Riding with a CCW

[firerescuefin]

Curious if any carry while riding. I have a CCW permit and carry on occasion....but have never on a ride.

[CaliFly]

Leave the gun, take the cannoli. :banana:

[William]

Curious if any carry while riding. I have a CCW permit and carry on occasion....but have never on a ride.

This is going to be a can of worms!!!:eek:

I may or may not, that's all I will say.:)





William

[Seramount]

no, can't think of any reason I'd need to.

[thwart]

Can you get one in carbon fiber?

[aaronv]

I usually roll with this, but need a different fork as the weight up front affects the handling in a negative way.

http://cdn.cyclingforums.com/a/a0/a01d913f_MtBike.jpeg

[MattTuck]

Only if you take it out to do the pistolero when you beat your friends to the top of a climb....

http://cdn2.media.cyclingnews.futurecdn.net/2010/04/30/2/contador_bettiniphoto_0047749_1_full_600_600.jpg

[William]

Can you get one in carbon fiber?



Take your pick...


http://images.bidorbuy.co.za/user_images/025/1463025_091104074634_Blackwidow2.jpg

http://www.blank-guns-depot.com/blank-firing-guns-store/files/productpics1/detailed_images/d_1333.jpg


William

[Nooch]

This is going to be a can of worms!!!:eek:

I may or may not, that's all I will say.:)





William

I'm pretty sure your weopons aren't concealed, william..

[biker72]

I never have but did ride with a guy that carried a Walther PPK 380.

[skijoring]

I usually roll with this, but need a different fork as the weight up front affects the handling in a negative way.

http://cdn.cyclingforums.com/a/a0/a01d913f_MtBike.jpeg

I think it just needs a low trail fork for front loading.

[Jaq]

A carry mad guns & don't conceal.

http://www.melindasfitnessblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/womens-biceps-workout.jpg

[fiamme red]

There was an old thread about this that apparently ran its course and was locked.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=491567

[Joachim]

Too many guys with guns and on meth down here. Know of one guy carrying one often while riding.

[firerescuefin]

I was reflecting on another thread when posting this. Had one occasion where I would have liked to have had it. Sucks that it would be a cosideration at any level, but get outside city limits and you come across some bold folks that are willing to use their vehicles as weapons...as well as get out of their cars/trucks with an intent to harm.

[Viper]

Curious if any carry while riding. I have a CCW permit and carry on occasion....but have never on a ride.

Uncle Ted, is that you? Aren't you busy today with the Secret Service? Or did they invite you down to Columbia for a "party"? :) I know the SS won't go to your "ranch" in Texas. :)

In all seriousness (and it's a serious topic) you know probably know best the Boy Scout motto, "Always Be Prepared". While a 9mm isn't going to be used as often as a Park Tool CT5 Chain Tool, when you need it, you need it.

It's a very sensitive topic on any given day, especially of late and in the Year of Election. I carry a small blade when I ride, same as when I walk or leave the home. When I was little, like age 8, a dog in our neighborhood attacked a kid and wouldn't let go. All I could find was a rock. You never know. I know a few dudes in Tennessee who are totally into cycling, they always carry and they would tell you why. Just make sure it's made in Italy/Campy etc. :beer:

[firerescuefin]

There was an old thread about this that apparently ran its course and was locked.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=491567

I'm not asking about carrying it my luggage...nor am I passing judgement on any one's opinion.

[SamIAm]

My wife carries a glock on occasion.

[William]

On carry...

I would rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.


The training variation on that....


I would rather know it and not need it, then need it and not know it.








William

[MattTuck]

I was reflecting on another thread when posting this. Had one occasion where I would have liked to have had it. Sucks that it would be a cosideration at any level, but get outside city limits and you come across some bold folks that are willing to use their vehicles as weapons...as well as get out of their cars/trucks with an intent to harm.

With the exception of a very few instances, I find drivers on country roads much more courteous and conscientious than their city counterparts. Maybe it is because they're not in as much of a rush, or there's just more room on the roads to move over.

Except for when I was a kid, and my buddy flipped the bird to a car of older teen-agers, I've never had someone get out of their car to fight.

I think a better solution than carrying a gun, would be riding with a buddy (so you're not alone) and also having a phone so you can call the police and report the driver/license plate in the event of hostile driving....

Another option I have considered was getting a jersey like this, http://www.bikingthings.com/pobije.html that might cause someone to think twice.

If you're dealing with religous folks, maybe a jersey that says "WWJD?" in big letters across the back.

There's probably a better solution than carrying a fire arm?

[Vinci]

I was reflecting on another thread when posting this. Had one occasion where I would have liked to have had it. Sucks that it would be a cosideration at any level, but get outside city limits and you come across some bold folks that are willing to use their vehicles as weapons...as well as get out of their cars/trucks with an intent to harm.
It's ridiculous that that happens at all, but it does. The way I look at it is the way I look at carrying a gun in any situation. When you have it, you have the option to use it if the situation ever required it. If you don't have it, then you do not have that option.

[witcombusa]

Stainless AMT Backup (380acp) when the occasion warrants it.....

[Viper]

firerescuefin, you'll get your pistol when you get to your ship. And if nobody will ride with you because they think you're a carrying-CCW-freak, give me a call. I'll ride with ya.

[Elefantino]

I do not own a firearm.

I, however, am a concealed weapon.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l84/gmmtwo/pinkweapon.jpg

[BCS]

A friend of mine rides with a .45 in his Camelback. In light of the recent discovery of two burning bodies on the local bike trail and our proximity to Sanford, carrying might not be such a crazy idea

[MattTuck]

Ammending my post. I am not against carrying a gun. I understand the need and not have, vs. have and not need argument. I am just providing suggestions that might mitigate the chances of needing a gun.

On a logistical note, I'm not sure that a jersey pocket would be strong enough, and what about the sweat causing corrosion, etc?

[William]

A key chain can sometimes be more than a key chain....just sayin'



William

[Nooch]

Ammending my post. I am not against carrying a gun. I understand the need and not have, vs. have and not need argument. I am just providing suggestions that might mitigate the chances of needing a gun.

On a logistical note, I'm not sure that a jersey pocket would be strong enough, and what about the sweat causing corrosion, etc?

Glock G26... 740 grams loaded, 9mm, 160mm length by 106mm height..

[sg8357]

On a logistical note, I'm not sure that a jersey pocket would be strong enough, and what about the sweat causing corrosion, etc?

.454 Casull in a Acorn Rando bag with a Milt Sparks summer special
sewed inside. Ace setup for anti-vehicle ops. A 1kw emp roller is good too,
but you need a class 3 license. Tourists have been known to mount a claymore
mine on a YAK trailer.

[skijoring]

.454 Casull in a Acorn Rando bag with a Milt Sparks summer special
sewed inside. Ace setup for anti-vehicle ops. A 1kw emp roller is good too,
but you need a class 3 license. Tourists have been known to mount a claymore
mine on a YAK trailer.

I like the cut of your jib, soldier. Are you a Mall Ninja?
http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

[fiamme red]

This thread reminds me of that classic, the "Spike Bike" series:

http://linux.stevens-tech.edu/kmh/spike.bike.all.txt

Here's the beginning:

With all the acrimony that's been passed around about bikes vs. cars, I thought it would be a good time to talk about a really interesting ride....

It was a Friday. Fridays are usually good days because you have a lot of teenagers drinking and driving, plus a lot of people who are in a bad mood and in a hurry to get home from work. The factories usually pay on Friday, so you get a fair number of beer-commercial types cruising around in heir 4X4s looking for some butt to kick while they're knocking back a few brews. A cyclist's paradise.

I stuck a full mag in my MAC-10 and put another one under the saddle. The gun fits into the water bottle cage pretty well, and it's fairly light. I stuffed a couple of grenades in my jersey pockets and slipped my Rambo-knife into its sheath on the front fork. Just for good measure, I grabbed a thermite grenade and dropped it into the remaining jersey pocket. This is a little more weight than I usually carry, but it was Friday night after all...

[nightfend]

I won't even carry a multi-tool because it is too heavy in my back pocket. Let alone carry a fire arm. Maybe if I was on a long mountain bike ride in the wilderness... but no way on the road.

[deanster]

I just wear a Jersey with a large American Flag when ever I am in Bubba country. Never had any problems. Carrying a gun is nuts. Not only do I have to worry about some A**H*** texting bearing down on me but, now I have to worry about some bike riding gun nut firing a gun up the road and the bullet reaching me a mile away...leave the guns at home.

I am just waiting for the a tragedy at one of the college campuses that are now allowing CCW permits when someone pulls a gun and 20 others pull out and start shooting. Most people are only casually trained with pistols. I remember when I was in the service how much time I had to spend on the firing range to become reasonably competant with my M1911.
Carrying one means one is apt to become pissed and use it. FTNRA

[Liv2RideHard]

A friend of mine rides with a .45 in his Camelback. In light of the recent discovery of two burning bodies on the local bike trail and our proximity to Sanford, carrying might not be such a crazy idea

I need to start riding with y'all. I am near UCF and just recently was assaulted by a lunatic at the intersection of N. Tanner and McCullough. He ran me into the traffic furniture on Old Lockwood purposely and with intent to harm. He then caught the light at N. Tanner and McCullough and there I was. He proceeded to exit his vehicle. I was still clipped in and had not gestured or said a word. As I clipped my right foot out he pushed me to the ground. I didn't hit the pavement and as I regained my balance he jumped back in his truck before I could...it was going to be on at that point. He put his hands on my first. All I could do was kick the crapola out of his truck as the a$$wipe sped away. Let's just say Speedplay cleats can do some serious damage. He will probably have to have his entire drivers side rear quarter panel replaced.

