Would You Pay $50 For A Hurricane Relief Jersy?

[Bill Bove]

I was talking to some reps about doing a hurricane relief jersey last night, then I thought "I have too many jerseys, I don't need to get something for doing what I should do anyway" So I just tossed the 50 into the can at the bank.
1.800.HELP NOW

[Tom]

A local grocery store is matching up to a total of $50k and my company is doing a matching thing. I figure I'll hit the two of them and start there.

[Climb01742]

isn't relief aid what we have a government for? isn't the national guards' true purpose to help provide domestic help in emergencies, not comprise 40% of an army? i never b*tch about my taxes because i believe, as a country, we need roads, schools, hospitals, and federal agencies to bring water, food, clothes and shelter to people in need. yes, private aid is great, but it shouldn't, IMO, be a substitute for governmental aid. in a civilized, humane society, isn't aiding the people one of the primary purposes of a government? what is happening in the aftermath of the hurricane is, i think, a manifestation of our skewed national priorities. and maybe i'm just a pinko cynic, but a skewed focus on the news about 1 or 2% of looters and thugs vs 98% of poor people suffering without aid is an attempt to change the subject, from a failure of government to aid mostly poor victims, to a story about a few criminal thugs.

[Ray]

I fully agree that private aid shouldn't be a substitute for government action. But every now and then a catastrophe hits that's so bad and so over the top that you need to attack it from EVERY conceivable angle. The government has a HUGE job to do on this one and history will judge how well it does it. But I think private aid is also going to be hugely important in getting the folks in NO and the other affected areas through this. From giving money for food and day to day stuff, to helping to organize local efforts, to putting evacuated families up in private homes, this is too big for any single approach to do the job.

And I think you're dead on about the press's emphasis on looters rather than the number of people who are suffering beyond belief.

-Ray

[Tom]

but you're absolutely right. Also, we don't do squat about anything until its a crisis. We've known for years (John McPhee, 1989, "The Control of Nature") what was coming but do we do anything? Heck, no. We've got better places to pork barrel our money than that.

[TimB]

Climb -

I'm also with you on this one. Our priorities are so out of whack.

Another example: Every year we get hit up by out local 'volunteer' fire company for donations. They want to buy a new truck, or just cover their operating budget - which the county pays only 50%. Now, we have a brand-new $100 MILLION concert hall built with county funds, but not enough money to fund the EXACT fire company that would respond if this facility caught fire? Go figure.

TB

[BdaGhisallo]

Climb,

The focus on the looting is important for a few reasons. For one, you must restore law and order so that relief efforts are not hampered, as they currently are, and that the innocent 98% of victims are not endangered even further. Secondly, it is important for future disasters. When the government, be it local, state or federal, invokes a mandatory evacuation order, there is an implicit compact that they will protect your property in your enforced absence. People can plainly see that this is not happening in NO at the moment. Granted, there are many more important things than the outright protection of property. The US has long valued life over property, and rightly so. But all of this plays in the mindset of folks that might arise in the future and citizens might be less willing to evacuate in future disasters, imperilling them further and leading to a greater possibility of mass deaths.

This is a mass catastrophe and the response so far could be much better, but let's not be too harsh on the government at this point. This disaster is truly unprecedented - not unanticipated mind you. People have been warning of just this scenario for years. The NO paper did a huge series of articles on this three years ago and issued doom-filled warnings. Unfortunately, as with everything in life, cost-benefit analysis is performed in regard to what to outright prepare and position for. Sadly, we can't position relief and forces for every storm. We don't have the resources and the cost would be absolutely debilitating. We play the odds as we do with all aspects of human existance, seen or unseen.

Having said all that, they had better get moving and start airlifting in supplies and water and getting those people some relief. If the situation hasn't changed much in the next two days, there will be hell to pay at all levels of government!

[jpw]

isn't relief aid what we have a government for? isn't the national guards' true purpose to help provide domestic help in emergencies, not comprise 40% of an army? i never b*tch about my taxes because i believe, as a country, we need roads, schools, hospitals, and federal agencies to bring water, food, clothes and shelter to people in need. yes, private aid is great, but it shouldn't, IMO, be a substitute for governmental aid. in a civilized, human society, isn't aiding the people one of the primary purposes of a government? what is happening in the aftermath of the hurricane is, i think, a manifestation of our skewed national priorities. and maybe i'm just a pinko cynic, but a skewed focus on the news about 1 or 2% of looters and thugs vs 98% of poor people suffering without aid is an attempt to change the subject, from a failure of government to aid mostly poor victims, to a story about a few criminal thugs.

