Any experience with Tune hubs

[Kevin]

I am thinking of having a new set of wheels built with Tune hubs (mig 66 and mag 160), sapim cx-ray spokes and either Velocity Aerohead or DT RR 1.1 rims. Does anyone have any experience and/or comments with Tune hubs or any of the other items? Any help would be appreciated.

Kevin

[Serpico]

the guys over at weightweenies like these, but they might evaluate hubs differently than you

good luck

[Jeremy]

Hi Kevin,

I have alot of experience with Tune hubs. They are very nice. Light and stiff. I would recommend that you use the mig 70/mag 190, rather than the mig 66/mag 160 though. The mig66 is an older model that uses a 12mm axle. The mig 70 is the newest version and it uses a 15mm axle. The mig 70 also has smoother bearings than the mig 66. The mag 160 has a carbon axle. The mag 190 has an aluminum axle. The mag 160 is not adjustable and requires a very good mechanic to deal with any bearing drag or play issues. The mag 190 is easily adjustable with two 5mm allen wrenches. The mig 66 is not currently produced and weighs approximately 75 g. The mig 70 weighs approximately 75 g. The mag 160 is about 20 g lighter than the mag 190 and costs alot more however, it does come with ceramic bearings as well. I would strongly recommend the mag 190 over the mag 160. It is only a little heavier, but it is adjustable, less expensive and more durable. Overall, they are great hubs and will build into a wonderful wheelset.

Jeremy

[1centaur]

1) A common feeling is that very light hubs use small bearing to reduce weight but that those bearings are not as good (perhaps durable?) as "regular" sized bearings. Any truth to that thought, and do Tune hubs use smaller than average bearings?

2) Poshbikes.com shows the mag160 and a mag200, implying that the 190 is no longer made. Would that be an incorrect assumption? If so, any advantage to the 190 vs. the 200?

3) How would you rate the a) smoothness and b) quietness of the freewheel of Tune hubs vs. what seems to be the forum favorite (and so far mine) Hugi 240s?

Thank you.

BTW - I was thinking of exactly the same build and wondered if the weight savings vs. the Hugi 240s would have a negative implication in another area, so this thread is very well timed.

[Jeremy]

Hi Centaur,

The front hub uses a 15X24X5 bearing which is a very nice bearing overall. The rear hub uses a 15X28X7 bearing which is very durable and has larger balls than the front. I have not had problems with either of these bearings.

The mag 190 is the new name for the mag 200. Tune changes the names alot. The mag 200 had a steel driver ring, while the mag 190 has a ti driver ring. The names of the hubs change to reflect the approximate weight of the hubs. The mag 190 is the newest version of the hub.

The Tune hub has an oversized driver ring with three simulataneously engaging pawls. The engagement arc is 15 degrees. The Hugi has a star ratchet (serrated clutch) engagement mechanism. Both are good, but the diameter of the engagement surface is much larger on the Tune which seems to make it a little stiffer. Tune uses an alloy cassette body, which is fine for the torque loads of road use, but may be innappropriate for the increased loads of heavy duty MTB use. I have retro fit Tune hubs to use a titanium cassette body to great results. The Tune hub has a different sound than the Hugi, it is higher pitched and perhaps not quite as loud. The bearing quality and smoothness is similar on both hubs.

The center right dimension and the diameter of the drive side flange are bigger on the Tune hub than the Hugi. Flange spacing is also wider on the Tune hub. I believe that Tune hubs will build into a stronger and stiffer wheel than a Hugi hub. As far as I know, newer Hugi hubs default to Campy drive side flange to locknut spacing, even on Shimano compatible hubs. I believe that this is done to make it easier to manufacture and swap cassette bodies. However, this makes a Shimano compatible wheel weaker than it needs to be. Overall, I prefer the Tune hubs.

