An industry of amateurs

[Kontact]

Some of you may have read my past frustrations with Cervelo, a company run by smart engineers who make pretty nice bicycles, but can't figure out how to route cables.

Recently I've had a bunch of repairs to do on new Treks. Some highlights:
Rear brake cables routed on the right side of the Madone top tube, so brake housing is twisted at tight angles and rubs the crap out of the headtube paint.
The BB cable guide on Speed Concept bikes that is a flat plate with a single mounting screw - so it pivots when you shift the front derailleur, screwing up the rear shifting.
The same set of Speed Concept bikes have large brake pad mounting bolts on the under-BB mounted rear brake. The right bolt tends to snag the chain when you down shift to the small chainwheel.

In more recent news, Damon Rinard of Cervelo (formerly of Trek) recently finished a set of tests that proved to him that high BB stiffness is completely immaterial to bicycle efficiency. Cervelo sounds like it will be abandoning the PITA BBRight system since it was completely unnecessary in the first place.

Then there's Di2, which stops working on cobblestones because of vibration, so pros can't use it for some races and stages.

And how did a major composite manufacturer not realize that its carbon rims required high temperature epoxy so they didn't delaminate from braking temperatures?


Who is designing bikes these days???? It seems like no one with experience is doing it, and the fact that most large design companies now employee engineers rather than industry apprenticed bike enthusiasts has led to bikes with some of the worst functional problems I've seen in 20 years.

Why does my 1989 Campy bike shift better on its bare chainrings than most modern components? Why is current STI more sensitive and hard to adjust than the first one from the '80s?

I don't think anyone with experience is designing the majority of bicycles these days, and the results are bikes that work great in computer simulations and wind tunnels, but won't function correctly on the road. Much is said about "beta testing" in electronics, but I don't see our industry as much better.

No wonder so many of us are buying handmade bikes built bike people, not recent college graduates.

[jpw]

I find it hard to read the text on your website default home page. On my Chrome browser the page is a black background with grey faded text.

Is EPS better on cobbles?

[alexstar]

Who is designing bikes these days????


Marketing divisions...


No wonder so many of us are buying handmade bikes built bike people, not recent college graduates.

Hear, hear. Bike industry lifers tend to know what works.

[Kontact]

I find it hard to read the text on your website default home page. On my Chrome browser the page is a black background with grey faded text.

Is EPS better on cobbles?

Funny, I use Chrome, and the text is white on gray. You might check your settings, but I'll look into it.


EPS has been in development so long because of waterproofing and shockproofing. Campy claims they work on cobbles, and that you can see pros using it when their Di2 riding competitors had to go back to standard DA. That should be easy enough to check by looking at photos from the classics.

Overall, I think EPS is a better system with much better ergonomics, but I've only had the training and I'm building my first EPS bike this week.

[Steve in SLO]

A recent trip to NAHBS showed there is still plenty of high-quality, elegant engineering in the bicycling industry.
OTOH, engineering being driven by marketing is a misstep waiting to happen.

[thinpin]

I remember,
A Colnago with the FD tab upsidedown.
A Dawes with one fork 1/4" shorter than the other.
A Gios with no threading in the BB
iI wasn't even in the industry.
More QC stuff than design but I bet they made stuff that didn't work well back then too. I fact synchro shifters spring to mind.
Is it really all that different now?

[Kontact]

A recent trip to NAHBS showed there is still plenty of high-quality, elegant engineering in the bicycling industry.
OTOH, engineering being driven by marketing is a misstep waiting to happen.

NAHBS is the kind of thing I refer to in that last paragraph - good handmade bikes built by talented enthusiasts, not corporations. Factory made super bikes are the ones I'm growing increasingly concerned about.

[Kontact]

I remember,
A Colnago with the FD tab upsidedown.
A Dawes with one fork 1/4" shorter than the other.
A Gios with no threading in the BB
iI wasn't even in the industry.
More QC stuff than design but I bet they made stuff that didn't work well back then too. I fact synchro shifters spring to mind.
Is it really all that different now?

Honestly, I think it is worse now. Bad QC is one thing, but Colnago didn't design the FD tab upside down - Trek did get exactly what they designed. And Synchro worked fine on some derailleurs, but was mainly bad because it was a retrofit. When the dedicated index derailleurs came out in 1992, the basic Syncro shifter continued, and is the basis for Ergopower - the shifter was fine, the derailleurs weren't.

The stuff I'm seeing now just seems sketchier than ever - and on stuff costing 5 to 10 times what it cost 20 years ago. And I don't think adding 2 cogs is the reason for it.

[MorganColeman]

I think you bring up some interesting points. My local bike shop charges $150 to replace the cable and housing on any Cervelo. Like you, they can't fathom Cervelo's reason for designing the cable routing that way.

What I've noticed in the past 10 years is that new bikes perform REALLY well, but only when they're completely dialed in. They're finicky to work on, the components are less intuitive, and they always require attention. Further, the parts don't last nearly as long.

[Frankwurst]

NAHBS is the kind of thing I refer to in that last paragraph - good handmade bikes built by talented enthusiasts, not corporations. Factory made super bikes are the ones I'm growing increasingly concerned about.

There's a reason I ride the frames I do and use the equipment I do.
The *****s been around for ages and works just fine. But then again I don't care anymore and don't look to the fastest,greatest, lightest state of the art bicycle or parts. I look to the next ride no matter what bike I'm fortunate enough to throw my leg over.:beer:

[old_fat_and_slow]

...

[FixedNotBroken]

I think you bring up some interesting points. My local bike shop charges $150 to replace the cable and housing on any Cervelo. Like you, they can't fathom Cervelo's reason for designing the cable routing that way.

What I've noticed in the past 10 years is that new bikes perform REALLY well, but only when they're completely dialed in. They're finicky to work on, the components are less intuitive, and they always require attention. Further, the parts don't last nearly as long.

I just had my S5 team built up with SR 11 and it shifts flawlessly, front and back. I don't get where the complaints are coming from. Other than purchasing the adapter for the BBright BB, it's been great. I don't see the complaint with Cervelo bikes..the cable routing hasn't caused me or the shop I go to any problems.

[FixedNotBroken]

Some of you may have read my past frustrations with Cervelo, a company run by smart engineers who make pretty nice bicycles, but can't figure out how to route cables.