...is America a civilised, human (humane?) society? Every news report about New Orleans that I have seen seems to be highlighting the plight of Americans of African ethnic origin. It's as if Eurasians have never lived in N.O.

[TimB]

New Orleans is predominantly Aftrican-American in population. See: http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFFacts?_event=Search&geo_id=&_geoContext=&_street=&_county=new+orleans&_cityTown=new+orleans&_state=&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010


Also has a poverty rate of about 27% overall...much higher than the national average.

[kenyee]

Sadly, we can't position relief and forces for every storm.

The media's "theme" today seems to be "why isn't aid being sent faster?" and "we feel safe w/ the survivors".

Ummm...because it takes time to mobilize (and the mayor of NO did tell everyone to get out)? And you're not wearing police/army uniforms so the survivors aren't ticked off at you?

I was watching the news before the hurricane hit and wondered why in the world anyone would build a city below sea level on the coast?

Everything could have been done better, but that's the benefit of hindsight...

[Fixed]

Bro ,I am goin down to N.O. or Miss.this A.M. with some firefighters I know to be a messenger I am going to be riding a singlespeed mt. bike I feel like I need to do something for my bros. I'll be back Tuesday Cheers :beer:

[Argos]

We'd have the money in the coffers if we didn't go into Iraq fraudulently.

Oops, was that too pointed?

Climb, I'm with you. They can't have it both ways.

[Dekonick]

It is a huge task to mobilize after a disaster of this magnitute strikes. FEMA and associated agencies are doing their utmost to mitigate the situation in NO and LA in general. Give 'em a chance! A rapid response still needs to be organized or you end up with chaos. Have any of you ever organized a bike race? Imagine that only without power, communications, transportation, etc and multiply it 100 fold.

What horrors wait to still be discovered - I shudder at the thought.

It is going to be a terrible undertaking to go house to house when the water levels drop - I wonder how many will be found in attics. As far as looting I can understand the need for food, clothing, and other essentials but TV's?

Again - I also wonder at the logic of building (especially re-building) below sea level when sitting at the gulf's front door.

Fixed, good luck - be safe!

[JohnS]

Climb, actually, the NG does both. The majority of NG troops are just unskilled manpower and looter-prevention. Right now, they need a bunch of combat engineer units with heavy equipment, and they're spread pretty thin.
On a side note, I hope that the people of southern AL and MS aren't getting shortchanged because of the media emphasis on NO. With a little help, they could be up-and-running before NO is even dried out.

[Climb01742]

since 9/11, homeland security has -- in theory -- been creating plans for helping tens of thousands of victims, in an urban area, recover from a disaster. responding to a large-scale unexpected catastrophe -- from a range of causes -- in an urban area has to be high, if not first, on the to-do list of homeland security. apparently, they haven't been planning very well. the argument -- who could have planned for this? -- is, i believe, flawed. is this EXACTLY what homeland security should a have a plan in place for, no?

[JohnS]

I disagree. NO is unique. In other areas, the water flooded in and then receded. Cleanup could begin almost immediately. NO is still flooded. It takes a while just to get the raw material (rocks, etc) there, let alone the specialized heavy equipment.

[Climb01742]

johns, but why is it taking so long to get water, food, and medical help to people, like those outside of the convention center last night? agree that clean-up is a unique challenge, but immediate human aid is universal, i think.

[chrisroph]

Its a much bigger disaster than anyone anticipated and the government is not doing enough. If there is any little thing we can do to help, lets do it guys. I'm donating some $$ to the relief effort. Fixed, good for you for disrupting your life to help.

[Bill Bove]

It's not really about the clean up but about the evacuation of the survivors, how is this different from a small nuke going off? That IS within the pervue of Homeland Security.

[JohnS]

johns, but why is it taking so long to get water, food, and medical help to people, like those outside of the convention center last night? agree that clean-up is a unique challenge, but immediate human aid is universal, i think.
I don't know, but here's my guess. Many of the emergency workers and supplies were probably located IN NO. If you're homeless yourself, you think about your own family. It wasn't only homes ruined, but businesses, also. The local food warehouses were inundated. The local water treatment plant, too. The hospitals had to be evacuated. No help could be given from anywhere east due both to their own damage and the cutting of I-10. Helicopters have very limited lifting capacity. A 3000lb payload is less than 400gal of water.

