Scandium?

[Kylide]

I have been seeing other people on different forums posting about how scandium frames are becoming more uncommon. I was just wondering why, if this is true, companies have decided to move away from scandium?

[oldpotatoe]

I have been seeing other people on different forums posting about how scandium frames are becoming more uncommon. I was just wondering why, if this is true, companies have decided to move away from scandium?

Scandium is just an additive to aluminum..very small amounts, .5%?? Makes the metal stronger, thinner walls with similar strength but no all 'scandium' frames. I think because relatively expensive when compared to (asian)carbon, carbon, everywhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandium

Not 'really' a form of aluminum but additive to some aluminums.

[dave thompson]

I think aluminum frames, by and large, are less common now and scandium is a form of aluminum. More popular in firearms than bikes.

[Rada]

I don't think they were ever that common to begin with.

[jlwdm]

+1

Jeff

[Kylide]

I don't think they were ever that common to begin with.

I think my wording is a bit off... I just heard that scandium aluminum frames are pretty awesome, I have never ridden one so my references are second hand. I guess I am asking why they seem to be getting phased out if they are indeed good frames. If anyone knows of any articles I can used to research more I would appreciate it.

[ultratoad]

Pegoretti Love #3 is a Scandium frameset.... Built for racing with a very nice ride.... He sells a lot of them.... Very nice frame....

[John H.]

They are awesome. With scandium you can produce a frame that comes closer to carbon in terms of weight than anything, and it rides nice too.
Reasons they are rare:
1.)Only aluminum builders work with scandium
2.)Easton no longer makes scandium tubing in the USA so it is way harder to get and minumums are higher for builders.
3.)For bike companies a scandium frame is not expensive or profitable enough. They make way more $ by making everyone think they need a carbon bike. Why would they want to sell a $5000 scandium bike when they can sell a $10-11k carbon bike.
That said- a nice 6000 or 7000 series aluminum frame is 90% of what a scandium frame would be- cost is low. Go to Rocklobster or Primus Mootry if you want something like this- they cost very little and are custom!

[Plum Hill]

One custom builder I spoke with claimed Scandium frames were "throwaway" after two years. He said I should go steel or aluminum if I wanted to keep it long term.

[ultraman6970]

Why?? there is a reason for that?

[UKBROOKLYN]

Look I don't understand calling an aluminum bike that has .5 percent Scandium in the alloy a Scandium Bike..

It should be called something else.. On that rational a Titanium bike with 5 % aluminum and whatever Vanadium should be called an aluminum Bike.

However the tiny amount of scandium does have a big effect rendering a material that can be made thinner for the same strength and a little more flex.. Thus a light comfy bike..
Why not so many scandium bikes ?? World production of scandium per annum is approximately 2 to 4 tones of oxide reduced to 800 lbs of the element.

To put this in perspective world production of Gold is about 3 million pounds

[Bob Loblaw]

Apparently aluminum treated with scandium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandium) has a shorter fatigue life, and becomes more flexible in a shorter period of use. That is just what I have heard, I have no direct experience with a scandium bike. But as these things go, whether it's true or not, having that reputation is probably enough to stop people from buying it.

BL

Why?? there is a reason for that?

[rustychisel]

so many half truths and misperceptions...

Yes, Scandium is an alloy of alu and the percentage added is very small. Yes, Scandium frames are lovely and light, typically under 1200g, and they're plenty stiff and last well, thin walled tubing notwithstanding. They will break eventually, that's the nature of the beast... mine is over 10 years old now, has been ridden by Mark Renshaw and Graeme Browne, and me. I'm the softy of the trio.

No, Scandium does not weld into a lightweight frame which can approach current carbon models for weight, not even near, and that's one reason why the market went away from them, and other alu frames.

The market: pursues lightweight, has been told repeatedly it wants carbon fibre, and bike manufacturers can supply CF frames easily, comparatively cheaply, and quickly, with little or no manufacturing expertise and associated labour costs (leaving aside specialist producers like Crumpton).

An artisan is required to weld Scandium framsets, the tubes are very thin (0.4mm at their thinnest) and there is little margin for error. It's time consuming, and therefore costly. The end result is sublime. But expensive.

The problem for Scandium alu frames was one of timing also, They came when the market was changing from alu to CF and in trying to compete the alu manufacturers were trying to make ever lighter frames, many of which broke... think U2 tubing, Starship etc

To my mind Scandium was something a lot better than simple lightweight tubing, a little bit special, and trust me on this, is doesn't get flexible or lose its zip. I would agree they were never particularly common in the first place; the Easton tubing was used by a relative handful of builders to make high end race bikes, which is why a Merckx branded Domo Farm Frites team SC is such a highly sought after bike even today.

