Sometimes the right thing happens

[gasman]

Last summer I was on a shop ride with about 25. We were spread out in multiple groups, all single file when a woman in a pickup suddenly swerved over to the right , ran several people off the road and a 15 year kid was hit by her rearview mirror. Thankfully nobody was hurt. She did stop, but got out of the car yelling and screaming and was ready to take on one rider who is a pretty big guy. Fortunately, they got photos of her and her truck. (I found out about what happened at a regrouping point.) When the police went to her house she started yelling and screaming at the officer.The weird thing is I know this woman, she's a nurse and has been in the area for 15 years, though she has worked at multiple centers and didn't know until the news report that she was someone I had worked with for years.
She had a trial on Tuesday was found guilty on 5 counts. Her sentencing was Thursday. Here's the news article:


Woman gets jail time in cyclists case

The coordinator of McKenzie-Willamette* Medical Center’s robotic surgery program in Springfield was sentenced Wednesday to 20 days in jail for running several cyclists off a no-passing zone of the Lorane Highway last summer.

Jaime Loraine Ziebert, 48, testified in a trial last week that she did not intend to force the riders off the highway and mistakenly thought a white fog line painted along the road’s edge was a bicycle lane. The victims testified that she deliberately ran them off the road — striking one of them with her car’s mirror — because she was angry at having her speed impeded. A jury convicted her on one count of reckless driving and four counts of recklessly endangering another person.

Ziebert also faces a three-year driver’s license suspension, though Lane County Circuit Judge Suzanne Chanti said she would support Ziebert’s efforts to get a hardship exception allowing her to continue to commute to work.

[CaliFly]

Justice.

I wish I could say, "This is a victory for the 'good guys'", but I can't. We should all be good guys...no matter how many wheels are under our control.

[Fixed]

Stress drives people mad
Glad no one was hurt
Cheers

[Louis]

Sounds like her brain went over the edge.

[esldude]

Probably the right outcome. However, I might have some sympathy for her. I say this as a cyclist myself.

Last year a local group ride was happening on a road I was taking. Speed limits of this road were 45 mph. It is a curving road in some places with limited passing zones that are safe. Well this group of 20-30 riders were spread out two and three wide and spaced without any significant gaps. With gaps I could have passed safely a few into a spot, and then some and so on. There were not any gaps for this. The few places straight enough with enough clear vision to safely pass happened to have traffic in the other direction. So I had the pleasure of riding behind this group at 15-18 mph for about 6 miles. Where they finally turned off onto a smaller road.

Now they were within their legal rights to do this. Nor did I ever crowd them or honk my horn or any such thing. But I must say, even being a cyclist, my patience was worn pretty thin by the time I got around them. I was in no hurry to be anywhere at a particular time. But that cost me 20 minutes compared to them not being there. It was 20 minutes I did not like. Sure 20 minutes isn't life or death or anything. And I don't even know what they could have done better as this road has little to no shoulder and no good place for the group to stop and let cars past. Plus while not a heavily traveled road there was a good dozen vehicles behind me by the time they turned. They would have been stopping more than riding.

Now if I had been already mad, or stressed or tired or worse trying to get somewhere like to work or other important appointment, then it would have been tough to stay cool. Not saying that pardons anyone from loosing it and bumping cyclists off the road. You do have responsibilities as a driver to be safe.

The group could have voluntarily broken up into groups with passable gaps. Or ridden single file (which even then wouldn't have allowed lots of room this road wasn't particularly wide). But that really isn't a practical thing to organize or control on a group ride.

So I don't know the better answer. I do know it was quite frustrating, and illustrates the problem of slow people powered vehicles sharing the road with fast motorized vehicles.

[gasman]

Probably the right outcome. However, I might have some sympathy for her. I say this as a cyclist myself.