Recently I've had a bunch of repairs to do on new Treks. Some highlights:
Rear brake cables routed on the right side of the Madone top tube, so brake housing is twisted at tight angles and rubs the crap out of the headtube paint.
The BB cable guide on Speed Concept bikes that is a flat plate with a single mounting screw - so it pivots when you shift the front derailleur, screwing up the rear shifting.
The same set of Speed Concept bikes have large brake pad mounting bolts on the under-BB mounted rear brake. The right bolt tends to snag the chain when you down shift to the small chainwheel.

In more recent news, Damon Rinard of Cervelo (formerly of Trek) recently finished a set of tests that proved to him that high BB stiffness is completely immaterial to bicycle efficiency. Cervelo sounds like it will be abandoning the PITA BBRight system since it was completely unnecessary in the first place.

Then there's Di2, which stops working on cobblestones because of vibration, so pros can't use it for some races and stages.

And how did a major composite manufacturer not realize that its carbon rims required high temperature epoxy so they didn't delaminate from braking temperatures?


Who is designing bikes these days???? It seems like no one with experience is doing it, and the fact that most large design companies now employee engineers rather than industry apprenticed bike enthusiasts has led to bikes with some of the worst functional problems I've seen in 20 years.

Why does my 1989 Campy bike shift better on its bare chainrings than most modern components? Why is current STI more sensitive and hard to adjust than the first one from the '80s?

I don't think anyone with experience is designing the majority of bicycles these days, and the results are bikes that work great in computer simulations and wind tunnels, but won't function correctly on the road. Much is said about "beta testing" in electronics, but I don't see our industry as much better.

No wonder so many of us are buying handmade bikes built bike people, not recent college graduates.


If you don't like Cervelo so much and dislike dealing with them, why do you carry the brand? Wouldn't you want to carry brands you can endorse and support rather than selling a product you don't like?

[ultraman6970]

I have heard and seen stuff like the ones thinpin says... the last one is from a trek dealer. The mechanic from that shop is maybe the only mechanic I trust besides my old master builder and oldpotato :D ...

I went to ask him if he had a couple of donuts to spare, then we arrived to the cable routing and brand bike and he started making faces about trek and their bad ideas in the design for 2012 and that every single year manufacturers might be using a roulette to put the cable guides and holes in the frames because every year stuff makes less and less sense, that means way more work for them.

The funny thing is that if you look at those chinese bootlegs, those frames almost have no problems with cable routing :D The guys learn fast apparently.

[54ny77]

If I may offer a counterpoint, I've seen plenty of handmade builds as well as the transaction process itself handled like it was all done by a recent college grad...in transgender poetry studies....through an online correspondence course.

The grass ain't greener. It's just different grass.

But I hear what you're saying. I had a Parlee that had a QC manufacturing defect that if someone had checked it over, it would have never left the factory. Nonetheless, the Parlee team handled the issue in a first class manner.


No wonder so many of us are buying handmade bikes built bike people, not recent college graduates.

[Kontact]

If you don't like Cervelo so much and dislike dealing with them, why do you carry the brand? Wouldn't you want to carry brands you can endorse and support rather than selling a product you don't like?

I don't own the bike shop I work at - I'm just the service manager, so what we carry isn't my call. I also don't think Cervelo's are terrible bikes, they just have some details that I, as a mechanic, really dislike. Anyone who has dealt with French cars could understand that sort of love/hate relationship.

I think it's great that you like your S5. And I think if you ever had to change a single derailleur cable on the road you would understand what the issues are.

But the S5 routing isn't as bad as the 2010 S3. We ended up warrantying almost all of those frames for cable issues.

[FixedNotBroken]

I don't own the bike shop I work at - I'm just the service manager, so what we carry isn't my call. I also don't think Cervelo's are terrible bikes, they just have some details that I, as a mechanic, really dislike. Anyone who has dealt with French cars could understand that sort of love/hate relationship.

I think it's great that you like your S5. And I think if you ever had to change a single derailleur cable on the road you would understand what the issues are.

But the S5 routing isn't as bad as the 2010 S3. We ended up warrantying almost all of those frames for cable issues.

I had an S3 and did all the work on it myself. I didn't have troubles whatsoever and it was an easy build. Maybe it's an issue with some but not all? I guess I haven't had problems with routing or building it up. I do know that S2's had quite a few problems but so far, I haven't. I had the S5 built up by a friend and there were no complications. I had heard that Campy isn't "compatible" or doesn't work well with the routing on the S5 and it's together and shifting/riding flawlessly. I guess I am a lucky one that hasn't had problems. I talked to my buddy who works for

[FixedNotBroken]

I don't own the bike shop I work at - I'm just the service manager, so what we carry isn't my call. I also don't think Cervelo's are terrible bikes, they just have some details that I, as a mechanic, really dislike. Anyone who has dealt with French cars could understand that sort of love/hate relationship.

I think it's great that you like your S5. And I think if you ever had to change a single derailleur cable on the road you would understand what the issues are.

But the S5 routing isn't as bad as the 2010 S3. We ended up warrantying almost all of those frames for cable issues.

Also being the service manager...you told me last summer that you weren't aware of a BB adapter for Campy for the R series and said that I would have to have a custom one machined. I would assume that you're more than familiar with issues like that.

[fatallightning]

The 2010 S3s were a nightmare. #1, trying to run the housing out those stupid pop out cable stop panels made me want to kill myself, especially on the small frames. #2, when you finally got them buttoned up, sometimes the stops would have play and making rear shifting wonky.

Some of the new Cervelos (and other brands) do not play nice with Sram Red. Cervelo would blame the Red FD, or rotor round rings, Sram would blame soft frame braze ons, etc etc.

[Kontact]

Also being the service manager...you told me last summer that you weren't aware of a BB adapter for Campy for the R series and said that I would have to have a custom one machined. I would assume that you're more than familiar with issues like that.

Yep, we were hearing the wrong things from our Cervelo rep at the time about the adapters, but when I got the right information I clarified that on that same thread.

What's the problem?

[jchasse]

when buying a bike or bike part, would you rather buy it from:

a bicycling enthusiast & bike design pro,

or,

a pro cyclist & design "enthusiast"?

just sayin'...

[Ti Designs]

EPS has been in development so long because of waterproofing and shockproofing.

I heard they hired Lucas electronics and the delays were due to bikes bursting into flames without warning...

[rustychisel]

Good thread, nice rant.

But I have some sympathy for the notion that it's often been that way. Stuff is designed, doesn't work, word gets around... Campagnolo titanium BB axles anyone? Almost all of those got warrantied too, I believe.

Welded cable stops on head tubes? Welded cable stops on downtubes exactly where the front brake arm swings? Welded cable stops proud of the head tube which foul every brake known? What is this crap about?