Thanks,

Jeremy

[ada@prorider.or]

Hi Centaur,

The front hub uses a 15X24X5 bearing which is a very nice bearing overall.


well normaly i do not give comments on ohters product's out of respect for them
but saying that a 15x24x5 is a good bearing is a liitle to much
for a freehweel i can agree but a single row bearing?
in this size

i suggest look at its tech data before you buy them
at least i think you do not replace those regularly
or do you

FAG-Rillenkugellager 61802 2Z
Hauptabmessungen nach DIN 625-1, beidseitig Spaltdichtung
d 15 mm
D 24 mm
B 5 mm
m 0,007 kg
Gewicht
nB 23800 1/min
Bezugsdrehzahl
nG Fett 28000 1/min
Grenzdrehzahl für Fettschmierung
Cr 1650 N
dynamische Tragzahl, radial
C0r 800 N
statische Tragzahl, radial
Cur 33 N
Ermüdungsgrenzbelastung radial

[Jeremy]

Hi ADA,

I think it is sufficient for the loads on a road front hub. I replace alot of bearings that fail on all sorts of hubs. Improper preload adjustment and contamination are the primary sources of bearing "failure". Campy uses a 17X26X5 bearing in their bottom brackets, which endures alot more load than a front hub. That bearing has the same ball size as the 15X24X5 bearing that Tune uses on their front hubs. Many hubs use smaller bearings or smaller diameter axles, which can be problematic as well. Obviously, larger balls are more durable. They are also heavier and have more inertial drag. Alas, all of life involves trade-offs. Each person needs to decide what works best for them.

Jeremy

[ada@prorider.or]

Hi ADA,

I think it is sufficient for the loads on a road front hub. I replace alot of bearings that fail on all sorts of hubs. Improper preload adjustment and contamination are the primary sources of bearing "failure". Campy uses a 17X26X5 bearing in their bottom brackets, which endures alot more load than a front hub. That bearing has the same ball size as the 15X24X5 bearing that Tune uses on their front hubs. Many hubs use smaller bearings or smaller diameter axles, which can be problematic as well. Obviously, larger balls are more durable. They are also heavier and have more inertial drag. Alas, all of life involves trade-offs. Each person needs to decide what works best for them.

Jeremy

17x26x5

is a total differant bearing!
if you only look at 33 n ermudunng
this means in a real world you only can get 3.3 kg force
on rings thats really to low with let say a weight of rider 60 kg
one good hard bump in ideal fitting bearing housing and you have a damage

[Jeremy]

Yes,

The 17X26X5 bearing is different. It has a slightly higher static capacity than a 15X24X5 bearing. In the "real world", as you say, the 15X24X5 bearing that Tune uses can withstand thousands of "good hard bumps" without being damaged. Sorry, but the "one good hard bump and it's damaged" that you describe does not happen on the real world.

Jeremy

[ada@prorider.or]

Yes,

The 17X26X5 bearing is different. It has a slightly higher static capacity than a 15X24X5 bearing. In the "real world", as you say, the 15X24X5 bearing that Tune uses can withstand thousands of "good hard bumps" without being damaged. Sorry, but the "one good hard bump and it's damaged" that you describe does not happen on the real world.

Jeremy


well ok wish you luck with the hub
a bb does not have the direct impact a front hub sees
we can have a long dicussion about this with stess calc and all also example's
of both design's but make no sense
i you are happy with it ok then its good enough for you
only i would make it for let say a wheel for one or two time's racing

3.3 kg i do not know where you ride but what i have seen the road 's in usa you like to hit a put hole
i can assure you the races of the bearing is damaged
of course you can the ride tousends of miles but with damaged race's of bearing

[Jeremy]

ADA,

Respectfully,

I think you are confusing static and dynamic capacity.

Jeremy

[ada@prorider.or]

ADA,

Respectfully,

I think you are confusing static and dynamic capacity.

Jeremy

no i talk about ermudung

this is not static or dynamic

[The Spider]

As a side note to the bearing discussion, Lightweight wheels use the Hugi 240s in the standard (I feel embarrassed to call any Lightweight product 'standard') whiulst the Obermayer uses the Tune 160 hub....

however...

I was reading an interview where it was stated that they replace the carbon fibre axle in the 160 hub with the aluminium of the 190 hub.

I have recently ordered 70/190 and currently run Hugi 240s so am very interested with the comparison.

Thank you Jeremy for your opinion and comparison information.

[Sandy]

When I picked up my wheel with the fixed Dura-Ace hub, I decided to leave my rear wheel that you built with the Tune hub. I figured that it would be a good idea for it to be seviced. The shop told me that they tried to get in touch with Tune to find out about specifications and bearings, but they had little success in reaching them. What do you suggest that they do?


Sandy

Hope that you are doing well!! I received the wheel for my fixed gear bike. Thanks!!

[The Spider]

Service of Tune hubs....

Are any special tools required to service the hubs?

[Jeremy]

When I picked up my wheel with the fixed Dura-Ace hub, I decided to leave my rear wheel that you built with the Tune hub. I figured that it would be a good idea for it to be seviced. The shop told me that they tried to get in touch with Tune to find out about specifications and bearings, but they had little success in reaching them. What do you suggest that they do?