Last year a local group ride was happening on a road I was taking. Speed limits of this road were 45 mph. It is a curving road in some places with limited passing zones that are safe. Well this group of 20-30 riders were spread out two and three wide and spaced without any significant gaps. With gaps I could have passed safely a few into a spot, and then some and so on. There were not any gaps for this. The few places straight enough with enough clear vision to safely pass happened to have traffic in the other direction. So I had the pleasure of riding behind this group at 15-18 mph for about 6 miles. Where they finally turned off onto a smaller road.

Now they were within their legal rights to do this. Nor did I ever crowd them or honk my horn or any such thing. But I must say, even being a cyclist, my patience was worn pretty thin by the time I got around them. I was in no hurry to be anywhere at a particular time. But that cost me 20 minutes compared to them not being there. It was 20 minutes I did not like. Sure 20 minutes isn't life or death or anything. And I don't even know what they could have done better as this road has little to no shoulder and no good place for the group to stop and let cars past. Plus while not a heavily traveled road there was a good dozen vehicles behind me by the time they turned. They would have been stopping more than riding.

Now if I had been already mad, or stressed or tired or worse trying to get somewhere like to work or other important appointment, then it would have been tough to stay cool. Not saying that pardons anyone from loosing it and bumping cyclists off the road. You do have responsibilities as a driver to be safe.

The group could have voluntarily broken up into groups with passable gaps. Or ridden single file (which even then wouldn't have allowed lots of room this road wasn't particularly wide). But that really isn't a practical thing to organize or control on a group ride.

So I don't know the better answer. I do know it was quite frustrating, and illustrates the problem of slow people powered vehicles sharing the road with fast motorized vehicles.

I understand your frustration but everyone was single file, pretty spread out and she was only 1/4 mile from her turnoff. Lots of drivers passed without difficulty that day.

[Chance]

Probably the right outcome. However, I might have some sympathy for her. I say this as a cyclist myself.

Last year a local group ride was happening on a road I was taking. Speed limits of this road were 45 mph. It is a curving road in some places with limited passing zones that are safe. Well this group of 20-30 riders were spread out two and three wide and spaced without any significant gaps. With gaps I could have passed safely a few into a spot, and then some and so on. There were not any gaps for this. The few places straight enough with enough clear vision to safely pass happened to have traffic in the other direction. So I had the pleasure of riding behind this group at 15-18 mph for about 6 miles. Where they finally turned off onto a smaller road.

Now they were within their legal rights to do this. Nor did I ever crowd them or honk my horn or any such thing. But I must say, even being a cyclist, my patience was worn pretty thin by the time I got around them. I was in no hurry to be anywhere at a particular time. But that cost me 20 minutes compared to them not being there. It was 20 minutes I did not like. Sure 20 minutes isn't life or death or anything. And I don't even know what they could have done better as this road has little to no shoulder and no good place for the group to stop and let cars past. Plus while not a heavily traveled road there was a good dozen vehicles behind me by the time they turned. They would have been stopping more than riding.

Now if I had been already mad, or stressed or tired or worse trying to get somewhere like to work or other important appointment, then it would have been tough to stay cool. Not saying that pardons anyone from loosing it and bumping cyclists off the road. You do have responsibilities as a driver to be safe.

The group could have voluntarily broken up into groups with passable gaps. Or ridden single file (which even then wouldn't have allowed lots of room this road wasn't particularly wide). But that really isn't a practical thing to organize or control on a group ride.

So I don't know the better answer. I do know it was quite frustrating, and illustrates the problem of slow people powered vehicles sharing the road with fast motorized vehicles.

In my area the law requires cyclists to remain single file. Not entirely 100 percent certain but almost so. Would not solve all problems but goes a long ways towards allowing vehicles to pass more safely. And would probably improve rider safety too. Don't see the point in riding 2 or 3 wide when there are only 20 to 30 riders. Granted some riders think it's safer to take the road and prevent traffic from passing but to me it seems a little selfish and a bad idea in that it promotes bad feelings from motorists.

[rugbysecondrow]

Being angry and acting out that anger is different. I have seen cyclists do some dumb, rude and douche-baggy stuff, some of it has frustrated me and even ticked me off. As civilized folks though, we need to not act out every emotion we have. That is what message boards and comments sections are for...venting. That is why I put such little stock in it, folks need an outlet for their frustrations to be heard.