It happens, but from reading a number of Kontact's posts I get the impression he's a man of fairly black and white opinions. Things either are or they aren't, and he doesn't like the current trends. I'd be interested in ideas on the integrated cadence magnet doohicky on new Treks left stay, etc. Fad or good development and design?

I'm more annoyed that so many manufacturers now treat a frame/fork/headset/seattube module as a disposable unit with a 2 year lifespan. If that.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . the large bike corporations are like my experience with corporate newspaper ownership. Nothing counts except profits, so in order to get personnel expenses down and profits up they RIF anybody that has any seniority and is making any good money. The result is a team with very little long-term experience or institutional knowledge--and that shows in the final product. But they work for less and the one-percenter owners just love that.

There are also now so many standards--for instance, bottom brackets--that it's no wonder there are issues.

BBD

[FlashUNC]

I'm a little perturbed at the premise. It assumes that there aren't passionate bike folks working at some of the major brands.

They make some curious decisions on things to be sure, but I'd still bet a fair bit a lot of the folks in the engineering departments are just as passionate about bikes as the one man in the shed.

Big guys can make great stuff and small guys can make crap. And vice versa.

As someone else said earlier in the thread, grass air greener. Just different.

[firerescuefin]

[QUOTE=FlashUNC;1120769]I'm a little perturbed at the premise. It assumes that there aren't passionate bike folks working at some of the major brands.
QUOTE]

No......the premise seemed to me that sound thought is not used by a lot of the designers and marketing hype tends to lead the way. I am the furthest thing from a retrogrouch, but *** comes to mind when I see some of the design attributes that are supposed to be the next great thing or are going to improve x factor exponentially.

[Kontact]

I'm a little perturbed at the premise. It assumes that there aren't passionate bike folks working at some of the major brands.

They make some curious decisions on things to be sure, but I'd still bet a fair bit a lot of the folks in the engineering departments are just as passionate about bikes as the one man in the shed.

Big guys can make great stuff and small guys can make crap. And vice versa.

As someone else said earlier in the thread, grass air greener. Just different.
Actually, the premise is not big=bad, small=good. The premise is that there seems to be a real lack of "corporate knowledge" in some companies. The thing that companies like Lynskey, Serotta, Parlee and Calfee have going for them is that there has been a Mr. Lynskey, Serotta, Parlee and Calfee working there since the beginning.

There isn't a single cause or a lack of passion on anyone's part. I am suggesting that routing a rear brake cable on the right side of the head tube is just plain ignorant, and anyone who had been around bikes for a long time wouldn't have done it or approved it for production.

I am not one of those Good 'ol Days guys who hates everything since Nuovo Record. I just think there are some companies that are not putting any sort of experienced thought into their products, and you can see that contrast when you are constantly taking apart lots of brands of bikes. Some companies do a fantastic job of routing cables, attaching braze-ons and designing dropouts. And then some companies put the rear derailleur where it interferes with getting the QR into place in the rear dropouts - stuff worked out 40 years ago.

There is always going to be new tech that doesn't work perfectly. My main annoyance is that most of the problems I'm seeing were "fixed" decades ago, but here they are again.

[Blue Jays]

"...There are also now so many standards -- for instance, bottom brackets -- that it's no wonder there are issues..."+1

How long before the 16-speed cassette is introduced to the marketplace coupled with razor-thin chain needing weekly replacement? :mad:

[Earl Gray]

No question you can always find a few failed products, but the equipment that we ride now is better than ANYTHING in the past.

[Jack Brunk]

Kontact get's it. Great stuff.

[choke]

I am suggesting that routing a rear brake cable on the right side of the head tube is just plain ignorant, and anyone who had been around bikes for a long time wouldn't have done it or approved it for production.I'd love to have a bike set up that way since I run my brakes moto style. :) The left side often makes it a PITA.

But...I do agree with most of what you've said.

[Kontact]

I'd love to have a bike set up that way since I run my brakes moto style. :) The left side often makes it a PITA.

But...I do agree with most of what you've said.

Actually, when I noticed it I emailed Trek to ask if this was a bike for the Brit or Aussie market.

They responded that they have these nice frame protector stickers. Goo from the previous sticker was all over the paint.

[Ti Designs]

No question you can always find a few failed products, but the equipment that we ride now is better than ANYTHING in the past.

See, marketing does work...

[soulspinner]

I heard they hired Lucas electronics and the delays were due to bikes bursting into flames without warning...

That was my old Austin Healy yer talkin about. We had to park it on a hill to start it everyday. Told the insurance company it came too close to the grill.

[Elefantino]

No question you can always find a few failed products, but the equipment that we ride now is better than ANYTHING in the past.
Equipment, maybe. Bikes, argument.
The funny thing is that if you look at those chinese bootlegs, those frames almost have no problems with cable routing :D The guys learn fast apparently.
That's because those bikes are made by hand.

[Ti Designs]

. . . the large bike corporations are like my experience with corporate newspaper ownership. Nothing counts except profits, so in order to get personnel expenses down and profits up they RIF anybody that has any seniority and is making any good money. The result is a team with very little long-term experience or institutional knowledge--and that shows in the final product. But they work for less and the one-percenter owners just love that.

There are also now so many standards--for instance, bottom brackets--that it's no wonder there are issues.

In the bike industry it's slightly less profit driven (I did say slightly) and more about a lack of understanding of the complexity of what they're making. Couple this with the fact that most of the designers have no contact at all with the rest of the world, and you have the bike industry. At one point I made a list of all the bar and stem makers and their phone and FAX numbers and sent that list to the whole list in the hope that maybe they would come to some form of standards. It didn't work. Deda now has a 35.0mm stem - ain't that great! Then there's the clear lack of product testing. I've done some product testing for a few clothing makers, they send me finished products, most of which are into production, and I almost always have to ask if any other cyclists have tested them before it got to me. I have a winter jacket that has tall, deep pockets - very nice, right? Not even my yoga instructor (who is made of rubber) can't get anything out of the pockets while wearing the jacket. So, if you want to use the pockets in your winter jacket, you have to stop and take the jacket (and your gloves) off.

The real problem lies in the image of cycling and the bike industry - it's all so simple. People from outside of cycling look at the bike industry and think "IF they can do it, I can do it better"... And really, who can't design a better bottom bracket?

[ergott]

Composite rim self-destruction shoulda been resolved during manufacturer's product testing and pro-team use.


The problem here was more due to people who didn't know that dragging their brakes on long descents was a bad idea. All of the carbon rim manufacturers had to redesign the composite material at the brake track for this.

Pros know how to brake (and need them less).

