36-hole Radial Lacing...yea or nay?

[kohlboto]

okay, so I am about to embark on my first wheel building adventure for my incoming Hampsten and I'm looking for some input on the front wheel. The rear is going to be a Sturmey Archer hub mated to a Velocity A23 (36-hole, 3-cross) but for the front wheel, I have a 36-hole Sturmey Archer HBT hub that is also going to be laced to an A23. I'm contemplating a radial lacing pattern for the front so my question, then, is what are the pros or cons of going radial vs a standard 3-cross with a higher hole-count wheel?

[deanster]

okay, so I am about to embark on my first wheel building adventure for my incoming Hampsten and I'm looking for some input on the front wheel. The rear is going to be a Sturmey Archer hub mated to a Velocity A23 (36-hole, 3-cross) but for the front wheel, I have a 36-hole Sturmey Archer HBT hub that is also going to be laced to an A23. I'm contemplating a radial lacing pattern for the front so my question, then, is what are the pros or cons of going radial vs a standard 3-cross with a higher hole-count wheel?

Don't! The rim is not designed for radial lacing. The spoke tension you need to keep a radial laced wheel stable will eventually pull the spokes out and or crack the rim. If you want it to last go 3X. If you want sexy buy a wheel designed for the radial lacing with good stout bladed spokes. Radial lacing buys you nothing but a weaker wheel

[old_fat_and_slow]

.

[fatallightning]

Don't! The rim is not designed for radial lacing. The spoke tension you need to keep a radial laced wheel stable will eventually pull the spokes out and or crack the rim. If you want it to last go 3X. If you want sexy buy a wheel designed for the radial lacing with good stout bladed spokes. Radial lacing buys you nothing but a weaker wheel

Not to question whether you know what you're talking about, but do you know what you're talking about?

Radial lacing doesn't inherently need more tension then a cross pattern, in fact, it would take slightly less because of the slightly shoter spoke length. Why would a radial front wheel need more tension to be stable? Again, a radial front wheel will be lighter, and stronger then a crossed wheel because of said shorter spoke length and the greater bracing angle, assuming you lace heads in. Rims are agnostic to lacing pattern in regards to failing, it's tension, either in surplus or deficit which kills a rim.

The hub is where radial lacing can sometimes be a concern, not all are stout enough in the flange area. Consult your hub maker. I'm not sure if you're confusing the fact that some radial spoked wheels are built to high tensions because of low spoke count, but that is a result of the low spoke count, not the lacing pattern.

[Bob Loblaw]

This.

I am a huge proponent of radial lacing. There are only two reasons to lace in a cross pattern: torsional load (as in a rear wheel or if using a disc or drum brake), or hub incompatability.

I haven't read Jobst Brandt, but I do believe radial lacing actually increases lateral stiffness by 13% over cross lacing. It's also more aerodynamic and slightly, but measurably, lighter.

I always try to build my front wheels radial, depending on the hub, and I also lace radially on the non-drive side at the rear. On one of my bikes, I'm currently riding a set of Mavic rims laced to Shimano Ultegra 9500 hubs laced that way. They're excellent, sturdy, true, responsive.

Sheldon Brown explains it all better than I could (scroll down to where it says "Spoke Patterns": http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

BL

Not to question whether you know what you're talking about, but do you know what you're talking about?

Radial lacing doesn't inherently need more tension then a cross pattern, in fact, it would take slightly less because of the slightly shoter spoke length. Why would a radial front wheel need more tension to be stable? Again, a radial front wheel will be lighter, and stronger then a crossed wheel because of said shorter spoke length and the greater bracing angle, assuming you lace heads in. Rims are agnostic to lacing pattern in regards to failing, it's tension, either in surplus or deficit which kills a rim.

The hub is where radial lacing can sometimes be a concern, not all are stout enough in the flange area. Consult your hub maker. I'm not sure if you're confusing the fact that some radial spoked wheels are built to high tensions because of low spoke count, but that is a result of the low spoke count, not the lacing pattern.

[buldogge]

I'm getting ready to re-lace my Gipiemme wheels this week. The front will be using the original hub and Sapim Lasers. It is 24H and was laced radially, heads out.

Question...Should I consider lacing it heads in this time?

Opinions??

TIA
-Mark in St. Louis

[wallymann]

dont listen to the naysayers.

its a 36-spoke wheel for chrissakes, with so little load per spoke i see no downside unless you ride like a jackass and jump off kerbs and stuff.

a high spoke count radial wheel looks cool as heck anyways!

okay, so I am about to embark on my first wheel building adventure for my incoming Hampsten and I'm looking for some input on the front wheel. The rear is going to be a Sturmey Archer hub mated to a Velocity A23 (36-hole, 3-cross) but for the front wheel, I have a 36-hole Sturmey Archer HBT hub that is also going to be laced to an A23. I'm contemplating a radial lacing pattern for the front so my question, then, is what are the pros or cons of going radial vs a standard 3-cross with a higher hole-count wheel?

[cp43]

I'd say go 3x, just for the looks, it would match the rear better that way. IMHO, radial fronts look right with rear wheels that are 2x on one side, and radial on the other. Not so much with a 3x rear, especially with 36 spokes. However, if you like the look of radial, go for it. :banana:

I agree with the others that say there's no structural reason not to go radial though, assuming your front hub is designed for it.

Whatever you decide enjoy the ride :beer:

Chris

[Kontact]

I can't see how it could possibly matter with that many spokes.

While it is much contested, a think having a cross pattern where spokes touch distributes shock in the wheel better than radial lacing. Radial is "stronger" in that it will not deform at the stresses that a crossed spoke wheel will, but a crossed wheel has a bit more plasticity, which is good for ride and durability.

