.

[cat6]

The Gateway District is a large open air retail, residential and office complex in Salt Lake City, Utah, United States. The complex is centered around the historic Union Pacific Depot in downtown Salt Lake City. It currently contains over 105 stores and restaurants.

[DRietz]

Did you go to Bespoke in San Francisco? If so, I'm surprised at your reaction - they're a great bunch of guys. Anyway, I've met Kent several times and I would not hesitate to have him build me a bike...in fact, I love the prospect

[cat6]

Did you go to Bespoke in San Francisco? If so, I'm surprised at your reaction - they're a great bunch of guys. Anyway, I've met Kent several times and I would not hesitate to have him build me a bike...in fact, I love the prospect

I live in SoCal.

[velotel]

I could easily be considered biased because Kent's a friend since back in the early 80's plus I sell his bikes for him here in Europe. I use the verb sell rather loosely since I'm retired, don't own a bike shop, and don't touch the bikes; I just handle all the communication and money in the deal and pass along a very good affair to euro riders. That said, you'd be hard pressed to find someone more agreeable to work with than Kent (as agreeable yes, like Steve Potts for but one example, another old friend) and I know he much prefers talking over the phone with people about what they want. In fact in all the years I have never received an e-mail from him; his wife Katy handles that. Whenever I have customers here in France who speak english well and they're not entirely clear on something, I always have them call Kent directly to work it out and everyone has been thoroughly content with the exchanges. You can ask Max (maxn) about that; he just ordered one. There's a picture of it on the Col du Granier post, also a picture of mine.

In short, you won't be ordering an Eriksen via the net but by telephone because Kent likes to work like that to know his customers. Thus effectively you're simply eliminating the bike shop from the conversation because if you order one via the shop, that's what the shop will do, call Kent.

[beeatnik]

I live in SoCal.

Sounds like you experienced the Bike Effect.

What size Moots are you looking at?

[jr59]

I replied tru PM.

Of the two you list, I would pick Eriksen.
Picking up the phone and speaking to the guy with his name on the bike means something to me. That and he seems to be a good guy, who freely give his input on bikes and such. Plus his bikes look great and ride the same, or so I am told.

[Germany_chris]

I wouldn't buy a Moots because it's Über trendy...and stock..the Eriksen is neither

[rePhil]

You won't go wrong with either one. I will never part willingly with my Moots. I consider it my lifetime bike.
It's great to have a closeness to the builder, but after my purchase I have never contacted Moots for any reason other than to order a t shirt.
Have fun shopping.

[Lorenz]

Hi there,

got a RigorMootis with Rohloff, a Vamoots and a Eriksen roadbike.

If you want a once-in-a-lifetime-frame: get the Eriksen. Kent & Katie are fun to work with. Turnaround & pricing were great.

If you tend to buy & sell frames from time to time AND if you fit on standard frame I would go for Moots. If you ever sell that one it's just a Moots and not something special by some boutique builder (which might be nice moneywise).

Other than that – craftsmenship on both is just insane :-)

Cheers, Lorenz

[gearguywb]

The wife and I both are fortunate to have a couple of Moots (es?) in the garage. We love them. She often calls me a bike 'ho (correct), but the longest lasting (and no close second) are the Moots.

That being said, I would go with Kent in a heartbeat. IMHO, he is Moots (v1).

I went Moots on my last new road frame because the RSL was calling me. Love it.

Seriously considering a bike for fat (er) tires for gravel and do not want to go the cyclocross route. Kent may very well be the guy that I turn to.

[jpw]

I wouldn't buy a Moots because it's Über trendy...and stock..the Eriksen is neither

...and uber expensive, if you buy in Munich.

The last time I was in the market for a frame it was a choice between a Moots and a Serotta. I went Serotta. Next time it will probably be the same two, and I have a feeling it will be Serotta again. Why? Not price :-). The Moots frame just looks a little less refined, a little too much like very high quality... nuclear submarine plumbing. People rave about the welds, but to my eye the bead lines are somehow a little bit abrupt, not quite discreet.

Kent is a great story. I think I'd enjoy meeting him.

[AngryScientist]

IMO, if you can accept the wait time, buying a bike directly from a builder trumps a frame from a larger, less intimate company. go eriksen.

[yakstone]

Great choices to have. I live in Colorado and recently did the Moots factory tour. Bigger builder sure, but very impressive how little automation there is in that plant, the vast majority of work is performed by hand with very high precision. Fit and finish is very impresssive as well as the tooling that they have and their ability to shape and butt their tubes in house.
That being said I would still entertain a discussion with Kent as a part of me tends to sway away from trendy and more toward the individual craftsman.

Good luck with that one.

[MattTuck]

Why not get a Ti Hampsten by Kent Eriksen.... two brands for the price of one ;)

[oldpotatoe]

I've thinned my bikes from many to few and as a reward I'd like to use the cash from my bike sales to purchase a Ti roadie. I know the whole Eriksen/Moots history. The way I see it I can have a custom built by the man himself for the same price as an off the shelf Moots. I think an off the shelf Moots is a GREAT bike, by the way.

I went to the nearest Moots dealer today(an hour away) to have a chat and didn't learn much, 'twas a boutique shop that didn't really rub me the right way, think Banana Republic with a dozen bikes on display. If I purchase a Moots from a LBS I'd want it to be a real bike shop. I have a feeling if I had a LBS like Vecchio's nearby I'd have walked out feeling great and would have placed the order knowing I'd be taken care of. Plan the whole build from frame to fork, group and a hand built wheelset. That's not gonna happen here.

So I'm going to be doing this all over the internet, despite my intentions for human contact. With that said, I've strongly shifted from Moots to Eriksen.

Besides a longer wait for the Eriksen, does this wealth of knowledge known as "The Paceline" have anything to contribute which might help influence my decision? Pros and cons type stuff I may not have already considered.

Thanks!

You can always come for a visit....and we would be happy to ship the Moots to you but...

I think it comes down to a small, not really affiliated to the bike shop 'middlemen', one person builder, who really will build just about anything you wish VS a large, established, very successful(2011 was Moots best year ever) titanium bicycle frame company.

If going Erikson, I recommend talking to him in person. Too bad your decision about Moots has been clouded by 'bike shop people', that doesn't really convey anything about the actual frame.

If you can, you could go down to Mill Valley and talk to Chad at Above Catagory(unless that's where the 'bad' experience came from).

Not surprised about the $ tho, margin direct to the builder VS margin to a bike shop, then to the builder. makes for a different price structure.

[teleguy57]

+1 on the Hampsten. Excellent experience working with Steve, and amazing craftmanship from Max. You can get the Ericksen version, but I'm really thrilled with my in-house Gran Paradiso. Now I'm thinking about a Strade Bianche -- but not for a while....

[veloduffer]

I recently bought a used Moots and really like the bike, as I wanted a race oriented ti bike. If I didn't get such a good deal on the used bike, I was going to buy new from Jim Kish (I was also looking at Eriksen).

I have a custom Kish (ti cross/tourer) and it was all done over the phone (he was in CA and I'm in NJ/NY). Between email and phone calls, Jim was a pleasure to work with. Jim moved to North Carolina, so he isn't close to you. But if you already know what you approximate needs are, I don't think you need to meet the builder personally. It is a great experience, however, as I met Richard Sachs to build my steel bike.

I have owned other ti bikes (Litespeed and Merlin when they were THE ti bikes in the 90s, plus Seven Axiom) and like the Moots, they are all fine steeds. Another consideration would be Spectrum. I think you'd be happy with any of them.

