Fwiw....

[William]

I know it hasn't been real popular to question the President or the Government in the recent past, but a quote by Teddy Roosevelt came to mind (a few additions by me) that should be remembered.

FWIW:

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants (= Government). He (it) should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his (it's) good conduct or bad conduct, his (it's) efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his (it's) acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him (the Government) when he (it) does wrong as to praise him (the government) when he (it) does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President (government), or that we are to stand by the President (government), right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him (it) or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him (the government) than about any one else."

"Teddy Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star", 149
May 7, 1918

("William in the Serotta Forum", Sept, 1 2005)


"There is not a man of us who does not at times need a helping hand to be stretched out to him, and then shame upon him who will not stretch out the helping hand to his brother."

Teddy Roosevelt, Pasadena, CA, May 8, 1903


William

[Tom Byrnes]

What William (and Theodore Roosevelt) said.

[davep]

I know it hasn't been real popular to question the President or the Government in the recent past...

William,

I guess you haven't been watching TV or reading the newspapers in the last week. :)

[Serpico]

TR :beer:

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Let's see here. Clinton was almost impeached over a juicy intern and a cigar, and our boy wonder George W. Jr. lies to the free World to start a war to make more money for friends and family. Instead he ( Bush) is re-elected and is loved by red necks here, and there, and everywhere!!
Why did he not get impeached??

Off topic. Impeach Bush. When Clinton lied nobody died. :argue: :fight:

[beungood]

"Let's see here. Clinton was almost impeached over a juicy intern and a cigar, and our boy wonder George W. Jr. lies to the free World to start a war to make more money for friends and family."


I have to disagree with you here VanillaG, Clinton was almost impeached because he lied under oath several times to not only the nation who elected him, but, also to the person who trusted him the most his wife. No=one ever said anything bout him selling nights in the Whitehouse to his Political supporters or when he lobbed missles into Libya blindly over the USS Stark. I served in the Miltary under both Democrats and Republicans and consider myself middle of the road and not a servant to either party. But the years spent in the Miltary when Clintonistas and their ilk were in power were the lean years where we had lousy foof, and yelled Bang! Bang! on field ops.
As far as your lies are concerned ,your only getting what the media is allowing you to hear and not the good that we are doing over there or some of the things The military are finding there. There have been some nasty results from certain IED'ds that are caused not be explosive power factor but more by C_____ reactions.

I think everyone should rally behind the president and judge him when it's all over. Just my own .02 cents FWIW. :argue:

[Vanilla Gorilla]

"Let's see here. Clinton was almost impeached over a juicy intern and a cigar, and our boy wonder George W. Jr. lies to the free World to start a war to make more money for friends and family."


I have to disagree with you here VanillaG, Clinton was almost impeached because he lied under oath several times to not only the nation who elected him, but, also to the person who trusted him the most his wife. No=one ever said anything bout him selling nights in the Whitehouse to his Political supporters or when he lobbed missles into Libya blindly over the USS Stark. I served in the Miltary under both Democrats and Republicans and consider myself middle of the road and not a servant to either party. But the years spent in the Miltary when Clintonistas and their ilk were in power were the lean years where we had lousy foof, and yelled Bang! Bang! on field ops.
As far as your lies are concerned ,your only getting what the media is allowing you to hear and not the good that we are doing over there or some of the things The military are finding there. There have been some nasty results from certain IED'ds that are caused not be explosive power factor but more by C_____ reactions.

I think everyone should rally behind the president and judge him when it's all over. Just my own .02 cents FWIW. :argue:

Ok true Clinton lied....But!! about messing around with a juicy intern. Not as bad as lying about a huge horendous WAR, bankrupting this nation, puting us into debt, and killing tens of thousands along the way. ALMOST EVEY MAN LIES TO HIS WIFE ABOUT SOMETHING, why not about a Rubensesque Monica?? How embarrasing must it have been...for poor Billy.
Bush is a crook, as is **** Cheney, and Condeleezza etc...

Anyway....it is Ok to boo the president, right now. He sucks. Always will....

[Kevin]

Vanilla wins. Monica may have sucked, but Bush focked the entire world when he opened his mouth and started a useless war.

By the way, does anyone have a good handlebar to suggest before this thread really goes down .................................................. .................................................. ..... Hill .................................................. ........... ary.


Kevin

[Climb01742]

why have american presidents shrunk? compare bush or clinton or carter or nixon to washington, jefferson, lincoln or teddy roosevelt or even franklin...as the world and our problems have gotten bigger, our politicians have gotten smaller...where is our abe lincoln?

BTW, great quote william...who said that patriotism is the last refuge of scondrels? it's fun sometimes to watch CSPAN when they have tony blair answering questions from parliment...he isn't afraid to be questioned and he's able to intelligently answer. wow. what a concept.