[CunegoFan]

Look I don't understand calling an aluminum bike that has .5 percent Scandium in the alloy a Scandium Bike..

It should be called something else..

Scamdium.

[rustychisel]

Scamdium.


Have you owned a SC bike? Ridden one extensively?

[CaptStash]

I had a Felt F1R, which was their top of the line frame in 2004. It was built with an Easton Scandium tube set and the frame came in at 1100 grams, which was as light or lighter than many carbon frames of the day. The bike was quite stiff and very fun to ride. Very lively and responsive.

I had an in depth talk about the bike not long ago (just before I sold it) with a Felt rep. I ran into. He told me that they had a problem with the bkes because they were so hard to weld. They had a lot of them fail NDT (non-destructive testing for you non industrial types) prior to being shipped, so the bikes wound up being quite costly to produce. Nevertheless, they kept building the F-15 for several years after the F1-R was discontinued. The F-15 differed only in that it had carbon seat stays, which supposedly made the bike a little comfier to ride, but also added several ounces (if you care about that).

My frame apparently was desirable enough that I was able to easily sell it on eBay last year for a bit more than I paid for it, and got nearly what people were paying for newer Felt F1 carbon frames.

It was good stuff in its day, and as an earlier post mentioned, it's hard to argue about it when you look at a bike like a Peg Love #3. I would still have mine if it had fit me better.

CaptStash....

[Louis]

If you read the Easton marketing brochure on AL + scandium it says that it doesn't really make AL stronger overall, but improves the grain structure in the HAZ (heat affected zone - ie at the welds).

[rustychisel]

true, and it also says the micrograining allows an alloy which can be drawn thinner for comparable strength. I'm no metallurgist but assume there might have been some science behind it, and I'm willing to suggest those pesky Russkies had a very good reason for using SC for their missile programme.

[fourflys]

One custom builder I spoke with claimed Scandium frames were "throwaway" after two years. He said I should go steel or aluminum if I wanted to keep it long term.


ask Paul Sadoff at Rock Lobster if scandium is throwaway... he's been racing his personal bike hard on the cross circuit for at least 5 yrs now...

I had a scandium Salsa Las Cruces and that's one back I regret selling...

[progetto]

I've built plenty of scandium frames, plenty raced by professionals with tens of thousands of km's put on them each year. We didn't have any durability issues though when you are working at the cutting edge as far as weight is concerned you are sure to have some failures, nature of the beast. It isn't any harder to work with than other 7000 series alloys, it does have a few unique processes but they are well documented by Easton. Easton stopped producing aluminium tubing when carbon became the go to guy, so we lost a great frame building resource.
Acel tubing (former Cannondale tubing supplier)are about to release a range of aluminium frame tubes which will be good news for those that like to work in aluminium.

[fogrider]

well, I've ridden 4 scandium bikes. they are among the stiffest bikes I've ridden. My scandium rock lobster is my 16 pound climbing bike...and that is with pedals, cages, and bike computer. and I've been ridding it for about 4 years. Paul builds a great riding bike and he did say that easton has moved the production of the tubes overseas and he can't get the shaped tubing but I would not hesitate in getting another one from paul.

[Plum Hill]

I believe my information came from Rock Lobster.

[fourflys]

I believe my information came from Rock Lobster.

well as I said, I'd be surprised since Paul has raced the piss outta his scandium bike for several years... maybe he was talking in comparison to his steel bikes...

[fogrider]

well as I said, I'd be surprised since Paul has raced the piss outta his scandium bike for several years... maybe he was talking in comparison to his steel bikes...

yeah, paul has said that to me too. but paul is pretty reserved about his bikes and he likes to think he builds bikes that can take a pounding and still perform. and yes, he races a scandium cross bike for years.

[majl]

One custom builder I spoke with claimed Scandium frames were "throwaway" after two years. He said I should go steel or aluminum if I wanted to keep it long term.
Does this sound like a guy who builds bikes to throw away after two years?

http://overopinionatedframebuilder.blogspot.com/2011/10/were-not-happy-until-youre-not-happy.html

"I still believe strongly in the material I can no longer get."

FWIW, I don't own a Rock Lobster, but I would certainly not hesitate to grab one of Paul's CX race bikes if the opportunity came along. I do however, own 3 scandium bikes by other makers: road, cross, and MTB. They are all over two years old. Maybe I should throw them away. :rolleyes:

[Rada]

I own a 1999 Santana Stylus, built of Easton SC7000. The Stylus is an experimental single handbuilt at Santana's facilities in Cali in collaboration with Easton. I may be wrong and if so someone please correct me, but I beleive this was the first frame built with SC7000. The 54cm frame I have weights just 1000g, is a great ride, and is still going strong.