[Tony T]

I considered Moots, but decided on Firefly (http://fireflybicycles.com/), about a 6mo wait for a build.
I didn't know about Eriksen at the time (I stopped looking after Firefly), but I just took a look at Eriksen's website, and I'm impressed. If I had to decide between Moots and Eriksen, I would pick Eriksen (consider finding a good bike fitter. You can always use the sizing charts on the order form, but it's better to get a fitter to size you).

For some nice pic's of custom bikes (not just Ti), take a look at: http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f15/

[Jeff N.]

Look over the Moots and Eriksen. Gorgeous bikes. Now...call Bill Holland. Jeff N.

[metalheart]

I agree with Jeff ... if you are in SoCal and you are looking at Eriksen/Moots quality, then Holland is worth considering since Bill's bikes are IMHO in the same quality category, plus you can visit them directly. I think there is some value in the in-person experience of fitting that Bill and company does.

[Germany_chris]

...and uber expensive, if you buy in Munich.

The last time I was in the market for a frame it was a choice between a Moots and a Serotta. I went Serotta. Next time it will probably be the same two, and I have a feeling it will be Serotta again. Why? Not price :-). The Moots frame just looks a little less refined, a little too much like very high quality... nuclear submarine plumbing. People rave about the welds, but to my eye the bead lines are somehow a little bit abrupt, not quite discreet.

Kent is a great story. I think I'd enjoy meeting him.

I try not to buy too much on the economy, earning in dollars and paying in euro is bad business. I also tend not to buy from people I don't even to the point of change what I buy to refect what the person I comfortable with sells.

[4Rings6Stars]

It's been said already, but I'll reiterate that this decision should largely be based on how well you fit on a stock Moots.

Maybe take a drive up north and visit Mr. Potts. A friend of mine (and occasional poster) has several bikes built by Steve (and one by Charlie which is an amazing bike btw) and the quality and attention to detail is amazing. Luckily for me, we ride the same size and he has let me borrow a few of them for extended periods---when/if I can afford it, I will likely have a Potts built.

[MadRocketSci]

It seems a given that Kent Eriksen can build an absolutely first rate ti bike. I'm curious what people think of his fitting skills, his ability to design for a customer's handling specs, and how that is all done over the phone....customer provides measurements? Pictures? TK is known as the man when it comes to design, is KE up there with him?

[Dan Le foot]

Michelle had the same decision to make.
She decided on the Eriksen since a stock Moots just wouldn't work. And Moots was asking a big upcharge for even a small custom fit.
And she liked the Eriksen decals and hed badge better. Oh and the ability to select colors for seat collar, HS and hanger.
The experience was great. Katie and Kent were always available.
frame came in about 2.7 lbs and built up just under 15 lbs.
I let Michelle chime in on the ride.
Dan

[Mikej]

Eriksen. I have 2. Tried to get an RSL, but faced the same Banana Republic store cr@p as you -I also recieved a 2nd bike discount, which is thier standard. I got EVERYTHING I wanted for much less. Moots custom jacks the price $650, so that puts a CR or Vamoots at around 4k vs 3100. Plus no tax. Included with KE. I just really dig thier style, I'll never be better taken care of by another builder, and I am positive you won't either.

[pdmtong]

I know the standard reply...the builders can build you whatever you want.

So, if I want and can fit a stock RSL, can kent/tyler/tom/bill build me a RSL or is there anything in the RSL that is "moots only"

presumeably others could build a "CR" but this question is specific to the RSL

[oldpotatoe]

Eriksen. I have 2. Tried to get an RSL, but faced the same Banana Republic store cr@p as you -I also recieved a 2nd bike discount, which is thier standard. I got EVERYTHING I wanted for much less. Moots custom jacks the price $650, so that puts a CR or Vamoots at around 4k vs 3100. Plus no tax. Included with KE. I just really dig thier style, I'll never be better taken care of by another builder, and I am positive you won't either.

$3700 for custom Vamoots or CR I guess 'around' 4k...but not really. Yep, gotta pay tax if you buy local, kinda the way it is. MO isn't taxed, yet. Too bad you dumped the RSL because of the bike store..again, not really a accurate measure of the frame but I understand.

Builder to buyer direct doubles margin, not surprised at the pricing, w/o those pesky 'bike stores'.

[timto]

Look over the Moots and Eriksen. Gorgeous bikes. Now...call Bill Holland. Jeff N.

Also where I was looking if I were to splurge on TI....

[mso]

Just went through the same decision making process and ended up getting the Eriksen and love the my now built up bike. Eriksen was my choice for the following reasons:

1. Custom geometry at N/C. I needed a small HT extension and I prefer a sloping TT. In a Vamoots that would have cost me an extra 650.00.
2. Excellent Customer Service - Someone always answers the phone and quick email response
3. Working with the Builder - Kent is knowledgeable and will build you whatever you desire. If you want oversize tubing, chainstays etc. he can do that, it's really whatever you want.
4. Cool Headtube Badge and coordinating colors with decals, seat collar and hanger. Adds a little "bling" to the bike.
5. Excellent workmenship - Welds are flawless and dropouts beautiful.
6. Lighter frame than the Vamoots in my size. Frame 2.7lbs built just at 15.



Now I have the frame built and on the road the ride is excellent. It rocks up the hill and is very stable on the descents. I would highly recommend the Eriksen. Give Kent a call.

[John H.]

I would go Moots if you want an RSL- techiest Ti bike out there. Also Moots if you at all care about resale value (small builder bikes tend to resell low).

For anything else I would go Eriksen. For price, personal attention and customizing- they do a really good job.

[93legendti]

Eriksen or a Spectrum Super Custom by Tom Kellogg

[Desert Fox]

Bill Holland and his crew.

Exceptional quality; exceptional people.

[tsarpepe]

I like your logic: you have been selling bikes in order to reduce the number of bikes you have, and with the money you got from the sales you are planning on increasing the number of bikes you have by ordering either a Moots or an Eriksen. :fight:

Disclaimer: I operate on the same logic.

[tannhauser]

If you can, you could go down to Mill Valley and talk to Chad at Above Catagory(unless that's where the 'bad' experience came from).



OP is in SoCal. Not sure anyone's ever had a bad experience at AC, they are that good.

[Honey]

This isn't a major part but, something I think is worth throwing out. How well versed in different frame geometries and handling qualities are you/ do you know exactly what you want. While I'd expect that any frame builder who's been around the block can usually figure it out it's something I think is pretty important to consider when going custom.

No one says they want a poorly handling, everyone wants a 'good' handling bike, well what does that mean to you? How that incorporates into the process and how the way you ride your bike vs the way other people ride their bikes is part of this and I think worth noting. I love my stock Moots(road, cross) as well as my Kishs (ss mtn, ss dirt road/cross) but they're different. I've never ridden a road bike that FOR ME comes close to handling like my moots, especially in the areas that I like to push it (big turns coming down the mountain, a personal favorite is the descent from climax going north on rt 24 into minturn, hauling into that first big left is what I dream of for road bikes). There's something to be said for not messing with a good thing if you don't know exatly what you're trying to get out of it.

That all being said, I couldn't ask for more out of Jim's work. The bike's are gorgeous ride amazing, and i couldn't ask for more out them. Jim is wonderful to work with and I don't doubt that Kent is equally as fantastic to work with, if you're looking for differences that don't include suspension mountain bikes you're splitting hairs.

What do you want out of the bike?

[cnighbor1]

One of the original Moots Ti frame builders went to Seattle and is now building for Davidson handbuilt cycles. So they build a great ti frame for about $2300. ask to talk to robert freeman and say I mentioned them. I own two great davidsons
http://davidsonbicycles.com/
Charles Nighbor

[cnighbor1]

include seven in your search

[rnhood]

All these recommendations are good. I think you have to listen to your heart and go. Don't question yourself. Or, you can flip a coin. And keep flipping it until Moots comes up.