[Tom]

when buying a bike or bike part, would you rather buy it from:

a bicycling enthusiast & bike design pro,

or,

a pro cyclist & design "enthusiast"?

just sayin'...

The second. Practical experience at the edge of anger and ability trumps.

[christian]

Good thread, and not only because it reinforces my religious belief that for my riding, I'm still best served by a mid-nineties steel bike running C10 and 32h handbuilts. Doesn't do anything the best... but it just keeps doing it!

But I think the fundamental problem is this - the expected pace of development in the industry. If every year you have to demonstrate some new "enhancement" to the bikes you sell, by definition, some of those enhancements are going to suck. Think about the number of enhancements between say 1969 and 1982. Even if as a percentage, some were just as poor, fewer overall made it to market.

[William]

Change for the sake of change.:crap:






William

[AngryScientist]

But I think the fundamental problem is this - the expected pace of development in the industry. If every year you have to demonstrate some new "enhancement" to the bikes you sell, by definition, some of those enhancements are going to suck. Think about the number of enhancements between say 1969 and 1982. Even if as a percentage, some were just as poor, fewer overall made it to market.

i agree.

[oldpotatoe]

Some of you may have read my past frustrations with Cervelo, a company run by smart engineers who make pretty nice bicycles, but can't figure out how to route cables.

Recently I've had a bunch of repairs to do on new Treks. Some highlights:
Rear brake cables routed on the right side of the Madone top tube, so brake housing is twisted at tight angles and rubs the crap out of the headtube paint.
The BB cable guide on Speed Concept bikes that is a flat plate with a single mounting screw - so it pivots when you shift the front derailleur, screwing up the rear shifting.
The same set of Speed Concept bikes have large brake pad mounting bolts on the under-BB mounted rear brake. The right bolt tends to snag the chain when you down shift to the small chainwheel.

In more recent news, Damon Rinard of Cervelo (formerly of Trek) recently finished a set of tests that proved to him that high BB stiffness is completely immaterial to bicycle efficiency. Cervelo sounds like it will be abandoning the PITA BBRight system since it was completely unnecessary in the first place.

Then there's Di2, which stops working on cobblestones because of vibration, so pros can't use it for some races and stages.

And how did a major composite manufacturer not realize that its carbon rims required high temperature epoxy so they didn't delaminate from braking temperatures?


Who is designing bikes these days???? It seems like no one with experience is doing it, and the fact that most large design companies now employee engineers rather than industry apprenticed bike enthusiasts has led to bikes with some of the worst functional problems I've seen in 20 years.

Why does my 1989 Campy bike shift better on its bare chainrings than most modern components? Why is current STI more sensitive and hard to adjust than the first one from the '80s?

I don't think anyone with experience is designing the majority of bicycles these days, and the results are bikes that work great in computer simulations and wind tunnels, but won't function correctly on the road. Much is said about "beta testing" in electronics, but I don't see our industry as much better.

No wonder so many of us are buying handmade bikes built bike people, not recent college graduates.

Why it's called 'being in the trenches'. Bike shops have to put up with all the industry weirdness and when something that's poorly designed, doesn't work, the bike shop are the ones who take it in the shorts.

My employee spent 2 hours stringing cables in a new Niner 29er..internal, *** for?

Customer brought a bike he bought 10 years ago that's broken. Builder won't warranty it.

Spent 2-3 hours mucking with a new Spec-ed tri bikes, plus 2 2012 Spec-ed road bikes...all internal routing...rediculous.

[veloduffer]

The problem here was more due to people who didn't know that dragging their brakes on long descents was a bad idea. All of the carbon rim manufacturers had to redesign the composite material at the brake track for this.

Pros know how to brake (and need them less).

The Pros also ride on closed roads (at least for races) and more importantly, know how to pick a line to follow (except Jan Ullrich who couldn't descend on a line if he was on a bobsled run).:p

[oldpotatoe]

No question you can always find a few failed products, but the equipment that we ride now is better than ANYTHING in the past.

Define 'better'.

[Elefantino]

Why it's called 'being in the trenches'. Bike shops have to put up with all the industry weirdness and when something that's poorly designed, doesn't work, the bike shop are the ones who take it in the shorts.

My employee spent 2 hours stringing cables in a new Niner 29er..internal, *** for?

Customer brought a bike he bought 10 years ago that's broken. Builder won't warranty it.

Spent 2-3 hours mucking with a new Spec-ed tri bikes, plus 2 2012 Spec-ed road bikes...all internal routing...rediculous.
Will someone with a lot more knowledge than me please explain internal routing? Aerodynamics isn't an issue. Aesthetics shouldn't be an issue. So the issue is ...?
:confused:

[veloduffer]

The essence of sports marketing. Cycling is following the golfing industry, which has "innovations" every year (the innovations come every 6 months if it is Taylormade/Adidas). Just substitute the words "straighter" and "farther" with "faster" and "lighter" in the advertisements and they are essentially the same; note, both industries like the term "stiffer".

This marketing driven economics seems to really have dominated the industry since carbon fiber made building bikes and components more cost & time efficient.

I wonder if the retail bike industry will follow the retail golf industry with fit technology. The availability of launch monitors at retail golf shops is becoming more widespread and I could foresee something similar for bike shops to calculate wattage.

In some ways, the custom club builders and small component companies like Wishon Golf are the like NAHBS builders -- a small cadre of experts that those "in the know" will seek out away from the equipment sold to the masses.

[oldpotatoe]

Will someone with a lot more knowledge than me please explain internal routing? Aerodynamics isn't an issue. Aesthetics shouldn't be an issue. So the issue is ...?
:confused:

geee, cuz it's cheaper, of course. drill a hole, screw in a wee cable stop...bigger(not big enough) hole at the BB...couple of holes in the RH stay, another plastic cable stop...cheaper than actually hooking a cable stop onto the outside of the down or(cervelo) top tube.

then the marketeers get ahold of it and ''aerodynamics!!!!"

I read they tested a external routed cable frame in a wind tunnel, then took all the cables and housing off and tested it again....and the result...was the same numbers THEN you put this great big thing called a 'person' on said bicycle....scratch head.

[ultraman6970]

I have nothing against internal routing if its done right. The 1st internal routing bikes were well designed and pretty much you were able to run the cables right away because the tubes were pretty wide but lately for some idiotic reason the tubes to pass through the cables are getting smaller and smaller. So now you cant even run liner or something to help you out.

Sadly, marketing took control of engineering up to some point.