[Bud_E]

In my area the law requires cyclists to remain single file. Not entirely 100 percent certain but almost so. Would not solve all problems but goes a long ways towards allowing vehicles to pass more safely. And would probably improve rider safety too. Don't see the point in riding 2 or 3 wide when there are only 20 to 30 riders. Granted some riders think it's safer to take the road and prevent traffic from passing but to me it seems a little selfish and a bad idea in that it promotes bad feelings from motorists.

I've been on more than one organized century where the Highway Patrol ticketed riders for not being single file.

[rbtmcardle]

A group of us makes an annual pilgrimage from the dead flats of southern NJ to Vermont each year, we have been as few as 10 or so and as many as 25. Generally we make a home base in Middlebury and ride for four days in differing loops from there. Several times over the years we have been stopped by the local sheriff for failing to ride single file. I have no idea of the laws, nor do we ride in a two wide group, so we just become very agreeable with the officer and promise to do better. I am certain he gets calls from frustrated drivers as the roads are often so narrow and twisty that it is difficult to pass even at single file.

I never want to be the guy who was "right" but ends up dead.

[ningbobilly]

I ride in a pretty congested area. In my experience, cyclists do as many stupid discourteous unpredictable and dangerous acts as motorists. Sure, many motorists get angry just because we're on their road, but some of my riding partners feel the same way about cars and motorcycles when we're out on a ride.

While we're out on group rides, let's practice and promote safe, responsible riding habits through kind comments. I never want to see another cyclist, who may have been in the right, riding an ambulance instead of finishing the ride.

[MattTuck]

Glad to see the criminal justice system working... and her getting some punishment that is clearly due.

I would like to believe that she'll do better in the future because she wants people on the roads to be safe, rather than fear that she'll be locked up.

To that end, I wonder if a 'punishment' that might be more enduring in terms of modifying her behavior would be compulsory cycle commuting to work. Perhaps she'd have a better understanding of how to be a safe driver.

I don't think the judge would ever do this, but I think it would be great if she did.

[Gummee]

In my area the law requires cyclists to remain single file. Not entirely 100 percent certain but almost so. Would not solve all problems but goes a long ways towards allowing vehicles to pass more safely. And would probably improve rider safety too. Don't see the point in riding 2 or 3 wide when there are only 20 to 30 riders. Granted some riders think it's safer to take the road and prevent traffic from passing but to me it seems a little selfish and a bad idea in that it promotes bad feelings from motorists.

Let's think about this single file thing for a minute m'kay?

Let's say the average bike is 4' from outer edge to outer edge of the tires. 20 cyclists = 80' minimum and more likely 100' 'cause there's going to be gaps.

So we have a 100' line of riders *in single file* coming to the crest of a hill/blind corner/what have you. I'm not even thinking about the leaders of the pack accelerating before the back of the pack even gets over the hill!

How is that safer than 40-50' of riders side-by side? (or less if they're in a mob and taking the whole lane)

Now, say there's two groups of 10 riders in single file with enough room for a car to get in there... What happens when 2 cars get all antsy and try to occupy that space for one car?

I'll disagree with single file being safer. Legal? Probably. ...but since when has legal always been smart?

M

[rugbysecondrow]

In most instances, single file allows cars and cyclists to share the road. When riding single file, even with a minuscule shoulder, there is more apt to be space for the driver to safely pass and for us to keep riding. That is not the case when riding two abreast, which is more apt to require the passing to car moving into the opposite lane some.

[Nooch]

I'm curious if the woman would take to cycling to make her commute if her hardship exception were denied... Put the shoe on the other foot, so to speak..

[mack]

'sympathy'.........really?

For an aggressive, life threatening, assault with a motor vehicle.......jeez?

[firerescuefin]

'sympathy'.........really?

For an aggressive, life threatening, assault with a motor vehicle.......jeez?

Somebody had to say it.

