First EPS build!

[Kontact]

Oschner tells me that the Super Record EPS group I installed today is the first one they know of. It turned out pretty well, despite some challenges.

I removed the customer's regular Super Record on a Willier Zero 7 and started to put the new parts in place. For compact cranks you must use the EPS version of the crank, the power pack doesn't come charged, and Campy has never shipped the tech manuals. This particular bike had the bottle bosses in a place where the power pack would prevent a seat tube cage from being installed.

So I called Campy USA for instructions on set up procedures - it had been awhile since I went to EPS training. They said they still didn't have manuals and couldn't email a PDF copy. Later I found that there was a PDF tech manual on the EPS site - I guess I had better let Campy USA know that.

A note for the front derailleur - they tell you in training to get a 7mm crows foot for use with a torque wrench, but that seemed imprecise. But I found that a 12 sided 8mm socket fit really nicely on the four sided fixing bolt and works better on the torque wrench.

I used some aluminum flat stock to make a new mount - I put four bends in it, then used the original mount as a screw hole template, then ground it to shape so it fits in the recessed bottom of the control unit/battery. This left a inch and half section that stood out from the bottom of the unit that I put foam double stick tape on and fished three heavy zip ties through it and attached it under the down tube. With the rubber block built into the battery, the mounting is very stout. I also used some DI2 cable guides, bundled the shifter cables and used the large space in the levers to stow them. All the cable slack were bundled together with a single zip tie and then the secured under the BB by wrapping the tie end around the bb cable guide screw and tightened down.

For a completely non-electric prepped frame, it all came out pretty clean. And it works really well - easy to set up, very ergonomic and shifts very positively. EPS would definitely be my first choice for electric shifting.

[apeescape]

We alomst pulled the trigger on a group to play with but oschener didnt have all the parts, missing some bracket. I did get to ride it on an orbea the other day though. Unfortunately it was poorly adjust and the front der. wouldnt shift at all. Did the kit come with that awesome little tool for pulling internal cables through a frame? I saw it during the training and thought it was pretty slick! I cannot wait to get my hands on that beautiful grouppo!

[jpw]

I used some aluminum flat stock to make a new mount - I put four bends in it, then used the original mount as a screw hole template, then ground it to shape so it fits in the recessed bottom of the control unit/battery. This left a inch and half section that stood out from the bottom of the unit that I put foam double stick tape on and fished three heavy zip ties through it and attached it under the down tube. With the rubber block built into the battery, the mounting is very stout. I also used some DI2 cable guides, bundled the shifter cables and used the large space in the levers to stow them. All the cable slack were bundled together with a single zip tie and then the secured under the BB by wrapping the tie end around the bb cable guide screw and tightened down.



Is that a thousand words?:)

Photo please.

[thinpin]

Sounds like McIver's needed for the worlds most advanced group.

[AngryScientist]

what happened to the old Super Record Group??:D

quick question: you say that you must use the EPS version of the crankset for an EPS set-up, why is this ?

[Ti Designs]

I removed the customer's regular Super Record on...

And that's where I stop reading.

I can see if someone is building a new bike, electronic shifting may be an option. I'm sure there are some advantages - I can't think of any, but I'm sure someone can and has. But to remove a working group to put on something "better" makes no sense to me. What about Super Record didn't work well enough? next question, how 'bout the rider. If you're going to look for every ounce of performance, start with the lump in the saddle. For what EPS costs you could have someone yank all of the teeth out of your head - you don't need them to consume Gu.

[oldpotatoe]

And that's where I stop reading.

I can see if someone is building a new bike, electronic shifting may be an option. I'm sure there are some advantages - I can't think of any, but I'm sure someone can and has. But to remove a working group to put on something "better" makes no sense to me. What about Super Record didn't work well enough? next question, how 'bout the rider. If you're going to look for every ounce of performance, start with the lump in the saddle. For what EPS costs you could have someone yank all of the teeth out of your head - you don't need them to consume Gu.

Gent came in to tell me about a bike called 'Olympia'..He's gonna bring it in to show me...carbon frame, EPS, WET disc brakes, he said reservoir in the levers(?)...15.5 pounds and $22,000........I asked 'why', he didn't have an answer but he'll show it to me. I'll take pix.

BTW-I think this is about the same price.

http://www.ducati.com/bikes/superbike/1199_panigale/index.do

[Kontact]

The dude's going to put the SR on his Chorus bike. Don't worry, it is going to be okay.


And the McGiver-ing was mainly because of Willier weirdness, not Campy's. The Zero 7 has the seat tube cage mounted about as low as possible - very unusual on a 54cm frame.

[jr59]

Gent came in to tell me about a bike called 'Olympia'..He's gonna bring it in to show me...carbon frame, EPS, WET disc brakes, he said reservoir in the levers(?)...15.5 pounds and $22,000........I asked 'why', he didn't have an answer but he'll show it to me. I'll take pix.

BTW-I think this is about the same price.

http://www.ducati.com/bikes/superbike/1199_panigale/index.do


That's some duc!

[AngryScientist]

quick question: you say that you must use the EPS version of the crankset for an EPS set-up, why is this ?

quoted for answer...

[Ramjm_2000]

quick question: you say that you must use the EPS version of the crankset for an EPS set-up, why is this ?