Will someone with a lot more knowledge than me please explain internal routing? Aerodynamics isn't an issue. Aesthetics shouldn't be an issue. So the issue is ...?
:confused:

[e-RICHIE]

In some ways, the custom club builders and small component companies like Wishon Golf are the like NAHBS builders -- a small cadre of experts that those "in the know" will seek out away from the equipment sold to the masses.
I agree and disagree atmo. The sport has always followed and been aligned with the cats at the vanguard.
In the CR era, these always included the framebuilders. Regardless of the changes or why they came about,
the sport uses the parts and brands mentioned in the OP. I get the money issue. But if the goods were that
bad that a wholesale change was needed, I doubt we'd see folks racing on Cervelos, Treks, and similar.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool::cool::cool:
:cool::cool::cool:
:cool::cool::p

[Grant McLean]

The problem here was more due to people who didn't know that dragging their brakes on long descents was a bad idea.

along these lines, an issue for the manufacturers these days is that
they sell the same equipment to amateurs as they supply to professional
racers. who would buy a nascar or F1 car to drive on the street?
If you do, don't complain about how it uses a lot of gas.

There are plenty of designs that are perfectly acceptable for professional racing
(internal cable routing comes to mind) that have justification for the Fabian's
of the world, that make no sense for the recreational rider.
The fact that the market seems to want to use what the pros use is to me
the larger issue.

-g

[TAW]

I'm not a huge fan of internal cable routing, but I would have to admit that it looks cleaner, and a whole lot better than the brake cables sticking up in the air on bikes "back in the day."

Look, while there's no doubt that bikes have "innovations" which don't work so well (such as the Trek TT bike with the cable routing plate on the bottom that moves) the answer is not the "good old days." I've seen bikes in our shop from the revered builders on this forum which have quality control issues and which exhibit significant flaws. The Trek/Specialized/Giant ones are magnified because there are more of them. Technology comes in incremental gains, not in huge leaps. We didn't go from a 26 pound bike to a 15 pound bike in 1 year, there were incremental gains, which led to other gains, which eventually get us to where we are. Were there and have there always been hiccups? Sure. Haven't there always been those things which were considered innovations which eventually died on their own because they didn't work? Yes. But let's not throw everything under the bus because we get a bad apple or two. And let's again not assume that "smaller is better." Not all big bike companies are the "evil empire."

[oldpotatoe]

The essence of sports marketing. Cycling is following the golfing industry, which has "innovations" every year (the innovations come every 6 months if it is Taylormade/Adidas). Just substitute the words "straighter" and "farther" with "faster" and "lighter" in the advertisements and they are essentially the same; note, both industries like the term "stiffer".

This marketing driven economics seems to really have dominated the industry since carbon fiber made building bikes and components more cost & time efficient.

I wonder if the retail bike industry will follow the retail golf industry with fit technology. The availability of launch monitors at retail golf shops is becoming more widespread and I could foresee something similar for bike shops to calculate wattage.

In some ways, the custom club builders and small component companies like Wishon Golf are the like NAHBS builders -- a small cadre of experts that those "in the know" will seek out away from the equipment sold to the masses.

Already happening..fit bike hooked up to a power meter, changing the position and viola..look at that power increase!!

[e-RICHIE]

<cut> And let's again not assume that "smaller is better." Not all big bike companies are the "evil empire."

^ gets it atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool::cool::cool:
;););)
:):):)

[harryschwartzma]

As a professional working within the bike industry, I can assure you that there are few amateurs working with me. At the headquarters of a major cycling company, every desk has a mtn bike and a road bike parked next to it. To say that people in big companies are not passionate about cycling is just plain wrong.

This game is too competitive, and, relative to executive compensation in other industries, too low paying to attract non-cycling types.

Now the rush to show constant growth is a cancer, for sure, but the cycling industry is only following the lead (and investment dollars) of big business in America in general. As long as companies have to spend R&D money, this will be the case.

Trust me - as long as there have been bikes, there have been enthusiasts bitching about them. All due respect to the boutique ferrous framebuilders out there, but what they do is a refinement of years of mistakes - the R&D was done generations ago.

The cutting edge - for better or worse- is carbon (lighter, stronger, cheaper FASTER), and a mass market company that employs hundreds of Americans isn't going to keep them employed churning out a classic bike. (full disclosure - I'm currently having a steel bike built for me by a framebuilder with a minuscule output).

Even in the days when steel was real and the only choice, most large companies made their bread and butter putting out bikes that we - as enthusiasts- would have turned our nose up at. Not every 70s bike is a Masi.

Do big companies make mistakes? Yes. Do they rush stuff to production? Yes. Do we need them? YES. We built this monster because we want the cutting edge.

[Black Dog]

Di2 problems on cobbles shoulda been discovered by the pro team testers.

I thought the Di2 problem on the cobbles was the light pressure needed to shift was causing accidental shifts over the bumps from fingers hitting the buttons.

I am not a Di2 apologist but I do not think they were shifting randomly because of bumps.

[Kontact]

As a professional working within the bike industry, I can assure you that there are few amateurs working with me. At the headquarters of a major cycling company, every desk has a mtn bike and a road bike parked next to it. To say that people in big companies are not passionate about cycling is just plain wrong.

I absolutely did not say that bike industry people lacked passion or didn't ride. Please reread the OP. I said that many of the people designing bikes lack experience in the common sense nature of bike design, and it shows - constantly. That's amateurish.

All Trek needed to do was hire a few bike mechanics (who are even cheaper than 25 year old engineers) and have them on staff to help the "smart" people figure out where cable stops are supposed to go.


On the Cervelo S5 it is currently impossible to replace one derailleur cable without loosening the other derailleur cable, and the BB guide you have to remove to do it has to be pried out against the frame paint because there is no place for a tool to be inserted. Yet other internal bikes are comparably easy. It's like everyone is working in a vacuum where they can't see other companies products or even their own history.

[oldpotatoe]

As a professional working within the bike industry, I can assure you that there are few amateurs working with me. At the headquarters of a major cycling company, every desk has a mtn bike and a road bike parked next to it. To say that people in big companies are not passionate about cycling is just plain wrong.

This game is too competitive, and, relative to executive compensation in other industries, too low paying to attract non-cycling types.

Now the rush to show constant growth is a cancer, for sure, but the cycling industry is only following the lead (and investment dollars) of big business in America in general. As long as companies have to spend R&D money, this will be the case.

Trust me - as long as there have been bikes, there have been enthusiasts bitching about them. All due respect to the boutique ferrous framebuilders out there, but what they do is a refinement of years of mistakes - the R&D was done generations ago.