[cat6]

.

[August]

Bill Holland: Yes.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7206/6956233637_cd7108c7fe_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/atemryeats/6956233637/)
Three Masters (http://www.flickr.com/photos/atemryeats/6956233637/) by AteMrYeats (http://www.flickr.com/people/atemryeats/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7070/6810125754_78a87e682c_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/atemryeats/6810125754/)
Holland Exogrid Tubes (http://www.flickr.com/photos/atemryeats/6810125754/) by AteMrYeats (http://www.flickr.com/people/atemryeats/), on Flickr



Kent Eriksen: Yes

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7208/6956241387_1640aa0008_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/atemryeats/6956241387/)
Kent Eriksen (http://www.flickr.com/photos/atemryeats/6956241387/) by AteMrYeats (http://www.flickr.com/people/atemryeats/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7037/6810131370_c9bdd47a6c_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/atemryeats/6810131370/)
Eriksen Welds (http://www.flickr.com/photos/atemryeats/6810131370/) by AteMrYeats (http://www.flickr.com/people/atemryeats/), on Flickr



Moots? I suppose. For MTB:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7048/6956235233_1788d9a534_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/atemryeats/6956235233/)
Moots Mooto-X RSL (http://www.flickr.com/photos/atemryeats/6956235233/) by AteMrYeats (http://www.flickr.com/people/atemryeats/), on Flickr



There are a great many great builders out there working in titanium, but Holland would be at the top of my list.

[Ken Robb]

My Hampsten Strada Bianca by MOOTS has their YBB rear end which I love. The bike has a lovely paint job too. Does MOOTS still build any ti bikes for Hampsten?
I gave up my wonderful Serotta Legend because the Hampsten did everything it did plus allowed 700x35mm tires when I want them and the YBB is a big plus for me both on and off pavement.

Lots of great ti builders have been suggested and getting fitted by Bill Holland in San Diego would be a big plus for me as would getting a YBB. Heck what about a ti Serotta or have they priced themselves out of consideration?

[Jeff N.]

Great shot of Bill and JB. (Kirk, I think, turned around on the left) That's a one-two combo that's bard to beat! Jeff N.

[Elefantino]

http://cyclefit.co.uk/uploads/serotta_1.jpg

[jr59]

Thanks for all the input folks. The bike shop actually followed up with a nice email today, although they'd confused the models I'd asked about. Just to clarify, my intent wasn't to bash the boutique shop or any others like it. It just wasnt for me. I suppose I'm a little more blue collar in that sense, whereas when dealing with bikes I'd prefer a greasy 1-2 man shop over a posh contemporary boutique. To each their own.

After some PM's suggesting Spectrum I realized that I'll be in Tom Kellogg's neck of the woods in the very near future. I gave him a call and have an appointment lined up for a fitting. With the wealth of options available I don't think I'd be able to go wrong with any of the builders mentioned in this thread, but having the opportunity to be fitted in person by one of the best in the biz seems very exciting to me. The fact that paying him a visit works with my travel plans is just icing on the cake.

Thanks again!

I like this plan! I can see no down side to this plan what so ever. :hello::hello:

Please take plenty of pics. I wish I was going up there as well.

[SpeedyChix]

Kent Eriksen: Yes
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7037/6810131370_c9bdd47a6c_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/atemryeats/6810131370/)
Eriksen Welds (http://www.flickr.com/photos/atemryeats/6810131370/) by AteMrYeats (http://www.flickr.com/people/atemryeats/), on Flickr

Was that a cross frame?

[SpeedyChix]

Thanks for all the input folks. The bike shop actually followed up with a nice email today, although they'd confused the models I'd asked about. Just to clarify, my intent wasn't to bash the boutique shop or any others like it. It just wasnt for me. I suppose I'm a little more blue collar in that sense, whereas when dealing with bikes I'd prefer a greasy 1-2 man shop over a posh contemporary boutique. To each their own.

After some PM's suggesting Spectrum I realized that I'll be in Tom Kellogg's neck of the woods in the very near future. I gave him a call and have an appointment lined up for a fitting. With the wealth of options available I don't think I'd be able to go wrong with any of the builders mentioned in this thread, but having the opportunity to be fitted in person by one of the best in the biz seems very exciting to me. The fact that paying him a visit works with my travel plans is just icing on the cake.

Thanks again!

Excellent move. Tom does an incredible job fitting riders. Designs some great bikes too.

[gearguywb]

Tom is not only a grat fitter, builds nice bikes...he is a heck of a nice guy and a very good rider. Really enjoyed spending some time riding with him at last years across the hall gathering

[August]

Was that a cross frame?

It's the same road frame on which Kent is leaning in the photo above.

[SpeedyChix]

It's the same road frame on which Kent is leaning in the photo above.
Thanks.

[happycampyer]

Tom is not only a grat fitter, builds nice bikes...he is a heck of a nice guy and a very good rider. Really enjoyed spending some time riding with him at last years across the hall gatheringTom K is also an accomplished wheelbuilder.

[FlaRider]

Currently working with Kent on a new road bike. He's been great to deal with so far. Highly recommended.

[old_fat_and_slow]

...

[uber]

Eriksen. I love the Moots and owned two. I would prefer the interaction of having the man himself make a bike for me. Hands down Eriksen.

[Jack Brunk]

Is Kent the actual framemaker or does he have welders etc to do the work? I think Kent's work is first class but is he any different than say Hampsten?
Yes I know Steve has Kent do some of his frames.

[pdmtong]

Is Kent the actual framemaker or does he have welders etc to do the work? I think Kent's work is first class but is he any different than say Hampsten?
Yes I know Steve has Kent do some of his frames.

JB...great question...

[happycampyer]

Is Kent the actual framemaker or does he have welders etc to do the work? I think Kent's work is first class but is he any different than say Hampsten?
Yes I know Steve has Kent do some of his frames.Kent designs the frames (other than the ones he builds for Hampsten), preps, cuts and shapes the tubes and gets them ready for welding. Chris Moore, a former Moots welder and one of the best ti welders to ever wield a torch, does the welding. There's a cool video of Kent and Co. building a mountain bike:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tt5ZxrCwc0

Big fan of both Moots and Kent (currently own an RSL and a YBB, but have had seven or so Moots over the years; have a Hampsten Strada Bianca built by Kent). Can't go wrong either way.

P.S. The relationship among Andy, Steve and Kent goes back decades. You may recall that an old steel Moots (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item230dd9d855&item=150556235861&nma=true&pt=Mountain_Bikes&rt=nc&si=nfF0weTvuqw0SSvUL8XMCJrxaE0%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
) that Kent built for Andy back in the late '80's came up for auction a year or so ago. From talking to Steve, it's because of that longstanding relationship that he'll probably always offer a KE option for certain ti models, even though he's taken production for pretty much everything in house.

P.P.S. I like how Chris is identified in the video simply as:

Chris Moore
Welder Extraordinaire

[SpeedyChix]

Is Kent the actual framemaker or does he have welders etc to do the work? I think Kent's work is first class but is he any different than say Hampsten?
Yes I know Steve has Kent do some of his frames.

Kent does the frame design and then the tubing prep, bending, mitering, machining, etc. and gets it all set up in the welding fixture. Long-time welder does the final welds.

EDIT, looks like happycamper was typing a bit quicker

[FixedNotBroken]

I am twiddling my thumbs about deciding on a Ti purchase as well. I would have to go with Eriksen. Heard only good things about him and the frame owners experiences with his builds. IMO, I would rather spend $3100 on a custom set up compared to spending even more on a Moots that has stock geo. They are both AMAZING bikes and dream builds IMO. You won't go wrong with either but I would choose Eriksen.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=107248&highlight=eriksen

Wow, just scroll down and look at that thing..how does this not cause you to drool?

