And we complain about distracted drivers...

[tkbike]

I think I've seen it all now...
Monday night on Rt 50 in Ballston Spa, two women riding, each had one hand on the bars and the other holding a cell phone to their ear. I almost hit both as they rolled through a stop light, sometimes I think we are our own worst enemies. I guess the New York State "Distracted Driver" enforcement week only applies to motor vehicles! At least they had some nice bikes; a Madone and a Serotta!

[Z3c]

I think it is clearly confirmed that we our our own worst enemy.. I saw a cyclist do something really stupid and fortunately the perplexed motorist didn't kill him. I said something to him about making motorists mad. He didn't appreciate my viewpoint..

[dustyrider]

We are our own worst enemies.

I watched a carbon Trek rider squeeze his way to the front of the traffic line yesterday. Of course he tried to track stand and horribly failed. Once the light turned green, he squirmed himself ahead for 35 yards or so, guess he forgot to shift.

He was directly in front of a Blazer driver, and taking up most of the lane at this point. The driver started waving his hands around, and making erratic motions with the car, making it dangerous for everyone to be around.
The worst thing was the cyclist had a younger rider on his tail who waited back with me, probably his son.

I can only hope the younger rider observed the driver's reaction, and won't take his older riding companion's lead in the future. I dropped 'em both on the next hill with my pannier clad commuter. So what was the point exactly?

For certain types of intersections I've taken to waiting in line just like a car, it seems to enable drivers to be more courteous. Of course certain intersections dictate scooting to the front for safety reasons.
I try to be a good steward and always make sure I shift before hand, as well as, stopping myself in the safest and most respectful place.

[kenw]

wonder if they were talking to each other?

[Kontact]

I don't think we are our worst enemies. Has a distracted cyclist ever killed a motorist????

Drivers have a responsibility that goes above the "equal" legal standing bikes have, because 4000 pound vehicles are so much more capable of killing everything in their paths than any pedestrian, cyclist or even motorcycle.

Our behavior is really moot - at the very worst it is only suicide. "Vehicular manslaughter" is not a concept that applies to self powered vehicles, but is a daily reality anywhere there are roads. Drivers don't need the added incentive of cyclists being nice to choose not to kill. Scratched paint, higher insurance rates and jail are more than enough motivation.

[efleigh]

not true when you think about cyclists causing drivers to react to avoid them, possibly causing other complications accidents, etc... i look at it from this point of view as i ride a bike drive a car and ride a motorcycle, what if the cyclist causes the car to swerve in order to avoid him, but the car doesnt see the motorcycle coming up (as is often the case with motorcycles) and creams the motorcyclist?

I don't think we are our worst enemies. Has a distracted cyclist ever killed a motorist????

Drivers have a responsibility that goes above the "equal" legal standing bikes have, because 4000 pound vehicles are so much more capable of killing everything in their paths than any pedestrian, cyclist or even motorcycle.

Our behavior is really moot - at the very worst it is only suicide. "Vehicular manslaughter" is not a concept that applies to self powered vehicles, but is a daily reality anywhere there are roads. Drivers don't need the added incentive of cyclists being nice to choose not to kill. Scratched paint, higher insurance rates and jail are more than enough motivation.

[Kontact]

not true when you think about cyclists causing drivers to react to avoid them, possibly causing other complications accidents, etc... i look at it from this point of view as i ride a bike drive a car and ride a motorcycle, what if the cyclist causes the car to swerve in order to avoid him, but the car doesnt see the motorcycle coming up (as is often the case with motorcycles) and creams the motorcyclist?

Then the driver wasn't paying attention to the road and was fixating on a just one thing.

I'm sure we can create a million scenarios for how a cyclist could influence a motorist, but motorists are expected to deal with kids, bikes, Mr. Squirrel, dogs, potholes, other cars and emergency vehicles all while observing the speedometer and navigating. They have the best brakes, best acceleration, best bad weather visibility, bright lights and a horn, plus comfy seats, airbags, crumple zones, A/C, heat and an engine.

If a cyclist screws up badly enough, he'll kill himself because the car won't be able to maneuver out of the way (in deference to the motorcycle or whoever else), but the biker isn't going to drift out of his lane and bash a car into the shoulder. Motorist have all the advantages, all of the power and almost all of the responsibility. In return they get to sit in comfort while going 60mph in a snowstorm.

Cyclists' main responsibility is to do whatever they can to avoid being killed by all the cars, and there's only so much a guy covered in lycra balanced high on a 15 pound contraption can do to protect himself. Good road manners is not defensive driving, and bad public relations isn't punishable by death.

[efleigh]

what you said was that cyclists are only responsible for themselves, the worst they can do is kill themselves. thats not true.

[Kirk Pacenti]

wonder if they were talking to each other?

You jest, but I saw it just the other day... Not cyclists, but a girl in a parked car talking to a guy on the sidewalk. I was stuck at a light for several minutes watching them talk to each other, looking, laughing, pointing... still chatting as I pulled away. It was pretty bizarre.

