Columbus MAX question for the framebuilders...

[buldogge]

I've got a line on an interesting Columbus MAX frame...but...it looks like the chainstays will need to be replaced, unless I want to rig a brazed diamond patch or somesuch (I know no one would recommend plugging or patching, so I won't ask). They are currently sporting 2-4mm rust holes.

Two questions...

1) Is the current production MAX chainstay a direct swap for an original 90's piece (in relation to BB shell/etc.)?

2) What is the best source for MAX chainstays without buying a tubeset (NOVA for example)?

TIA
-Mark in St. Louis

[David Kirk]

I've got a line on an interesting Columbus MAX frame...but...it looks like the chainstays will need to be replaced, unless I want to rig a brazed diamond patch or somesuch (I know no one would recommend plugging or patching, so I won't ask). They are currently sporting 2-4mm rust holes.

Two questions...

1) Is the current production MAX chainstay a direct swap for an original 90's piece (in relation to BB shell/etc.)?

2) What is the best source for MAX chainstays without buying a tubeset (NOVA for example)?

TIA
-Mark in St. Louis

Any idea what the rest of the tubes are like? It would seem to be a slim chance that the c-stays are rusted out but the rest of the tubes are fine.

dave

[buldogge]

Hey Dave... I don't have the frame in my possession...a buddy has it overseas. It is a small dutch manufacturer and the rest of the frame appears fine. I would really love to "save" the frame, although it may not be prudent, I suppose.

He is going to pull the BB tomorrow (hopefully) and see what else can be seen. The rust in the chainstays is very obvious though.

I can attach a pic here shortly, I think.

TIA
-Mark

Any idea what the rest of the tubes are like? It would seem to be a slim chance that the c-stays are rusted out but the rest of the tubes are fine.

dave

[ultraman6970]

I know kirk will kill me and the other builders too but depending on how big the holes are (and if there is no more rust anywhere else) they can be covered w/o any problem, in a matter of fact i got a bike years ago that had a problem like that. My master builder looked it inside to see if more of the tubing was compromised and he drilled a bigger hole and then he proceeded to cover it with bronze, file it, sand it, new paint, no way to know was there. like 60 years building do a lot tho. So far the frame died in an accident not from the possible rust.

For the record im not talking of a big ass hole just like 5 mm diameter holes ok?

I have seen also patches just like they do in body shops, then file them all the way down but that was an extreme case of a colnago master and those tubes where not available for replacement.

Good luck with the fix... would be nice for the guys to see the damage you are talking about, maybe is not that bad...

Good luck :)

[buldogge]

Here's a pic of the chainstays. :(

-Mark

[buldogge]

I'm sure Dave wouldn't recommend that course, but I have considered cleaning the tube back to solid metal, treating the frame with phosphoric and brazing in plugs or brazing on diamond shaped reinforcements. A CS replacement could always follow later on, assuming this could be done safely.

Thoughts one way or the other...range of options?

Hate to waste this frame...

-Mark

[J.Greene]

For what you'd spend on a repair and decent paint job you could find a nice Merckx max frame or some other like brand that's in much better shape. This frame was either very well used or abused.

[buldogge]

Not from what I've seen of Merckx MXL prices lately. I have pretty good connections for repair and paint. The cost of the CSs themselves is unknown though, although an entire MAX tube set is $193.

I like quirky stuff.

I can have this frame back on the road with touch-up paint for under $500. The frame builder is well regarded in the NL, but a MAX frame is an unusual offering from them. I also own a Batavus Pro and a Reus Criterium, also relatively rare in the US.

Like I said...not the smartest thing in the world...but...I like a project. Hell, I am even considering brazing the CSs myself as I have been itching to try (I wouldn't go straight to brazing these CSs, obviously).

I appreciate the level head though.

-Mark

For what you'd spend on a repair and decent paint job you could find a nice Merckx max frame or some other like brand.

[ultraman6970]

Wow... thats worse than i thought heheh. The frame has lugs or is fillet brazed??

Love max tubing, the riding is awesome IMO.

File a tiny bit over the rust maybe the rust is just superficial and has not going anywhere else but the holes, if that's the case maybe just cover the holes with bronze, that can be done, but again, hope under the rust all is ok.

Hope you find somebody willing to fix it, because the labor will get the investment over the roof... and probably that's why somebody mentioned to get an EM for example.

Cheers...

[David Kirk]

If I had to make this frame work in a hurry and at minimal cost it would be by cleaning and de-rusting the entire thing inside and out and then I would silver braze on a patch (or patches) over the holes.

I would not under any circumstance will the holes with brass or weld or anything else. The filler used to fill the hole will have almost zero structural integrity and will not make the tube complete again.

C-stays often have the worst corrosion so it's not a surprise that they were the first to go. Before I did anything I'd closely inspect the bottom of the seat tube and see how it is. There is a reasonable chance it is pretty thin if the stays are this bad.