+1. This is very disappointing to me. I assume its a FD issue but what exactly is the issue that would require a special compact for EPS? :confused:

[tsarpepe]

Gent came in to tell me about a bike called 'Olympia'..He's gonna bring it in to show me...carbon frame, EPS, WET disc brakes, he said reservoir in the levers(?)...15.5 pounds and $22,000........I asked 'why', he didn't have an answer but he'll show it to me. I'll take pix.



My guess is that he will show you an Olympia Boost equipped with EPS. This is their highest model, but I have no idea how he managed to spend $22k on it. The Boost with Di2 is listed at about half that.



http://www.angeluccicicli.it/store/images/large/OLYMPIA%20CORSA%202012/boost_black-durace_LRG.jpg

[ergott]

wet disc brakes, means hydraulic disc brakes. Considering there are no production levers with internal reservoirs yet let alone for Campagnolo EPS, I can see how that price tag makes sense.

[Germany_chris]

My guess is that he will show you an Olympia Boost equipped with EPS. This is their highest model, but I have no idea how he managed to spend $22k on it. The Boost with Di2 is listed at about half that.



http://www.angeluccicicli.it/store/images/large/OLYMPIA%20CORSA%202012/boost_black-durace_LRG.jpg

Thats a whole lotta ugly!!

[FixedNotBroken]

Thats a whole lotta ugly!!

Oh really? Define ugly..or maybe the price tag is ugly for you personally? If you were given that bike you would ride it.

[tsarpepe]

I find one thing particularly ugly: all the lines of the bike are broad and stout, but then in front you have that puny little stem sticking out as the snout of an anteater. To fit the rest of the design, it needs to be much longer and fatter.

[jpw]

If you were given that bike you would ride it.

No.

I'd strip the components off, put them on a real frame, and send the rest for recycling.

[choke]

Gent came in to tell me about a bike called 'Olympia'..He's gonna bring it in to show me...carbon frame, EPS, WET disc brakes, he said reservoir in the levers(?)...15.5 pounds and $22,000........I asked 'why', he didn't have an answer but he'll show it to me. I'll take pix.

BTW-I think this is about the same price.

http://www.ducati.com/bikes/superbike/1199_panigale/index.doThe Ducati is less expensive....MSRP is $17,995.

[akelman]

then in front you have that puny little stem sticking out as the snout of an anteater

I just showed my anteater a picture of that bike and then read him this. He demands an apology.

[akelman]

First they came for the yaks, and I did not speak out because I am not a yak. Then they came for the anteaters, and I did not speak out because I am not an anteater.

Well, you know the rest. Who will speak out before it's too late?

[torquer]

wet disc brakes, means hydraulic disc brakes. Considering there are no production levers with internal reservoirs yet let alone for Campagnolo EPS, I can see how that price tag makes sense.
These work for either version of Shimano's e-shifting:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/04/bikes-and-tech/formula-di2-road-discs-good-enough-for-nys_214347
Shouldn't be long before some creative hackers come up with a Vicenza-friendly version.

I'm eager to hear about the reasons for that crankset incompatibility, too.

[jpw]

These work for either version of Shimano's e-shifting:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/04/bikes-and-tech/formula-di2-road-discs-good-enough-for-nys_214347
Shouldn't be long before some creative hackers come up with a Vicenza-friendly version.

I'm eager to hear about the reasons for that crankset incompatibility, too.

I love this kind of inventive hack.

[fatallightning]

My guess is that he will show you an Olympia Boost equipped with EPS. This is their highest model, but I have no idea how he managed to spend $22k on it. The Boost with Di2 is listed at about half that.



http://www.angeluccicicli.it/store/images/large/OLYMPIA%20CORSA%202012/boost_black-durace_LRG.jpg

looks a lot like the cipo bike.
http://shop.turramurracyclery.com.au/product_images/d/489/Naked_Silver_Orange__69344_zoom.jpg

[tsarpepe]

I just showed my anteater a picture of that bike and then read him this. He demands an apology.

All I can say in my defense is that the anteater snout looks proper on an anteater, but on a $10k bike it does not.

[Germany_chris]

Oh really? Define ugly..or maybe the price tag is ugly for you personally? If you were given that bike you would ride it.


Bicycles, especially road bicycles need to be svelte like a gymnast or swimmer not broad and masculine like that bike. That bike reminds me of a body builder everything is extreme and exaggerated for IMHO no good reason.

There is likely no a CF bike I do like to include even more traditional designs.

The bikes I do like are just to traditional, I like Jan Heine's type bikes.

As to whether I'd ride it, if you mean more than around the block no probably not. I don't see any place to mount fenders, and my B17 would make the bike uglier. If given the bike I'd sell it and take the money and have a Ti Rando bike built.

On to the personal jab, I never have nor will I comment about what things cost. I have no way to asses the value you place on your objects. I think my old man paid about 18,000 to much for his Harley, but he values it at more.

[jpw]

It's the style of bike a steroid user should try riding.

[Kontact]

what happened to the old Super Record Group??:D

quick question: you say that you must use the EPS version of the crankset for an EPS set-up, why is this ?