[William]

since 9/11, homeland security has -- in theory -- been creating plans for helping tens of thousands of victims, in an urban area, recover from a disaster. responding to a large-scale unexpected catastrophe -- from a range of causes -- in an urban area has to be high, if not first, on the to-do list of homeland security. apparently, they haven't been planning very well. the argument -- who could have planned for this? -- is, i believe, flawed. is this EXACTLY what homeland security should a have a plan in place for, no?
Since we are heading down the politico path...

This was part of my point in the other NO thread:
Money has been diverted the last X number of years that was ear marked for levee strengthening, pump houses has been diverted to homeland security and the Iraq war. As climb points out, what has that done for preperations for mass disaster? Even past heads of FEMA and other disaster realated organizations are questioning the response....or better put, lack of response.

William

[Dekonick]

since 9/11, homeland security has -- in theory -- been creating plans for helping tens of thousands of victims, in an urban area, recover from a disaster. responding to a large-scale unexpected catastrophe -- from a range of causes -- in an urban area has to be high, if not first, on the to-do list of homeland security. apparently, they haven't been planning very well. the argument -- who could have planned for this? -- is, i believe, flawed. is this EXACTLY what homeland security should a have a plan in place for, no?

Climb - you are wrong on this one. Homeland security (including FEMA etc) do have plans to mobilize vast resources in a timely fashion. The problem here is that NO is below sea level! You can't fix that. It is a major projext to build a levy - it can take years. It is more difficult to repair a levy that has failed.

Someone told me yesterday that the guided tours of NO actually would kinda brag about how NO is 'at huge risk' because it is below sea level etc...

Well - now we know.

This mess was predictable - and even though it was inevitable, the best plans would still result in a city under water eventually. The Netherlands suffered a similar fate in the 50's and they are not in hurricaine alley. Even today, the Netherlands only has 3 walls between dry land and salty, cold north sea water. Even with their magnificant moving sea wall they are always at some risk. NO also runs the risk (as we know) of becoming a salt water lake. I doubt any man made structure could prevent a cat 5 storm from causing havoc - even structures made to withstand the worst of the worst fail. (as seen with that oil platform torn from its anchorage)

Blame whomever you want to blame for the storms - policy, politicians, planatary changes, God, terrorists, war- nothing changes that NO desperately wants to be a lake and eventually nature will (and did) oblige.

What a mess this has become!

Bad enough for the rest of LA that was hit hard - we have to send massive resources to save a city that was destined to be destroyed.

From a search and rescue perspective this is a logistical nightmare - clean-up will be even worse. The only winners here are the mosquito's. :(

Let's hope and pray the survivors can be helped - and let's not make the mistake of re-building another disaster in waiting. (we will...however...do just that...)

To the rescuers - I salute you.
To the victims - I pray for you
To the unethical bast@rds that allowed this to happen - shame on you! (including big oil!)

I rant - must need coffee...must get coffee...must....

[JohnS]

Since we are heading down the politico path...

This was part of my point in the other NO thread:
Money has been diverted the last X number of years that was ear marked for levee strengthening, pump houses has been diverted to homeland security and the Iraq war. As climb points out, what has that done for preperations for mass disaster? Even past heads of FEMA and other disaster realated organizations are questioning the response....or better put, lack of response.

William
By your other post, the project wasn't scheduled to be completed before 2018 anyways. How can you claim that the specific money was diverted to the war effort. Besides, as stated elsewhere, the levees weren't meant to protect from a hurricane, but from the Mississippi.
I'm sure that a major part of the evacuation plan involved using NO's buses. Well, that's a nonstarter.

[William]

By your other post, the project wasn't scheduled to be completed before 2018 anyways.

The Army Corp cited the continual lack of funds which each year pushed completion dates back. I'm not saying they would have had anything completed before this storm hit, just that it has been a re-occuring theme cited by the NO city council & the Army Corp of Engineers z9touched on already by some previous posters).

William

[chrisroph]

Read "The Control of Nature" by John McPhee. It discusses, among other things, the battle to control the lower Mississippi. Its a great read, now timely, given the situation in NO.