This sort of stuff happening out on the road makes me want to carry. I have friends who do carry and have been in situations like mine and when they are confronted, albeit it rarely, the motorist knows what time it is. I just fear the enraged lunatic behind the 2 ton vehicle may also be carrying. Then what? A shoot out? I have thought about a blade but in today's world I wouldn't want to carry a knife to a gun fight. Mace has also crossed my mind. The canister is small and light enough, similar to a CO2 and would seemingly work against irrational humans and the occasional dog. Just a thought.

[Elefantino]

<snip> now I have to worry about some bike riding gun nut firing a gun up the road and the bullet reaching me a mile away<snip>
And you thought evading DOGS was good sprint training.

[Nooch]

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/images/products/kimber/2011/20349_i_1.jpg

Competive Cyclist haS this pepper spray majiggy (http://www.competitivecyclist.com/product-accessories/2011-kimber-pepperblaster-ii-10520.2323.1.html)...

I've thought about this..

or just carry your multi-tool in a sock and start swinging it wildly...

[jds108]

A key chain can sometimes be more than a key chain....just sayin'



William

What the heck is that?

[MattTuck]

Is there a pattern to these assaults?

I tend to look back at nearly every car that approaches me from behind. I find that this puts the driver on notice that I know she/he is there. (it helps that I ride with a helmet mirror, and though it is dorky, I find it helps)

If I rode where there is more traffic, that might make it hard to eye ball every car.

Is it when you're taking too much of the lane? Or is it just random, when the driver has a bad day and you're who he takes it out on? Does it happen when the driver feels slighted? or is it totally unpredictable?

I find it really unfortunate that this happens to people riding their bike. I also hate the idea of having to engage in hand to hand combat while wearing speed play cleats with my carbon soled shoes.

[MattTuck]

What the heck is that?

Yeah, I was going to ask... it looks like something that you might find in an ... ummmm... adult store.

[thwart]

I just wear a Jersey with a large American Flag when ever I am in Bubba country. Never had any problems. Carrying a gun is nuts. Not only do I have to worry about some A**H*** texting bearing down on me but, now I have to worry about some bike riding gun nut firing a gun up the road and the bullet reaching me a mile away...leave the guns at home.

I am just waiting for the a tragedy at one of the college campuses that are now allowing CCW permits when someone pulls a gun and 20 others pull out and start shooting. Most people are only casually trained with pistols. I remember when I was in the service how much time I had to spend on the firing range to become reasonably competant with my M1911.
Carrying one means one is apt to become pissed and use it. FTNRA

Finally, some words of reason here.

Especially the last 5 letters.

And, yeah, odds are good this will be locked by suppertime... :rolleyes:

[deanster]

And you thought evading DOGS was good sprint training.

Actually I used that technique quite often when I was racing...amazing what an adrenaline shot it is...had one route with a pair of Dobermans...

[GuyGadois]

Not only do I not carry a weapon but I wouldn't ride ride anyone who does. I have never been in a situation that my keen intellegence and girlish figure couldn't get me out of.

GG

[PQJ]

I'm thinking of leaving America for good. Seriously. Not just because of this, but man am I getting disillusioned with this place. Yup, I might just be headed back to the third world. Out of choice. Crazy, I know, and yet true.

[aaronv]

There are some truly bad-ass parts of the world, but in my book the USA is not one of them.
I know there are rough neighborhoods, the Bubbas and the wild bears, but I just don't feel afraid most of the time.
If you are a person of science, you know from the statistics that laying off the steak and booze will increase your chances of surviving this life and something you can take charge of versus some unlikely theoretical pistol duel with a driver.

Honestly though, only humor will allow us to survive this thread intact.

http://cdn.cyclingforums.com/e/e3/e3ad7d3a_sniper_bike.jpeg

[old_fat_and_slow]

I was reflecting on another thread when posting this. Had one occasion where I would have liked to have had it. Sucks that it would be a cosideration at any level, but get outside city limits and you come across some bold folks that are willing to use their vehicles as weapons...as well as get out of their cars/trucks with an intent to harm.

Are you effing kidding me? Colorado has probably more cyclists than any other state except for Cali. I would think most of the citizenry would be pretty accustomed to bike riders sharing the road by now. You tellin' me you still have to put up with gun totin' rednecks in pickups that want to run you off the road or pull over and kick some ass. Wow, I've been to Denver many times on business, and I never got that vibe at all. I know Colorado has a bunch of card carrying NRA gun lovers, but I didn't realize the hatred for cyclists was that bad. Scary.

[Viper]

I'm thinking of leaving America for good. Seriously. Not just because of this, but man am I getting disillusioned with this place. Yup, I might just be headed back to the third world. Out of choice. Crazy, I know, and yet true.

They will kill you with rocks there. Or some crazy bug disease from a tiny bite. Did you see what happened to the poor lady:

http://www.ksat.com/news/Nurse-charged-after-mother-killed-baby-kidnapped/-/478452/11125924/-/lkxunp/-/index.html

http://www.wwltv.com/around-the-web/Houston-mother-shot-and-killed-3-day-old-baby-kidnapped-in-parking-lot-147826565.html

F*cking WACKED. A nurse, the woman in the middle photo above, shoots a mom in a car, seven times, takes the mom's newborn baby...the mom is somehow able to move her arm out of the car and the psycho murdered crashes her car into the dying mom's car.

A President and First Lady could stand there every night and say to a reporter, "My son or daughter would've looked just like that."

Violence is sick.
Mental illness is the problem.
You can travel to anywhere on the planet and unless you avoid humanity all together...you won't escape mentally ill people.

"MY BABY" were her dying words, seven shots put into her...and the murderer then crashes her car into the dying mother...SICK. :(


"Detectives said McClain had recently had a miscarriage, but she told her fiancé that she had given birth to his child.

"She needed to justify to her soon-to-be (husband), they were going to get married in May," Zenor said. "She told him she was pregnant and had given birth to a child, by him."

Keegan is white. McClain is black. Zenor said McClain's fiancé is not white.

"She represented this as her child," Zenor said.

"We believe that some sort of a verbal altercation occurred between the mother of the child and a black female that was in the car parked next to her," Norris said. "The mother of the child tries to get into the vehicle because the black female suspect has taken the child out of the pickup truck and put the child in the Lexus."

Witnesses said the woman repeatedly shot Kala Golden Schuchardt, took the infant and sped away, hitting the dying mother as she screamed "my baby" and tried to reach into the Lexus, Norris said. Witnesses reported hearing as many as seven gunshots.

[old_fat_and_slow]

I do not own a firearm.

I, however, am a concealed weapon.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l84/gmmtwo/pinkweapon.jpg

Nice kit. More men should be comfortable wearing pink.

[FlashUNC]

Maybe I can get Kirk or another frame builder to modify a BOB trailer to mount a .50 cal on a turret.

But to answer the question: Have known folks who carry on rides. I don't myself.

[old_fat_and_slow]

I'm thinking of leaving America for good. Seriously. Not just because of this, but man am I getting disillusioned with this place. Yup, I might just be headed back to the third world. Out of choice. Crazy, I know, and yet true.

I'm pretty sure the real estate in Afganistan is pretty cheap now days.

Oh yeah, I also heard that gas prices are really low in Venezuela.

Um, if you're technically inclined, I heard North Korea is hiring.

[HenryA]

I just wear a Jersey with a large American Flag when ever I am in Bubba country. Never had any problems. Carrying a gun is nuts. Not only do I have to worry about some A**H*** texting bearing down on me but, now I have to worry about some bike riding gun nut firing a gun up the road and the bullet reaching me a mile away...leave the guns at home.

I am just waiting for the a tragedy at one of the college campuses that are now allowing CCW permits when someone pulls a gun and 20 others pull out and start shooting. Most people are only casually trained with pistols. I remember when I was in the service how much time I had to spend on the firing range to become reasonably competant with my M1911.
Carrying one means one is apt to become pissed and use it. FTNRA (emphasis added above)

Projecting your own personal issues on others is not nice. Perhaps there would be benefit in anger mangement classes.

[Fixed]

My wife carries a glock on occasion.

is that the one with the lawn mower ?
cheers
did i read somewhere that most fatal gunshots are suicides
cheers

[Louis]

I think we need to broaden this discussion and go full-libertarian:

What about portable bongs?

During long rides some folks like enjoy a hit or two at the turn-around point. It might help alleviate leg cramps.

I'm sure it's more prevalent among the MTB crowd, but some roadies here might be interested in knowing.