I imagine they changed the chainrings, and didn't want any confusion with their other cranks that shift fine with mechanical derailleurs. In the future they will probably all be like the EPS crank, but in the meantime they don't want people thinking the regular SR compact crank is somehow a downgrade.

[Kontact]

looks a lot like the cipo bike.
http://shop.turramurracyclery.com.au/product_images/d/489/Naked_Silver_Orange__69344_zoom.jpg

They both look like props from the Batman movie where George Clooney's suit had nipples.

[old_fat_and_slow]

That Rube Goldberg seatpost is sho' nuff FUGLY.

[Louis]

First they came for the yaks, and I did not speak out because I am not a yak. Then they came for the anteaters, and I did not speak out because I am not an anteater.

Well, you know the rest. Who will speak out before it's too late?

As long as they don't come for my DT shifters...

[fatallightning]

I imagine they changed the chainrings, and didn't want any confusion with their other cranks that shift fine with mechanical derailleurs. In the future they will probably all be like the EPS crank, but in the meantime they don't want people thinking the regular SR compact crank is somehow a downgrade.

This is the first time I've heard of an EPS specific crankset. They didn't mention this in our seminar, nor in any techs I've seen. Campy website just shows normal Record/SR cranks.

[Kontact]

This is the first time I've heard of an EPS specific crankset. They didn't mention this in our seminar, nor in any techs I've seen. Campy website just shows normal Record/SR cranks.

This link talks about it:
http://www.pistapalace.com/eps_deal.html

Only for compacts, though. This wasn't mentioned at my class in February, either. I would assume it is one of Campy's famous "running changes".

[jpw]

And that's where I stop reading.

I can see if someone is building a new bike, electronic shifting may be an option. I'm sure there are some advantages - I can't think of any, but I'm sure someone can and has. But to remove a working group to put on something "better" makes no sense to me. What about Super Record didn't work well enough? next question, how 'bout the rider. If you're going to look for every ounce of performance, start with the lump in the saddle. For what EPS costs you could have someone yank all of the teeth out of your head - you don't need them to consume Gu.

I do like the idea of being able to dump the whole cassette in one thumb movement.

In about ten years from now (no, make that five years) Campagnolo and the rest will each be offering a super special edition and uber hard to get (initialy).. m e c h a n i c a l ..gruppo, with this and that and every other rare earth element composite nano negative grammo 'innovation'. The wheel does turn. Can't wait:rolleyes:

[fatallightning]

This link talks about it:
http://www.pistapalace.com/eps_deal.html

Only for compacts, though. This wasn't mentioned at my class in February, either. I would assume it is one of Campy's famous "running changes".

I think they're referring to the fact that you need an 11 speed compatible compact crank, not specifically an 11 speed EPS. Although I don't know why they would say compact specifically. Though I could be wrong, Campy NA is the worst about getting information out. OldP to the rescue?

[jmoore]

This thread needs some Eddy.

http://ebay.klijkens.be/ebay/noseddyme-1333303120-12335.jpg

[Kontact]

I think they're referring to the fact that you need an 11 speed compatible compact crank, not specifically an 11 speed EPS. Although I don't know why they would say compact specifically. Though I could be wrong, Campy NA is the worst about getting information out. OldP to the rescue?

No, it is an EPS specific crank for just the compact, it is probably for chainring profiles with the harder to shift compact chainrings. This comes directly from Oschner, one of the longest standing Campy suppliers in the US. And Campy USA will confirm it. I don't know if OldP has seen an EPS unit in his shop.

[old_fat_and_slow]

This thread needs some Eddy.


that was funny ! Nice job. :D

[fatallightning]

No, it is an EPS specific crank for just the compact, it is probably for chainring profiles with the harder to shift compact chainrings. This comes directly from Oschner, one of the longest standing Campy suppliers in the US. And Campy USA will confirm it. I don't know if OldP has seen an EPS unit in his shop.

I wonder what would work better on electronic vs mech shifting. Or if they're just burlier rings to resist flex when the motored derailleur pushes on it.

[jmoore]

that was funny ! Nice job. :D

:chapeau:

56cm NOS Strada on ebay right now. $800 BIN

[Kontact]

I wonder what would work better on electronic vs mech shifting. Or if they're just burlier rings to resist flex when the motored derailleur pushes on it.

Someone with the time could probably figure it out, but I imagine Campy would rather play it down to avoid the situation where mech buyers demand EPS rings, when they don't necessarily do anything better for mechanical shifting.

All the electric front shifters, Di2 and EPS, shift under tremendous torque. Both FDs have all sorts of warnings about how they need to be mounted and specific hardware. So the 110mm BCD 50 tooth rings, which aren't as supported as much as a 135mm 53, probably did need to be beefed up to resist flex that a normal FD simply couldn't produce.

[Charles M]

Gent came in to tell me about a bike called 'Olympia'..He's gonna bring it in to show me...carbon frame, EPS, WET disc brakes, he said reservoir in the levers(?)...15.5 pounds and $22,000........I asked 'why', he didn't have an answer but he'll show it to me. I'll take pix.

BTW-I think this is about the same price.

http://www.ducati.com/bikes/superbike/1199_panigale/index.do


I saw a set up yesterday that would do this... It wasn't Panigale priced, but He has more in it than I have in this...