[MartyE]

A few points.
There was a news report yesterday that interviewed an ex
FEMA official. They did specific studies and simulation of this exact
event (Hurricane and NO flooded) last year. Why were they so
unprepared?
Where were the Buses to evacuate the people BEFORE Katrina hit?
The National and local Gov'ts could have mobilized prior to
Katrina ever making landfall.
I agree that the rest of La. and Mi. have not been getting 1/2 the
coverage they should. Entire towns have been swept away. Sure
they are not flooded now, but the residents are also homeless also have no
food water medicine etc. It's not just New Orleans that is in trouble.

marty

[JohnS]

I am constantly amused by the American public who always has to assign blame to everything. Sometimes, no one is to blame. Sh*t happens! Ever heard that before?
It seems that Dekonick is the only one that understands that this entire operation depends on PEOPLE. People who have other jobs. People who are worried about their own families. People who have to travel several hundred miles. FEMA doesn't have a 10,000 man disaster relief force sitting somewhere out in the boonies, twiddling their thumbs, waiting for the big call. It's calling up electric utilities and asking them how many line trucks they can spare. It's asking local EMS and fire departments if they can spare a unit or two. It's diverting semitrucks from more profitable private hauls. It's airfreight companies breaking existing contracts and diverting planes.

[Climb01742]

I am constantly amused by the American public who always has to assign blame to everything. Sometimes, no one is to blame. Sh*t happens! Ever heard that before?
It seems that Dekonick is the only one that understands that this entire operation depends on PEOPLE. People who have other jobs. People who are worried about their own families. People who have to travel several hundred miles. FEMA doesn't have a 10,000 man disaster relief force sitting somewhere out in the boonies, twiddling their thumbs, waiting for the big call. It's calling up electric utilities and asking them how many line trucks they can spare. It's asking local EMS and fire departments if they can spare a unit or two. It's diverting semitrucks from more profitable private hauls. It's airfreight companies breaking existing contracts and diverting planes.

john, you're right. sh*t does happen. but isn't that what FEMA and homeland security are for? politicians on both sides are equally at fault. pork barrel politics, from the left and right, rule the day. hard answers and choices are avoided like the plague. NO was a disaster waiting to happen. the netherlands built their system. NO did not. that was/is a polticial decision.

one of our clients is a massachusetts based utility. we talked about this with them the day before katrina hit. i know the reality of the situation. i'm not saying it's easy. but government tries to take credit for things when they go right (our economic policies have lead to the improving economy, blah, blah, blah.) but has a politician ever said, our policies lead to this mess?

[JohnS]

A few points.
There was a news report yesterday that interviewed an ex
FEMA official. They did specific studies and simulation of this exact
event (Hurricane and NO flooded) last year. Why were they so
unprepared?
Where were the Buses to evacuate the people BEFORE Katrina hit?
The National and local Gov'ts could have mobilized prior to
Katrina ever making landfall.
I agree that the rest of La. and Mi. have not been getting 1/2 the
coverage they should. Entire towns have been swept away. Sure
they are not flooded now, but the residents are also homeless also have no
food water medicine etc. It's not just New Orleans that is in trouble.

marty
Think back before the storm...I think many of the evacuation plans were put on hold because of the media reports. First, Katrina was downgraded from a 5 to a 4. Then, it swerved east and "missed" NO.

[JohnS]

john, you're right. sh*t does happen. but isn't that what FEMA and homeland security are for? politicians on both sides are equally at fault. pork barrel politics, from the left and right, rule the day. hard answers and choices are avoided like the plague. NO was a disaster waiting to happen. the netherlands built their system. NO did not. that was/is a polticial decision.

one of our clients is a massachusetts based utility. we talked about this with them the day before katrina hit. i know the reality of the situation. i'm not saying it's easy. but government tries to take credit for things when they go right (our economic policies have lead to the improving economy, blah, blah, blah.) but has a politician ever said, our policies lead to this mess?
I agree with most of what you say. But...I doubt the Netherlands system could withstand a Cat 5 storm, either. And, porkbarrel politics makes the world go around. The rebuilding of NO, in the same location, will be the greatest example of that ever! :crap:

[MartyE]