[firerescuefin]

Thanks for the replies. For the most part even those that would be adamantly opposed were civil in their discourse. I am not looking for agreement, just seeking opinions from thost that like to do the same things I do.

Old F&S. The drivers in Co are the best I have experienced from a courtesy standpoint. Actually, it's the cyclist that need to gain some manners and levity IMO. For those that know Denver, I live in Parker and have had 2 very bad experiences in the Elisabeth and Franktown areas (Rural, pretty, 2 lane roads, with little traffic). Both times were with folks driving diesel duallies. The worst was a guy that drove up at speed on the soft shoulder behind me at speed, laid on his airhorn,swerved around me, cut in front of me back on the soft shoulder and hit the brakes, then proceeded to yell and threaten me. I genuinely expected him to grab something and get out of the vehicle. Apparently you can take Bubba out of Dixie, but you can't take Dixie out of Bubba...and FWIW I lived in the south...I just don't ride on those particular roads anymore.

[William]

Yeah, I was going to ask... it looks like something that you might find in an ... ummmm... adult store.

Huh? How would you even know that???:confused:


:p;):D

Honestly, I get asked what it is by women quite often.

It goes from being an I-don't-know-what, to a flexibile weapon like a sap. Lead filled ball. It's called a Romatron and it was given to me by a LEO friend and student. Innocuous and very effective...hurts when hit with even through hockey gloves in training...ask Beungood.:D






William

[weiwentg]

I remember when I was in the service how much time I had to spend on the firing range to become reasonably competant with my M1911.

I just want to second that. In the Singapore Army (was born there), it took several months before they trusted us not to blow our own foot off, and several more before your buddies would trust you not to blow their feet off or worse. Having everyone have a concealed weapon does not necessarily make society safer.

Aside from the possibility of crossfire (something that infantry are strenuously trained to avoid), making guns more available means that a greater number of them will get into the wrong hands. More will be stolen from houses. More will leak from the supply chain.

For cars, I generally think we should work through the police and political advocacy. If we get hit, people already tend to blame us - if some cyclist fires, things will also be problematic.

[UKBROOKLYN]

Put a bell on your bike and ring it...

Try it ..


Tone down your aggression and it will town down everyone else's

[gdw]

I carried for several years but never when riding or running and wouldn't recommend it. You'll never be able to use a firearm successfully against a moving vehicle if the driver decides to take you out and pulling a pistol on someone in a physical altercation ramps things up to a level you want to avoid at all costs..... as George Zimmerman discovered.

[SPOKE]

Take your pick...


http://images.bidorbuy.co.za/user_images/025/1463025_091104074634_Blackwidow2.jpg

http://www.blank-guns-depot.com/blank-firing-guns-store/files/productpics1/detailed_images/d_1333.jpg


William

one of each would be a good start....:banana:

[bart998]

[QUOTE=MattTuck;1122961]

Another option I have considered was getting a jersey like this, http://www.bikingthings.com/pobije.html that might cause someone to think twice.

Sorry, but this is a really bad idea. I work law enforcement and more often than not my uniform makes me a target. I have official cycling kit that I NEVER wear unless I'm in a group with a lot of others wearing the same, AND I'm armed.... I carry a blade and OC spray on most rides and never tell anyone what I have or where I work. I don't usually carry a gun riding because I have spent $$$$ to make my bike lighter so why carry a heavy, steel pistol and a pack for it? Usually, I know where/what neighborhoods I will be riding through and take the same risk as everyone else. Over the years I've had two incidents... far out in the country some rubes threw a block of wood at me from the back of a P/U truck... someone else sprayed me with cleaner from a window washer nozzle turned to the side for that purpose. Both drove on.

[palincss]

Over the years I've had two incidents... far out in the country some rubes threw a block of wood at me from the back of a P/U truck... someone else sprayed me with cleaner from a window washer nozzle turned to the side for that purpose. Both drove on.

And of course firearms would have been useless as a defense against these, or against deliberate mirror strikes, thrown bottles, or intentional clouds of black diesel smoke (enumerating the other automobile incidents I've seen over the years). Useless also against people cursing you out, too, unless you want to try your luck with murder.

And, around here, quite complicated by the fact that it's not at all unusual for a ride to cross state lines, and there's no reciprocity.

But there is indeed one -- not unusual -- situation where firearms could in fact be useful for cyclists, and I'm surprised nobody's mentioned it: defense against dogs.

[fuzzalow]

To CCW during a ride seems drastic to me.

If that is the choice undertaken then one need be prepared for the potential in an escalation that does not defuse until there is an ultimate termination. Firearms in combination with an untrained person in any confrontation is a very volatile mix.

Bad idea. But what do I know, I live in NY Metro - here everything's illegal.

[christian]

Sandy is not going to like this, but...

Trying to swiftly and permanently disable an attacking dog with a handgun would be extremely difficult. For dogs, a chemical repellent, like bear spray, or a stout stick, is better defense.

This reminds me of back country hiking and camping on Svalbard, where we were advised to carry a .308 to protect against aggressive polar bears, and sternly admonished that polar bears were strictly protected and shooting one at a range greater than 30 meters was likely to get one fined and possibly jailed for illegal hunting.

Doing the math on how fast a polar bear might run 30 meters, the damage a single .308 might do to a polar bear, and so forth, I spent the remainder of the week furtively smearing my companions jackets with grilled mackerel and pickled herring.

[Viper]

Put a bell on your bike and ring it...

Try it ..


Tone down your aggression and it will town down everyone else's

Won't ever make fun of you or mock you for saying the above, thinking it or applying it. It's the greater thought which you are pointing out, a higher aspiration and while it may be the stuff of fairytales, it's a good dream and sometimes comes true. The most dis-arming thing humans can do to one another is offer a smile. What I wanted to say was I liked your post.

[Peter P.]

While I'm not a gun owner, I just finished reading "Glock: The Rise of America's Gun". Excellent book for those interested in the history of the company. That's why I'm interested in this thread. I was also a military policeman in the Air Force, so I'm relatively familiar with weapons.

My concerns with carrying a concealed weapon would be sweat causing corrosion on the gun, as well as any gun lubricants staining your jersey. If the gun were kept in some sort of holster, it wouldn't be as readily accessible when needed, reducing its practicality.

Then there's maintenance: Get caught in rain and you have to wipe the gun down as well as the bike. I wonder how much Glock's plastic construction would reduce maintenance? Next, I don't know whether Glock has changed their safety design, but it sounds like their trigger system isn't the safest. Not keeping a round chambered would be a better solution for an active person like a cyclist.

I also wonder how much the weight of the gun will cause a jersey to sag. Lycra doesn't hide a gun silhouette well, either.

If you can surmount those issues and you feel safer carrying a gun then go ahead.

[thwart]

Won't ever make fun of you or mock you for saying the above, thinking it or applying it. It's the greater thought which you are pointing out, a higher aspiration and while it may be the stuff of fairytales, it's a good dream and sometimes comes true. The most dis-arming thing humans can do to one another is offer a smile. What I wanted to say was I liked your post.

Another voice of reason. Once again, I'm proven to be dead wrong (pun intended)... just finished supper and this thread is not locked down.

[dd74]

Ride with cops. Problem solved.

[rustychisel]

it would spice up those TDF time trials...


but seriously, my reality is not your reality and I am thankful for that. Weapons are anathema to me and their usage or condoning thereof suggest much greater problems than the scope of this thread should address.

[Ken Robb]

I googled the key chain device and read the "how to use it". Lots of techniques for strikes and a few for blocks. I was skeptical about the advice to put your thumbs in the loops at either end and hold your hands apart to catch an assailants kick with the cable that is suspended between your thumbs. Sounds like a great way to break your thumbs but what do I know?

OTOH one of the better ways to carry a concealed handgun looked just like a regular fanny pack but the pouch was really secured by Velvcro at either end allowing access to a pouch behind the bag. I know a young woman who regularly carried a .38 stainless snubby this way on her evening jogs. Of course she wore the pack in front of her torso as many fanny pack wearers do.

[William]

I googled the key chain device and read the "how to use it". Lots of techniques for strikes and a few for blocks. I was skeptical about the advice to put your thumbs in the loops at either end and hold your hands apart to catch an assailants kick with the cable that is suspended between your thumbs. Sounds like a great way to break your thumbs but what do I know?



It's a great impact device, but I agree with you, I wouldn't use it in that particular manner either. I've never read their "how to", I use it from the methods of our combatives system.

Avoidance and De escalation techniques first,
and if they persist and you can't get out of Dodge, only take it as far as needed to nullify the threat. If you choose to carry a weapon, train in how to deploy and use it often.

Some say this saying is corny but it holds water with me....

"Learn the ways to preserve rather than destroy;
Avoid rather than check;
Check rather than hurt;
Hurt rather than maim;
Maim rather then kill;
Kill rather than be killed;
All life is precious nor can it be replaced."







William

[Fivethumbs]

Like previously said, a jersey with an American flag or even better a jersey that says "My other bike is a Harley" or some such thing will probably keep you from getting hassled.

[witcombusa]

Ride with cops. Problem solved.