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/tech/pezduc1.jpg

[TMB]

Oh really? Define ugly..or maybe the price tag is ugly for you personally? If you were given that bike you would ride it.

Take a look at the picture again. Ugly.

Would I ride it if given it? Possibly once to see what it is like, then I would sell it. It is, to my eye, UGLY and I would have no desire to keep it.

And what on earth does the price tag have to do with anything?

[TMB]

This thread needs some Eddy.

http://ebay.klijkens.be/ebay/noseddyme-1333303120-12335.jpg

See,

If someone gave me THAT bike, I would ride it. ( as long as it wasn't jmoore's size!).

[TMB]

:chapeau:

56cm NOS Strada on ebay right now. $800 BIN

Damn you!

[FixedNotBroken]

Take a look at the picture again. Ugly.

Would I ride it if given it? Possibly once to see what it is like, then I would sell it. It is, to my eye, UGLY and I would have no desire to keep it.

And what on earth does the price tag have to do with anything?

Possibly because your close minded and stuck on steel/Ti frames..

[TMB]

Possibly because your close minded and stuck on steel/Ti frames..

You are starting to remind me of a long lost poster who was banned some time ago. I wish I could remember the name. But I will ...

[FixedNotBroken]

You are starting to remind me of a long lost poster who was banned some time ago. I wish I could remember the name. But I will ...

I'm talking about how this thread started about EPS builds then drifted quickly to bashing on a bike. My last comment was assanine but I'm not sure what you mean by a long lost poster..this is my only account that I've had.

[benitosan1972]

http://lolpics.se/pics/10294.gifhttp://lolpics.se/pics/10768.gifhttp://lolpics.se/pics/10767.gif

[TMB]

......

[oldpotatoe]

wet disc brakes, means hydraulic disc brakes. Considering there are no production levers with internal reservoirs yet let alone for Campagnolo EPS, I can see how that price tag makes sense.

Somebody up there fabricated the levers with reservoirs, admittedly it's one of a kind but the gent that was so amazed by it, well it was amazing that he was so amazed by it. I would hope it would work well but, the 'why' kept coming to my mind...guess it's for 'selling'.

[oldpotatoe]

Oh really? Define ugly..or maybe the price tag is ugly for you personally? If you were given that bike you would ride it.

Wall, you answered germanyChris but I'll chime in...I wouldn't...if given a lot of things bicycle, I wouldn't automatically 'ride it', keep it. That one would be off to the 'bay.

[oldpotatoe]

I imagine they changed the chainrings, and didn't want any confusion with their other cranks that shift fine with mechanical derailleurs. In the future they will probably all be like the EPS crank, but in the meantime they don't want people thinking the regular SR compact crank is somehow a downgrade.

Interesting thing is the 2012 SR and Record cranks are all 'EPS' compatible, and the cups have a sleeve for internal routing so the wires don't rub on the spindle. BUT like Di2, you really CAN use any 11s crank with EPS..like Athena, or Chorus and yes, it'll work, just like Di2 works with say, Quark cranks(installed a few of those). So if ya got a 11s group now and want to UPGRADE to EPS, get the ders, levers, brain, battery and bobsyerverywealthyuncle.

[oldpotatoe]

I saw a set up yesterday that would do this... It wasn't Panigale priced, but He has more in it than I have in this...

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/tech/pezduc1.jpg

Gawd but I lust after a RED Ducati..just drips sex appeal. I see a Ducati, say 'look a Ducati', and wife just says, 'No'. An airplane(at least part ownership) would be cheaper....and safer.

[jr59]

Gawd but I lust after a RED Ducati..just drips sex appeal. I see a Ducati, say 'look a Ducati', and wife just says, 'No'. An airplane(at least part ownership) would be cheaper....and safer.

Like most times, wife is probably right, BUT the Duc would be fun.
Even though, the monster is my least fav big Duc.

[Kontact]

Interesting thing is the 2012 SR and Record cranks are all 'EPS' compatible, and the cups have a sleeve for internal routing so the wires don't rub on the spindle. BUT like Di2, you really CAN use any 11s crank with EPS..like Athena, or Chorus and yes, it'll work, just like Di2 works with say, Quark cranks(installed a few of those). So if ya got a 11s group now and want to UPGRADE to EPS, get the ders, levers, brain, battery and bobsyerverywealthyuncle.

So do you think Campy is lying about the compact cranks, or just what they say won't matter?

[firerescuefin]

So do you think Campy is lying about the compact cranks, or just what they say won't matter?

Kontact....can you imagine what could/would be different with regard to the rings. Shifting force can't be that different....to necessitate different rings , and there would be no reason for the ramps to be different. As long as Q is the same and chainring diameter is the same....am I missing something here?

[oldpotatoe]

So do you think Campy is lying about the compact cranks, or just what they say won't matter?

Lying?? NO, but they also say an 11s crank won't work on 10s and that you 'need' SR cups with a SR crank and.............................

[Kontact]

Kontact....can you imagine what could/would be different with regard to the rings. Shifting force can't be that different....to necessitate different rings , and there would be no reason for the ramps to be different. As long as Q is the same and chainring diameter is the same....am I missing something here?