JohnS,

I do agree that for the most part NO survived the initial storm
it wasn't until the levees broke the day after the storm(?) that
the sh*t really hit the fan.
That said NO would flood during a good thunderstorm, so what
did the local officials think would happen if 15 to 20 inches of rain
fell? the pumps were rated for 1 inch an hour.
I don't think the media is totally to blame for this one.
On Sunday (when the evacuations should have been taking place)
Katrina was still cat 5 and heading for NO.
Marty

[JohnS]

JohnS,

I do agree that for the most part NO survived the initial storm
it wasn't until the levees broke the day after the storm(?) that
the sh*t really hit the fan.
That said NO would flood during a good thunderstorm, so what
did the local officials think would happen if 15 to 20 inches of rain
fell? the pumps were rated for 1 inch an hour.
I don't think the media is totally to blame for this one.
On Sunday (when the evacuations should have been taking place)
Katrina was still cat 5 and heading for NO.
Marty
Yes, and that's when 90% of the people left. That left the unfortunate few who couldn't and the wolves that prey on good people, even in good times. They should've been shot. Shoot a few, and everyone else decides they have something safer to do.

[RichMc]

As sad as the situation in NO is it goes to show that our world, largely, is a bubble, an illusion of sorts.

This disaster is beyond the scope of FEMA and will "tax" government agencies on the federal, state & local levels almost beyond comprehension.

This is not what Homeland Security was created for so don't even go there. Homeland Security was created as a kneejerk response to the 9-11 disaster where there was a huge public outcry of why weren't we able to protect ourselves from terrorists. Note that in the four years since that time we are still pretty much unprotected. Airline security has improved somewhat and personal identification technologies have stepped up to the point, and past, of privacy invasion.

No, the real scope of these challenges are far more reaching than most are prepared to deal with. As a collective whole we don't really believe the disaster will happen. So no money or energy goes into prevention or contingency planning because the political willingness is not there. Just for example take the electrical system infrastructure. A freak storm that knocks out a few critical power lines can knock out an electrical grid that covers a quarter of the country. Remember that from a couple of years ago. Now, no power equals no refrigeration and no gas being pumped or produced. No food to the masses and no delivery of fuel to the power plants, trains, trucks, etc. that transport the goods needed to sustain the population. Now wipe out the surface transportation medium (roads, bridges, train tracks) and you're really screwed. Can't move anything or anybody in or out. The effect snowballs.

The Katrina disaster is just highlighting the fragility of our system and existence. This goes far beyond whether or not to repair a city that's below sea level. The question of why did they build there in the first place is almost silly. It's not like they built it in the last twenty years. It's got something like 200 years, give or take, of history. Look at Las Vegas. It absolutely should not be there. Out in the middle of stinking desert sucking water out of the Colorado River to exist at the expense of lands that depended on the river for centuries for their existence. Yet we go ahead anyway and it's one of the fastest growing cities in the country. Go figure.

I'm just saying that we build and expand faster than we can maintain or support. All on the mere whisp of human contrivance. How would any of your local communities handle such a disaster? Not well I would venture. People will criticize the efforts being made to deal with the NO situation because there will always be critics. Most of it will be unfair because they are not in the middle of it and those that are never had to deal with something like this ever before. It staggers the imagination. Send money, relief and prayer. The human spirit needs to be generous.

[Argos]

The Netherlands system is built to withstand the 1 in every 10,000 year storm, the NO system is built to withstand the 1 in every 100 year storm. Apathy and hunger for votes over action and the willingness to make hard decisions greatly impacted this outcome. This Levee system should have been completed in the late 80's to early 90's, but everyone has to have their Tax cuts. I can think of a place I'd rather be putting $50/month in taxes now for the last 15 years. Hmmm. If we'd not distrusted our government for incompetance based on the fact they get nothing done (which is because they are underfunded and all fighting for the same nickels) maybe we could once again be a thriving nation.

Maybe we need to accept more responsibility for our actions as a country. Perhaps we should pay slightly higher taxes so we do not have to worry about then later having to Donate. Perhaps a robust and funded Federal Gov't could provide higher education and living standards to our inner cities. Perhaps Public Works projects no longer need to be a thing of the past. Perhaps the status quo doesn't have to be.....

Oh, but wait. Here we are.

I think maybe we should get a little loud about making changes to the way things are done and knock-off all the backroom hand jobs that are slowing everything down.