The cutting edge - for better or worse- is carbon (lighter, stronger, cheaper FASTER), and a mass market company that employs hundreds of Americans isn't going to keep them employed churning out a classic bike. (full disclosure - I'm currently having a steel bike built for me by a framebuilder with a minuscule output).

Even in the days when steel was real and the only choice, most large companies made their bread and butter putting out bikes that we - as enthusiasts- would have turned our nose up at. Not every 70s bike is a Masi.

Do big companies make mistakes? Yes. Do they rush stuff to production? Yes. Do we need them? YES. We built this monster because we want the cutting edge.

OK, as a 'professional working w/i the bicycle industry', what do ya suppose Niner was thinking making the der cables internal to this frame?

BTW-WRT Carbon-lighter-yep, stronger-in some cases, weaker in others. Cheaper-no doubt-THE motivator. 'FASTER'-are you in marketing?

"This game is too competitive, and, relative to executive compensation in other industries, too low paying to attract non-cycling types. "

Well, I think that's part of the 'problem'. This business needs business people, not cyclists. Maybe business people that ride a bike but not the typical 'cyclist, former bike racer type...who many 'assume' will make smart business decisions.

[oldpotatoe]

I absolutely did not say that bike industry people lacked passion or didn't ride. Please reread the OP. I said that many of the people designing bikes lack experience in the common sense nature of bike design, and it shows - constantly. That's amateurish.

All Trek needed to do was hire a few bike mechanics (who are even cheaper than 25 year old engineers) and have them on staff to help the "smart" people figure out where cable stops are supposed to go.


On the Cervelo S5 it is currently impossible to replace one derailleur cable without loosening the other derailleur cable, and the BB guide you have to remove to do it has to be pried out against the frame paint because there is no place for a tool to be inserted. Yet other internal bikes are comparably easy. It's like everyone is working in a vacuum where they can't see other companies products or even their own history.

Why, in the USN and other industires, there is 'developmental test(engineers, including test pilot school grads) and 'operational test(fleet maintainers and aviators)....

wish niner actually had a wrench put this thing together first. Bolt on FD, like into the frame with 5mm bolts. NO adjustment in terms of alignment and inward travel..and yes, it hits the frame before the chain goes to the small ring.

[harryschwartzma]

Fair enough. I re-read your OP.

I don't know anything about Cervelos. I don't own one, nor have I ever worked for their dealers. I've seen plenty of dumb things (on the practical level) on production bikes and on custom bikes, so I don't doubt your experience at all.

But that said, I think this thread - as many on the forum - has turned into a 'small bike builders are better/more soulful than big companies' type argument. And I don't think that's true.

Just a question, but have you read the manual that comes with the bike? Do they address this issue and provide a work-around? I can tell you that I have been guilty of 'pick up a tool before the manual' many times. Do you really think they didn't build up at least one prototype before introducing the bike?

[harryschwartzma]

And its not like internal cable routing is ineffective. I've had many bikes with internal routing with no problems.

Also the 'FASTER' bit was sarcastic. I don't think carbon makes you faster, though I think some do.

( My road bikes are a Fuso and a Greg Lemond TSX - and I'm fast enough on them)

[Earl Gray]

Define 'better'.

bet·ter    adjective, 1. of superior quality or excellence:


Cir-cle-jerk 1. A group discussion or activity between like-minded individuals that validates mutual biases or goals in a non-confrontational environment.

[jlwdm]

.....

I wonder if the retail bike industry will follow the retail golf industry with fit technology. The availability of launch monitors at retail golf shops is becoming more widespread and I could foresee something similar for bike shops to calculate wattage.

......

It has already happened with fit technology. Check out Faster - Wind Tunnel, Retail and Cycling Performance Center on Facebook. Paraic and his partner are taking bike fit etc to a new level. The person doing the high speed camera work came from the golf industry. Amazing camera work and tied to wattage.

Any cyclist visiting Scottsdale should check it out.

Having better equipment in more shops will happen but you still need a great fitter like Paraic. Just like fit systems which are only tools not absolutes. The same in golf. Launch monitors everywhere but you still need a great fitter like Mark at Cool Clubs.

Jeff

[oldpotatoe]

bet·ter    adjective, 1. of superior quality or excellence:

Subjective. The 2012 'standard set', like a spec-ed Venga isn't better in all respects to a 90s, metal, bicycle. Better marketed, for sure. Superior quality? Don think so. But like a guy at a 'major bicycle manufacturer' once said, lighter isn't better, just lighter.

Lever mounted shifting, clipless pedals, innovations in bicycle fit, some of the true improvements to cycle gear, but those are over 2 decades old.

IMHO.

[harryschwartzma]

If you define 'quality' as 'one dude making a bike at a time and making it perfect' then you're correct. If you define quality as 'Big Company X' going to China and making a **** ton of pretty damned good bikes, then quality has gone up.

When you talk about the 'bike industry' its about meat and potato bikes, not high end, full zoot stuff which a fraction of what 'The Industry' produces.

For the most parts bikes are an industrial product and always have been. The artisan element is nice, but not necessary. Just ask Ernesto.

[bobswire]

Interesting thread, this has become my "state of the art" go to bike. 80's Jeff Richman frame,Suntour friction shifters and Dia-Compe 987 brakes.
I still maintain a more serious modern Campagnolo built up bike but this guy is just a blast to ride and easy to work on.


http://i44.tinypic.com/29xapf9.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

Fair enough. I re-read your OP.

I don't know anything about Cervelos. I don't own one, nor have I ever worked for their dealers. I've seen plenty of dumb things (on the practical level) on production bikes and on custom bikes, so I don't doubt your experience at all.

But that said, I think this thread - as many on the forum - has turned into a 'small bike builders are better/more soulful than big companies' type argument. And I don't think that's true.

Just a question, but have you read the manual that comes with the bike? Do they address this issue and provide a work-around? I can tell you that I have been guilty of 'pick up a tool before the manual' many times. Do you really think they didn't build up at least one prototype before introducing the bike?

Frame and box o' parts brought to us, all new..no manuals..maybe a call to Niner about the FD...clearly doesn't go in far enough. XTR crank, cannot make it go outboard any mo'.

[Elefantino]

This means nothing, really:

I just traded this:

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l84/gmmtwo/Roubaix1.jpg

for this:

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l84/gmmtwo/036a78ba.jpg

and I have to say that after a couple of rides, certainly not a long-term test but enough for the butt receptors to know, that I like the latter's ride better.

Reverse progress.