Shifting force is a lot different (check out my second to last post), and the derailleur speed is different. So I could see either as being an explanation.

Since you've dismissed both already, why do you think Campy says only the compact needs a specific crank? I would buy "marketing" if it were both, but since compact chainrings are both more flexilble AND present more shifting problems than 130/135 BCD rings, I don't see what other theory makes any sense.

Alternately, it could actually be a different crank rather than rings, but it would still likely be because of shifting force. You can even here how hard the derailleur is forcing the chain onto the big ring.

[firerescuefin]

Since you've dismissed both already, why do you think Campy says only the compact needs a specific crank?

Dismissed?....I haven't dismissed anything. I gave you my thoughts and asked you for your opinion. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I am not an engineer or industry insider. I am very interested to hear about the theoretical engineering present in the rings and/or cranks as well as the feedback from riders that try both.

[Kontact]

Dismissed?....I haven't dismissed anything. I gave you my thoughts and asked you for your opinion. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I am not an engineer or industry insider. I am very interested to hear about the theoretical engineering present in the rings and/or cranks as well as the feedback from riders that try both.

It is just that I already said that the shifting force is much greater, but you said that it couldn't be. Is that not a dismissal?

[firerescuefin]

Hey brother,

It's a 5 page thread. You are very quick to take on a negative/dismissive/sarcastic tone with folks IMO...and this is coming from someone that likes most of your posts... A little grace goes a long ways.

[jr59]

hey brother,

it's a 5 page thread. You are very quick to take on a negative/dismissive/sarcastic tone with folks imo...and this is coming from someone that likes most of your posts... A little grace goes a long ways.

+1

[jpw]

...compact chainrings are both more flexilble AND present more shifting problems than 130/135 BCD rings

Are they? Why? I've never noticed flex or had issue with my compact 7900.

[Kontact]

Hey brother,

It's a 5 page thread. You are very quick to take on a negative/dismissive/sarcastic tone with folks IMO...and this is coming from someone that likes most of your posts... A little grace goes a long ways.

So, thinking your dismissal of the advertised and demonstrable increased force in electric FDs was in fact dismissive on my part? At the risk of sounding sacrastic again: I apologize for sounding dismissive when it appeared you dismissed what I had said.

Did you dismiss what I previously said, or did I misunderstand when you said it couldn't be the shifting force?


JPW,
All else being equal, The teeth of a 50 tooth compact ring is located 45mm from the center of the chainring bolt, while a 53 is only 40mm from a 135bcd crank's chainring bolt. All else being equal, the increased span is going to move more than the shorter distance. Whether that movement is demonstrable or not depends on the crank. I just offered that up as a theory why Campy is making an issue of just their compact crank when paired with the (theoretically) more forceful shifting of EPS.

I don't know the real answer - I just have my own observations, measurements and information provided by Campy and Shimano to go on.

[firerescuefin]

[QUOTE=Kontact;1124297]So, thinking your dismissal of the advertised and demonstrable increased force in electric FDs was in fact dismissive on my part? At the risk of sounding sacrastic again: I apologize for sounding dismissive when it appeared you dismissed what I had said.

Did you dismiss what I previously said, or did I misunderstand when you said it couldn't be the shifting force? [QUOTE]

It's a 5 page thread. I didn't scour each of your posts.

Since manufacturers already try to design the stiffest cranks and chainrings possible, it's hard for me to imagine that their new design will be that much more effective, although I can imagine that stress profiles would be different and perhaps could be engineered into a chainring or crank.

It would not be the first time companies created compatibilty issues in their marketing literature that did not exist in real life. If it were me...and I already was running a compact. I would try out my existing crank first.

[jpw]

So, thinking your dismissal of the advertised and demonstrable increased force in electric FDs was in fact dismissive on my part? At the risk of sounding sacrastic again: I apologize for sounding dismissive when it appeared you dismissed what I had said.

Did you dismiss what I previously said, or did I misunderstand when you said it couldn't be the shifting force?


JPW,
All else being equal, The teeth of a 50 tooth compact ring is located 45mm from the center of the chainring bolt, while a 53 is only 40mm from a 135bcd crank's chainring bolt. All else being equal, the increased span is going to move more than the shorter distance. Whether that movement is demonstrable or not depends on the crank. I just offered that up as a theory why Campy is making an issue of just their compact crank when paired with the (theoretically) more forceful shifting of EPS.

I don't know the real answer - I just have my own observations, measurements and information provided by Campy and Shimano to go on.

I see what you mean. Thanks for that.

[oldpotatoe]

So, thinking your dismissal of the advertised and demonstrable increased force in electric FDs was in fact dismissive on my part? At the risk of sounding sacrastic again: I apologize for sounding dismissive when it appeared you dismissed what I had said.

Did you dismiss what I previously said, or did I misunderstand when you said it couldn't be the shifting force?


JPW,
All else being equal, The teeth of a 50 tooth compact ring is located 45mm from the center of the chainring bolt, while a 53 is only 40mm from a 135bcd crank's chainring bolt. All else being equal, the increased span is going to move more than the shorter distance. Whether that movement is demonstrable or not depends on the crank. I just offered that up as a theory why Campy is making an issue of just their compact crank when paired with the (theoretically) more forceful shifting of EPS.