[John H.]

I just got a custom Eriksen- it is 1st rate. I give the nod to Eriksen unless you want a stock RSL and the RSL fits you well.

[happycampyer]

I just got a custom Eriksen- it is 1st rate. I give the nod to Eriksen unless you want a stock RSL and the RSL fits you well.Or, go custom (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=851637&postcount=49)... :)

[John H.]

All fine and dandy but a 5k or plus frame instead of more like 3k

Or, go custom (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=851637&postcount=49)... :)

[happycampyer]

All fine and dandy but a 5k or plus frame instead of more like 3kAgree completely about the cost differential. It's just that the RSL really does ride very differently from any of the dozen or so ti bikes I've owned, or others that I've ridden. It's pretty unique. That said, even though I personally haven't had any issues with the PF BB30 and the C'dale crank, based on the horror stories that abound (not just with the RSL, but with pretty much any ti bike with BB30 or PF BB30), I don't know if I would own a ti bike with PF BB30 if it were my only bike.

[Jack Brunk]

Kent designs the frames (other than the ones he builds for Hampsten), preps, cuts and shapes the tubes and gets them ready for welding. Chris Moore, a former Moots welder and one of the best ti welders to ever wield a torch, does the welding. There's a cool video of Kent and Co. building a mountain bike:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tt5ZxrCwc0

Big fan of both Moots and Kent (currently own an RSL and a YBB, but have had seven or so Moots over the years; have a Hampsten Strada Bianca built by Kent). Can't go wrong either way.

P.S. The relationship among Andy, Steve and Kent goes back decades. You may recall that an old steel Moots (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item230dd9d855&item=150556235861&nma=true&pt=Mountain_Bikes&rt=nc&si=nfF0weTvuqw0SSvUL8XMCJrxaE0%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
) that Kent built for Andy back in the late '80's came up for auction a year or so ago. From talking to Steve, it's because of that longstanding relationship that he'll probably always offer a KE option for certain ti models, even though he's taken production for pretty much everything in house.

P.P.S. I like how Chris is identified in the video simply as:

Chris Moore
Welder Extraordinaire

Thanks for the information. It seems to me that the choices available today are unlimited for people who want top quality titanium frames in both road and mountain. I love titanium.

[velotel]

umm, can I go against the grain and suggest Lynskey? Why is there never any love for Lynskey? They make wonderful Ti frames. Check 'em out.
Oddly enough there's a guy in northern France who has already bought through me an Eriksen hardtail followed by a road bike and now he's ordering a road bike for his wife to replace his Lynskey. The Lynskeys are good bikes and I was a bit amazed that he's replacing his wife's with an Eriksen. No idea why, didn't ask.

[GuyGadois]

Splitting hairs at this point. All the named builders make increadible bikes that Freds and pros alike can ride. I would lean towards the builder that would measure you up and spend the time talking with you about what kind of bike you are looking for and then dial it up. My money for a Ti bike would go to Bill Holland. He's a genuine guy who takes the time to get it right. Haven't heard a bad thing about him.

GG

[velotel]

It seems a given that Kent Eriksen can build an absolutely first rate ti bike. I'm curious what people think of his fitting skills, his ability to design for a customer's handling specs, and how that is all done over the phone....customer provides measurements? Pictures? TK is known as the man when it comes to design, is KE up there with him?
Kent's been building custom bikes since back in the 80s. I think it's safe to say that during that span of time he's learned a thing or two about fit. Without phones and the internet, there'd hardly be any small custom builders and those that did exist would all be located in major population centers. There definitely wouldn't be any builders located in out of the way places like Steamboat Springs, Colorado or Bozeman, Montana because hardly anyone would travel that far just for a person to person fitting. I suspect that the explosion in custom builders pretty much followed the advent of the internet. Without that no one would know most of these builders exist. So yea, that's how it's done by all the builders, over the phone. Seems to work just fine.

Just out of curiosity, your statement 'TK is known as the man when it comes to design' is based on what? And who is TK?

[beeatnik]

Just out of curiosity, your statement 'TK is known as the man when it comes to design' is based on what? And who is TK?

Tom Kellogg

[firerescuefin]

Tom Kellogg

TK is the "the man"....funny to see how easily people feel slighted if someone names another person who isn't "their" guy. We're fortunate to have a more than a few people that can build a world class bicycle.

Excited you get to work with Tom. Joachim just got his Spectrum...looks great and he can't say enough about Tom's expertise in the process.

[soulspinner]

This is the definition of good problem.:cool:

[happycampyer]

We're fortunate to have a more than a few people that can build a world class bicycle.This, and what Jack said above ("It seems to me that the choices available today are unlimited for people who want top quality titanium frames in both road and mountain") is it in a nutshell. The OP had somehow narrowed it down to Moots and Eriksen, but the list of custom builders in ti is impressive: Serotta, Seven, Independent Fabrication, Lynskey, Spectrum (Tom Kellogg designed, built by Seven), Firefly, Holland, Kish, Strong, Black Sheep—and that's just in the US. Who did I miss? And outside of the US, there's Baum, Crisp, Legend, Passoni, etc.

Every so often there's a thread about "is ti over as a material for building frames?" It will never be a mass-produced item, but imo the choices today are as good as they have ever been.

[Tony T]

I would lean towards the builder that would measure you up and spend the time talking with you about what kind of bike you are looking for and then dial it up.

A great builder might be a not so great fitter. A builder should be suggest fitters that they work with.

[Tony T]

What is the reason that most (if not all) Ti bikes use carbon forks?

[jr59]

Kent's been building custom bikes since back in the 80s. I think it's safe to say that during that span of time he's learned a thing or two about fit. Without phones and the internet, there'd hardly be any small custom builders and those that did exist would all be located in major population centers. There definitely wouldn't be any builders located in out of the way places like Steamboat Springs, Colorado or Bozeman, Montana because hardly anyone would travel that far just for a person to person fitting. I suspect that the explosion in custom builders pretty much followed the advent of the internet. Without that no one would know most of these builders exist. So yea, that's how it's done by all the builders, over the phone. Seems to work just fine.

Just out of curiosity, your statement 'TK is known as the man when it comes to design' is based on what? And who is TK?

Maybe this will help you understand who TK is;

http://www.spectrum-cycles.com/history.php
Helps?

[jpw]

The only consideration about a one person frame shop is what happens if something happens to the 'one'? Where's the enduring lifetime warranty if that happens?

Kent is Kent, but Moots is more than just Mr. Moots.

[oldpotatoe]

All fine and dandy but a 5k or plus frame instead of more like 3k



Vamoots or CR custom frame only is $3700(stock is $3050)

Custom RSL Frame AND fork is $5150(stock F/F is $4500)

[Tony T]

The only consideration about a one person frame shop is what happens if something happens to the 'one'? Where's the enduring lifetime warranty if that happens?

Kent is Kent, but Moots is more than just Mr. Moots.

You will lose a lifetime warranty if a company files for Chap 11.

[jpw]

You will lose a lifetime warranty if a company files for Chap 11.

OK, but I can research the health of a company, take soundings, et.c., but I can't know or predict a single event in a persons life that could end their frame building career (sudden illness, an injury, family change, et.c.). I larger company can survive the misfortunes of an individual employee.

[Tony T]

Lifetime warranty is really a selling gimmick. If a Ti frame is made buy a quality builder, it will last a lifetime.

[oldpotatoe]

Lifetime warranty is really a selling gimmick. If a Ti frame is made buy a quality builder, it will last a lifetime.