[oldpotatoe]

bet·ter    adjective, 1. of superior quality or excellence:


Cir-cle-jerk 1. A group discussion or activity between like-minded individuals that validates mutual biases or goals in a non-confrontational environment.

IG-NORE

transitive verb
1
: to refuse to take notice of

like a thread you don't agree with.

dis·cus·sion noun \di-ˈskə-shən\
1
: consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate

[harryschwartzma]

Frame and box o' parts brought to us, all new..no manuals..maybe a call to Niner about the FD...clearly doesn't go in far enough. XTR crank, cannot make it go outboard any mo'.

http://www.alltradetools.com/catalog/832-857-large/840109-6-bench-grinder.jpg

Just like the old days when this was the specialized tool you needed to 'adjust' a front derailleur cage:

http://www.flatheadscrewdriver.org/images/flat_head_screwdriver.png

[oldpotatoe]

http://www.alltradetools.com/catalog/832-857-large/840109-6-bench-grinder.jpg

Just like the old days when this was the specialized tool you needed to 'adjust' a front derailleur cage:

http://www.flatheadscrewdriver.org/images/flat_head_screwdriver.png

Can't do that. Frame is carbon(no denting please) and FD is bolted to the frame, 'new' direct mount system, replacing C Clamp types since the BB is PF BB30(another brillant idea). No seatube per-say to bolt the thing to. Scallope portion on the frame for the FD inward travel but the aft hinge of the FD hits the frame aft of the scallope...yikes. Alignment of the FD clearly tail in...a lot.

[goonster]

Who is designing bikes these days???? It seems like no one with experience is doing it, and the fact that most large design companies now employee engineers rather than industry apprenticed bike enthusiasts has led to bikes with some of the worst functional problems I've seen in 20 years.

No wonder so many of us are buying handmade bikes built bike people, not recent college graduates.

Are you asking, or are you telling?

I agree with most of your rant, but are you not jumping to conclusions with regard to who is to blame for the bad designs? Do you know for sure that the shots are being called by recent Mech.E. grads?

Christian has it right: the marketing drives everything, and this results in an environment where nobody asks whether it makes any sense to have all that internal routing. The auto industry is marketing driven too, but the stakes are higher, and the pushback for failure much greater. In the bike biz, someone will just tell you that it's your own fault for being overweight, or insufficiently PRO.

[dsb]

All Trek needed to do was hire a few bike mechanics (who are even cheaper than 25 year old engineers) and have them on staff to help the "smart" people figure out where cable stops are supposed to go.


This is something that people who work on stuff have been saying forever...

But, it's far from unique to the bike industry...

Challenger anyone?

What about the aluminum electrical connectors of the F4?

Or, how about the symmetrical titanium hydraulic lines on the prototype F-14?

The 1st VW Passats with 4cyl engines you couldn't reach the oil filter from the top or the bottom without disassembling a lot of the car...

On the first GP framed Husqvarna dirt bikes, at the bottom of the kick start stroke your toes slammed into the footpeg...

Ever tried to replace the starter on a Renault Le Car?

When Volvo had a camshaft recall on v-6 cars, you had to drill holes in the firewall to get the cams out...

It seems a shame that such an elegantly simple machine should fall victim to this kind of stuff, but it would seem inevitable...

[AngryScientist]

eh, another rant.

i ride with a fairly large bike club. i also see hundreds of cyclists on the road on very new carbon bikes. they all seem to be working - things cant be that bad.

[Ti Designs]

Trust me

There's an old yiddish joke about what that really means...

[Chance]

I agree with most of your rant, but are you not jumping to conclusions with regard to who is to blame for the bad designs? Do you know for sure that the shots are being called by recent Mech.E. grads?


Can’t see how most bike companies today can employ many degreed engineers at all, and when they do, it’s not likely the ones at the top of their game. They can’t pay enough to go after the guys who end up working for companies like Caterpillar, Exxon, IBM, and so on where their design work has so much more significance to the bottom line in absolute dollars that “errors” of the type discussed here would justify people of higher quality. Opportunity for career growth for guys with a lot of talent and potential is just not there either. This also means very little mentoring and on-the-job training for the young guys. To put it in perspective, there are a lot of companies in the US that sell more product in one day than most bike companies in an entire year, if not in a life time. The total dollars of bikes sold by a Serotta or Calfee are tiny by large industry standards. Don't want to imply that their engineers suck but hiring a young guy without experience and then not having other engineers around to develop his skills will likely lead to a lot of problems like the ones mentioned above. This kind of stuff will happen anyway, but bike frames are not all that involved after all. They shouldn't happen as often as stated here.

So while Kontact’s OP is mostly another rant against engineers, there is some truth to the “amateur” status of the industry when compared to larger industries driven by technology; at least when viewed from an engineering standpoint. Just my opinion.

[Elefantino]

eh, another rant.

i ride with a fairly large bike club. i also see hundreds of cyclists on the road on very new carbon bikes. they all seem to be working - things cant be that bad.
No, they're not bad at all. Rather nice, actually.

It's just that they not necessarily better for everyone.

[goonster]

Can’t see how most bike companies today can employ many degreed engineers at all
This has been Jobst Brandt's argument since . . ., ahem, a very long time.

[Vinci]

Can you really blame the big builders for making things more complicated and playing to trends? There are only so many things that a bike frame needs to do, and those basics have been ironed out a long time ago. If they don't do something different and try make something better (perceived or otherwise), then there is no reason for you to buy their bike over their competitor's.

[goonster]

Can you really blame the big builders for making things more complicated and playing to trends?
As a shareholder, no.

As a customer or independent mechanic, heck yes.

[deechee]

In more recent news, Damon Rinard of Cervelo (formerly of Trek) recently finished a set of tests that proved to him that high BB stiffness is completely immaterial to bicycle efficiency. Cervelo sounds like it will be abandoning the PITA BBRight system since it was completely unnecessary in the first place.


I'm not trying to question you, I'd like to read more about this. Can you add some references here? Thanks.

[Chance]

This has been Jobst Brandt's argument since . . ., ahem, a very long time.

It would be interesting to know how many mechanical engineers Cervelo has on staff. Large companies like Trek and Cannondale have a limited number, but smaller companies probably none or part time guys. Unless the owner happens to be an engineer who started a bike company. There are a few of them.

[Chance]

I am suggesting that routing a rear brake cable on the right side of the head tube is just plain ignorant, and anyone who had been around bikes for a long time wouldn't have done it or approved it for production.


This does seem strange. Was wondering if the detail design could have been done in Asia where mirror-image of caliper brakes are more common than they are here. If so having the cable on the wrong side would make sense (although still a mistake for US import).