I don't know the real answer - I just have my own observations, measurements and information provided by Campy and Shimano to go on.

Ya know shimano says ya gotta have a Di2 crank...and I'm sure you have installed non Di2 cranks on Di2......Don't 'need' a EPS crank..any 11s crank will work.

[FlashUNC]

As one mechanic I know likes to say, if you don't tell it, it won't know the difference.

[Kontact]

[QUOTE=Kontact;1124297]So, thinking your dismissal of the advertised and demonstrable increased force in electric FDs was in fact dismissive on my part? At the risk of sounding sacrastic again: I apologize for sounding dismissive when it appeared you dismissed what I had said.

Did you dismiss what I previously said, or did I misunderstand when you said it couldn't be the shifting force? [QUOTE]

It's a 5 page thread. I didn't scour each of your posts.

Since manufacturers already try to design the stiffest cranks and chainrings possible, it's hard for me to imagine that their new design will be that much more effective, although I can imagine that stress profiles would be different and perhaps could be engineered into a chainring or crank.

It would not be the first time companies created compatibilty issues in their marketing literature that did not exist in real life. If it were me...and I already was running a compact. I would try out my existing crank first.

Under User CP, display options, you can make each page 40 posts long.

And let me be clear, I wasn't peeved that you dismissed shifting force. I was just asking you what you thought it was since you had dismissed shifting force, and dismissing a topic is not in itself insulting to anyone. The fact that I had mentioned it specifically 2 posts earlier didn't really matter.

I posted this thread because I thought people on this forum would be interested in EPS. That does not seem to be the case, and I kind of regret starting a thread that has led to a bunch of negative comments and to needing to be told that I am sarcastic and dismissive for attempting to ask and answer questions about a peripheral topic.

If anyone has any questions or comments on EPS, I'd be happy to answer them. But otherwise I will stay out of this thread.

[firerescuefin]

[QUOTE=firerescuefin;1124301][QUOTE=Kontact;1124297]So, thinking your dismissal of the advertised and demonstrable increased force in electric FDs was in fact dismissive on my part? At the risk of sounding sacrastic again: I apologize for sounding dismissive when it appeared you dismissed what I had said.

Did you dismiss what I previously said, or did I misunderstand when you said it couldn't be the shifting force?

Under User CP, display options, you can make each page 40 posts long.

And let me be clear, I wasn't peeved that you dismissed shifting force. I was just asking you what you thought it was since you had dismissed shifting force, and dismissing a topic is not in itself insulting to anyone. The fact that I had mentioned it specifically 2 posts earlier didn't really matter.

I posted this thread because I thought people on this forum would be interested in EPS. That does not seem to be the case, and I kind of regret starting a thread that has led to a bunch of negative comments and to needing to be told that I am sarcastic and dismissive for attempting to ask and answer questions about a peripheral topic.

If anyone has any questions or comments on EPS, I'd be happy to answer them. But otherwise I will stay out of this thread.

HTFU;)

[cfox]

Ya know shimano says ya gotta have a Di2 crank...and I'm sure you have installed non Di2 cranks on Di2......Don't 'need' a EPS crank..any 11s crank will work.
Supposedly Shimano designed the 7900 hollow chainrings, which are super stiff (standard and compact), with Di2 on the horizon. I agree with Monsieur Potatoe, though, anything will work fine with the electric stuff.

[oldpotatoe]

Supposedly Shimano designed the 7900 hollow chainrings, which are super stiff (standard and compact), with Di2 on the horizon. I agree with Monsieur Potatoe, though, anything will work fine with the electric stuff.

They did, samo for 6700...but if you are hammering up a steep hill in the small ring, out of the saddle, MASHING and hit the FD button, Di2 and EPS will shift, 'maybe' a non EPS/Di2 crank won't but in all other scenarios...yep, it'll work just fine.

I think people forget that DT shifters, pull aft, HARD and the force is probably akin to EPS/Di2, and those shifted, without stiff CR, w/o pins and ramps....blah, blah.

[Charles M]

Lots of cranks will work, but chainrings can be noticably lesser...

Shimano's forged rings and rings from Praxis and a couple others work well, but the Di under full load on a couple of more flexible plates can be less than ideal. Most things will work, but there's a diff...

[Kontact]

Supposedly Shimano designed the 7900 hollow chainrings, which are super stiff (standard and compact), with Di2 on the horizon. I agree with Monsieur Potatoe, though, anything will work fine with the electric stuff.

Considering that almost no one in the US has used EPS , why do you think anything will work fine?

I understand the argument, but no one here is speaking from experience. I don't think even friction DT shifters compare because cables are somewhat elastic. When you shift EPS you can hear how hard the chain is being pushed against and over the large ring. I would not want to get my finger caught in there, even though I wouldn't worry about a DT powered derailleur.

The important thing here is that the "problem" is unknown - it might be a shifting performance thing, or it might be damage to the chainring, chainring bolts, spider arms, etc. Considering the cost of high end cranks and EPS parts, I just don't think it is a smart play to assume that it will be okay to mix and match until someone figures out what the difference actually is.

[Ti Designs]

All of this talk about front shifting under load brings out my usual comment.


Learn how to ride...