Nothing evokes sympathy from me like trying to force riders off the road and then taking out a 16 year old with your mirror, then verbally assaulting said riders....and lying in court.

[toolman605]

Somebody had to say it.

Nothing evokes sympathy from me like trying to force riders off the road and then taking out a 16 year old with your mirror, then verbally assaulting said riders....and lying in court.

I agree - purposely trying to maim or kill someone is inexcusable.
That being said I do cringe on group rides when I see the group strung out across the entire lane and drivers are lined up behind the group.

[gasman]

I'm curious if the woman would take to cycling to make her commute if her hardship exception were denied... Put the shoe on the other foot, so to speak..

She'll almost certainly get the hardship exception as she lives in the country and works in Springfield-the real Simpson's Springfield-it's at least a 15-20 mile one way commute (not sure).
The hardship execption allows her little leeway. She can only drive to and from work and has to specify those times. She can't "run to the store, go clothes shopping , etc."-at least that's my understanding.

[William]

Not too far from your neck of the woods...

When I was attending OSU and working at the Corvallis Clinic, I ran into another employee who sounds like she could be the Corvallis version of this woman. When she heard that I was a cyclist she asked me why we always took up the whole road? She lived about 15 to 20 miles out on Decker Rd. (part of the Decker loop) that many cyclists in that area ride and train on. She not surprisingly encountered cyclists quite often when she was commuting in her pick-up and was quite irritated by those that chose to take up the whole road. I tried to explain that just like motorists, there are plenty of asses on bikes who feel they own the road. On the other hand there are also many riders that... even when they are riding two or more abreast will go single file when a car approaches. She then agreed that she had encountered both. I then went on to explain why cyclists will do that at times, especially on the flats before the climb of road she lived on. At times there can be a good cross wind there and myself and my team mates would form an echelon (explaining what that was and how it worked) to save energy and practice for races.

After talking with her she seemed to soften a bit now that she had a bit of understanding of what we were doing out there and that there were good folks and asses among us just like every where else. I'm not saying I prevented her from doing a similar thing, but who knows? Edumucation can be a good thing.:)







William

[Gummee]

Two idiots on the road today

1. 2nd car in a line of 3. 1st car passes (on a straight you can see for ~1mi) on the other side of the road. 2nd car is still completely on this side of the lane, not quite buzzing me, but close. 3rd car gives me room.

***?! You just saw how easy it is to go round me, WhyTF do you feel the need to buzz someone? ...on a straightaway no less!

2. SUV is coming up quickly just as we're reaching the crest of a hill. What do they do? Instead of waiting a few seconds to see what's coming, they go across the DY completely right at the crest of a hill. That I'm still writing this sez that nothing was coming thank doG. This is a 45mph zone with traffic coming and going from the police training center just down the way so its not like its an untraveled back road.

...all this in 50deg and rainy.

M

[gasman]

Not too far from your neck of the woods...

When I was attending OSU and working at the Corvallis Clinic, I ran into another employee who sounds like she could be the Corvallis version of this woman. When she heard that I was a cyclist she asked me why we always took up the whole road? She lived about 15 to 20 miles out on Decker Rd. (part of the Decker loop) that many cyclists in that area ride and train on. She not surprisingly encountered cyclists quite often when she was commuting in her pick-up and was quite irritated by those that chose to take up the whole road. I tried to explain that just like motorists, there are plenty of asses on bikes who feel they own the road. On the other hand there are also many riders that... even when they are riding two or more abreast will go single file when a car approaches. She then agreed that she had encountered both. I then went on to explain why cyclists will do that at times, especially on the flats before the climb of road she lived on. At times there can be a good cross wind there and myself and my team mates would form an echelon (explaining what that was and how it worked) to save energy and practice for races.

After talking with her she seemed to soften a bit now that she had a bit of understanding of what we were doing out there and that there were good folks and asses among us just like every where else. I'm not saying I prevented her from doing a similar thing, but who knows? Edumucation can be a good thing.:)







William


You did well William. I've ridden Decker myself-nice road. If I see this woman again, it's been years, I'll try the same thing. Maybe she'll listen but she might as I've had a good professional relationship with her in the past.