Half of them would be in prison if they didn't join the blue fraternity...

regardless, the police are not responsible for your personal safety.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . of a characterization.

Let's please keep in mind guns and CCW are a sensitive subject for many and keep the rhetoric from getting off the deep end.

Thanks.

BBD

[verticaldoug]

The Swiss National Jersey with a big red cross seems to work better than the flag.

I think ccw on a bike has a high probability of becoming a Plaxico Burress moment of a self inflicted gunshot.

If the area you are riding in requires a gun,

a. either imaginary, you are slightly paranoid and are probably the dangerous one
b. real, the perps will have bigger and more guns.

in either case, you are probably creating a more dangerous situation ....
Besides, the most dangerous weapon on the road weighs 2 tons and has an inattentive driver behind the wheel. No gun will help against that.

[witcombusa]

. . . of a characterization.

BBD

I guess you don't know too many cops then.....


If they are "sensitive" they can avert their tender eyes....

[slowgoing]

In jurisdictions where you need good cause to obtain a CCW permit, like California, you might be risking your permit (or much worse if you actually use it) by carrying while riding if you are not engaging in the activities that you listed as justifying good cause. Unless your application listed riding in rednecky areas as good cause. Would be interesting to see if that would fly. Of course, weighing 140 pounds and wearing lycra could get you killed almost anywhere, although the image of a 140 pound lycra wearing gun toter silently chanting "give me a reason" is a bit amusing.

[Fixed]

Cowboys and guns =
Wild west shoot out
Weapons for self defense are all around my faithful peanut wrench was always in my pocket when I used to ride
Cheers :rolleyes:

[Blue Jays]

Better to have and not need...than to need and not have.
Given that you already have the CCW credentials, it certainly makes sense.
CCW is similar to insurance in that we hope not to use it, yet have it.

[ClutchCargo]

Better to have and not need...than to need and not have.
Given that you already have the CCW credentials, it certainly makes sense.
CCW is similar to insurance in that we hope not to use it, yet have it.

F#ck, yeah! (except, now that I think of it, I never heard of anyone's kid picking up an insurance policy and shooting themselves dead with it)

[William]

In jurisdictions where you need good cause to obtain a CCW permit, like California, you might be risking your permit (or much worse if you actually use it) by carrying while riding if you are not engaging in the activities that you listed as justifying good cause. Unless your application listed riding in rednecky areas as good cause. Would be interesting to see if that would fly. Of course, weighing 140 pounds and wearing lycra could get you killed almost anywhere, although the image of a 140 pound lycra wearing gun toter silently chanting "give me a reason" is a bit amusing.

That's just a stereotype. Just because someone chooses to train with and carry a weapon for self protection does not mean they are secretly hoping they get to take a life. It boils down to what Blue Jays touched on...

Better to have and not need...than to need and not have.
Given that you already have the CCW credentials, it certainly makes sense.
CCW is similar to insurance in that we hope not to use it, yet have it.






William

[Blue Jays]

ClutchCargo, the bicycle rider with a CCW would have to unknowingly drop or lose their sidearm for that unfortunate situation to occur.
Statistics indicate the vast, vast, vast majority of people possessing CCW credentials have a remarkably excellent safety record.

:)

[firerescuefin]

That's just a stereotype. Just because someone chooses to train with and carry a weapon for self protection does not mean they are secretly hoping they get to take a life. It boils down to what Blue Jays touched on...




William




I'm glad someone finally wrote this....as well as the statement about the safety record of the ccw community at large. No wannabe dirty Harry here.

[William]

F#ck, yeah! (except, now that I think of it, I never heard of anyone's kid picking up an insurance policy and shooting themselves dead with it)


Owning and using any sort of weapon is a responsibility. One should constantly train in proper handling, storage, and use of such tools. Just like driving a car, riding a bike, using power tools, climbing, hiking, swimming, texting, cleaning gutters on a ladder, etc.... One should always be responsible and careful to minimize the chance of accidents, injury, and death. When a person isn't careful or responsible is when things happen, doesn't matter what it is.






William

[slowgoing]

I'd still be interested in finding out if recreational bike riding or commuting through certain neighborhoods would justify a CCW permit in good cause jurisdictions in the first place.

And seeing statistics showing how many bike riders actually pulled out their weapons and what the result was.

Seriously, has anyone here actually pulled out a handgun while riding (whether you have a CCW permit or not)? Or know of anyone who has? If so, what prompted it and what happened?

[firerescuefin]

I'd still be interested in finding out if recreational bike riding or commuting through certain neighborhoods would justify a CCW permit in good cause jurisdictions in the first place.

And seeing statistics showing how many bike riders actually pulled out their weapons and what the result was. Have you ever pulled your handgun out while riding? If so, what prompted it and what happened?

Justification (carrying on a bike) is not an issue in Colorado...and yes usability/accessibility is certainly a concern of mine and one of the reasons I haven't carried in the past.

[slowgoing]

Better to have and not need...than to need and not have.
Given that you already have the CCW credentials, it certainly makes sense.
CCW is similar to insurance in that we hope not to use it, yet have it.

I don't understand the CCW credentials statement. In some jurisdictions, anyone can get a CCW permit if they are 18, not a past felon, ect. No good cause required. Hardly a "credential."

Plus in good cause jurisdictions, if you get a CCW permit for one reason, like needing to carry large sums of money or jewels if you're a jeweler, would your CCW even entitle you to carry while recreational cycling where no such good cause exists (at least as you filled out your CCW application)?

[William]

Justification (carrying on a bike) is not an issue in Colorado...and yes usability/accessibility is certainly a concern of mine and one of the reasons I haven't carried in the past.

From what I can see of the CO law, one with a CCW permit can carry anywhere except Public elementary, middle, junior high or high schools, establishments that sell liquor, and many federal buildings. other than that you're good.






William

[witcombusa]

There has been some "testing" of the system here in CT. Our permits technically allow open or concelled carry. Many of our fine law enforcement folks aren't familiar with the law and have in the past made unlawfull arrests and caused their departments and towns to be sued because of this.

It's been rather interesting. A memo was floating around regarding how they might better deal with this situation in the future so as to prevent these expensive lawsuits in the future. We have also had organised open carry gatherings to "test" their new schooling on these practices.

So....open carry while riding your bike anyone??? ;)

[Vinci]

From what I can see of the CO law, one with a CCW permit can carry anywhere except Public elementary, middle, junior high or high schools, establishments that sell liquor, and many federal buildings. other than that you're good.
The laws are similar in Florida and Ohio.

[Lovetoclimb]

I was reflecting on another thread when posting this. Had one occasion where I would have liked to have had it. Sucks that it would be a cosideration at any level, but get outside city limits and you come across some bold folks that are willing to use their vehicles as weapons...as well as get out of their cars/trucks with an intent to harm.

This is very interesting to me. I am working hard to move to the front range or up the mountains as far as Golden. I have done a fair bit of riding in the surrounding country and never got the impression it was at all dangerous. Then again I lived in Alabama for a year, worst ever in my experiences. Now I ride in very rural Kentucky 5-6 days a week and regularly encounter dangerous people and situations. Not a weapon carrying person myself, prefer having multiple other cyclists with me. I guess there are assholes and ignorant people everywhere. The "wealthy" neighborhoods of Cinci have notoriously bad texting drivers. When I creep by I like to knock on windows, point, and wag my finger!

[ClutchCargo]

Kind of interesting that in a community where it is nothing for folks to drop several hundred dollars and more to (A) follow their weight weenie siren or (B) gain more comfort on the bike, some are apparently seriously considering voluntarily subjecting themselves to a lot of discomfort while adding 2 pounds (give or take) to the bike. Go figure.

[William]

Kind of interesting that in a community where it is nothing for folks to drop several hundred dollars and more to (A) follow their weight weenie siren or (B) gain more comfort on the bike, some are apparently seriously considering voluntarily subjecting themselves to a lot of discomfort while adding 2 pounds (give or take) to the bike. Go figure.


What's so hard about that???

http://www.milanofixed.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/glock_1.jpg

;):p:)





William

[54ny77]

Bad bikes bad bikes, whatcha gonna do...

[William]

Bad bikes bad bikes, whatcha gonna do...

...whatcha gonna do when they come for you....





;):)
William

[Viper]

Words are like weapons
They lose sometimes
Cher sang it
Gary Cooper High Noon
Time for hangin'
Try to be a Marshall
Over your own life
Worry bout' yourself
Your own shoes and skin
Next thing you know
Cops calling next of kin
All you wanted was some Ice Tea
Arizona
Now it's too late
My mother's in pain, sorrow, moaning
All you wanted was some sugar
Skittles
Now it's too late
Oh Danny Boy fiddles
If I could find a way
I'd take back those words that hurt you
And you'd stay
I don't know why I did the things I did
I don't know why I said the things I said
Pride's like a knife it can cut deep inside
Words are like weapons they wound sometimes
I didn't really mean to hurt you
I didn't wanna see you go
I know I made you cry
But baby
If I could turn back time
Cause you can't take back
Metallic insults
When bullets fly
And they don't stop
Jackie O's tears
Were the same as my mom's
Sorrow's the same
9/11 plane
Senseless violence
It's a loser's game
Let it Be
Let Me be
Yoko Ono's tears
Were the same as mine
Mental illness was the problem
It's all in the mind
Mom's wearing a veil
Like the one at her wedding
Except this one's black
Looking at it now
This all started with talkin' smack
Words are like weapons
They lose sometimes
Mom's veil is black
Don't pull the trigger
What you can't take back
Outside it's America
Outside it's America
Bullet the blue sky
America

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEszTzdUMcY

www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6nzA5gtBUY


Peace

[54ny77]

Watch out, you might get a "whilst" thrown at you by, you know, "them."

http://perpenduum.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/raphanyt.jpg

...whatcha gonna do when they come for you....