Cheers,

KP

[dustyrider]

Cyclists' main responsibility is to do whatever they can to avoid being killed by all the cars, ...... Good road manners is not defensive driving, and bad public relations isn't punishable by death.

"Doing whatever they can to avoid being killed" means, having good road manners and having good public relations.

[d.vader123]

I don't think we are our worst enemies. Has a distracted cyclist ever killed a motorist????Yes. Randolf Ang and Chris Bucchere. I don't know if they were distracted or just careless, but they are two cyclists who killed someone. Ang actually got a pretty light sentence. Most drivers who kill don't get that lucky.

[d.vader123]

I said something to him about making motorists mad. He didn't appreciate my viewpoint..This reminds me of how I see so many instances where cyclists would ride up to a driver who just committed a left or right hook and tries to inform him/her about what they had done.

I never understood that. Do people really think they're going to educate a driver today? If they're lucky they might find someone who is cooperative, but most of the time they should avoid confrontation. If they're going to ride up to people to confront them then they should also be willing to receive critical feedback on their cycling when they are riding two abreast on single lane roads, not stopping at lights, going way too fast, or not yielding to pedestrians.

This example you provide is just one of many where dangerous cyclists don't like being told when they are in the wrong.

[Tom]

To the OP: Did you go up the road a ways, pull over, get out and when they came up to you tell them exactly what they just did and why they are complete blithering idiots? When you pointed out to them that you ride x thousands of miles a year and really don't appreciate their behavior causing the drivers around them to take it out on the next rider they see, did they act as if they understood your point?

It's our job to correct every person we see doing something stupid. Most of the time it is futile but sometimes miracles do happen.

[AngryScientist]

i dislike these threads for a number of reasons.

yes, there are bad cyclists out there on the roads, just like bad drivers, pedestrians, kids on scooters, motercyclists, deer and squirrels.

pointing out the bad cyclists to us here on an internet forum of cycling enthusiasts does nothing but get some chest pounding going.

if you really want to help the cause, politely tell the offending cyclists what they can improve on, and maybe you'll get them thinking. help them help themselves. dont run home and post what you saw on the internet:confused:

edit: tom beat me to it!

[Grant McLean]

It's our job to correct every person we see doing something stupid.



The "job" of every person using the public roads is to follow the rules.

People behaving without personal responsibility for their actions is as problematic
as those who feel they want to be responsible for others. The roads would
be much better places if people were viewed as individuals and not members
of particular groups. I'm not a 'cyclist' to be judged by others behaviour,
i'm me - an individual person with my own rights and responsibilities.

I'm responsible for my own behaviour, and nobody else is responsible for me.

-g

[Kontact]

The "job" of every person using the public roads is to follow the rules.

People behaving without personal responsibility for their actions is as problematic
as those who feel they want to be responsible for others. The roads would
be much better places if people were viewed as individuals and not members
of particular groups. I'm not a 'cyclist' to be judged by others behaviour,
i'm me - an individual person with my own rights and responsibilities.

I'm responsible for my own behaviour, and nobody else is responsible for me.

-g

Precisely!

[Tom]

The "job" of every person using the public roads is to follow the rules.

People behaving without personal responsibility for their actions is as problematic
as those who feel they want to be responsible for others. The roads would
be much better places if people were viewed as individuals and not members
of particular groups. I'm not a 'cyclist' to be judged by others behaviour,
i'm me - an individual person with my own rights and responsibilities.

I'm responsible for my own behaviour, and nobody else is responsible for me.

-g

I agree with you, but if they don't behave responsibly I feel it is my responsibility to tell them how they could do better next time. I'm not responsible for them, I'm responsible for myself and I can not simply go on my way when I see something wrong. You should see me in the grocery parking lot when some moron leaves their cart in the space next to their car when they unload their groceries and start to drive away. It's a pathology.

Yeah, in this case I'm reacting to somebody from the supposedly aggrieved group acting irresponsibly and I'm really sensitive to that for a lot of reasons but mostly because I figure that if I want to be left to my own devices on the road when I'm out riding around it'd help if the other ones that look like me, and face it we're just a uniform "dork on bike unit" to a lot of people, behave themselves responsibly.

[PQJ]

Apropos of all of this, here's the text of an email I recently sent to the public message board of a riding group I will no longer be riding with:

"Hello all. I've ridden with *** a number of times, and while I like the people I've met, I have nevertheless decided not to ride with *** again. I could have left it at that and none of you would miss me, but I can't and here's why: ***, as a group, rides in total disregard of the rules of the road and the other people and vehicles using it. Respect is a 2-way street, so to speak, and if we, as cyclists, expect cars to treat us safely and respectfully, then we need to extend them the same courtesy. Candidly, *** sets an extremely poor example for cyclists. When I hear people bitching about scantily-clad assholes on bikes hogging the road/running lights/endangering themselves and others/holding up traffic/etc., I can understand the sentiment when I put it in the context of ***'s group rides.