[William]

You did well William. I've ridden Decker myself-nice road. If I see this woman again, it's been years, I'll try the same thing. Maybe she'll listen but she might as I've had a good professional relationship with her in the past.


Worth a shot my friend. You never know...:)



William

[Chance]

In most instances, single file allows cars and cyclists to share the road. When riding single file, even with a minuscule shoulder, there is more apt to be space for the driver to safely pass and for us to keep riding. That is not the case when riding two abreast, which is more apt to require the passing to car moving into the opposite lane some.

This is my view also. Many major roads with heavier traffic are commonly built with lanes 12 feet wide. So if a bike takes 2 feet it leaves 10 feet for a 6-foot-wide car to pass. If the driver uses all of the lane it can leave at least the recommended 3-feet or so of space between car and bike. And that assumes no shoulder at all and the car not moving slightly into oncoming traffic. What seems common to me is for oncoming traffic (except for trucks that can't because of size) to move over as far as possible to allow passing vehicle to borrow some of the other lane. May not be legal for cars to cross yellow line to pass bikes but it's doubtful police will give them a ticket for using a foot or so of other lane. To me this feels safer than riding two or three abreast.

[Gummee]

This is my view also. Many major roads with heavier traffic are commonly built with lanes 12 feet wide. QUOTE]What happens out in the country where roads are narrow enough to not rate a center line?

Alternatively: if you're on a busy enough road that its wide enough how many driveways/shopping center entrances/side roads are there? Get 100' of cyclists going past em and SOMEONE is going to want to turn thru the middle of the line. Seen it happen. When 'we' don't move, they sit there in the middle of the lane, blocking traffic longer. ...or get impatient and force their way thru the line. After all, 'bikes belong on the sidewalk!'

[QUOTE]To me this feels safer than riding two or three abreast.That's where we disagree. I have enough issues riding in a 'single file of one' that I don't trust drivers as far as I can kick em down the road. ...and I'm far enough out that it *shouldn't* be a problem! Letting someone else dictate where and when they want to pass me? No thanks. I want a little control over that aspect of *my* safety.

I've been in lines and I've been in compact groups. I'll let y'all guess which one I think it better. Try it out for yourselves and see which one you like better.

M

[Dekonick]

Being angry and acting out that anger is different. I have seen cyclists do some dumb, rude and douche-baggy stuff, some of it has frustrated me and even ticked me off. As civilized folks though, we need to not act out every emotion we have. That is what message boards and comments sections are for...venting. That is why I put such little stock in it, folks need an outlet for their frustrations to be heard.

I didn't mean to do douche baggy stuff... ;)

[rugbysecondrow]

Maybe the cyclists ought not ride in strings 100' long in congestion or where there is thick traffic? Maybe they should ride in groups no longer than the average semi truck?

The assumption that everybody else in traffic ought to bend to the will and desire of a peleton of recreational cyclists is just wrong.

[QUOTE=Chance;1125760]This is my view also. Many major roads with heavier traffic are commonly built with lanes 12 feet wide. QUOTE]What happens out in the country where roads are narrow enough to not rate a center line?

Alternatively: if you're on a busy enough road that its wide enough how many driveways/shopping center entrances/side roads are there? Get 100' of cyclists going past em and SOMEONE is going to want to turn thru the middle of the line. Seen it happen. When 'we' don't move, they sit there in the middle of the lane, blocking traffic longer. ...or get impatient and force their way thru the line. After all, 'bikes belong on the sidewalk!'

That's where we disagree. I have enough issues riding in a 'single file of one' that I don't trust drivers as far as I can kick em down the road. ...and I'm far enough out that it *shouldn't* be a problem! Letting someone else dictate where and when they want to pass me? No thanks. I want a little control over that aspect of *my* safety.

I've been in lines and I've been in compact groups. I'll let y'all guess which one I think it better. Try it out for yourselves and see which one you like better.