;):)
William

[Jaq]

Well, the thread seems to be running its course, which mightn't be a bad thing....

But bikes and soldiers have actually had quite an interesting - and often successful - partnership over the years. There's a nice Wikipedia page about Bicycle Infantry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_infantry). When I was a kid, I remember someone commenting that, during their invasion of Singapore, the Japanese bicycle troops actually took the tires off their rims. The resulting cacaphony sounded, from a distance, just like the light tanks they used, and the defenders hastily retreated.

[Vinci]

Kind of interesting that in a community where it is nothing for folks to drop several hundred dollars and more to (A) follow their weight weenie siren or (B) gain more comfort on the bike, some are apparently seriously considering voluntarily subjecting themselves to a lot of discomfort while adding 2 pounds (give or take) to the bike. Go figure.
I know what you mean. I've gone on rides with people that carry tools and tubes with them. What's worse is when people take two water bottles. They have to know that that stuff adds up! :)

[Earl Gray]

I'm pro gun and pro CCW but I do not think I would ride anywhere that I though I needed to carry a gun with me.

I assume that in the vast majority of cases where I would need one, I would not have the time to get it out.

If I lived in DC, NYC, Philly etc. I might feel differently.

If a gun tooting redneck decides to F with you, you sure as hell better not miss. The Rednecks I'm friends with know how to use what they carry and would shoot to kill anyone that pulled a gun on them.

[witcombusa]

What's so hard about that???

http://www.milanofixed.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/glock_1.jpg

;):p:)





William

Now we can talk about saddle to pistol drop.....

[54ny77]

Seriouly, if the nat'l press picked up on a story about a ccw-toting cyclist who shot and killed someone, even if totally legit and in self defense, it'd be even more of a nightmare out there on the roads. We're targets enough as is, let alone a now-even-more-visible bunch of freaks in lycra perceived as packin' heat.

[fourflys]

let's see... I'm getting ready to move to Kodiak Alaska, you know home of the Kodiak Brown Bear... and plan to ride a LOT of trails while there... it never once occurred to me to carry a weapon other than a bear bell and bear spray... since most people aren't LE professionals that are actually trained in using their weapon under stressful situations, I'd bet most people wouldn't be able to hit the broad side of a barn if the ****e hit the fan... regardless of how good you are at the range...

kind of reminds me of how all the new people to Kodiak last time I lived there always ran out to the exchange and bought a new Glock 9mm... a 9mm is just going to piss a bear off...

[572cv]

A long time ago, I read john mcphees book about the Swiss Army. Over there, everyone is in the army, virtually, and everyone is armed. Everyone is trained on how to use those arms. Everyone has the weaponry in the house. Everyone knows that well armed and trained people live everywhere. It has a remarkable effect on crime.
Not totally germain to this thread, just another society's apparently effective approach.

[BumbleBeeDave]

.. . . make a bike holster? Then it might be worth it . . . :rolleyes:

BBD

[1happygirl]

Wait a minute there are bad people who mean me harm?!

As a non masculine person with varying times to ride, I have considered it. If I ever get back to riding (injury now though), out on country roads, I probably will even though I don't carry at all.

Roads are too isolated, too many things going on that my parents warned /warm me about but until now I never paid attention to.
Not to be all paranoid, but I remember like a tru tv episode I think, where a college gal out riding her bike and the guy circled round, bumped her back tire and she went down in someone's yard. That's when he dragged her into his pickup leaving her bike there (you mean he didn't want the bike?). Anyway, not everyone has someone to ride with all the time and the number of people meaning you harm is crazy now. People in the city are stealing people and cars. They can have my car. My problem in thinking is how to carry it without sweating on it. Pretty soon though I'm carrying a hundred lbs of stuff on my light bike for 50 miles.
If I was your sister/mom/gf/bff/so/partner/wife/ aunt/niece---oh you get the idea, wouldn't you want me to carry and protect myself?
When I left to go to college the folks bought me one and insisted I keep it close--hmmmm, now where did I put that....

[Louis]

Everyone knows that well armed and trained people live everywhere. It has a remarkable effect on crime.

Yeah, I'm sure that's why crime is so low in Switzerland. I doubt the demographics have anything to do with it.

[crankles]

If a gun tooting redneck decides to F with you, you sure as hell better not miss. The Rednecks I'm friends with know how to use what they carry and would shoot to kill anyone that pulled a gun on them.

agreed. a long time ago, I too had a ccw in detroit...not an easy thing to obtain (review board...tests...etc) and it was VERY narrowly defined. In Indiana, you could mail in a request! . But the realitly of it was, If they had a gun and I had a gun, there was going to be shooting. I realized I really wasn't willing to shoot someone over a bag of money.

[aaronv]

Whatever you decide to do, always wear a ballistic cardigan. Only through humor will we survive this thread.

http://dybip.typepad.com/blog/images/2007/03/21/downey20307460x360.jpg

[verticaldoug]

Yeah, I'm sure that's why crime is so low in Switzerland. I doubt the demographics have anything to do with it.

U.S. is the world leader in percent of population in prison.
U.S. 789/100,000
Suisse 79
Japan 63

Russia 598
South Africa 324

The Japanese have no guns and crime does not seem to be a problem over there.

[witcombusa]

A long time ago, I read john mcphees book about the Swiss Army. Over there, everyone is in the army, virtually, and everyone is armed. Everyone is trained on how to use those arms. Everyone has the weaponry in the house. Everyone knows that well armed and trained people live everywhere. It has a remarkable effect on crime.
Not totally germain to this thread, just another society's apparently effective approach.

Hey, that's kinda like the republic of Texas....

well except they're not in the army, or trained, or.......

[William]

Be prepared. And they even mention Mark's book on improvised weapons (one of our specialties).

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XCkTSf0swcQ/SLF8KRnTe0I/AAAAAAAAC0M/aB6MCq1mKS8/s320/BikeGunning81333.jpg

"Bicycle Attacks
These kind of stories hit home to a bike commuter:

May 16, 2008, The Seattle Times:
The recent mugging of a man who was riding his bicycle through the Interstate 90 Mount Baker Tunnel has prompted police and the Cascade Bicycle Club to urge bicyclists to always be aware of their surroundings and travel with others.

Bob Cornwell was pedalling home from work through the Mount Baker Tunnel last week when he was attacked by three teenagers who knocked him off his bike, slammed him against a wall and stole his wallet, money and bike bag. The Seattle University professor said he was lucky to escape with only a few bumps and bruises. Initially, he didn't want to report the incident to police. "I didn't want to make a big thing of it," he said.

But a colleague and fellow member of the Cascade Bicycle Club encouraged him to call police,....."

http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2008/08/bicycle-attacks.html









William

[witcombusa]

The Japanese have no guns and crime does not seem to be a problem over there.

well...

[William]

U.S. is the world leader in percent of population in prison.
U.S. 789/100,000
Suisse 79
Japan 63

Russia 598
South Africa 324

The Japanese have no guns and crime does not seem to be a problem over there.

Which would indicate that if you're a good guy/gal, you might want to think about being prepared just in case.





William

[skijoring]

Gecko45 writes:

hello friends,

Last year I made the decision to trust my life on the street to Second Chance body armor. I got the level IIa because it stops the most rounds. plus I got the Trauma Plate for the front.

What scares me is that, although I can fit an extra trauma plate in the front, I cannot fit a second one in back. As of late I have taken to duct-taping a second trauma plate to the area of my back where the heart and vital organs are located. Then I put my vest on.

Here is the questions. The ducttape solution, although tactically sound, is hot and painful to remove. I would like to go to the single-plate solution in back. What I am worried about is repeated hits to that area with .308 ammunition. I have a high-risk security job and I fear that I would be the target for repeated long-distance shots to my back.

Are any of you aware of a thicker plate that could stop, say, .338 Lapua or something like that? Is there a better way to do the second plate?

BTW, I am, of course, usually carrying a pair of ceramic plates in my briefcase so that I can shield my head. My SO (we work as a team when necessary) has a similar accessory containing a breakdown NEF single-shot 300 WinMag with an 18" bbl. The plan is that I shield us with my body and “catch the rounds” while she assembles the NEF. I lay down covering fire with my 23 (Bar-Sto .357 Sig barrel) and she makes the long shots. I will then throw smoke grenades to obscure the area while continuing to lay covering fire. The problem, of course, is when I have to turn my back to run, and then the problem crops up.