How the the tubes hooked together? Lugs, fillets, tig?

dave

[AngryScientist]

"saving" a frame is a romantic idea, but based on what i see, i would run, not walk away from this one. just my 2-cents though.

[buldogge]

Lugged frame...

FWIW, I have someone (trusted) to braze the new chainstays in for $150 (I will prep the frame, remove paint/etc.). He has, or I have, either way, facing and chasing tools for the BB.

My painter will repaint the rear triangle/BB/affected areas for $50-100. If you saw the touch-ups to my '85 Spectrum you would be OK with the work.

We're not talking Joe Bell, but we're talking auto quality finish, not slapdash.

I'm more wondering about MAX chainstay availability and compatibility.

I will talk myself out of the project if it is beyond my comfort/$$$ level.

Really, I would love to effect a frenched-in or diamond reinforcement repair for the short term, if it is workable.

-Mark

Wow... thats worse than i thought heheh. The frame has lugs or is fillet brazed??

Love max tubing, the riding is awesome IMO.

File a tiny bit over the rust maybe the rust is just superficial and has not going anywhere else but the holes, if that's the case maybe just cover the holes with bronze, that can be done, but again, hope under the rust all is ok.

Hope you find somebody willing to fix it, because the labor will get the investment over the roof... and probably that's why somebody mentioned to get an EM for example.

Cheers...

[buldogge]

Thanx Dave...Hopefully my friend will have a look at the ST tomorrow.

There is no external rust in the ST above the BB shell.

I assumed an external patch was the best route short of new stays, and with silver the heat will be lower. What is a prudent patch size in relation to the finished/cleaned hole size...twice as large all around? I'm thinking diamond bent to follow the curvature, or would a simple half-tube shape be better??

Thanx again for sharing your knowledge here.

-Mark

If I had to make this frame work in a hurry and at minimal cost it would be by cleaning and de-rusting the entire thing inside and out and then I would silver braze on a patch (or patches) over the holes.

I would not under any circumstance will the holes with brass or weld or anything else. The filler used to fill the hole will have almost zero structural integrity and will not make the tube complete again.

C-stays often have the worst corrosion so it's not a surprise that they were the first to go. Before I did anything I'd closely inspect the bottom of the seat tube and see how it is. There is a reasonable chance it is pretty thin if the stays are this bad.

How the the tubes hooked together? Lugs, fillets, tig?

dave

[buldogge]

I understand the concern/fear...but...people repair and re-spray steel frames all the time.

There are people here who have posted perfectly patina'd classic frames that they sent out for $1000 paint jobs (with beautiful results of course).

A 57-58cm MXL seems to be getting close to $1k lately...and everyone has MXLs! :p

I will not touch the frame if the corrosion if beyond the chainstays...but...I think a well built MAX frame is worth a chainstay repair.

Later, I can go for a beautiful custom respray if it is worth it.

-Mark

"saving" a frame is a romantic idea, but based on what i see, i would run, not walk away from this one. just my 2-cents though.

[ultraman6970]

What about a patch using your name initials? :D Will look super custom and nobody will notice.

For 193 the tube set is not bad specially if you have somebody to braze the new ones back in you know. Add to that, that apparently you have all the tools? (I HATE YOU!!! hehehe) ...

Oh you can sell the remaining tubes Or... just copy the other bike angles and get a new one, u have the tubes anyways. Then use the busted one for practicing brazing?

[buldogge]

I think I'll just buy chainstays, as opposed to an entire tubeset...I have emails into Nova and Ceeway.

Where are the frame builders buying MAX stays???

-Mark

What about a patch using your name initials? :D Will look super custom and nobody will notice.

For 193 the tube set is not bad specially if you have somebody to braze the new ones back in you know. Add to that, that apparently you have all the tools? (I HATE YOU!!! hehehe) ...

Oh you can sell the remaining tubes Or... just copy the other bike angles and get a new one, u have the tubes anyways. Then use the busted one for practicing brazing?

[buldogge]

Here's the entire frame BTW...

-Mark

[ultraman6970]

Lucky man :D

[EricEstlund]

I won't speak to the suitability of the repair, but to answer your specific questions- the current profiles are just slightly different then the old ones. That said, the old ones never fit the lugs well anyway, so the work level will be roughly equivalent.

[buldogge]

Thanx Eric... I assume from the tone of your post that you wouldn't tackle the repair, even with new chainstays???

BTW...Who do you like for supply of your MAX tubing?

TA
-Mark

I won't speak to the suitability of the repair, but to answer your specific questions- the current profiles are just slightly different then the old ones. That said, the old ones never fit the lugs well anyway, so the work level will be roughly equivalent.

[EricEstlund]

I wouldn't say I would avoid the repair, just that I would refrain from making recommendations without being able to inspect the frame set. I would question the integrity of the BB shell and tubes that intersect it based on that level of rust, but will leave the assessment to the person doing the fix.