M

[Gummee]

Maybe the cyclists ought not ride in strings 100' long in congestion or where there is thick traffic? Maybe they should ride in groups no longer than the average semi truck?

The assumption that everybody else in traffic ought to bend to the will and desire of a peleton of recreational cyclists is just wrong.
So basically we as cyclists don't have the same rights to the road as other road users?

Is that what I'm hearing? ...or is there something I'm missing?

M

[rugbysecondrow]

So basically we as cyclists don't have the same rights to the road as other road users?

Is that what I'm hearing? ...or is there something I'm missing?

M


Who is the we? By we, do you mean a conglomeration of riders rolling together or individual cyclists? That makes a difference. A mass of riders stretching out long and wide can be a major disruption to traffic, they can be dangerous and they can be a nuisance. As individuals cyclists, we have a privilege to most roads, no vehicle has a right to the road, it is a privilege. I don't think it is a reasonable expectation for all users of the road to put up with the whims of recreational cyclists playing peleton in the roadway. Roads are serious business, for flow, movement, for purpose. We ought to act like it just as drivers ought to act like it.

[CaliFly]

As individuals cyclists, we have a privilege to most roads, no vehicle has a right to the road, it is a privilege.

This. It's all about *privilege* to be using the roads whether car or bus or motorcycle or cyclist. The problem lies not the mode of transportation but in the operator(s).

Can't we all just get along? :cool:

[Rueda Tropical]

So basically we as cyclists don't have the same rights to the road as other road users?

Is that what I'm hearing? ...or is there something I'm missing?

M

Funeral processions, motorcades, etc., are special instances of vehicles taking the road for a group ride. Recreational activity doesn't really qualify. A slow moving vehicle should when possible not obstruct traffic and take the lane only when safety requires it.

Racing and drafting on public roads isn't allowed for cars. Being treated just like other vehicles with the same rights and regs would disallow the same sort of activity for cyclists.

[Climb01742]

cyclists do dumb stuff. drivers do dumb stuff. but here's a crucial difference: usually the worst impact a cyclist has on a driver is annoyance and a few moments of delay. the worst impact a driver can have on a cyclist is death or severe injury. we all do dumb stuff, but our power to inflict harm is far from equal. sometimes it feels as though drivers forget they are pushing 2 tons of metal against pounds and ounces of humanity and steel/carbon/ti/lycra.

[rugbysecondrow]

cyclists do dumb stuff. drivers do dumb stuff. but here's a crucial difference: usually the worst impact a cyclist has on a driver is annoyance and a few moments of delay. the worst impact a driver can have on a cyclist is death or severe injury. we all do dumb stuff, but our power to inflict harm is far from equal. sometimes it feels as though drivers forget they are pushing 2 tons of metal against pounds and ounces of humanity and steel/carbon/ti/lycra.
Firstly, the lady lost it, and attacked another person, her weapon was her car. That is one issue. Cyclists being dicks and gumming up the works is another.

Second, the line "just a few moments delays" is sort of a bs line. For how many motorists did one cyclists causes delays? I am not saying that there ought not be coexistence, but we ought to be aware of the impact we are having on traffic. How many people are we allowed to inconvenience for fitness? Recreating? Making the roads our playground? I ask because I think cyclists ought to think about some of that before they pick their route and time of day. I do. How can I make a compromise for what I am doing because I am going to expect others to make a compromise as well.

Second, physical damage caused is not the only criteria regarding behavior and the laws. Motorcycles, semis, cars all figure out a way to make it work well enough. Cyclist should to. Sure, they are at a disadvantage because they are slower, lighter, less mass...the weaker entity on the roadway, but so what. They deserve protection, but that doesn't excuse douchbaggery exhibited by many cyclists.

[MattTuck]

Pretty much agree, except for inconveniencing other people while recreating ;) bomp chicka bowow...

Seriously, I agree with rugby. For the most part, cyclists are adults. Why would we expect drivers to be considerate of us, if we're not considerate to them.