Thanks!

One poster responded, ‘If Plan A is to take multiple .338 shots to the back, you really need to come up with a Plan B.” Needless to say, alot of folks started seriously wondering where this guy worked”


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

[gdw]

The guy asked a legitimate question about carrying a concealed weapon and now were discussing crime stats in Switzerland....:crap:

[Louis]

Paranoid people are going to live scared whether the perceived threats to them are real or not. If violent crime or property crime were sky-rocketing, then stuff like this might make sense, but last I checked, that's not the case. Therefore, you have to ask yourself why this CCW and "Stand your ground" sort of thing is growing throughout parts of the country.

[William]

Paranoid people are going to live scared whether the perceived threats to them are real or not. If violent crime or property crime were sky-rocketing, then stuff like this might make sense, but last I checked, that's not the case. Therefore, you have to ask yourself why this CCW and "Stand your ground" sort of thing is growing throughout parts of the country.

Again, another stereotype. Just because a person decides to take responsibility for their own personal protection does not mean that they are "paranoid" or out to use their new skills or weapons to harm others. Sure, chances are low in most places of an issue, but they are not unheard of and being able to take care of yourself against a real threat is not a crime. Heck you're chances of being struck by lighting are low but everyone runs for cover when one comes through. The bottom line is that LE is there for a reason, but if the crap hits the fan, they won't likely get to you until it all over. There is absolutely nothing wrong with responsible personal protection.






William

[verticaldoug]

Which would indicate that if you're a good guy/gal, you might want to think about being prepared just in case.





William

I have an expectation in the U.S. of being safe. If we all carry guns, we actually increase the danger for society as a whole. Eventually we end up in a society where we have the necessity to carry guns. That will be an ugly place. I rather people focus on creating a civil society and eliminate guns altogether.

When I was a young boy, it was a right of passage to pass the gun safety test so I could get a permit and go hunting. I fail to see how guns made us any safer.

I find this whole over reaction to imagined/perceived threats as sad commentary on our hostility to each other.

[William]

I find this whole over reaction to imagined/perceived threats as sad commentary on our hostility to each other.


Humans on a whole can be very compassionate toward one another. Unfortunately, they can also be very violent. No one here on this forum wants to intentionally hurt anyone else. If nothing ever happens, chances are they never will.






William

[verticaldoug]

Humans on a whole can be very compassionate toward one another. Unfortunately, they can also be very violent. No one here on this forum wants to intentionally hurt anyone else. If nothing ever happens, chances are they never will.






William

we can continue this conversation on b2b.

[Louis]

Again, another stereotype. Just because a person decides to take responsibility for their own personal protection does not mean that they are "paranoid" or out to use their new skills or weapons to harm others.

I'm just looking for an explanation why the demand for these self-defense items is increasing as crime is decreasing (and has been for quite a while).

[bcm119]

Riding a bike with a gun is ridiculous on so many levels.

When you go out for a ride and share the road with cars, you are taking a risk. It's a fairly significant risk-- cyclists are injured or killed pretty often. I doubt very much that any of these accidents can be avoided by whipping out a hand gun.

If the reason for carrying is your own safety, which I assume it must be, then there are far more effective ways to reduce the risk of personal injury on a bike. They include things like helmet mirrors, reflective tape, avoiding busy roads and bad intersections, lights, checking your bars/stem/tires etc. Carrying a gun would be around #649 on a list of things to do/have to increase safety. Not to mention the significant time and $ it requires to maintain adequate hand gun skills to render carrying a weapon more of a defensive asset than a liability.

There is also a long list of objects that fit the "better to have and not need than need and not have" bill. How about first aid supplies? You're far more likely to crash your bike and get hurt than get into a roadside shoot out with a redneck or crack head. Do you all carry a full first aid kit as well? How about a Kevlar back protector? Cyclists get hit with bottles and garbage from rednecks pretty often... better to have one than not.

It's obviously not a rational decision. I'll go out on a limb and say it's a false sense of security that appeals to the gun-toting cyclist.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I have an expectation in the U.S. of being safe.

I do not have this expectation. That doesn't mean I'm looking over my shoulder all the time or feel the need to carry a weapon. But thirty years in journalism taught me there are many, many more places than you might think where bad things can happen to good people with little warning. The best personal policy is to always be aware of your surroundings. That counts any time you're in public or on your bike. The best way to deal with trouble is to reaonably anticipate it and avoid getting into it . . .

BBD

[William]

I do not have this expectation. That doesn't mean I'm looking over my shoulder all the time or feel the need to carry a weapon. But thirty years in journalism taught me there are many, many more places than you might think where bad things can happen to good people with little warning. The best personal policy is to always be aware of your surroundings. That counts any time you're in public or on your bike. The best way to deal with trouble is to reaonably anticipate it and avoid getting into it . . .

BBD



Well spoken Dave.



William

[witcombusa]

I have an expectation in the U.S. of being safe. If we all carry guns, we actually increase the danger for society as a whole. Eventually we end up in a society where we have the necessity to carry guns. That will be an ugly place. I rather people focus on creating a civil society and eliminate guns altogether.

When I was a young boy, it was a right of passage to pass the gun safety test so I could get a permit and go hunting. I fail to see how guns made us any safer.

I find this whole over reaction to imagined/perceived threats as sad commentary on our hostility to each other.

I find the expectation of " the U.S. being safe" remarkably hopefull.
Way to much so that I will bet MY life on it.

Again, it is not the responsability of the police to protect you personally. If that is what you are counting on....

[witcombusa]

Riding a bike with a gun is ridiculous on so many levels.

When you go out for a ride and share the road with cars, you are taking a risk. It's a fairly significant risk-- cyclists are injured or killed pretty often. I doubt very much that any of these accidents can be avoided by whipping out a hand gun.

If the reason for carrying is your own safety, which I assume it must be, then there are far more effective ways to reduce the risk of personal injury on a bike. They include things like helmet mirrors, reflective tape, avoiding busy roads and bad intersections, lights, checking your bars/stem/tires etc. Carrying a gun would be around #649 on a list of things to do/have to increase safety. Not to mention the significant time and $ it requires to maintain adequate hand gun skills to render carrying a weapon more of a defensive asset than a liability.

There is also a long list of objects that fit the "better to have and not need than need and not have" bill. How about first aid supplies? You're far more likely to crash your bike and get hurt than get into a roadside shoot out with a redneck or crack head. Do you all carry a full first aid kit as well? How about a Kevlar back protector? Cyclists get hit with bottles and garbage from rednecks pretty often... better to have one than not.

It's obviously not a rational decision. I'll go out on a limb and say it's a false sense of security that appeals to the gun-toting cyclist.

Do you know any cyclist that have been run off the road and then attacked by people from that car? I do. You think you can fend them off with your front wheel while running in cleated road shoes? You can't.

[William]

Riding a bike with a gun is ridiculous on so many levels.

When you go out for a ride and share the road with cars, you are taking a risk. It's a fairly significant risk-- cyclists are injured or killed pretty often. I doubt very much that any of these accidents can be avoided by whipping out a hand gun.

If the reason for carrying is your own safety, which I assume it must be, then there are far more effective ways to reduce the risk of personal injury on a bike. They include things like helmet mirrors, reflective tape, avoiding busy roads and bad intersections, lights, checking your bars/stem/tires etc. Carrying a gun would be around #649 on a list of things to do/have to increase safety. Not to mention the significant time and $ it requires to maintain adequate hand gun skills to render carrying a weapon more of a defensive asset than a liability.

There is also a long list of objects that fit the "better to have and not need than need and not have" bill. How about first aid supplies? You're far more likely to crash your bike and get hurt than get into a roadside shoot out with a redneck or crack head. Do you all carry a full first aid kit as well? How about a Kevlar back protector? Cyclists get hit with bottles and garbage from rednecks pretty often... better to have one than not.

It's obviously not a rational decision. I'll go out on a limb and say it's a false sense of security that appeals to the gun-toting cyclist.

I don't carry a gun, I never have. But I am trained in close quarters open hand, improvised, edged, and impact weapons combat. But that doesn't mean I go out of my way looking for trouble...I don't. I don't understand people who choose not to getting their panties all in bunch over those of us who do????







William

[fourflys]

The guy asked a legitimate question about carrying a concealed weapon and now were discussing crime stats in Switzerland....:crap:

this is now at 9 pages... what did you expect?

riding with a weapon is akin to driving a jacked-up $100k truck to the ride start for a road ride (seen it here in SoCal)... just doesn't make sense for a sport that is supposedly environmentally conscious and uses cycling to relax/stay healthy...

[verticaldoug]

I find the expectation of " the U.S. being safe" remarkably hopefull.
Way to much so that I will bet MY life on it.

Again, it is not the responsability of the police to protect you personally. If that is what you are counting on....

It's our obligation to make society safe for all. In your decision to 'protect' yourself, you escalate the race to bigger violence with the criminal. There is always a bigger gun. It is better to work to remove guns altogether.

In a solitary situation, if you choose to fire on someone, fine. However, in the unlikely event that other innocents bystanders were in the area but not under immediate threat, would you risk using your weapon on the assailant to defend yourself exposing others to stray fire?