Sandy

Hope that you are doing well!! I received the wheel for my fixed gear bike. Thanks!!

Hi Sandy,

Have them contact me if they would like. I will send them service info.

Jeremy

[Kevin]

Hi Kevin,

I have alot of experience with Tune hubs. They are very nice. Light and stiff. I would recommend that you use the mig 70/mag 190, rather than the mig 66/mag 160 though. The mig66 is an older model that uses a 12mm axle. The mig 70 is the newest version and it uses a 15mm axle. The mig 70 also has smoother bearings than the mig 66. The mag 160 has a carbon axle. The mag 190 has an aluminum axle. The mag 160 is not adjustable and requires a very good mechanic to deal with any bearing drag or play issues. The mag 190 is easily adjustable with two 5mm allen wrenches. The mig 66 is not currently produced and weighs approximately 75 g. The mig 70 weighs approximately 75 g. The mag 160 is about 20 g lighter than the mag 190 and costs alot more however, it does come with ceramic bearings as well. I would strongly recommend the mag 190 over the mag 160. It is only a little heavier, but it is adjustable, less expensive and more durable. Overall, they are great hubs and will build into a wonderful wheelset.

Jeremy

Jeremy,

I am guessing that you are the Jeremy that is the US distributor for Tune. The Tune website does not refer to a mig 70, it lists the mig 66 and the mig 75. Is the mig 70 different and when is it going to be available? I also don't see a mag 190 on the Tune website. Instead it lists a mag 160, mag 180 and mag 200. Were you referring to one of these hubs, or is their a new hub that is being offered? Thanks for any insight.

Kevin

[Kevin]

I decided to leave my rear wheel that you built with the Tune hub. I figured that it would be a good idea for it to be seviced. The shop told me that they tried to get in touch with Tune to find out about specifications and bearings, but they had little success in reaching them.
Sandy



Sandy,

Which Tune hubs do you have? Any comments, good, bad or indifferent? Thanks.

Kevin

[Climb01742]

if "jeremy" is jeremy of santa fe, then i have a wheelset he built for me using tune hubs. i've put a season of crappy new england roads on the wheels and they are as sweet rolling and true today as they were out of the box. i'm not smart enough to follow the technical discussion taking place, but as for the real world -- and our roads here are about as really bad as they get -- jeremy's wheels and tune hubs have held up flawlessly for me. and i've whacked a few potholes, trust me. ;)

[Kevin]

Climb,

Thanks for the info. All of the technical talk was also over my head. Jeremy "the distributor" is also from Sant Fe. So we may be getting some very current info on the Tune offerings.

Kevin

[Jeremy]

Hi Kevin,

Unfortunately the Tune website is out of date. The mig 66 no longer exists, it was replaced by the mig 75. For reasons that are not clear to me, Tune started referring to the mig 75 as the mig 70. It is the same hub though. The mag 190 used to be called the mag 200, but as the weight got to approximately 190 g with the introduction of a titanium driver ring, Tune started calling it the mag 190. I try to stay on top of all of the changes going on, but alot of the changes are literally in name, and can become very confusing.

Technically I am the Tune distributer, but it is not nearly as grandiose as one might think. I have been using Tune hubs for years as an option for custom wheelbuilds. It was nearly impossible for me to get them reliably through any US distributer. I started ordering directly through Tune and eventually they told me that I needed to become the "distributer" if I wanted to continue ordering the hubs. They also asked me to become the US service and warranty center for Tune. My decision to become the "distributer" was predicated by my desire to continue using their hubs, not the other way round. Tune focuses much more on the European market than the US market. All of my knowledge about the hubs has come from my own use, service and disassembly of them.

Most Tune hubs are easy to service and it can be done without special tools. Some of them, like the mag 160, are difficult to service. Anyone who has any of these hubs can contact me and I will help them in any way that I can.

My intention in answering Kevin's original question was not to plug Tune hubs, but merely to respond to his query. I use many different hubs in the wheels that I build. There are alot of nice hubs available, each of which have their own strengths and weaknesses, including Tune.

Thanks,

Jeremy

[Kevin]

Hi Kevin,

My intention in answering Kevin's original question was not to plug Tune hubs, but merely to respond to his query. I use many different hubs in the wheels that I build. There are alot of nice hubs available, each of which have their own strengths and weaknesses, including Tune.