Sure, I roll through a few stop signs when there isn't any traffic. But I also bend over backwards to stay safe and help drivers when I see situations unfolding. If I'm riding and I know cars are going to be coming from both ahead and behind and meet at a point very near my position, I look back to make sure the driver behind me sees me, then I move over to within 2 feet of the edge of the pavement. Assuming there isn't debris/crappy pavement. They see me make the effort and they usually make an effort as well.

I don't consider that being subordinate to cars, or a denigration of cyclists as a whole. I just consider that being a good user of the road. When I'm behind the wheel, I do the same thing.

edit: the inability to control what others do with regards to cars is a big reason I ride alone most of the time. It really bothers me when a group I'm riding with doesn't let a car pass, or rides wide into the lane. I guess I just have different priorities or different sense of entitlement when it comes to the road than some others.


Firstly, the lady lost it, and attacked another person, her weapon was her car. That is one issue. Cyclists being dicks and gumming up the works is another.

Second, the line "just a few moments delays" is sort of a bs line. For how many motorists did one cyclists causes delays? I am not saying that there ought not be coexistence, but we ought to be aware of the impact we are having on traffic. How many people are we allowed to inconvenience for fitness? Recreating? Making the roads our playground? I ask because I think cyclists ought to think about some of that before they pick their route and time of day. I do. How can I make a compromise for what I am doing because I am going to expect others to make a compromise as well.

Second, physical damage caused is not the only criteria regarding behavior and the laws. Motorcycles, semis, cars all figure out a way to make it work well enough. Cyclist should to. Sure, they are at a disadvantage because they are slower, lighter, less mass...the weaker entity on the roadway, but so what. They deserve protection, but that doesn't excuse douchbaggery exhibited by many cyclists.

[Rueda Tropical]

I find there are a lot of very considerate people out there. I have had many drivers go out of there way to yield when they do not have to, etc., I try and not inconvenience others on the road whether I'm in a car or on a bike.

Douche bags will act like self-centered inconsiderate pricks no matter if they are in a car, on a bike, in a restaurant, PTA meeting or what ever. It only takes one to screw things up for everyone else.

[nebraskacycling]

I find there are a lot of very considerate people out there. I have had many drivers go out of there way to yield when they do not have to, etc., I try and not inconvenience others on the road whether I'm in a car or on a bike.

Douche bags will act like self-centered inconsiderate pricks no matter if they are in a car, on a bike, in a restaurant, PTA meeting or what ever. It only takes one to screw things up for everyone else.

I agree with you. Some people are bad apples. They drive like idiots around other cause and nearly cause accidents day in and day out. I notice this a lot when I drive near DC. People will go crazy and endanger 10+ cars just to gain 5 seconds and push in somewhere they shouldn't. This is why they go nuts when a cyclist slows them down a mere 30 seconds that it typically takes to pass. If people would just relax (when driving and riding a bike) I feel that the roads and paths would be much safer.

[chuckroast]

Pretty much agree, except for inconveniencing other people while recreating ;) bomp chicka bowow...

Seriously, I agree with rugby. For the most part, cyclists are adults. Why would we expect drivers to be considerate of us, if we're not considerate to them.

Sure, I roll through a few stop signs when there isn't any traffic. But I also bend over backwards to stay safe and help drivers when I see situations unfolding. If I'm riding and I know cars are going to be coming from both ahead and behind and meet at a point very near my position, I look back to make sure the driver behind me sees me, then I move over to within 2 feet of the edge of the pavement. Assuming there isn't debris/crappy pavement. They see me make the effort and they usually make an effort as well.

I don't consider that being subordinate to cars, or a denigration of cyclists as a whole. I just consider that being a good user of the road. When I'm behind the wheel, I do the same thing.

edit: the inability to control what others do with regards to cars is a big reason I ride alone most of the time. It really bothers me when a group I'm riding with doesn't let a car pass, or rides wide into the lane. I guess I just have different priorities or different sense of entitlement when it comes to the road than some others.

99% of my riding is solo anymore, for just that reason. I'd rather be in charge of my own courtesy on the road.