[fourflys]

I do not have this expectation. That doesn't mean I'm looking over my shoulder all the time or feel the need to carry a weapon. But thirty years in journalism taught me there are many, many more places than you might think where bad things can happen to good people with little warning. The best personal policy is to always be aware of your surroundings. That counts any time you're in public or on your bike. The best way to deal with trouble is to reaonably anticipate it and avoid getting into it . . .

BBD

you know what? when it's your time, it's your time...

[bcm119]

I don't carry a gun, I never have. But I am trained in close quarters open hand, improvised, edged, and impact weapons combat. But that doesn't mean I go out of my way looking for trouble...I don't. I don't understand people who choose not to getting their panties all in bunch over those of us who do????







William

My panties are ironed and wrinkle free. Actually more than anything I'm just amused at the thought of a lycra-clad roadie riding around with a pistol stuffed in his jersey. I've never heard of such a thing personally. Just saying from a statistical stand point it makes no sense if personal safety is the goal. If someone wants to ride with a gun, fine by me, but I think its ridiculous.

[bcm119]

Do you know any cyclist that have been run off the road and then attacked by people from that car? I do. You think you can fend them off with your front wheel while running in cleated road shoes? You can't.

No I don't, and I've been cycling a long time. Maybe things are different in New England, but I doubt it. I have friends in VT and MA and I'm sure they'd be amused to read this. Maybe you live in NH?

[verticaldoug]

No I don't, and I've been cycling a long time. Maybe things are different in New England, but I doubt it. I have friends in VT and MA and I'm sure they'd be amused to read this. Maybe you live in NH?

I'm guessing Maine. You know all that scary crap Stephen King writes about, that's not fiction.

[slowgoing]

Do you know any cyclist that have been run off the road and then attacked by people from that car? I do. You think you can fend them off with your front wheel while running in cleated road shoes? You can't.

So what are you going to do in such a situation, pull out a gun and hope that they stop? They might, before they get back in the car, wait for you to get back on you bike on the road and then run you over with their weapon, the car. You'll really be giving them a reason to make things much worse. So your only other real option once you pull out the gun is to shoot them dead.

Do you see this playing out any differently? What would you do?

[SamIAm]

To me the bike has little to do with it. If you are the kind of person who carries off the bike, it makes sense to carry on the bike and vice versa.

[aaronv]

No I don't, and I've been cycling a long time. Maybe things are different in New England, but I doubt it. I have friends in VT and MA and I'm sure they'd be amused to read this. Maybe you live in NH?


Current MA resident. What causes me mortal dread is the high speed and reckless freeway driving. If anything is going to do me in while I live here it is that. Enough time on the road and you get the close buzzes, the yelling (I hate that) and once in a great while something chucked at you. Fear for my personal safety from someone getting out of their car to attack me is way down on my list. Now dogs on the other hand...........

[sg8357]

I doubt very much that any of these accidents can be avoided by whipping out a hand gun.


I think you being too literal minded about why CCWs are popular.
You ever watch the old Peanuts cartoons on TV ?
Remember Linus with his blue blanket ?, when he got
older he became a CCW holder.

It is a big scary world out there, sometimes you just need
your old blue blanket.

[Louis]

To me the bike has little to do with it. If you are the kind of person who carries off the bike, it makes sense to carry on the bike and vice versa.

Agreed.

[witcombusa]

No I don't, and I've been cycling a long time. Maybe things are different in New England, but I doubt it. I have friends in VT and MA and I'm sure they'd be amused to read this. Maybe you live in NH?

It happened in PA, outside Harrisburg.

How 'bout a poll. How many cyclists have personally been purposely run off the road? The old bumper nude, passenger door opened or other.

Only twice for me with malice. another time of two "just kidding around"....

You might be surprised how often this does happen.

We need a poll

[firerescuefin]

you know what? when it's your time, it's your time...

Chris...I am sure that in the event that you needed to protect yourself and/or your family...and I walked up to you an offered you a means to do so...your take would be a little different.....I don't think I would hear "No thanks Geoff...it's just our time."

I have neither a death wish, nor want to hurt anyone and fwiw I don't ever expect to use deadly force as a civilian.

For all of those that are talking about how much dangerous people with CCW's are making the US...stats please...The crickets and I will be waiting.....and the notion that those with CCWs are causing an escalation of force with criminals is about the most assenine thing I have ever heard. The culture we have chosen to embrace and tolerate is the reason we are. where we are....this is both good and bad IMO

I've lived throughout the world and traveled to just about every part of it. I've been to "chop chop" square in Saudi Arabia...whose violent crime is nearly non existent. Not a place I would want to live or raise a family. I see all of these people citing stats in distant lands. Those cultures and the freedoms that exist in many are so different than the US. If you think you would like it better there (and you genuinely may)...do what it takes to move there. If you just want to cite random statistics that support your argument but wouldn't give up the freedoms that this country allows, then keep your out of context opinions and stats to yourself.

I've come into contact with the victims of violent crime more than the majority on this board. You see statistics, I see faces. I've waited on numerous occasions for LE to safe the scene and then come in to treat victims of rape, domestic abuse, violent assault...sometimes to assess the victim and call for the coroner. Those things that are stats to you...let me tell you...someone wins that lottery. I am currently my organizations liason to the KAYAK....Colorado's fusion center...look it up. I see what's going on every day throughout the entire state. Don't want to carry...I have no issue with that, but don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining, then tell me how to live my life.

[Vinci]

It's our obligation to make society safe for all. In your decision to 'protect' yourself, you escalate the race to bigger violence with the criminal. There is always a bigger gun. It is better to work to remove guns altogether.
I think that's a wonderful scenario. Truly. If no one carried guns, they would be relegated to the realm of sport and recreation.

The truth of the matter is that the people who would wish you harm with a gun aren't going to stop using a gun to cause harm just because you decided not carry one yourself. There is no give and take in that scenario.

You can either choose to practice some due diligence by doing what you can to improve your personal safety, or you can do nothing and hope that someone else will protect you if the occasion arises.

Personally, I feel like if I (or one of my loved ones) was the victim of violence that I could have prevented, it's my fault for not doing so.

[Viper]

It's our obligation to make society safe for all. In your decision to 'protect' yourself, you escalate the race to bigger violence with the criminal. There is always a bigger gun. It is better to work to remove guns altogether.

In a solitary situation, if you choose to fire on someone, fine. However, in the unlikely event that other innocents bystanders were in the area but not under immediate threat, would you risk using your weapon on the assailant to defend yourself exposing others to stray fire?

The spoke with threads on both ends:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxYrfB3O7Vg&feature=related

PS: What did Piggy's spectacles (glasses) represent? And what is the meaning of the animal the kid's kill and eat and the boy's (Piggy) name?

:cool:

[slowgoing]

I will be eagerly awaiting reports on the upcoming lycra-clad-ccw/redneck confrontations.

My money will be on the redneck every time.

[BumbleBeeDave]

It is better to work to remove guns altogether.

But it's not going to happen.

Estimates of the number of guns of all types in this country vary from 200 to 350 million. It's a great dream but in realistic terms it's not going to happen. That ship sailed a long, long time ago.

BBD

[fourflys]

Chris...I am sure that in the event that you needed to protect yourself and/or your family...and I walked up to you an offered you a means to do so...your take would be a little different.....I don't think I would hear "No thanks Geoff...it's just our time."



I know what you mean Geoff... I guess my only take is the fact that even though I've been trained to use a handgun and have had to qualify at the range several times I guess I'm not that confident that if I did fire it would actually hit anything... much less a moving, human target that I bet would become VERY small in the heat of the moment... would having a CCW scare off some potential threats? maybe... but then again, as others have said, I wonder how many times it would actually escalate it to violence...

oh well, I'm going back to my National Champ's Jersey/Rapha thread... :D

[firerescuefin]

I know what you mean Geoff... I guess my only take is the fact that even though I've been trained to use a handgun and have had to qualify at the range several times I guess I'm not that confident that if I did fire it would actually hit anything... much less a moving, human target that I bet would become VERY small in the heat of the moment... would having a CCW scare off some potential threats? maybe... but then again, as others have said, I wonder how many times it would actually escalate it to violence...

oh well, I'm going back to my National Champ's Jersey/Rapha thread... :D

Chris, I've done the same math and until this point come to the same conclusion. I knew this thread would elicit some polarizing opinions, but as I said earlier, I wanted some input...thanks for giving yours (no sarcasm inserted)

[MadRocketSci]

It happened in PA, outside Harrisburg.

How 'bout a poll. How many cyclists have personally been purposely run off the road? The old bumper nude, passenger door opened or other.

Only twice for me with malice. another time of two "just kidding around"....

You might be surprised how often this does happen.

We need a poll

I'm not a gun person and pretty ignorant on the whole subject...however...

it seems you are still alive after these 2-4 incidents, and if you had pulled a gun out, and the drivers had guns, it seems to me a significant probability that one of you would be dead, unless you both managed to calm down in the heat of the moment. guns escalate the situation and a peaceful resolution then requires both parties be rational, according to the principles of mutually assured destruction.

if someone wants to run me off the road then i'm getting off the road asap, to fight it out another day in court, if lucky.