[keno]

since you have asked the unanswerable, rhetorical question, let me pose two others.

Would washington, jefferson, lincoln or teddy roosevelt or even franklin have run for public office in our times knowing the perils of modern media and the internet and all that has come to mean running for public office let alone serving in public office?

If any had, would he have won?

I'm reminded of the song "What a Difference a Day Makes", which, in this case, might be "What a Difference One or Two Hundred Years Make."

keno

[Climb01742]

good questions, keno. the press in lincoln's day was pretty vicious, but a smaller percentage of the population had access to newspapers. debates were the primary way voters were exposed to candidates. and in teddy roosevelt's day, it was the heyday of yellow journalism, led in new york by joseph pulitzer, before he used the prizes to rehab his image. but we do seem to get a lower caliber of candidate today. who would open themselves to the viciousness of the present political process? maybe someone who's seen worse...like the hanoi hilton?

[Graeme]

As a frequent lurker in this forum this thread is the one to get me posting! Sorry in advance for the rant and my apologies to anyone I upset.

Someone has said on another thread that much of life is an illusion. I couldn't agree more.

I spent many years living in Southern Cal and went thu several quakes any one of which could have been the "big one" that threatened the fabric of our reality at the time. A couple of years immediately prior to 9/11, I spent in NYC and was aware even then about the fragility of that great city. I have been chased out of NO by a hurricane threats in the past but it remained my favourite city in the US to visit and never once did I give a thought to not going there even though because of what I do I was probably more aware than most of thin thread by which it existed as a city. I very deliberately chose not to move my family there to live however... what does that say?

Every place I have mentioned are very special to me and the sights of NO going thru its current tragedy while not a surprise are no less devasting to me. No place on earth can withstand the forces of nature when they decide to unleash themselves on us. All we can do is again realise our fraglity, pray to God, bury the dead and get on with sorting the mess out. That society breaks down in the face of these calamities even temporarily should also be no surprise, particularly when it usually impacts most on the less fortunate in society. That very thin veneer of life we live on is called civilistaion.

Having said that.... while living in the US I was considered a raging pinko, here in my own country I am considered something slightly to the right of Genghis Khan. I think I'm apolitical -- but when Geroge W. stays on vacation for 24 hours before finally returning to Washington to be seen to lead his country at a time of real need is reprehensible. Rudy G. showed the required sort of leadership at a time when the people of NYC needed reassurance that the fabric of their lives wasn't collapsing. In reality he probably had no impact on how things played out but at least he was there. Those in the Superdome and NO Convention center needed the same reassurance. A flypast at 2000ft, a peak out the window and a flippant remark about the extent of damage is not leadership.Taking another 3 days to get on the gound amongst the people is beyond comprehension. Quibbling now about looters, why evacuation orders weren't acted upon, who is to blame for FEMA not being better prepared is all irrelevant at present. It is what it is and people will do the best they can with what they have available. Strong leadership is what is required to keep the veneer intact and I haven't seen much in evidence at the top recently.

I know that many countries in the world have offered assistance (will pride allow you to accept the same hand you offer others?) but the enormity of the situation is beyond comprehension. Will NO survive as a city even if the desire and funds are there to rebuild? I hope so 'cause I'll be in real need of a good Jambalaya and a few Dixie's soon but I fear it will take many years before it will have the commerce and vibrancy of a real city again.

All I can do from a distance is make my donation to the American Red Cross, wait to hear the news of my friends and business collegues in AL, MS and LA and pray that everyone has survived if not with homes but at least with a prospect of a future.

I'll go back to lurking now but will take the opportunity to express my profound respect to all those regular contributors here. While just a recreational cyclist I have learnt so much here and you all motivate me to keep cranking. Also the general tone of this forum is very special and I have an enormous admiration for the humanity so frequently expressed. Thanks for letting me peek in the window and thanks to our host Serotta!

I love my new CDA ... time to go riding!

[93legendti]

I know it hasn't been real popular to question the President or the Government in the recent past, but a quote by Teddy Roosevelt came to mind (a few additions by me) that should be remembered.

FWIW:

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants (= Government). He (it) should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his (it's) good conduct or bad conduct, his (it's) efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his (it's) acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him (the Government) when he (it) does wrong as to praise him (the government) when he (it) does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President (government), or that we are to stand by the President (government), right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him (it) or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him (the government) than about any one else."

"Teddy Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star", 149
May 7, 1918

("William in the Serotta Forum", Sept, 1 2005)


"There is not a man of us who does not at times need a helping hand to be stretched out to him, and then shame upon him who will not stretch out the helping hand to his brother."