I like 2x front wheels.

Question...Should I consider lacing it heads in this time? Heads in puts a lot of stress on the flange.

[Jaq]

The only thing I'd add is that some hub makers won't warrantee a hub that's been laced radially. The older Campy hubs' instructions, for instance, all had a big "DO NOT" symbol over a picture of a radially laced hub. That said, lots of folks laced 'em radially in the front, occasionally on the non-drive in back.

So check with your hub-maker.

[deanster]

Not to question whether you know what you're talking about, but do you know what you're talking about?

Radial lacing doesn't inherently need more tension then a cross pattern, in fact, it would take slightly less because of the slightly shoter spoke length. Why would a radial front wheel need more tension to be stable? Again, a radial front wheel will be lighter, and stronger then a crossed wheel because of said shorter spoke length and the greater bracing angle, assuming you lace heads in. Rims are agnostic to lacing pattern in regards to failing, it's tension, either in surplus or deficit which kills a rim.

The hub is where radial lacing can sometimes be a concern, not all are stout enough in the flange area. Consult your hub maker. I'm not sure if you're confusing the fact that some radial spoked wheels are built to high tensions because of low spoke count, but that is a result of the low spoke count, not the lacing pattern.

I appreciate your great intellectual wisdom regarding wheel building I stand aside in wonder at your perspicacity...just keep it above the low brow name calling ok : )

[Fixed]

Nay
it will look funky
IMHO
Cheers

[thwart]

nay
it will look funky
imho
cheers

1+

[oldpotatoe]

okay, so I am about to embark on my first wheel building adventure for my incoming Hampsten and I'm looking for some input on the front wheel. The rear is going to be a Sturmey Archer hub mated to a Velocity A23 (36-hole, 3-cross) but for the front wheel, I have a 36-hole Sturmey Archer HBT hub that is also going to be laced to an A23. I'm contemplating a radial lacing pattern for the front so my question, then, is what are the pros or cons of going radial vs a standard 3-cross with a higher hole-count wheel?

No pros, less reliable wheel as a 'con'. Lace it 3 cross, IMHO. Has nothing to do with the stress on the rim. The tension would be the same whether it be radial or 2 or 3 cross, if built correctly, but a crossed spoke wheelset is a stronger wheel.

[ergott]

Wow, what a read.

36 radial? No. The biggest strain is on the hub. The only 36 hole hub I know of that has no pattern limitations is a Phil Wood. It has really beefy flanges. The larger the flange diameter is, the more material there is in between the spoke holes. I'm not talking about hubs with cutouts because that changes things.

You still use the same recommended tension so the point above that states that there is less stress per spoke is incorrect.

The rim doesn't know if you are lacing it radially or with a cross pattern so that's not the reason for recommending against it.

Spoke length has nothing to do with tension either.

Yes, a heads in radial patten is the laterally stiffest pattern. It is no weaker or less reliable than any other pattern for a front wheel if the hub was designed to handle to different loads. Once torque is a factor (rear hubs/disc brake hubs) the equation changes. I prefer to cross both sides in those cases.

I build front wheels with a cross pattern and radially. It depends on the components used and the spoke count.

[bambam]

Since this is your first wheelset I would say 3-cross.
I think it would look better while matching the back wheel.
I have only built 10 wheels to date, all 3 -cross, and I feel I learn a little more each wheel.
Umltimately it is up to you. I think the stress on the hub and rim aren't worth the look. But this may just be me.
I have some radial laced front wheels and I like the feel of the cross pattern better.

[Grant McLean]

Wow, what a read.

36 radial? No. The biggest strain is on the hub. The only 36 hole hub I know of that has no pattern limitations is a Phil Wood. It has really beefy flanges. The larger the flange diameter is, the more material there is in between the spoke holes. I'm not talking about hubs with cutouts because that changes things.

You still use the same recommended tension so the point above that states that there is less stress per spoke is incorrect.

The rim doesn't know if you are lacing it radially or with a cross pattern so that's not the reason for recommending against it.

Spoke length has nothing to do with tension either.

Yes, a heads in radial patten is the laterally stiffest pattern. It is no weaker or less reliable than any other pattern for a front wheel if the hub was designed to handle to different loads. Once torque is a factor (rear hubs/disc brake hubs) the equation changes. I prefer to cross both sides in those cases.

I build front wheels with a cross pattern and radially. It depends on the components used and the spoke count.

While I agree in principle with what you've said -
there is no reason you can't radial lace the specific hub he is asking about.
It's a +60mm 'fixie' type high flange hub, so the holes are plenty far enough apart
to lace radially.


http://www.sturmey-archer.com/products/hubs/cid/2/id/53/specs/1

[ergott]

While I agree in principle with what you've said -
there is no reason you can't radial lace the specific hub he is asking about.
It's a +60mm 'fixie' type high flange hub, so the holes are plenty far enough apart
to lace radially.


http://www.sturmey-archer.com/products/hubs/cid/2/id/53/specs/1

I haven't worked with the hubs. Are the flanges thick enough? They should also have a chamfer to prevent premature cracking as well.

Either way, we are on the same page.

[OperaLover]

Easy to lace, too. No worries bout going over and under. I had a C-record hub with oval spokes an a Campy Omega strada. Beuatiful! Worked great until I caught a stick in it! Spokes broke as did the stick. Flange held but it was deformed where they pulled. Good thing it was a stout steel fork, too. 3-cross might have survived. might not have.

I would be more worried about the rim cracking without eyelets.