news article, I take it with a bit of a grain of salt. This group just doesn't go that fast.

Perspective, please.

Say 20 mph...not "that fast" perhaps, for racers.

But to the average non-cyclist, that's fast. At least that's what I've heard over the years.

And my on-bike, on-road experience leads me to believe that both pedestrians and drivers have no real sense how fast or slow we're going on our bikes.