Teddy Roosevelt, Pasadena, CA, May 8, 1903


William


No, it is fine, just don't question the Democratic Mayor of New Orleans or the Democratic Gov. of Louisiana for their "efforts". This is all Pres. Bush/Repubs' fault... :rolleyes:

If I could digress for a second about an irrelevant subject here, cycling, I see a Discovery rider won a stage in the Vuelta yesterday. George won last week in France...Where are the posters who say Disco only wins in July?

[shinomaster]

HOw many of our former famous Presidents do you think had affairs but they were never reported by the media because it was a more private matter and did not have anything to do with running the country? The media have changed but have the men in office?
George W was a coke head.

[Lifelover]

I know it hasn't been real popular to question the President or the Government in the recent past, but a quote by Teddy Roosevelt came to mind (a few additions by me) that should be remembered.

FWIW:

"... Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him (it) or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him (the government) than about any one else."
...
William

In most cases the are very few people who really know the truth of a matter. However, there are always an abundance of people willing to talk about it.

If we were limited by TR's criteria above, I don't think a single person on this forum would be able to comment on what is happening in Miss and LA right now.

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Maybe if all those affected were rich and white they would have gotten help sooner??

:confused:

[Serpico]

dems go here ---> www.democraticunderground.com

pubs go here ---> www.freerepublic.com

:)


anyone here running White Industries LTA hubs?

[JohnS]

Maybe if all those affected were rich and white they would have gotten help sooner??

:confused:
Quit trying to play the stupid race card. I'm sure there's just as many homeless white people as any other race. You're that rarest of minorites...a troll who should be extinct.

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Quit trying to play the stupid race card. I'm sure there's just as many homeless white people as any other race. You're that rarest of minorites...a troll who should be extinct.

True, I made a cheap shot at our perfect utopia of a society.
Sorry of I offended you John. I am not a troll. I am a gorilla.

[JohnS]

True, I made a cheap shot at our perfect utopia of a society.
Sorry of I offended you John. I am not a troll. I am a gorilla.
Our society is not perfect but race didn't have anything to do with this situation.

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Our society is not perfect but race didn't have anything to do with this situation.


Good!! I sincerely hope it did not.. Sad, but people have been saying it could be a reason for such a slow response...

[Argos]

Gorilla,

Bull. This has been unlike anything ever in this country. The devestated area covers twice the square miles of Pennsylvania.

Shame on the Black Caucus, shame on Jesse Jackson, shame on Rev. Sharpton for making this into a race issue.

Rediculous. That there is no defense for the "Race" card being played is also rediculous. Someone needs to tell them to shut their Pie-Holes. Making accusations like that fosters the segregation of beliefs and encourages distrust among races that in this Day and age need to be past that in a time of horrible despair.

Funny, the only dead bodies I saw on CNN were white. A white guy bloated and floating on his back, bursting his clothing. A white Lady floating Face down is filthy water, and a white Grandmother in a wheelchair.

While we, Black and White and Asian and Hispanic and everyone else are focused on rescue, regardless of Race, these bastards stir the pot.

They should be ashamed of themselves.

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Gorilla,

Bull. This has been unlike anything ever in this country. The devestated area covers twice the square miles of Pennsylvania.

Shame on the Black Caucus, shame on Jesse Jackson, shame on Rev. Sharpton for making this into a race issue.

Rediculous. That there is no defense for the "Race" card being played is also rediculous. Someone needs to tell them to shut their Pie-Holes. Making accusations like that fosters the segregation of beliefs and encourages distrust among races that in this Day and age need to be past that in a time of horrible despair.

Funny, the only dead bodies I saw on CNN were white. A white guy bloated and floating on his back, bursting his clothing. A white Lady floating Face down is filthy water, and a white Grandmother in a wheelchair.

While we, Black and White and Asian and Hispanic and everyone else are focused on rescue, regardless of Race, these bastards stir the pot.

They should be ashamed of themselves.

You are absolutely right Argos. I just like to pick on Bush when ever possible.

[Argos]

I have no problem with that. I have no problem with you. :beer:

I just can't believe that racism is making the news cycle.

[William]

No, it is fine, just don't question the Democratic Mayor of New Orleans or the Democratic Gov. of Louisiana for their "efforts". This is all Pres. Bush/Repubs' fault... :rolleyes:



Actually 93, I think it should be applied to both sides equally.


William

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Do you think this would be happening if the storm was in an East coast city like Boston or D.C.? Honestly I'm just curious!

[William]

good questions, keno. the press in lincoln's day was pretty vicious, but a smaller percentage of the population had access to newspapers. debates were the primary way voters were exposed to candidates. and in teddy roosevelt's day, it was the heyday of yellow journalism, led in new york by joseph pulitzer, before he used the prizes to rehab his image. but we do seem to get a lower caliber of candidate today. who would open themselves to the viciousness of the present political process? maybe someone who's seen worse...like the hanoi hilton?