Please remember that each and every time you saddle up, in a group or otherwise, and whether you like it or not, you are serving as an example of and ambassador for cyclists all over *****. By riding as if you own the road and therefore everyone else on it should defer to you, you're not only endangering yourselves then and there, but also me, my other riding buddies and groups, and each one of you individually when you go out on your own.

I urge each of you to - privately - consider the substance of this email (and I hope also that it'll be on your mind when you're out riding, especially on the Saturday and Sunday group rides). And then take a look at your wife or husband or child or parent or whatever, and ask yourself whether you're doing all that you can to engender the kind of goodwill out on the roads that will cause motorists to respect us rather than hate us, and to ensure your safe return to your loved ones after your next ride.

It is an unfortunate reality but some people, for whatever reason, are itching for any excuse to "teach that idiot on a bike a lesson." Do yourselves (and me) a favor and don't give it to them.

Respectfully,"

[Kontact]

I agree with you, but if they don't behave responsibly I feel it is my responsibility to tell them how they could do better next time. I'm not responsible for them, I'm responsible for myself and I can not simply go on my way when I see something wrong. You should see me in the grocery parking lot when some moron leaves their cart in the space next to their car when they unload their groceries and start to drive away. It's a pathology.

Yeah, in this case I'm reacting to somebody from the supposedly aggrieved group acting irresponsibly and I'm really sensitive to that for a lot of reasons but mostly because I figure that if I want to be left to my own devices on the road when I'm out riding around it'd help if the other ones that look like me, and face it we're just a uniform "dork on bike unit" to a lot of people, behave themselves responsibly.

Aside from the problem of simply alienating other cyclists, I don't think you're actually changing anything. And I don't know if we SHOULD change anything.

The best possible behavior by all cyclists isn't going to change the attitudes of the majority of US drivers.

More importantly, I don't want drivers to think that all cyclists are reliable. We aren't, and I want every cyclist to be given a wide berth and the benefit of the doubt when in the presence of automobiles. Cyclists have no license, no age requirements, no safety equipment and aren't even obligated to signal. There is no room in that for drivers to believe that cyclists are predictable and hold them to the same standard as a motorized vehicle.

[bobswire]

i dislike these threads for a number of reasons.

yes, there are bad cyclists out there on the roads, just like bad drivers, pedestrians, kids on scooters, motercyclists, deer and squirrels.

pointing out the bad cyclists to us here on an internet forum of cycling enthusiasts does nothing but get some chest pounding going.

if you really want to help the cause, politely tell the offending cyclists what they can improve on, and maybe you'll get them thinking. help them help themselves. dont run home and post what you saw on the internet:confused:

edit: tom beat me to it!

Plus1
All one can only do is set a positive example. If I posted a thread for every car that I saw do something stupid I'd be at it 24/7.
People are people, bikes do not make them saints or smart.

[tuxbailey]

Apropos of all of this, here's the text of an email I recently sent to the public message board of a riding group I will no longer be riding with:

"Hello all. I've ridden with *** a number of times, and while I like the people I've met, I have nevertheless decided not to ride with *** again. I could have left it at that and none of you would miss me, but I can't and here's why: ***, as a group, rides in total disregard of the rules of the road and the other people and vehicles using it. Respect is a 2-way street, so to speak, and if we, as cyclists, expect cars to treat us safely and respectfully, then we need to extend them the same courtesy. Candidly, *** sets an extremely poor example for cyclists. When I hear people bitching about scantily-clad assholes on bikes hogging the road/running lights/endangering themselves and others/holding up traffic/etc., I can understand the sentiment when I put it in the context of ***'s group rides.

Please remember that each and every time you saddle up, in a group or otherwise, and whether you like it or not, you are serving as an example of and ambassador for cyclists all over *****. By riding as if you own the road and therefore everyone else on it should defer to you, you're not only endangering yourselves then and there, but also me, my other riding buddies and groups, and each one of you individually when you go out on your own.

I urge each of you to - privately - consider the substance of this email (and I hope also that it'll be on your mind when you're out riding, especially on the Saturday and Sunday group rides). And then take a look at your wife or husband or child or parent or whatever, and ask yourself whether you're doing all that you can to engender the kind of goodwill out on the roads that will cause motorists to respect us rather than hate us, and to ensure your safe return to your loved ones after your next ride.

It is an unfortunate reality but some people, for whatever reason, are itching for any excuse to "teach that idiot on a bike a lesson." Do yourselves (and me) a favor and don't give it to them.

Respectfully,"

Nice. Did you get any positive reception of your effort?

[Fixed]

Glad you didn't hit them
Cheers

[PQJ]

Nice. Did you get any positive reception of your effort?

No, not yet. But none is expected or necessary. All I hope is that it resonates with at least a few people, and perhaps the unofficial ride leaders will say or do something about it in the future.