Peter at Ceeway often has MAX, though Lon at Nova and Joe Bringheli are also possible sources.

[buldogge]

Understood...Thanx Eric.

-Mark

I wouldn't say I would avoid the repair, just that I would refrain from making recommendations without being able to insect the frame set. I would question the integrity of the BB shell and tubes that intersect it based on that level of rust, but will leave the assessment to the person doing the fix.

Peter at Ceeway often has MAX, though Lon at Nova and Joe Bringheli are also possible sources.

[Louis]

Mark, this sounds like a cool project. I wish I could see the pics.

(for some reason that I can't figure out, some types of images don't show up on my browser - IE8)

[buldogge]

I emailed you the pics Louis...

-Mark

Mark, this sounds like a cool project. I wish I could see the pics.

(for some reason that I can't figure out, some types of images don't show up on my browser - IE8)

[Louis]

I emailed you the pics Louis...

-Mark

Thanks - I'll check them out.

[Chance]

"saving" a frame is a romantic idea, but based on what i see, i would run, not walk away from this one. just my 2-cents though.

+1

Steel and corrosion never mix well. See no reason to save a rust bucket regardless of it's initial value in its glory day. It's no longer the same frame. Never will be in my opinion.

[buldogge]

As I said...I love a project. These arrived from Ceeway today:

-Mark

[gomango]

Go get 'em tiger.

Can't wait to watch your project unfold.

I'm sure I'll learn quite a bit.

Those stays are beauties, no doubt.

[AgilisMerlin]

you going to copy with repaint.

curious ?

[zennmotion]

As I said...I love a project. These arrived from Ceeway today:

-Mark

I'd sooner "love a project" by just building an entire frame than trying to fix a decomposing geezer- probably easier too. This will be expensive scrap metal IMO

[ultraman6970]

Well you have the lugs in there...

You have two options to get the stays out... (have seen the two methods)

1 head the dropouts and basically slide the stay off the dropout and then to the same with the BB joint area. the advantage is that you will get both stays completely out, so is just got ant cut the new ones exactly the same and braze them.

2 cut the stuff in the middle... heat the dropouts and the BB joint to take the pieces out, I would do this one if i could remember how to braze. Learn when i was 15 but as usual no practice then u forget. second problem... flammable gases just scare me to death.

Put the bike together is easier, the only advice... don't abuse of heating because you can crystallize a dropout or the BB really easily. Just follow the bright red color :D

If you are going to paint it in another color, sand blast the frame if possible... car primer, car paint, car clear.. done!.

:)

[4Rings6Stars]

I'd sooner "love a project" by just building an entire frame than trying to fix a decomposing geezer- probably easier too. This will be expensive scrap metal IMO

Ouch, how do you really feel?


Looks like a cool project, I'm excited to see it progress.

[JLP]

Funny, but I have in my garage an exact copy of a MXL with rusted chain stays. I also got the replacements from Ceeway, but I have not put them in yet.

It seems a worthy repair to me.

[Pearsom]

I had an MXL with a rusted chainstay. Decided it was better for me to search for another frame than to take on the repair.

That said, I applaud the attempt here and am looking forward to seeing how it goes

[4Rings6Stars]

I had an MXL with a rusted chainstay. Decided it was better for me to search for another frame than to take on the repair.

That said, I applaud the attempt here and am looking forward to seeing how it goes

Still have it? ;)

Mine could use company and I'm getting better with the OA torch...

[buldogge]

Since I'm gonna strip and re-paint, I will not be returning to the RWB scheme. I have (2) RWB bikes already...An Andy Gilmour team frame from the mid-80's and a '95 Batavus Pro KNWU team bike (another Dutch import).

This frame will be resprayed diamond or pearl white with gold graphics...simple/easy.

I've attached a pic of my buddy Mel's white Vittorio Strada as inspiration.

you going to copy with repaint.

curious ?

If it does go the way you so kindly have predicted...so be it...I'll have spent less than many spend on a weekend drinking with their bros or less than a complete Rapha get-up...oh well.

As far as building a frame...in good time.

I'd sooner "love a project" by just building an entire frame than trying to fix a decomposing geezer- probably easier too. This will be expensive scrap metal IMO

If the frame is really rough beyond the stays, I will have a go at it myself...if it is clean besides the stays I will have someone with more experience do the swap/brazing...FWIW.

Thanx for the support guys...I'll post some pics after it arrives and I strip and treat it.

-Mark

[gomango]

Would you hurry up and learn how to build anyway?

What's the hold up? :)

Seriously though, I'll buy the first box of Columbus tubes when you are ready for it.

Yep, I'd be the guinea pig.

I've wanted a touring/fireroad frameset ever since I sold my Bruce Gordon.

Just lighter than my Rock n' Road please.