"Men with the muckrake are often indispensable to the well-being of society, but only if they know when to stop raking the muck." "An epidemic in indiscriminate assault upon character does not good, but very great harm." "There should be relentless exposure of and attack upon every evil practice, whether in politics, in business, or in social life. I hail as a benefactor every writer or speaker, every man who, on the platform, or in book, magazine or newspaper, with merciless severity makes such attack, provided always that he in his turn remembers that the attack is of use only if it is absolutely truthful."

Teddy Roosevelt
Washington, DC, April 14, 190

[Big Dan]

Guys it's sad to say but the Mayor of N.O. and the Governor of Louisiana were not ready for this.


:(

btw ...shooting at rescue helicopters doesn't make them come back quicker.

[gdw]

Troll White, I mean Vanilla Gorilla
Do you really believe that the government is dragging its feet because some of the victims are minorities? Do you think Bush and company are intentionally screwing over the red states ( Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama didn't go to Kerry) to get even with the poor minorities there? I know that you can't stand Bush but do you really think the Republicans are that foolish? Honestly I'm just curious!

[93legendti]

Actually 93, I think it should be applied to both sides equally.


William


I agree. I wasn't directing my comment at you. I'm sorry if it came off that way.

[Dr. Doofus]

location

unlike the major cities on the east or west coast, N.O. does not have multiple, high-volume "points of access," nor was it possible or economically justifiable to stockpile sufficient amounts of supplies for a "what if" disaster, given the low economic output of the state of Louisiana.

apart from the port and tourism, N.O. does not have a lot going for it economically -- its one of the poorer, and yes, blacker major cities in the US. however, the relief problem is not race-related -- its the result of a logistical nightmare.

it is terribly unfortunate that the people who are really suffering are the people with the least resources, the people who had to stay because they couldn't go anywhere else. the numbers of people stuck in the toxic muck that is NO are a testament to the degree of poverty in the city.

this is the flooding of St. Bernard Parish in 1927 on a grand scale...but it wasn't a C of E miscalculation this time...just the storm that was due to hit eventually finally did...read the first paragraphs of this 2004 article....

http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/

[Dr. Doofus]

anyway

John sent some amazing pics of some recent frames...and doof can't wait until the thing gets rolling with the Doc Lobster...

KP will be doin the numbers on it...steel fork and a 1" HS, cause oodf is eccentric and cheap and wants to use the Record HS and one of the Ritchey quill stems he has in a box...and E-RITCHIE will tell ya ya don't need a crab-on fork anyway that the steelie can dial the trail in to confection purrfection and if yer whinin about a pound of weight yerraweenie anyway....

yeah

so there


oh..and the fund is up to 600.00


(Ok, callous bike talk on the Katrina thread but maybe this is one that needs killin)

[shinomaster]

Troll White, I mean Vanilla Gorilla
Do you really believe that the government is dragging its feet because some of the victims are minorities? Do you think Bush and company are intentionally screwing over the red states ( Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama didn't go to Kerry) to get even with the poor minorities there? I know that you can't stand Bush but do you really think the Republicans are that foolish? Honestly I'm just curious!???

[beungood]

Ok true Clinton lied....But!! about messing around with a juicy intern. Not as bad as lying about a huge horendous WAR, bankrupting this nation, puting us into debt, and killing tens of thousands along the way. ALMOST EVErY MAN LIES TO HIS WIFE ABOUT SOMETHING"

Yeah I am sure most guys maybe do and for most upstanding people(Fourm members..) they are probably trivial little things,but, it doesn't make it right. It showed me and a lot of our guys what he was made of no-balls to admit he was wrong. This is kind of off the subject a little but guys I work with on the street that cheat on their wives, I distrust them when we are performing something high risk or requiring someone who will stay when it get's dangerous.

And as far as useless war, There are chemical weapons over there and by the time we went in they were moved and cached under ground or moved over the line to Jordan and Syria most likely. Any information and hard fact the CIC might be able to show the Nation might betray any intelligence sources they have in place and give away the little intelligence gathering ability we have in theatre there.

Sorry,but, I just can't stand a lie to your face cheat. :argue:

[Ken Lehner]

"Let's see here. Clinton was almost impeached over a juicy intern and a cigar, and our boy wonder George W. Jr. lies to the free World to start a war to make more money for friends and family."


I have to disagree with you here VanillaG, Clinton was almost impeached because he lied under oath several times to not only the nation who elected him, but, also to the person who trusted him the most his wife.

For the record, Bill Clinton was impeached, and acquitted. That little bit in the Senate presided over by Rehnquist (RIP) was the impeachment.

[93legendti]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=10845