Thanks,

Jeremy

Jeremy,

I did not mean to imply that you were plugging Tune. I was just noting that because of your position that you had more knowledge than the rest of us. :beer:

Kevin

[93legendti]

if "jeremy" is jeremy of santa fe, then i have a wheelset he built for me using tune hubs. i've put a season of crappy new england roads on the wheels and they are as sweet rolling and true today as they were out of the box. i'm not smart enough to follow the technical discussion taking place, but as for the real world -- and our roads here are about as really bad as they get -- jeremy's wheels and tune hubs have held up flawlessly for me. and i've whacked a few potholes, trust me. ;)

Ditto for me.

[Smiley]

Like most of the knowledgeable dignitaries on this website Jeremy of Alchemy Bicycle Works from Santa Fe , NM is the same Jeremy here that imparts wisdom on anything wheels especially Tune components that he uses . I only reccomend Jeremy wheel builds for clients that buy Serotta's from me , don't get me wrong I used to suggest others but I LIKE Jeremy cause he's an outside the box thinker and has exceeded many of my clients expectations on their wheels which in turn makes my bike fits even better cause nothings KILLS the ride of a new bike but a set of Gucci pre-built wheels not designed for the rider weight and frame material in mind . Jeremy GETS THIS POINT . Now if our friend Cees is right about Tune hubs and axel's then I should have sent my rear wheel back by now since the kid in me still likes to bunny hop every speed bump I encounter with my Jeremy built wheels . Jeremy just built a set of wheels using some South African rim maker for a client that is picking up a C-III with Ultegra , the frame is a size 63 cm with a 60 TT for a 175 lb rider . he's gona love these wheels .

Kevin , take a bit of advise from me and contact Jeremy for your wheels .

[Kevin]

Kevin , take a bit of advise from me and contact Jeremy for your wheels .

Smiley,

I did not realize that you were a mind reader.

Kevin

[Climb01742]

Kevin , take a bit of advise from me and contact Jeremy for your wheels .

what smiley said. so jeremy IS jeremy. dude, i love my wheels. love, love, love. only problem? jeremy now has an even longer wait time. good for him, he's earned his success.

[93legendti]

what smiley said. so jeremy IS jeremy. dude, i love my wheels. love, love, love. only problem? jeremy now has an even longer wait time. good for him, he's earned his success.

What Climb said and thanks Climb for turning me on to Jeremy.

[divve]

I've been a lurker on this board for quite some time, but don't really feel comfortable posting here as I don't ride a Serotta. However, due to the general confusion on this thread regarding bearings and model numbers etc., I thought I might be of some help.

Current models are MIG 70 front hub, MAG 190 rear hub, MAG 160 rear hub (replaced soon by the MAG 150). Both of which not very stiff due to a carbon axle.:crap: Avoid if you're not obsessed about saving every last gram possible.

MIG 66/75 front hub:
12mm axle
2x 3801 2RS double row bearings
Non user adjustable play

MIG 70 front hub:
15mm axle
2x 61802 2RS single row bearings
Adjustable play

MAG 200 rear hub:
15mm axle
(from left to right)
1x 61902 2RS bearing, 1x XOT custom bearing, 1x 61802 2 RS bearing
Adjustable play - can be externally recognized by copper serrated adjustment cap


MAG 190 rear hub
15mm axle
Ti driver ring
1x 61902 2 RS bearing, 1x XOT custom bearing, 1x 61802 2 RS bearing
Adjustable play - aluminum adjustment cap

MAG 160 same as above but with carbon axle and ceramic bearings
Non user adjustable play

Special bearing tools are required for servicing and a pulley to remove the free hub body. Tune sells a tool-set W-MAG, but it's rather outdated and requires a little ingenuity and additional bearing press tools to work with the latest hubs. You'll also require Loctite 603 to glue in the bearings and a heat gun to remove them.

The latest hubs are very reliable for all types of road riding. The only reservation I would have is frequent wet weather riding.

Note, that although they use regularly available bearing sizes for the most part, they custom fill them with a special grease.

[1centaur]

Many people here do not own Serottas (including me), but this is a relatively civilized (most of the time) place for a lot of knowledgable people to tell the rest of us interesting things we don't know. Based on your posts on other boards, you are a welcome addition.

I expect Jeremy may reply to your post anyway, but I'm interested in the wet weather comment - could you elaborate?