[Kontact]

Just a question, but have you read the manual that comes with the bike? Do they address this issue and provide a work-around? I can tell you that I have been guilty of 'pick up a tool before the manual' many times. Do you really think they didn't build up at least one prototype before introducing the bike?

I have to ask - do you really work in the bike industry? The manuals that come with production bikes are usually brand manuals, not even specific to road or mountain, let alone model. They are simple consumer pamphlets containing legally mandated safety and warranty information.

Seven includes instructions for its weird internal routing, and several makers post routing instructions online. I have never seen a "work around" - most makers believe that their bikes will work as designed.



I've worked in this industry off and on since the late '80s - when STI, one piece carbon frames, internal routing and excellent quality Taiwanese frames were all well established. It isn't like there is anything fundamentally new going on with bikes, custom or production, that should warrant the problems mechanics deal with daily.


And this thread isn't about ranting against engineers, a pro-custom builder circle jerk or anything else that some of you are assuming (because you don't like me). This is purely about experience and history, and how even education is not a substitute.

[HenryA]

I'm pretty sure you don't have to have a M.E. degree to route a bicycle cable in a way that allows it to function properly. Or a passel of other little details that anyone with a smidgen of mechanical aptitude could address.

Production has to happen on schedule and everyone has to hit their numbers. And that is the bottom line. Anyway, once the new colors and graphics are all correct the job is done isn't it? Then its back to the Xbox and cruising the net.

The good news is that as long as the big guys keep doing it this way there will be a bright spot of hope for the small builders of the world. Which is where your bike money needs to go anyway.

[Kontact]

I'm not trying to question you, I'd like to read more about this. Can you add some references here? Thanks.

It was something he said to my boss at Brainbike this year. They've known each other for years.

[CaptStash]

First with the Lucas Electrics and now with the Yiddish? What are you the new Jerry Seinfeld of the cycling coach world?

CaptStash....


There's an old yiddish joke about what that really means...

[FixedNotBroken]

First with the Lucas Electrics and now with the Yiddish? What are you the new Jerry Seinfeld of the cycling coach world?

CaptStash....

+1 Saul..

[nightfend]

Internal cable routing on mountain bikes, while a pain to setup are really nice if things get muddy and wet. The fact that you don't have to worry about cable contamination is a huge bonus. Same with cross bikes and internal routing.

I have my own grievances with Cervelo engineering. I trashed a perfectly good Cervelo P3 time trial frame when I broke off the integrated rear derailleur hanger. Turns out Cervelo in their infinite wisdom decided to NOT make the rear derailleur hanger on their time trial bikes replaceable.

[GRAVELBIKE]

Why, in the USN and other industires, there is 'developmental test(engineers, including test pilot school grads) and 'operational test(fleet maintainers and aviators)....

wish niner actually had a wrench put this thing together first. Bolt on FD, like into the frame with 5mm bolts. NO adjustment in terms of alignment and inward travel..and yes, it hits the frame before the chain goes to the small ring.

And in my industry, we have the OOBE test. OOBE stands for Out Of Box Experience. Everything is evaluated, including the obligatory READ ME FIRST sheet of paper. It's amazing how many problems the OOBE can uncover. I still remember being asked why I didn't configure a product "the correct way" after I had reported a failure. It turns out that "the correct way" wasn't documented anywhere in the setup guide/READ ME FIRST.

[palincss]

along these lines, an issue for the manufacturers these days is that they sell the same equipment to amateurs as they supply to professional racers. who would buy a nascar or F1 car to drive on the street?
If you do, don't complain about how it uses a lot of gas.

There are plenty of designs that are perfectly acceptable for professional racing
(internal cable routing comes to mind) that have justification for the Fabian's
of the world, that make no sense for the recreational rider. The fact that the market seems to want to use what the pros use is to me the larger issue.

-g

I completely agree with you. The use cases are very different, and the riders are very different: different skill levels, body types, ages, fitness levels, weight, power output, different goals. For many recreational riders, you ride a bike to improve fitness, you don't undertake a program to improve fitness so you can ride your bike. (However, I do not agree with some who appear to me to be saying those old, fat, unfit ought to just go get on their hybrids and pootle along on the bike paths, and leave real bicycles for the "beautiful people.")

[Kontact]

I completely agree with you. The use cases are very different, and the riders are very different: different skill levels, body types, ages, fitness levels, weight, power output, different goals. For many recreational riders, you ride a bike to improve fitness, you don't undertake a program to improve fitness so you can ride your bike. (However, I do not agree with some who appear to me to be saying those old, fat, unfit ought to just go get on their hybrids and pootle along on the bike paths, and leave real bicycles for the "beautiful people.")

I don't think racing bicycles built for thousand mile stage races are nearly as specialized as a comparison to an F1 car would suggest. A track pursuit bike might be a better comparison, since that is not made for general road use. A road bicycle is most similar to a street legal sports car, and just as generally useful - fun to drive long or short distances, and not built for luggage.

Anyway, internal cables are not hard to do. They have been around since at least the '70s. The fact that current companies have such trouble getting them right is the reason for the thread, not that they are intrinsically difficult.

[FixedNotBroken]

I don't think racing bicycles built for thousand mile stage races are nearly as specialized as a comparison to an F1 car would suggest. A track pursuit bike might be a better comparison, since that is not made for general road use. A road bicycle is most similar to a street legal sports car, and just as generally useful - fun to drive long or short distances, and not built for luggage.

Anyway, internal cables are not hard to do. They have been around since at least the '70s. The fact that current companies have such trouble getting them right is the reason for the thread, not that they are intrinsically difficult.

There must be something right about them due to sales..I haven't come across any of these problems you've mentioned and I've owned 3 Cervelo's. Does it just depend on every frame?

[Kontact]

There must be something right about them due to sales..I haven't come across any of these problems you've mentioned and I've owned 3 Cervelo's. Does it just depend on every frame?

No, it depends on the year and model. Did you have an S3 with the downtube window that moves in the frame? Have you changed the cables in an S5?

[Frankwurst]

Interesting thread, this has become my "state of the art" go to bike. 80's Jeff Richman frame,Suntour friction shifters and Dia-Compe 987 brakes.
I still maintain a more serious modern Campagnolo built up bike but this guy is just a blast to ride and easy to work on.


http://i44.tinypic.com/29xapf9.jpg

I am curious. What are these things of which you refer to as friction shifters? I am assuming they are somehow better than the current shifters available. Perhaps for certain given applications. No? :beer: