Classic Alloy Tubulars

[cippoforlife]

Hey gang...I've been doing a little Friday Battleground on the website the past two weeks, but today's may interest some folks around here:
I decided to run an old-school alloy tubular wheel battle in honor of the Spring Classics!
Mostly pictures, with just a bit of info, but feel free to post questions here!
In spite of my blog comments, these babies are my personal faves...
Friday Battle #2: Classic Tubular Wheelsets | blacksmith cycle (http://blacksmithcycle.wordpress.com/2012/04/27/friday-battle-2-classic-tubular-wheelsets/)
http://i462.photobucket.com/albums/qq348/cippoforlife/Battle.jpg

Thanks,
Mike

[yakstone]

Excellent - love the tie and solder.

[jghall]

Thanks for the time Mike, and thoughts. Keep the shoot-outs coming.

[Grant McLean]

cool mike, i'm overdue for a shop visit.

-g

[dd74]

Love them!

Anyone know where can I get a tubular wheelset just like those for Campy 11?
Oh, and possibly the weight and cost?

[firerescuefin]

Love them!

Anyone know where can I get a tubular wheelset just like those for Campy 11?
Oh, and possibly the weight and cost?

Ergott
Echelon Jon
Old Potatoe

....all people that give a lot of their time to the forum (not just dropping in here once in awhile to sell their wares). Just had Eric build me up a set of wheels very similar. Take care of the hands that take care of you.

[dd74]

Ergott
Echelon Jon
Old Potatoe

....all people that give a lot of their time to the forum. Just had Eric build me up a set of wheels very similar. Take care of the hands that take care of you.
Sweet. Thanks.

[rwsaunders]

I'd ride those. A question though for the tubbie ignorant, what is the difference between the Reflex and the Nemesis rims that folks go nuts over?

[Jaq]

Mavic Reflexes have a slightly deeper profile and machined sidewalls; Ambrosio Nemesises have a more classic, box-like cross section, non-machined sidewalls, and feature an additional balance weight at the valve hole to offset the weight gained from welding the rim directly across. Mavics are also welded.

Mavic weights come in around 390, Ambrosios at about 400 or so. They're both available in 32 and 36, but Ambrosios are also available in 28 and possibly 24. They're also (both rims) double-eyeletted.

Ambrosios tend to be spoken of in hushed, reverent tones. Mavics not so much; there was an issue a few years back with Mavics cracking around the eyelet holes, but I'm not sure if was a manufacturing defect or what. Peter White refused to build wheels with them. As I understand it, Ambrosio also built rims for a lot of folks. The older Campy Record Cronos are - I think - Ambrosios without the counterbalance.

I've got a new set of Mavic tubulars. I haven't built the rear yet, but I've got about 500 miles on the front so far and it's been great.

[oldpotatoe]

I'd ride those. A question though for the tubbie ignorant, what is the difference between the Reflex and the Nemesis rims that folks go nuts over?

In my experience, Ambrosio are flatter, rounder outta the box than Mavic, 'seem' less 'soft' when building. Ambrosio build like DT 465 do, they seem like you are 'centering' the hub, whereas mavic take more time..Just IMHO and experience building lotsa both.

Wish somebody(c'mon, some of you BMW drivin' rich boys), why not start a company importing and distributing Ambrosio rims in the USA!!

[AngryScientist]

very cool, your shop is really a first rate place. if i'm ever in the area, i will be sure to drop by. good looking wheels.

[oldpotatoe]

Hey gang...I've been doing a little Friday Battleground on the website the past two weeks, but today's may interest some folks around here:
I decided to run an old-school alloy tubular wheel battle in honor of the Spring Classics!
Mostly pictures, with just a bit of info, but feel free to post questions here!
In spite of my blog comments, these babies are my personal faves...
Friday Battle #2: Classic Tubular Wheelsets | blacksmith cycle (http://blacksmithcycle.wordpress.com/2012/04/27/friday-battle-2-classic-tubular-wheelsets/)
http://i462.photobucket.com/albums/qq348/cippoforlife/Battle.jpg

Thanks,
Mike

From the blog
"Mavic Ksyrium Series: tried and true in races from the Tour de France to your local crit, the Ksyrium series is known for ridiculous stiffness, epic durability, reliable hubs, and serviceability nearly anywhere. Add in the SLR model’s new Exalith braking surface, which sounds awful but works great, and you have a cobble beater from the French wheel giant. Only downside – the hubs ain’t what they used to be.

I certainly agree with the last sentence. The rear hub hasn't been 'what it used to be' for 2 decades..

PLUS less spokes and thinner spokes on a similar rim doesn't make for a stiffer wheel(Ambrosio Lazer)

AND(sorry, don't want to pile on) but Zipp 101, for that price are just terrible. Soft, unreliable, poor hubs, IMHO

and

shimano wheels are anything but 'affordable', for what ya get. DA hubs, 'standard' rims and spokes make for a wheelset that is VERY similar, but less expensive.

Just my opinion...and ya know what they say about 'opinions'.

[ergott]

I don't see how you came to the conclusion that fewer, lighter gauge spokes (18/24?) in the Ambro wheels yields a stiffer wheel. The Dura Ace build would be stiffer where it needs to be (lateral).

My contribution.

http://ergottwheels.smugmug.com/Sports/Wheels/i-zVwzk4W/0/XL/Alchemy-GP402-XL.jpg

http://ergottwheels.smugmug.com/Sports/Wheels/i-S6TwgFc/0/XL/Alchemy-GP401-XL.jpg

[ergott]

Ambrosio Nemesis rims are around 460g not 400g.

[oldpotatoe]

I don't see how you came to the conclusion that fewer, lighter gauge spokes (18/24?) in the Ambro wheels yields a stiffer wheel. The Dura Ace build would be stiffer where it needs to be (lateral).

My contribution.

http://ergottwheels.smugmug.com/Sports/Wheels/i-zVwzk4W/0/XL/Alchemy-GP402-XL.jpg

http://ergottwheels.smugmug.com/Sports/Wheels/i-S6TwgFc/0/XL/Alchemy-GP401-XL.jpg

Those old label GP-4(post red label)? Very nice...much better than Reflexes, IMHO.

I 'raced'(funny to even call it that).

on GL330 rear, GEL 280 front, 36h, on Hi-E hubs...very nice wheelset.

[Joachim]

I have a set of the red/gold label gp4 but have been looking for the yellow label in 32h forever.

[ergott]

These?

http://ergottwheels.smugmug.com/Sports/Wheels/i-BJLZVmp/1/L/GP4rimcollection-L.jpg

[Joachim]

Exactly those! Do they only come as part of wheelsets? They will go well with a minty set of silver record hubs.

[ergott]

That's years of saving up. My stash;-)

[cippoforlife]

Glad the thread got people talking!
For those who asked, we actually do sell Ambrosio rims and other custom
wheel builds, and ship cross-continent.
As for my stiffness comments, I suppose it is anecdotal, but I feel like CX Rays do build up to produce a wheel that at least "feels" a bit stiffer, with a touch less deflection to my eyes and bum.
Not really trying to start a wheel building debate...I use two great wheelbuilders and leave the true expertise to them :beer:
And we do also love DT Swiss RR465 builds...probably should have included those as well - I always make one big omission...
http://blacksmithcycle.wordpress.com/2011/10/30/1083/

[Jaq]

Exactly those! Do they only come as part of wheelsets? They will go well with a minty set of silver record hubs.

You might check out YellowJersey.org. They often get in older NOS rims. Trouble is, they don't seem to update their site too often.

[Gummee]

That's years of saving up. My stash;-)

My box-section rim stash isn't nearly that big (or that new!) but I have about a 12" stack of a mixed bag of Campag and Mavic tubular rims.

Now, who's still riding box-section clinchers other than me?

M

[zmudshark]

Took a nice ride today on some Mavic GEL 280's with Veloflex Criteriums. Even after hauling my overweight carcass around Paradise Valley, AZ, the wheels are true.

The ride is amazing, cornering crisper and talk about spinning up fast, wowwowweewoo! It's always satisfying to have someone hanging on to your wheel, take a turn tighter, faster and accelerate away before they realize they have been dropped like a fat girl at prom.

Same with climbing. Step on it and go. I am surely at the upper weight limit(160 on a VG day) for 280's, and had my doubts about even using them. Back in the day they were front wheel only for me, and I was lighter. They do just fine on the smooth roads of AZ. Back in MI, it's GP4's and Sprinter Gatorskins.

At any rate, if you are at all curious, you owe it to yourself to try to ride a set of nice, older rims. Mine are laced to Centaur hubs, so not even the top of the line, but man, what a feeling when you ride them.

[fogrider]

The ride is amazing, cornering crisper and talk about spinning up fast, wowwowweewoo! It's always satisfying to have someone hanging on to your wheel, take a turn tighter, faster and accelerate away before they realize they have been dropped like a fat girl at prom.

Same with climbing. Step on it and go. I am surely at the upper weight limit(160 on a VG day) for 280's, and had my doubts about even using them. Back in the day they were front wheel only for me, and I was lighter. They do just fine on the smooth roads of AZ. Back in MI, it's GP4's and Sprinter Gatorskins.

At any rate, if you are at all curious, you owe it to yourself to try to ride a set of nice, older rims. Mine are laced to Centaur hubs, so not even the top of the line, but man, what a feeling when you ride them.

I've got 330s up front on the road bike but don't like to run them in the rear...too many potholes. I find that they are good in the rear with the cross bike.

[earlfoss]

Those old Mavic rims are great! I know many here in WI who have racing wheelsets still running those suckers. I haven't heard too many positive things from Reflex users though. In general Mavic quality doesn't seem to be what it used be but that's how it goes.

[El Chaba]

Let me be delicate about this....Mavic Reflex rims are crap....The rim thickness in the spoke bed area is inadequate to support the tension required on the driveside rear on a modern wheel. If you get 3000 miles on a rear wheel before the cracking starts, you are lucky. For the record, most Reflex rims are in the 375g range. As ergott pointed out, a Nemesis is in the 450-470 g range. A properly built Nemesis wheel is about as bombproof as it gets while still providing a great ride...
Interestingly, as time goes on, the cracking problem on the Reflex rims seems to be getting WORSE. Usually as a production run goes on the extruding tooling wears and the rims get heavier and thicker...but the opposite seems to be occuring with the Reflexes. I have some pretty high mileage Helium wheels (the rims are specially drilled/anodised Reflexes) that have no evidence of cracking whatsoever...and I also have a wheelset with very early Reflex blue rims that also are still good. It is a pity that a company like Mavic who built their reputation on quality, performance and ruggedness continues to sell an inferior product like the Reflex rims as their sole tubular rim offering....