Perhaps but I wouldn't buy a titanium frame that had a '3 year warranty', would you?

[Fixed]

Lifetime warranty is really a selling gimmick. If a Ti frame is made buy a quality builder, it will last a lifetime.

I have seen a ti serotta crack just like a steel bike
Cheers

[Tony T]

>Perhaps but I wouldn't buy a titanium frame that had a '3 year warranty', would you?

Yes, I would. Most Lifetime Warranties have stipulations and exceptions that render them virtually useless (i.e. send a registration card within 2 weeks purchase, does not cover normal wear and tear (including the results of fatigue), etc, etc...)

Any defects in workmanship in a frame will be evident in a year or two.

[cincytri]

As others have mentioned, you are lucky to have this kind of "problem." I have several Moots bikes and I'll likely never buy another brand. The Moots nation is very strong and very loyal. Their employees are always friendly and very helpful. Moots is really great about pushing the tech envelope while maintaining their high standards of durability and quality. I recently purchased a Psychlo-X RSL and it is a stunning frame. The oversized tubes, PF BB30, 44mm head tube and flattened top tube for shouldering are the kinds of advancements that help them keep up with the carbon wonder bikes of today without sacrificing what made it such a great company. I can't wait to test ride the new full suspension mountain bike.

I am obsessed with Moots. So much so that I have sort of accepted the sticker shock. The traditional frames are all pushing 3K and the newer RSL frames can push into the $4-5k range. That is a lot of money, but I never regret buying a Moots. Ever.

I can come up with a bunch of reasons to push you to Moots, but the bottom line is you need to pick the bike that calls to you. Moots and Steamboat Springs always speak to me and I love everything about my bikes.

[Honey]

@ cincytri
It's hard to argue that kent's presence/impact isn't still felt at moots. if any of your moots are 7+ years old, then he definitely had some impact on your bikes, and they're all of about a mile or two down the road from each other.

This isn't exactly comparing an ikea bike to a sachs, you could say they're about as close as a small company and a one shop man could possibly be in the world of bikes (in my opinion) and given the opportunity (read: funds/ benefactor) to own an eriksen or another moots I would absolutely jump at. They are right at the top of the food chain along with everything else that's on the forum's gallery

[Uncle Jam's Army]

I have a Hampsten Gran Paradiso Ti manufactured by Eriksen and I absolutely love it. I'd love me a Moots Psychlo-X RSL, but with a threaded BB.

[54ny77]

if i didn't give a hoot about resale and was buying a custom ti bike for life, i'd get an eriksen just because i like the idea of the small custom builder, esp. one who's been around the block and has a solid name like eriksen.

if i wanted to ride ti for a couple years or so to see what it's all about, i'd get a moots. standardized geometry that can be tweaked to fit just about anyone and the resale on 'em--they sure seem to hold their value unlike anything i've ever seen (i look for used vamoots or compacts all the time, still haven't found one that hits my budget number).

both are beautiful bikes.

[MadRocketSci]

Kent's been building custom bikes since back in the 80s. I think it's safe to say that during that span of time he's learned a thing or two about fit. Without phones and the internet, there'd hardly be any small custom builders and those that did exist would all be located in major population centers. There definitely wouldn't be any builders located in out of the way places like Steamboat Springs, Colorado or Bozeman, Montana because hardly anyone would travel that far just for a person to person fitting. I suspect that the explosion in custom builders pretty much followed the advent of the internet. Without that no one would know most of these builders exist. So yea, that's how it's done by all the builders, over the phone. Seems to work just fine.

Just out of curiosity, your statement 'TK is known as the man when it comes to design' is based on what? And who is TK?

Hope you didn't think that I was slighting Kent Eriksen in any way, because he's definitely on the short list to build my upcoming "milestone" bike...with the added bonus that I can drive 3 hours to meet him in person. However, there is just more testimonial and data on the various forums regarding the near-religious experience of going to the barn with your bike, leaning up against the post, and getting fit by TK himself. People rave about how they never thought a custom bike could be that much better than the stock bike they'd previously been riding and thought fit pretty well. So, I think more feedback from owners along those lines would help cement KE's reputation as a great designer/fitter as well as builder.

From what I can tell KE is an accomplished mtb rider and designs mtb's that people rave about. Road is just one of the other types of bike you can get from him, whereas TK is mainly focused on road and track frames. So, Eriksen owners, what do think about Kent's ability to dial in a fit, design a geo that fulfills all your handling desires, and pick tube gauges that give you that "nailed it, i'm done" ride quality?

[John H.]

I would say that Kent and Tom are very different types of fitters.
Tom is the "come see me and I will fit you and ride with you" then design a bike.
Kent is more of a "tell me what kind or riding you do and what you like and don't like about your existing bike" and I will come up with something for you.
Nailing it with Kent comes down to you knowing a bit more about yourself and being able to successfully convey that.
I think you could go see Tom knowing nothing except that you want a custom biker- still would come out great.
This is also not meant to slight Kent (I even have one of his bikes)- just to say that their approaches are different.

Hope you didn't think that I was slighting Kent Eriksen in any way, because he's definitely on the short list to build my upcoming "milestone" bike...with the added bonus that I can drive 3 hours to meet him in person. However, there is just more testimonial and data on the various forums regarding the near-religious experience of going to the barn with your bike, leaning up against the post, and getting fit by TK himself. People rave about how they never thought a custom bike could be that much better than the stock bike they'd previously been riding and thought fit pretty well. So, I think more feedback from owners along those lines would help cement KE's reputation as a great designer/fitter as well as builder.

From what I can tell KE is an accomplished mtb rider and designs mtb's that people rave about. Road is just one of the other types of bike you can get from him, whereas TK is mainly focused on road and track frames. So, Eriksen owners, what do think about Kent's ability to dial in a fit, design a geo that fulfills all your handling desires, and pick tube gauges that give you that "nailed it, i'm done" ride quality?

[PaMtbRider]

Perhaps but I wouldn't buy a titanium frame that had a '3 year warranty', would you?

In a heartbeat. Any manufacturing defect / failure is going to show up within the first 3 years.

[velotel]

From what I can tell KE is an accomplished mtb rider and designs mtb's that people rave about. Road is just one of the other types of bike you can get from him, whereas TK is mainly focused on road and track frames. So, Eriksen owners, what do think about Kent's ability to dial in a fit, design a geo that fulfills all your handling desires, and pick tube gauges that give you that "nailed it, i'm done" ride quality?
I'll probably get well jumped on for the following but that's okay, just my perspective. Designing a frame for someone isn't rocket science nor is it some sort of mystical interaction between builder and rider. People have been building bike frames for individual riders for over a hundred years. Not much has changed with the human body over that time. Today's builders are standing on the collective wisdom of all those years. Some are better learners than others. Some have a wonderful ability to combine the wealth of accumulated wisdom with their own observations/experience and possibly produce an even better final result than another. But judging that final result is purely subjective.

Note that I don’t have any dog in this race. What someone buys is of zero importance to me in any respect. I sell Kent’s bikes here in France and from time to time elsewhere in Europe because he’s an old friend, I enjoy keeping my fingers ever so slightly dipped in the professional side of cycling, and because I like providing euro riders with the opportunity to get a wonderful custom bike for a very good price. I also enjoy tweeking those euro noses who all think carbon is the end all of frame materials. Hence like I said, I have no economic interest in this discussion at all.