[Kontact]

All of this talk about front shifting under load brings out my usual comment.


Learn how to ride...

What does that have to do with how derailleurs work?

[Ti Designs]

What does that have to do with how derailleurs work?

It's more about how riders work. The ability to look up the road and decide long before you get there which chainring you're going to want to be in means that shifting under heavy load is a non-issue.

[Kontact]

It's more about how riders work. The ability to look up the road and decide long before you get there which chainring you're going to want to be in means that shifting under heavy load is a non-issue.

That's chain load. I've been talking about derailleur force.

[ultraman6970]

+1 with Ti Designs.

To measure the force of the mechanical FD is easy and Im sure they mimic it in eps, the electronic fd cage has to be the same design (shape) they have been using since forever but maybe some tiny improvements but doubt is far out from the mechanical 11 record version. The setting up of the FD from what I saw in the videos is the same than with the mechanical version but w/o the screws, so you see how deep and how far out has to move and ready to go. They need to keep consistency in their tolerances of the darn group wont work in all the bikes as their idea. Can you imagine that the seat tube is off 4 mms from what they though so the tab is off a few mms too and then it doesnt work with that brand or model?? would be a disaster as it happened with look and dura ace a few years ago, many people complained because they were not able to shift to the big chainrings in a specific model (cant remember right now), even look had to issue a reshaped FD tab to get the issue fixed. Look fault or shimano's fault? Campagnolo cant get off their tolerances with this new group or many bikes wont be able to use it, thats why I really dont think the new crankset they claim is 100% true, as the usual "this wont work with such and such" that is the usual thing campagnolo has been saying for at least 20 years and many here know is not true. Even shimano back in the day was saying the same stuff . Now a days shimano has been wiser... not all the stuff is interchangeable right out of the box and thats why many moved to campy as well at some point in time.

Would love to ride the eps at some point but with the riding i do im better with a 5 or 4 speed bike than with a 11 speed one. The good thing is that electronic no matter what brand will give the guys that cant figure it out how to shift correctly a harder way to dont shift correctly.

[Charles M]

It's more about how riders work. The ability to look up the road and decide long before you get there which chainring you're going to want to be in means that shifting under heavy load is a non-issue.


Dismissive to the fact that Di works very well and consistently over the long term shifting under load.

Not all competitive situations happen with the advanced notice of looking up the road. Di has the ability to respond quickly and consistently under less than ideal conditions.

It's not an all important thing, but it's ignorant to blow off the abilities of new equipment and the fact that they're allowing a different than typical use.

I would guess eps would want to be on par with Di, but it wouldnt shock me if campy isn't as good. Fwiw, the new SRAM red front shifting works pretty well under load too... Might not roll like that long term like Di does. Time will tell.

[Ti Designs]

Di has the ability to respond quickly and consistently under less than ideal conditions.

So you're saying that more complex is more reliable?


As to the need to respond quickly, I'd say that's the rider's job. No shifting system is going to give the same ability to respond as some quality time on the track.

[krhea]

Not all competitive situations happen with the advanced notice of looking up the road. Di has the ability to respond quickly and consistently under less than ideal conditions.



99% of us on this forum could care less how stuff reacts "in competitive situations"...We want the stuff to work when we're "out for a ride", riding a century/gran fondo or our weekly club ride. We're not bearing down on a crit corner at 30+mph or "making our move" on a 9% climb to break away from the pack and worrying about how our equipment will work. To Ti Designs point, he's right, it is more about the rider then the equipment when it comes to problems/complaints about how a bike shifts under load. If your even somewhat aware/alert when you're riding, know your climbing abilities and how to use your gears properly then shifting under load should not "be a problem" because you'd rarely if ever allow yourself to be in a position where you'd have to shift under load.

Both EPS and DI2 are cool innovations but not "the be all end all" when it comes to knowing how to properly ride your bike and deal with proper gear selection when climbing.

[TMB]

99% of us on this forum could care less how stuff reacts "in competitive situations"...We want the stuff to work when we're "out for a ride", riding a century/gran fondo or our weekly club ride. We're not bearing down on a crit corner at 30+mph or "making our move" on a 9% climb to break away from the pack and worrying about how our equipment will work. To Ti Designs point, he's right, it is more about the rider then the equipment when it comes to problems/complaints about how a bike shifts under load. If your even somewhat aware/alert when you're riding, know your climbing abilities and how to use your gears properly then shifting under load should not "be a problem" because you'd rarely if ever allow yourself to be in a position where you'd have to shift under load.

Both EPS and DI2 are cool innovations but not "the be all end all" when it comes to knowing how to properly ride your bike and deal with proper gear selection when climbing.


^ this!

[cat6]

99% of us on this forum could care less how stuff reacts "in competitive situations"...We want the stuff to work when we're "out for a ride", riding a century/gran fondo or our weekly club ride. We're not bearing down on a crit corner at 30+mph or "making our move" on a 9% climb to break away from the pack and worrying about how our equipment will work. To Ti Designs point, he's right, it is more about the rider then the equipment when it comes to problems/complaints about how a bike shifts under load. If your even somewhat aware/alert when you're riding, know your climbing abilities and how to use your gears properly then shifting under load should not "be a problem" because you'd rarely if ever allow yourself to be in a position where you'd have to shift under load.