[firerescuefin]

I'm not a gun person and pretty ignorant on the whole subject...however...

it seems you are still alive after these 2-4 incidents, and if you had pulled a gun out, and the drivers had guns, it seems to me a significant probability that one of you would be dead, unless you both managed to calm down in the heat of the moment. guns escalate the situation and a peaceful resolution then requires both parties be rational, according to the principles of mutually assured destruction.

if someone wants to run me off the road then i'm getting off the road, to fight it out another day in court, if lucky.

Someone that is willing to use a car as a weapon and run you off the road, then stop to take it further is not a picture of rationality. Whether this rates for you possible pulling a weapon at some point is another question. Their lack of rationality can be used on both sides of the argument.

[soulspinner]

I do not own a firearm.

I, however, am a concealed weapon.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l84/gmmtwo/pinkweapon.jpg

Its the shoes money, its the shoes...........:eek:

[MadRocketSci]

Someone that is willing to use a car as a weapon and run you off the road, then stop to take it further is not a picture of rationality. Whether this rates for you possible pulling a weapon at some point is another question.

practically speaking, how often does it happen that someone tries to actually kill you with their vehicle? Most "run off the road" incidents that I've heard of are done with the intent of pissing you off, sending the message that you're a f*g, whatever. With that in mind, if you pull out the gun you've just given yourself another shot at dying or killing someone who had no intention of doing the same to you.

i personally would prefer people act to diffuse the situation, rather than bring it up to the next level, even if it means being the one sh*t upon.

[firerescuefin]

practically speaking, how often does it happen that someone tries to actually kill you with their vehicle? Most "run off the road" incidents that I've heard of are done with the intent of pissing you off, sending the message that you're a f*g, whatever. With that in mind, if you pull out the gun you've just given yourself another shot at dying or killing someone who had no intention of doing the same to you.

i personally would prefer people act to diffuse the situation, rather than bring it up to the next level, even if it means being the one sh*t upon.

Using your car as a weapon....to piss someone off. Say it out loud. Drugs, mentally unstable....not rational....combination of the three. No it doesn't happen every day, but it has happened to me...hopefully never again, but given the scenario again, I would like to have had the choice. What some have not mentioned is that it may de-escalate. People tend not to assault those that aim a weapon at them...i.e. capable of defending themselves....but again, we're not dealing with rational folks.

Carrying a weapon is not new to me...either in professional or personal sense. Don't want to carry, don't carry. Hopefully we both roll 6's and never have to be in that crappy of a situation.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that our lives have been spent doing much different things and dealing with much different people.

Im out...I've got better things to do today.

[MadRocketSci]

Using your car as a weapon....to piss someone off. Say it out loud. Drugs, mentally unstable....not rational....combination of the three. No it doesn't happen every day, but it has happened to me...hopefully never again, but given the scenario again, I would like to have had the choice. What some have not mentioned is that it may de-escalate. People tend not to assault those that aim a weapon at them...i.e. capable of defending themselves....but again, we're not dealing with rational folks.

Carrying a weapon is not new to me...either in professional or personal sense. Don't want to carry, don't carry. Hopefully we both roll 6's and never have to be in that crappy of a situation.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that our lives have been spent doing much different things and dealing with much different people.

Im out...I've got better things to do today.

I'm actually not far from Parker right now, thanks for the warning about the locals :) I haven't bothered to change my location on this forum.

I went over the situation you described that brought this up. No, I haven't been in a situation like that, but it seems you weren't physically injured in any way...if they wanted you dead they would have just run you over. So, now let's say you have your gun and pull it out, now what? 1) The guy screeches off...that's good. Maybe he makes a mental note to not f*ck with us, or maybe he makes a mental note to be more "prepared" next time. 2) The guy sees this and reaches behind his seat for his shotgun. What you gonna do? (probably what the driver would ask). Both of you are rational and in an awkward situation, someone says ok i'm putting the gun down, both of you do, and the guy drives off. Great. Now what if the guy is all "you gonna pull a f*ckin gun on me you f*cking d*uchebag in your *** superhero costume"...Now you better get ready to shoot in cleats.

All I'm saying, you were not harmed at all. If you let the guy go then you can continue on with life, note the guy's license plate and file a report. If you whip out that gun, assuming equal probabilities of all scenarios, there is about a 33% chance of someone dying, and since you're kinda out in the open, i'd suspect it might be you.

Isn't this type of analysis what you started the thread for?

[witcombusa]

I'm not a gun person and pretty ignorant on the whole subject...however...

it seems you are still alive after these 2-4 incidents, and if you had pulled a gun out, and the drivers had guns, it seems to me a significant probability that one of you would be dead, unless you both managed to calm down in the heat of the moment. guns escalate the situation and a peaceful resolution then requires both parties be rational, according to the principles of mutually assured destruction.

if someone wants to run me off the road then i'm getting off the road asap, to fight it out another day in court, if lucky.

Mine were all "hit and runs" from behind. There was no "I'm getting off the road" to it. My friends was up close and personal. One you can do almost nothing about, the other, maybe. But I'd sure give it a go rather than stand there helpless and at the very least get beat to hell.

[bcm119]

What I'm reading here is that people who carry do it for emotional reasons, not for rational safety reasons. I won't deny there are crazy people out there, but if they want to kill you all they have to do is steer 5 feet to the right. If you live long enough for them to harass you, it follows that they didn't intend to kill you.

The bottom line for me is that carrying a gun is not going to do much for your personal safety on a bicycle; however, if you want to win a d!ck measuring contest with the local redneck and come home with your pride intact, while running the risk of getting shot at, carrying a gun might be for you.

[MadRocketSci]

What I'm reading here is that people who carry do it for emotional reasons, not for rational safety reasons. I won't deny there are crazy people out there, but if they want to kill you all they have to do is steer 5 feet to the right. If you live long enough for them to harass you, it follows that they didn't intend to kill you.

The bottom line for me is that carrying a gun is not going to do much for your personal safety on a bicycle; however, if you want to win a d!ck measuring contest with the local redneck and come home with your pride intact, while running the risk of getting shot at, carrying a gun might be for you.

there does seem to be an "even the score, revenge" type rationalizing that is really the message. Or maybe i'm just a closet buddhist.

[verticaldoug]

there does seem to be an "even the score, revenge" type rationalizing that is really the message. Or maybe i'm just a closet buddhist.

Yes. You hit the nail on the head. I rather get the crap beat out of me than take a life.

This road leads to ruin. I suggest people here read a short story by Martin Amis called 'Bujak and the strong force'

[firerescuefin]

What I'm reading here is that people who carry do it for emotional reasons, not for rational safety reasons. I won't deny there are crazy people out there, but if they want to kill you all they have to do is steer 5 feet to the right. If you live long enough for them to harass you, it follows that they didn't intend to kill you.

The bottom line for me is that carrying a gun is not going to do much for your personal safety on a bicycle; however, if you want to win a d!ck measuring contest with the local redneck and come home with your pride intact, while running the risk of getting shot at, carrying a gun might be for you.

I prefer to have dick measuring contest with Marxists from Berkley ;)

[BumbleBeeDave]

I do not own a firearm.

I, however, am a concealed weapon.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l84/gmmtwo/pinkweapon.jpg

. . . want to hear a comment from you about my zebra stripes! :D

BBD

[bcm119]

I prefer to have dick measuring contest with Marxists from Berkley ;)

I was waiting for a Berkeley remark... it's only a matter of time in any vaguely political thread. Oh well, it's worth it for the weather and food here!

[firerescuefin]

I was waiting for a Berkeley remark... it's only a matter of time in any vaguely political thread. Oh well, it's worth it for the weather and food here!

You broke out with the underhanded insult and dick measuring comment....take a joke or move on.

[MadRocketSci]

I was waiting for a Berkeley remark... it's only a matter of time in any vaguely political thread. Oh well, it's worth it for the weather and food here!

Mmmm breads of india....kirala....drool....

oh yeah beat cal

btw the weather is mostly awesome out in CO as well...little windy sometimes in the spring...but very BA-esque w/o the morning fog...

[Germany_chris]

i know what you mean geoff... I guess my only take is the fact that even though i've been trained to use a handgun and have had to qualify at the range several times i guess i'm not that confident that if i did fire it would actually hit anything... Much less a moving, human target that i bet would become very small in the heat of the moment... would having a ccw scare off some potential threats? Maybe... But then again, as others have said, i wonder how many times it would actually escalate it to violence...

Oh well, i'm going back to my national champ's jersey/rapha thread... :d

….

[bcm119]

You broke out with the underhanded insult and dick measuring comment....take a joke or move on.

I thought I did "take a joke".

[firerescuefin]

I thought I did "take a joke".

Lost in the translation...truce:)

[Kirk007]

I guess you don't know too many cops then.....


If they are "sensitive" they can avert their tender eyes....

Google states 800,000 law enforcement officers in the US. You know half of 'em?

[SoCalSteve]

Ok, it's time...

Thank you all for participating. Good info!