Like almost all the early mountain bike builders, Kent came out of a road background and build road bikes before he built ‘mountain bikes’. For a bit of time in the midst of the mountain biking explosion building road frames pretty much disappeared from his game plan, but only temporarily. Note that this was all back under the Moots name, the company he created. But it wasn’t long before he was once again building road frames. Back around ‘92, I’ve forgotten exactly when, he gave me a beautiful road frame to try out that was sporting his rather clever rear suspension. I mention this only to reinforce both that his interest/knowledge of road frames is long standing and that he’s also been a strong innovator. And yea, he is a very accomplished very strong road and mountain biker. I suspect that in fact someone who is a total dork on a bike could in fact build beautiful fitting and performing bikes but for myself I still prefer that my frame comes from someone whose cycling skills are unimpeachable.

Like another poster said, Kent asks for a lot of input from his customers. He likes talking to them, finding out what they’re looking for, what they like, what they don’t like. Seems pretty logical to me because anyone who’s looking at plunking down the price for a top-of-the-line bike is normally already an accomplished cyclist. Then again there are those who just have too much money and would order a custom frame just because anything less would downgrade their ego. From what I read here apparently Tom Kellogg has a different approach though I suspect that in the end it’s really just a different way of communicating with his clients to get to the same point. In my experience with Kent, he’s pretty easy going and doesn’t push his ideas all that hard, more like suggestions as he extracts from the clients what they want. Much of the time the person ordering a frame isn’t all that clear about exactly what he/she wants and if he/she is the sort of person who wants someone to tell them what they need, Kent can be frustrating because he doesn’t make categorical statements. Just his approach.

Like I said, it’s not rocket science. There are so many excellent frame builders out there who are all producing bikes their clients love to ride and in lots of cases swear by. Same with materials. I like riding Kent’s frame because I know him, enjoy him, like riding with him, appreciate his knowledge and skill and approach to life. And that clearly does not say that his frame is better than anyone else’s or even better than an off-the-shelf frame. The best doesn’t exist.

I’m not at all like a lot of members here. I have one road bike, a ti Eriksen, I doubt I’ll ever buy another road frame. I'm too old. My last bike, a Litespeed that they built for me, I rode for a dozen years and a friend is still riding it. In other words I don’t have a stable of bikes from different builders in different materials so any opinions I have on a builder and/or material is based on a pretty limited experience. In the end you’ll select one builder for your frame and you’ll be wonderfully happy with it. Then if you’re like a lot of members here, in a few years you’ll be out looking for another either as a replacement or an addition. You’ll be happy with that one too. So don’t worry about it all so much, just enjoy the process then ride the heck out of whatever you buy.

[Russity]

I wouldn't buy a Moots because it's Über trendy...and stock..the Eriksen is neither

I'm sorry, but if 'being trendy' and 'stock' are the only reasons you'd wouldn't buy one of the very best bikes out there, then you really do have a problem with yourself and not the bike. For the very vast majority of us, a Moots is a bike of pure quality, not trendy. and they have also been making (and still offering) custom bikes much longer than they've been offering stock ones. Either of these bikes will offer exactly the same in ride and quality, the choice will come down to a purely personal decision.

[r.patrick]

http://www.crisptitanium.com/crisp_inglese.htm

[oldpotatoe]

http://www.crisptitanium.com/crisp_inglese.htm

Reminds me of the part in the Dirty Dozen...'pretty, very pretty....but can they fight?"

[Germany_chris]

http://www.crisptitanium.com/crisp_inglese.htm

Nice gentleman, hooked me up with a builder in Germany who will be welding the fender mounts on my Legend as well as building a new Ti fork this fall

[jpw]

I have seen a ti serotta crack just like a steel bike
Cheers

Yes, I've seen pictures posted on here of cracked ti in the bb junction area. I would want a long life warranty and the feeling that the builder is going to be around to back it up.

[Bertleman]

The best way to do it is to meet your builder if you can. Go to his shop talk bikes get pumped, wait for it to be built and go pick it up

[Rudy]

A great builder might be a not so great fitter. A builder should be suggest fitters that they work with.

Sorry to hijack the post but I totally agree. Dave Wages is doing just that at the end of the month for my steel build. He'll be at Ben's in Milwaukee while Brett measures me. The following day, Dave and I will talk geometry, aesthetics, components, and cosmetics. A bicycle for ever and ever.

Who digs Enve forks?

[cat6]

The Gateway District is a large open air retail, residential and office complex in Salt Lake City, Utah, United States. The complex is centered around the historic Union Pacific Depot in downtown Salt Lake City. It currently contains over 105 stores and restaurants.

[jerome]

Go to Moots
because:
they have an outstanding experience
their bikes are well approved
their stock geometry is the best I have experienced no need for custom here
they master Ti as nobody these days (new RSL)
the ride is absolutely amazing (I have owned Parlee Z1, IF XS, Serotta Legend & Ottrot, Seven Axiom, Moots CR, RSL, CX RSL, MootoX RSL, MootoX YBB...)

if you live in Europe or outside the US go to Rabbit and told them about me Jerome in France.


Go Moots

best

[timto]

Excellent looking forward to the results!

I met with Tom yesterday, it was a great experience. It was a through interview touching on all things bike related. He asked about everything from my feet to if I ever get headaches riding (head to toe). He watched me pedal stationary and made dozens of adjustments with notes, inquired my opinion on sloping top tubes and rising stems (he cared about whether or not I'd be opposed to either). We talked riding style, what I desire, what I expect. We talked about gearing, groups, wheels, paint, family, friends, coffee...life.

Good deal.

Not to say Tom is the only one to do this, I know he's not. In my world and proximity to the great builders that are available, I just happened to be an hour away from him at the time I was looking for something that he's quite good at. If I weren't visiting relatives he'd have been 3000 miles away.

I left the barn a happy guy and am excited to now plan the fun stuff, like paint, components and whatever else.

I greatly appreciate all the input from the forum, I spoke to a few of you on the phone following PM's. The wealth of information available here is priceless. Let's let the thread here die without any continuation on who might be better at what. I don't think it's possible for anyone stuck choosing between many great talents to go wrong.

Thanks everyone!

[sevencyclist]

This, and what Jack said above ("It seems to me that the choices available today are unlimited for people who want top quality titanium frames in both road and mountain") is it in a nutshell. The OP had somehow narrowed it down to Moots and Eriksen, but the list of custom builders in ti is impressive: Serotta, Seven, Independent Fabrication, Lynskey, Spectrum (Tom Kellogg designed, built by Seven), Firefly, Holland, Kish, Strong, Black Sheep—and that's just in the US. Who did I miss? And outside of the US, there's Baum, Crisp, Legend, Passoni, etc.

Every so often there's a thread about "is ti over as a material for building frames?" It will never be a mass-produced item, but imo the choices today are as good as they have ever been.

Kelly Bedford does Ti too.

[rePhil]

Who welds Bedford's Ti frames?

Kelly Bedford does Ti too.

[happycampyer]

Who welds Bedford's Ti frames?Kelly does all of his own fabrication. KB is one the most skilled craftsmen out there—thanks sevencylist for reminding me that he should've been on the list.

[jblande]

Reminds me of the part in the Dirty Dozen...'pretty, very pretty....but can they fight?"

I have a Crisp 29er. Not only was Darren a truely professional businessman, but my experience with his bike has convinced me that he is a master craftsman.

[jerome]

Hi,
Bith for me are different, all depend how you, you intellectualized your relationship with your bike.
Moots
small production builder, they have great technical abilities, the size to make partnership and to have constant feedback on their products to improve.
Everything is made in house. Moots rooster turn over is jul or very low.
They have made great progress and are now at the fore front of what you can find in Ti bikes - they rule with the RSL line up that is (I can tell you I own all of them) outstanding. Their stocks geometries are perfect too and I will advise not to go for a custom - no need.
Ericksen
Much more conventional, what you get is the fruit of one guy experience, your frame is not so much reproduce so you will have the + and the - in equal quantities.
Ericksen can't push the tech and the manufacturing at the level Moots or Seven can do.

Personally I will go for Moots for those reason. You still have the human face of Moots that is not Specialized or Cannondale.
The RSL Vamoots or the MX ride like no other. You can't be wrong.
Leave the dealer behind if this guy likes bikes just to have something to sell.

To be fully honest with you I am in the process to open a boutique bike shop here in France close to Mt Ventoux in Lubéron. As one of my very first customer I might be able to get you something that will please you and it might be the opportunity for you to ride a cycling mecca.

best


Jerome

[soulspinner]

I had a discussion with Kent Eriksen and he took an RSL Moots and weighed it against his own same sized frame and the Eriksen is lighter. Dont forget Kent was a founder of Moots and manipulates tubing and matches it to the rider where Moots uses Reynolds for their RSL. Kent Eriksen has been working with ti and riding ti for along time. His frame is custom and remember Moots gets a premium for custom geo. Just sayin...........

[FlaRider]

I had a discussion with Kent Eriksen and he took an RSL Moots and weighed it against his own same sized frame and the Eriksen is lighter. Dont forget Kent was a founder of Moots and manipulates tubing and matches it to the rider where Moots uses Reynolds for their RSL. Kent Eriksen has been working with ti and riding ti for along time. His frame is custom and remember Moots gets a premium for custom geo. Just sayin...........

+1

That is the reason I decided to go with Kent. I am expecting my frame on Tuesday. Can't wait. Kent and Katie are awesome to work with, BTW.

[thinpin]

Incoming here too from Kent for the same reasons and then some...

[oldpotatoe]

I had a discussion with Kent Eriksen and he took an RSL Moots and weighed it against his own same sized frame and the Eriksen is lighter. Dont forget Kent was a founder of Moots and manipulates tubing and matches it to the rider where Moots uses Reynolds for their RSL. Kent Eriksen has been working with ti and riding ti for along time. His frame is custom and remember Moots gets a premium for custom geo. Just sayin...........

Did Kent have a bike you could ride? Like a demo bike? Think that's a 'little' more important than how much a frame weighs. Did you do an extensive ride on a RSL? I think that's how you decide, subjective ride quality, IMHO. If ya like the Kent-buy that.

Moots matches as well to the rider. Not as extensively as a one man show that does less than 100 frames a year tho. Pretty easy for him to build the way he does VS a frame maker doing 1200 frames a year. Different biz models. Plus he is direct, no pesky bike shops, thanks, so bigger margins to the builder makes custom and final price a bit lower. I'm surprised Kent has to have a RSL, to sell his frames tho. AS if the RSL is the 'standard' he is trying to work from. Seems as a small builder, he is plenty busy, as is Moots(best year ever in 2011, great 2012 so far...MX Divide is seeling very well).

[jr59]

All add one more thing to this old thread.

Not that it matters one bit, because Cat6 ordered a Spectrum thru TK and should be getting close...hint...hint!

All or most of the builders stated on this thread can and do build very good Ti bikes. Some think one way, some another, and some like Holland and his exogrid, another. But all can make you a very nice riding bike!

No one has made one that anyone could call better, and not get a huge discussion going!


Did I add that Cat 6's time is getting shorter! Come on Tom build his bike! Mine too!

[soulspinner]

Did Kent have a bike you could ride? Like a demo bike? Think that's a 'little' more important than how much a frame weighs. Did you do an extensive ride on a RSL? I think that's how you decide, subjective ride quality, IMHO. If ya like the Kent-buy that.

Moots matches as well to the rider. Not as extensively as a one man show that does less than 100 frames a year tho. Pretty easy for him to build the way he does VS a frame maker doing 1200 frames a year. Different biz models. Plus he is direct, no pesky bike shops, thanks, so bigger margins to the builder makes custom and final price a bit lower. I'm surprised Kent has to have a RSL, to sell his frames tho. AS if the RSL is the 'standard' he is trying to work from. Seems as a small builder, he is plenty busy, as is Moots(best year ever in 2011, great 2012 so far...MX Divide is seeling very well).

My response was really to highlight that those who have made the mystique of Moots their mantra are mistaken if they think nobody else can build a frame made FOR THEM as well.

[roguedog]

Wow. TK only has a 2-3 month wait?

[Joachim]

Wow. TK only has a 2-3 month wait?

Not as far as I know. It ranges for the Ti frames from 4-6 months. My frame was on my doorstep in 5 months from the day of deposit.

[jr59]

Not as far as I know. It ranges for the Ti frames from 4-6 months. My frame was on my doorstep in 5 months from the day of deposit.


10 weeks for the first one, I was told about 12 weeks for the second.

It's not a set time, but normally a very good turn around!

[oldpotatoe]

My response was really to highlight that those who have made the mystique of Moots their mantra are mistaken if they think nobody else can build a frame made FOR THEM as well.

Many really good ti frame builders, and Kent is one of them. But my point is that I can't really think of a frame builder that builds 1000-1500 frames a year does that w/o a dealer network. MUCH different biz models.

I find it 'interesting' the founder of Moots, that sold Moots and then left Moots, still being in Steamboat, has a RSL to hold up when he is trying to sell his frame. Seems like a 'contentious' relationship, seems strange. IMHO. Wonder is he has a Parlee frame to compare as well....

[rePhil]

My original question was: who tig welds Mr. Bedford's bikes?

From his website:Tig Comp Frames

K. Bedford Customs Tig Comp Frames are very lightweight, competition oriented steel frames with carbon forks perfectly suited to the serious competitor or weekend warrior/club rider. KBC Tig welded frames are designed and constructed with the same level of skill and care as are all K. Bedford frames. All design work and the bulk of the handwork is done by Kelly with the Tig welding being done by one of the industries finest, most experienced welders.



Kelly does all of his own fabrication. KB is one the most skilled craftsmen out there—thanks sevencylist for reminding me that he should've been on the list.

[Ahneida Ride]

Actually Ti now comprises a major fraction of Kelly's work.

[rePhil]

Who is doing the welding?

Actually Ti now comprises a major fraction of Kelly's work.

[veloraptor]

I had a discussion with Kent Eriksen and he took an RSL Moots and weighed it against his own same sized frame and the Eriksen is lighter. Dont forget Kent was a founder of Moots and manipulates tubing and matches it to the rider where Moots uses Reynolds for their RSL. Just sayin...........

Sorry, but I doubt they were the same exact geometry or same stiffness (same diameter tubes) frames being compared. The Moots RSL uses butted ti and the Eriksen does not. No way a comparable stiffness straight gauge ti frame will be lighter than a same geometry butted ti frame assuming overall frame stiffness is equal. The Moots RSL also uses dropouts that have been hollowed out, and very small diameter 6/4 ti seatstays. Kent's manipulation of his straight gauge tubing involves mostly a very, very artful bending of the stays, but that bending doesn't make the frame lighter. Either Moots or Eriksen can build one a ti dream machine. If you were at NAHBS, and inspected Kent's work last month it was incredible. Superb welds, dead straight frames, superb stuff. Moots was the same, and so was Funk. But a straight gauge Eriksen is not going to weigh less than a same geometry and stiffness RSL frame. I do find it comical though the emphasis that amateur riders place on small bike differences of a couple ounces or even a few pounds. In the big scheme of things that weight difference means virtually nothing and is more about bragging rights than seriously real world cycling implications.

[51mondays]

here's a stupid reason - i like the moots graphics better.


you can get a moots quicker, but you'll feel all warm and fuzzy after working with a custom builder i bet - probably worth the wait in the long run.

[51mondays]

Is Kent welding or is he sharing that job with employees (presumably ex-moots)? One guy can't do everything, i guess.

Both brands have such great provenance ....maybe Kent has the edge there

[cat6]

The Gateway District is a large open air retail, residential and office complex in Salt Lake City, Utah, United States. The complex is centered around the historic Union Pacific Depot in downtown Salt Lake City. It currently contains over 105 stores and restaurants.

[soulspinner]

Sorry, but I doubt they were the same exact geometry or same stiffness (same diameter tubes) frames being compared. The Moots RSL uses butted ti and the Eriksen does not. No way a comparable stiffness straight gauge ti frame will be lighter than a same geometry butted ti frame assuming overall frame stiffness is equal. The Moots RSL also uses dropouts that have been hollowed out, and very small diameter 6/4 ti seatstays. Kent's manipulation of his straight gauge tubing involves mostly a very, very artful bending of the stays, but that bending doesn't make the frame lighter. Either Moots or Eriksen can build one a ti dream machine. If you were at NAHBS, and inspected Kent's work last month it was incredible. Superb welds, dead straight frames, superb stuff. Moots was the same, and so was Funk. But a straight gauge Eriksen is not going to weigh less than a same geometry and stiffness RSL frame. I do find it comical though the emphasis that amateur riders place on small bike differences of a couple ounces or even a few pounds. In the big scheme of things that weight difference means virtually nothing and is more about bragging rights than seriously real world cycling implications.

Actually I think straight guage will be stiffer in the same diameter. The butted tubing needs more circumference to make the tube as stiff.

[soulspinner]

Is Kent welding or is he sharing that job with employees (presumably ex-moots)? One guy can't do everything, i guess.

Both brands have such great provenance ....maybe Kent has the edge there

Kent stole Moots welder, cant remember his name...........he is incredible......

[buddybikes]

Take a spring vacation to Boston and get fit by Kevin at Firefly!!!!

Once you walk in their shop, you won't want to leave, except with bike in hand (8 mth wait however).

They had an open house last Sat eve for us local, fantastic trendy party!

[oldpotatoe]

Kent stole Moots welder, cant remember his name...........he is incredible......

'Stole'? Interesting comment. Do ya suppose he keeps him locked up in a small room, and lets him out to weld?
Brad was his name, actually left Moots quite a while ago. Don't know where he went before he 'landed' at erikson. Was a kid when he started at Moots, had a talent for ti welding, rode to production manager, left, not sure why.

Maybe he's happier in a small, essentially one man shop, small output, direct to consumer, model. Lots of flexibility there.

Butch is the main production guy these days, times change, people move on. Look at the Divide, the tubing, manipulation, that's Butch's baby.

BTW-Moots had another record setting year in 2012. If somebody would like to know my stats with Moots this year, PM me.

For above and ti tube stiffness..if the diameter is the same, the circumference is the same, the 'stiffness' is the same. The major reason to butt ti tubes is to make them lighter unless the tube wall thickness is already thin, as in as thin at the ends as the center, non butted, section. BUT you need a really good welder to be able to safely weld thin walled ti tubing. Some have 'it', some don't.

[Mikej]

Did Kent have a bike you could ride? Like a demo bike? Think that's a 'little' more important than how much a frame weighs. Did you do an extensive ride on a RSL? I think that's how you decide, subjective ride quality, IMHO. If ya like the Kent-buy that.

Moots matches as well to the rider. Not as extensively as a one man show that does less than 100 frames a year tho. Pretty easy for him to build the way he does VS a frame maker doing 1200 frames a year. Different biz models. Plus he is direct, no pesky bike shops, thanks, so bigger margins to the builder makes custom and final price a bit lower. I'm surprised Kent has to have a RSL, to sell his frames tho. AS if the RSL is the 'standard' he is trying to work from. Seems as a small builder, he is plenty busy, as is Moots(best year ever in 2011, great 2012 so far...MX Divide is seeling very well).

Not to drudge, but not many custom builders have YOUR bike, that is why they make it FOR YOU. But I am pretty sure Kents shop (the original Moots shop) is below a shop that retails Moots, so maybe he borrowed it. I actually feel he has done pretty well, when you meet the guy you understand his build bike for people comment. As for the welding, Kent mitters and tacks every frame, but Brad (PREVIOUS) or Chris Moore (CURRENT) welds.

[oldpotatoe]

Not to drudge, but not many custom builders have YOUR bike, that is why they make it FOR YOU. but I am pretty sure Kents shop (the original Moots shop) is below a shop that retails Moots. I actually feel he has done pretty well, when you meet the guy you understand his build bike for people, not to sell comment. As for the welding, Kent mitters and tacks every frame, but Brad (PREVIOUS) or Chris Moore (CURRENT) welds.

Thought Brad just came to Kent's shop-what I heard from NAHBS..

Don't know where Kent is, never been to Steamboat.

Kent is doing great, is what he wants to be in this bike frame world. But much different biz model, Kent and the other mid-size ti frame builders.

Why I think he sold Moots and moved on. I think he's comfortable in the model he now has.

[Mikej]

Thought Brad just came to Kent's shop-what I heard from NAHBS..

Don't know where Kent is, never been to Steamboat.

Kent is doing great, is what he wants to be in this bike frame world. But much different biz model, Kent and the other mid-size ti frame builders.

Why I think he sold Moots and moved on. I think he's comfortable in the model he now has.

Yeah, I could have the names mixed up. But you're correct, just different biz models, both stellar bikes.

[weisan]

I couldn't have gone wrong with any of the builders or companies mentioned in this thread, but ultimately I ended up with a Spectrum.

Tom Kellogg was a pleasure to work with the bike just goes and goes.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u141/lukerulz/Bike/secret%20bike/00049AE6-0EAA-4423-8CD8-0D2DFC9261B6-775-0000003FC19CCB70_zps83808e39.jpg
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u141/lukerulz/Bike/secret%20bike/0EF6E0C3-7D3F-49EB-9899-4E70EDF46CBC-775-0000003FBBCD4522_zps2975b440.jpg
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u141/lukerulz/Bike/secret%20bike/ED985356-9CD3-4A78-A068-8BB47A27BD34-775-0000003FD81BF931_zpsd05b5c1f.jpg
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u141/lukerulz/Bike/secret%20bike/2ACCA01E-E720-4A22-A689-D9297733BAA9-775-000000452D8ACE3A_zpsdb4288b8.jpg

Excellent choice. Flawless execution.

http://alicehui.com/serotta/kahuna/kahuna_spectrum.jpg

Not mine, kahuna-pal's.

[93legendti]

I had a coupled a Spectrum ti- simply an awesome bike to ride. I downsized in 2009 and that had the best resale value, so I sold it. I would get another, or a Serotta Legend, in a heartbeat.

[MadRocketSci]

tube stiffness in bending depends on mainly three things - tube diameter, material stiffness (young's modulus), and wall thickness. The first is the biggest effect, as bending stiffness goes with the cube of diameter. The other two are linearly dependent, ie, increase thickness 20% and you get 20% more stiffness. So, if you have two tubes of the same diameter, same material, but one is butted thinner in a significant section, it will be less stiff. In bikes, the bending stresses in the middle of the top/down tubes are lower than the ends, so butting probably has a subtle effect on stiffness, probably not worth worrying about. torsion might be a different story.

[bobswire]

Kinda like asking someones opinion if you should marry Nancy or Maria without really knowing you or the prospective bride(s).

What I can say without any hesitation, you can't go wrong with either.

I have the best of both worlds, I have Kents Moots he had built for himself in 2002. It's 55cm x55cm and fits me to a T.

http://oi46.tinypic.com/n4dquc.jpg