Both EPS and DI2 are cool innovations but not "the be all end all" when it comes to knowing how to properly ride your bike and deal with proper gear selection when climbing.

Word.

[oldpotatoe]

All of this talk about front shifting under load brings out my usual comment.


Learn how to ride...

hear, hear

Old guy onna ride once said, "you should be in the gear you want at the top of the hill...at the bottom of the hill". Cycling, shifting finesse has gone the way of the manual transmission on cars.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Anticipate need to shift, apply less force (think "clutch") to pedals, shift. Chain moves one gear, ride continues. Yay. How do I survive riding measley Campy 10 Speed, with :::gasp:::, cables? :rolleyes:

[reggiebaseball]

uh oh,
threads has gone 'grouchy old technophobe' on us.

Start a new thread to talk about your love of down tube shifters if you must, this is an EPS thread, nobody needs to know how much cooler you are for learning to shift in 1962 and how everyone since is a pampered idiot.

[BillG]

hear, hear

Old guy onna ride once said, "you should be in the gear you want at the top of the hill...at the bottom of the hill". Cycling, shifting finesse has gone the way of the manual transmission on cars.

We don't always ride where we know the terrain. I could show you a few places in Vermont where I promise however skilled of a rider you are, you will need to make a funny shift.

[jpw]

Dismissive to the fact that Di works very well and consistently over the long term shifting under load.

Not all competitive situations happen with the advanced notice of looking up the road. Di has the ability to respond quickly and consistently under less than ideal conditions.

It's not an all important thing, but it's ignorant to blow off the abilities of new equipment and the fact that they're allowing a different than typical use.

I would guess eps would want to be on par with Di, but it wouldnt shock me if campy isn't as good. Fwiw, the new SRAM red front shifting works pretty well under load too... Might not roll like that long term like Di does. Time will tell.

It's another version of the arms race. They have it, you must have it too.

[jpw]

99% of us on this forum could care less how stuff reacts "in competitive situations"...We want the stuff to work when we're "out for a ride", riding a century/gran fondo or our weekly club ride. We're not bearing down on a crit corner at 30+mph or "making our move" on a 9% climb to break away from the pack and worrying about how our equipment will work. To Ti Designs point, he's right, it is more about the rider then the equipment when it comes to problems/complaints about how a bike shifts under load. If your even somewhat aware/alert when you're riding, know your climbing abilities and how to use your gears properly then shifting under load should not "be a problem" because you'd rarely if ever allow yourself to be in a position where you'd have to shift under load.

Both EPS and DI2 are cool innovations but not "the be all end all" when it comes to knowing how to properly ride your bike and deal with proper gear selection when climbing.

Word.

[jmoore]

Damn you!

You are welcome.

Too small for me by a long way.

[Kontact]

I am always endlessly amused by the Amish cyclists on this board - most of whom got here because of Serotta, an incredibly expensive bike brand.

I'm not likely to get electric shifting on any bike, ever. But I still ride stuff that is much nicer than I need, and so do ALL of you. So krhea's comments would only be laudable if this was the Bikesdirect forum. Tiagra is fine groupo.


So far, no one has shown the least bit of actual interest in the actual components I bothered to post about - making this whole thread another pointless exercise in conspiracy theories, aesthetics, and hard man pronouncements. Is every thread just another opportunity to fight about nothing?

Where the hell is the simple love of bicycles?

[FlashUNC]

I am always endlessly amused by the Amish cyclists on this board - most of whom got here because of Serotta, an incredibly expensive bike brand.

I'm not likely to get electric shifting on any bike, ever. But I still ride stuff that is much nicer than I need, and so do ALL of you. So krhea's comments would only be laudable if this was the Bikesdirect forum. Tiagra is fine groupo.


So far, no one has shown the least bit of actual interest in the actual components I bothered to post about - making this whole thread another pointless exercise in conspiracy theories, aesthetics, and hard man pronouncements. Is every thread just another opportunity to fight about nothing?

Where the hell is the simple love of bicycles?


http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/U_18389d_1055958.jpg

[Germany_chris]

I am always endlessly amused by the Amish cyclists on this board - most of whom got here because of Serotta, an incredibly expensive bike brand.

I'm not likely to get electric shifting on any bike, ever. But I still ride stuff that is much nicer than I need, and so do ALL of you. So krhea's comments would only be laudable if this was the Bikesdirect forum. Tiagra is fine groupo.


So far, no one has shown the least bit of actual interest in the actual components I bothered to post about - making this whole thread another pointless exercise in conspiracy theories, aesthetics, and hard man pronouncements. Is every thread just another opportunity to fight about nothing?

Where the hell is the simple love of bicycles?

For me the love goes away when I need to plug it in, however rarely.

[BumbleBeeDave]

So far, no one has shown the least bit of actual interest in the actual components I bothered to post about - making this whole thread another pointless exercise in conspiracy theories, aesthetics, and hard man pronouncements. Is every thread just another opportunity to fight about nothing?

Where the hell is the simple love of bicycles?

. . .the rest of this is correct. Kontact made an interesting original post about new gruppo and it has all been dragged downhill. Discussion now has drifted so far that it's becoming personal. Let's move on.

BBD