I commend the Senator from Louisiana that DIDN'T criticize Hester on what he said, questioning if we should bother rebuilding, but just instead suggested that the immediate now was not the appropriate time to discuss it.

[davids]

Bro ,I am goin down to N.O. or Miss.this A.M. with some firefighters I know to be a messenger I am going to be riding a singlespeed mt. bike I feel like I need to do something for my bros. I'll be back Tuesday Cheers :beer:
Godspeed, Fixed.

The husband of one of my colleagues, a firefighter from Malden, MA trained in all manner of rescue techniques (close quarters, underwater, etc.) threw his name in the hat for FEMA today. If he gets called, he'll be gone at least a month.

I admire this kind of dedication more than I can say.

[dave thompson]

You all want to do something constructive to help with this calamity? Call your local Red Cross, donate money and then donate your time. I called the Red Cross this morning and they are screaming for volunteers, both to be deployed to the affected areas and to do whatever is needed at the local branches. Tomorrow there is a telethon that needs volunteers to man the phone bank, the office needs volunteers, they need volunteer bodies to do a lot of grunt-work so the trained folks can do theirs. Call your local Red Cross office and volunteer. We did.

[Dekonick]

You all want to do something constructive to help with this calamity? Call your local Red Cross, donate money and then donate your time. I called the Red Cross this morning and they are screaming for volunteers, both to be deployed to the affected areas and to do whatever is needed at the local branches. Tomorrow there is a telethon that needs volunteers to man the phone bank, the office needs volunteers, they need volunteer bodies to do a lot of grunt-work so the trained folks can do theirs. Call your local Red Cross office and volunteer. We did.

Now THIS is how we can help!

Let the trained personnel go to the disaster - help fill the void in your local area. Not as glorious, but probably more important.

Another thing - don't panic. Give it a week and order will be restored. It is unfortunate that a minority of the population are making this work hell - the size and scope of this rescue and recovery is huge and will take more time than one would think. To rush in is foolish- this has to be an organized effort. FEMA has mobilized - give it a little time to get a foothold and Ill bet you will see major improvements. I know that in my local area, several counties have already sent in specialized teams to do search and rescue. My jurisdiction has a team mobilized and ready to go - just waiting for the signal. The biggest help (like DT said) is to give some of your time (perhaps a greenback too) to your local red cross. Telethon's etc often end up with alot of money - but it gets tied up in legal affairs. (how do you spend it? who gets the $$? When? etc...) Giving to the red cross solves a problem as they already have a means to use that money and spread help much more effeciently, and fairly.

In a week the major pains for the rest of us will be gone (oil restored...etc...) but it will just be beginning for those who lost everything. This is going to take a long time to pass completely.

I still don't get the idea of building a major city below sea level when you don't have to... :confused: but I guess we will just have to deal with that too.

It is painful to watch the news - if I weren't at work I would turn it off alltogether.

I don't know about the rest of yall, but tomorrow I plan on going for a nice, slow, long ride. Somehow I don't think there will be too many SUV's to worry about... :D

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Maybe if all our National Guard and money were not in Iraq we would be better able to help the poor souls who are devistated by mother Nature??

[JohnS]

I know I'm dating myself, but the whole last week I haven't been able to get the old Donovan song "Atlantis" out of my head.

[Kevin]

I know I'm dating myself, but the whole last week I haven't been able to get the old Donovan song "Atlantis" out of my head.

Donovan? Isn't he the old guy who married Marlo Thomas and had a talk show? ;)

Kevin

[Argos]

No, 'Donovan' was Marc Singer's character on the hit TV show "V".

[Bill Bove]

"hit tv show" :confused: :confused:
Deborah Adair was so sexy when she ate those crickets and mice.

[ada@prorider.or]

i think we have to help all the people where usa gouvermant is responsible for

but what we here cannot understand is netherlands ask the usa or they need HELP!!! and they decline the help


that's really not understandble

i was in poland when there was the war of state
with solidarnosz and the people where very glad that they got help

so my lesson was go help your selve thats the best thing you can do
i saw helping goods of red cross sold truck loads full
on black market and they where deliverd on the spot where people need it
but they never got it
after several visits i called red cross and told them what happened the director himselve said well those things happens at least the stuff is in poland that all we worry about the rest is up to the people
since then i only make sure i help the people myselve
then i am sure people get it
cees