[Sandy]

It is totally unimportant whether you own a Serotta to post on this forum. There are many posters who do not own a Serotta. Perhaps one day you will. Perhaps not. I own 2 and really do enjoy trenmendously how they ride, but I would think that you are most welcomed here. Please continue to post.

Sandy

[divve]

Thanks for welcoming me.

In answer to your question, the only protection the bearings have are their own rubber shields. For the remainder they're only covered by axle-ends without any rubber lip or labyrinth system. The only exception is the contact area between free hub body and hub. It has a rubber o-ring to prevent dirt intrusion. Over all I doubt this is sufficient to prevent water and dirt intrusion due to long term exposure in adverse weather conditions.

[ThylacineCycles]

I run Tune hubs laced to DT RR1.1 rims. The hubs are okay so far. The front came supplied with a centre spacer that was out of spec so the hub could slide back and forth on the axle, but apart from that, no troubles.

I don't think they're as precise and as nicely made as say Chris Kings or DT240s, but if you're a weenie, I think they'd serve you pretty well. They're obscenely light and have survived my 200lbs over the past 18 months, so I guess I can recommend them.

[The Spider]

Divve,

Welcome! Don't worry about your brand of bike...in the deep dark recesses of the net no one can see what you ride anyway.

Thank you for your comments on my tool question. Being down under I don't have a distributor so I was thinking of importing a W-Mag tool for the hubs, but since they haven't even been built up yet (probably in 6 months) I might leave it and see if it gets updated.

I also believe that Tour magazine did a test on rear hubs and the alumium axle 200 (now 190 folks) was one of the stiffest.

[Jeremy]

Special bearing tools are required for servicing and a pulley to remove the free hub body. Tune sells a tool-set W-MAG, but it's rather outdated and requires a little ingenuity and additional bearing press tools to work with the latest hubs. You'll also require Loctite 603 to glue in the bearings and a heat gun to remove them.

The latest hubs are very reliable for all types of road riding. The only reservation I would have is frequent wet weather riding.

Note, that although they use regularly available bearing sizes for the most part, they custom fill them with a special grease.

Hi Divve,

Thanks for adding the info. Tune does sell a tool kit for servicing the hubs, and although it is nice to have, it is not really necessary. Older models that did not have allen fittings in the axle ends required an axle vise to hold one side and a pair of pliers to remove the threaded locknut on the drive side. Newer models need a 5mm allen wrench in each end to remove the locknut. The axle can be removed easily with a 10mm X 1/4" drive socket and extension. This fits inside the 15mm bearing and can be used to press the axle out from the drive to non drive side. The cassette body can easily be removed by hand and does not require a puller. Older models bonded the custom double bearing to the cassette body and it pressed into the hub shell w/o loctite. Newer models bond the custom bearing into the hub shell and the cassette body presses onto the bearing w/o loctite. It can be removed and installed by hand. Of course a bearing press is required to install the bearings w/o loading the inner race, but that is a tool that is not specific to Tune. Bicycle research makes a wonderful bearing press that can be used for this application. Overall, they are very easy to service and a mechanic with a little ingenuity can service them without the tool kit from Tune.

To my knowledge the mig66/75 (road/MTB) is no longer available and has been replaced by the mig 70. For awhile, Tune called this hub the mig75. I guess they changed the name to seperate it from the older mig75. The mig70 uses a butted 15mm axle (15mm at the bearing ends and tapered to 14mm in the center section). For awhile, the mag200 had the allen endacps and not the serrated brass/aluminum of the older models. At least I was receiving what Tune was calling the mag200 with the new style endcaps for quite some time. They changed the name just before Interbike last year. Another difference between the older mag200 and the newer mag190, besides the ti driver ring, is that the wall thickness of the axle on the older hub increased as it passed through the double bearing.

In addition to the hubs that you describe there is the mag160AL, which is a mag190 with ceramic bearings. I also completely agree with you about the carbon axle versions. They are a little lighter, but they are hard to adjust, not as stiff or durable and alot more expensive. Anyway, welcome to the forum.

Thanks,

Jeremy

[divve]

Jeremy,

I've found the fit of the freehub body can be pretty tight at times. It's pressed onto the XOT bearing (yes no Loctite on that one, but the outer left rear and front bearings are bonded).

A similar example are DT Swiss hubs, where they claim a "no tool" concept. However, when it comes down to properly servicing their hubs or when something is stuck, you'll need special tools, i.e., stuff that most people don't have laying around in their toolbox.

Regards,

david