I have a problem with NAHBS

[phcollard]

I guess "handmade" doesn't have the same meaning to everyone :rolleyes:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/03/bikes-and-tech/the-torqued-wrench-the-myth-of-origin_211105

[Viper]

Thanks for posting the article. It was well written and the organizers, manufacturers and exhibitors should be able to endure a critique.

"The calculation of value is not related strictly to performance per dollar. We put a price on relationships, on knowledge of the process and the people behind a product. That’s where the Myth of Origin fits in" and "To put it simply, origin adds value. The Myth of Origin makes money. Don’t expect it to disappear anytime soon."

The statements above resonated. I'm okay with a show choosing it's niche. It's North America and the show organizers have the freedom to generate a specific showcase. We can choose to attend or not.

Also, "the vast seas of off-the-bike cycling caps, or even the chainring tattoos that are, highly ironically, often actual tattoos. That whole offbeat culture is endearing, if a bit comical at times"
+1/Like

NAHBS: Mission Statement
NAHBS showcases the talents of individuals around the world whose art form is the bicycle. It aims to be a meeting point–both online and in person–for frame builders and consumers looking for custom-made bikes, for the sharing of ideas, and the promotion of a special industry with a rich history dating back to 1819.

I suggest to anyone who wants an Eyetalian Bike, handmade from North America, to check out my man:

MIKE DE SALVO
A visit by the 7-Eleven team to his home town in 1985 inspired 12 year-old Mike DeSalvo to get a job at the local bike shop. That was the beginning of his career. He took frame building classes at the United Bicycle Institute (UBI) in 1991, and graduated from there to become a bike/ski bum in Colorado. During the late ‘90s he returned to the UBI as a teacher, and in 1999 DeSalvo began to practice what he preached in building his first frame. In 2001 a serious hobby became a fulltime job, and DeSalvo now builds about 120 frames a year. Known as one of ‘the next wave’ of builders, DeSalvo has made frames for some of ‘the next wave’ of cycling champions, including Barry Wicks and Carl Decker.

www.desalvocycles.com

NAHBS Awards
2008: Best TIG Welded Frame
2006: 3rd place Titanium frame
2005: 1st place TIG welded frame


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[br995]

I've often found it curious that non-North American builders, and even non-North American component manufacturers, have been allowed into the show while many North American builders have been excluded.

The author's suggestion of renaming it the "North American Unique Bicycle Show" certainly sounds more appropriate - though soon they may want to drop the "North American" bit.

[cfox]

The article is stupid because its very premise is stupid, that "origin adds value." If that were true, hand built bike from the US would cost more than top-end Asia bikes. But they don't, for the most part. The population of folks who poo-poo 'soulless Asian carbon' is pretty small. The origin might add some cache, but builders here seemingly can't tap into that and charge more for their wares. The part about mustaches, tats, and off bike bike caps was funny, though.

[54ny77]

Well I have a problem with Velo News.

Last time they were really good, as in reporting actual News relating to Velo'ing, was around the time the shifter/brake lever came out.

[br995]

The article is stupid because its very premise is stupid, that "origin adds value." If that were true, hand built bike from the US would cost more than top-end Asia bikes. But they don't, for the most part. The population of folks who poo-poo 'soulless Asian carbon' is pretty small. The origin might add some cache, but builders here seemingly can't tap into that and charge more for their wares.

I disagree with you. First, you're comparing (in general) two different things - custom metal frames made in the US versus carbon frames from overseas. If you were to market two identical bikes, one made by a builder in the US and another by an anonymous factory in Taiwan, I think people would be willing to pay more for US made.

Second - people value the close relationships they develop with their custom builders. This is something they don't have when they buy SEA mass-produced. That relationship is a tangible reason why where your bike comes from can add value(/cost) to it. That is, the fact that you can interact with the person making your bike makes most high-end customers willing to pay more; they are getting a custom level of service in addition to product itself. You could be pedantic and argue that that's not strictly origin-based, but I think it is - your bike is coming from a person or company that has direct customer interactions rather than through an R&D shell fronting an OEM factory.

[phcollard]

Where I have a problem with this article is when the author says basically "hey someone at the Giant factory lays carbon fibre in a mold with his hands so this frame too is handmade"!

While it may sound correct semantically to me this is a wrong understanding of "handmade". Let me know if I'm wrong. Handmade is often similar to "made by an artisan". That's what it means to me and probably to 98% of the population no?

I like to the idea that someone has the skills and experience to design, build and finish something in his one man operation or in a very small workshop. Be it a guitar, a garden gnome or a bicycle frame. I don't know if it's the romantic aspect of things that attracts me, or if it is that I know I purchase something made by an absolute expert in his craft.

I got a Hampsten because I knew the geometry would be perfect, the brazing would be top notch, and the paint work would be a work of art. These guys know what they are doing. To me this is tremendous value. They are experts, not to mention that I love the idea to buy from an American business. And no way I'll let anyone tell me that his Giant is the same.

[firerescuefin]

Must be a slow day for Caley at Velonews. Not the direction I would have gone with it.

[pavel]

What a dumb article.

Call me crazy, but I dont think excluding outsourced, mass produced bikes made in _ASIA_ at the _NORTH AMERICAN_ bike show wrong.

You can go and see all the brands the guy mentions at the local chain store any day of the week.


Also, whoever wrote that article, shut up.

[cfox]

I disagree with you. First, you're comparing (in general) two different things - custom metal frames made in the US versus carbon frames from overseas. If you were to market two identical bikes, one made by a builder in the US and another by an anonymous factory in Taiwan, I think people would be willing to pay more for US made.

Second - people value the close relationships they develop with their custom builders. This is something they don't have when they buy SEA mass-produced. That relationship is a tangible reason why where your bike comes from can add value(/cost) to it. That is, the fact that you can interact with the person making your bike makes most high-end customers willing to pay more; they are getting a custom level of service in addition to product itself. You could be pedantic and argue that that's not strictly origin-based, but I think it is - your bike is coming from a person or company that has direct customer interactions rather than through an R&D shell fronting an OEM factory.

On your first point: The author made the point (comparison, if you will) that NAHBSy style bikes are 'more valuable' than Asian carbon. All I did was point out that there are countless examples of US made-to-measure bike (in any material) that are much less expensive than high end Asian carbon.
On your second point: I agree with you, but if the relationship is so valuable, why can't US builders charge more than Specialized can for a Venge?

[Bob Loblaw]

I am not a fan of Caley Fretz. Never have been.

I am in total agreement that frames produced in Asia are of excellent quality; however, I think the differentiating qualifier that excludes mass-produced frames is summed up in the statement below (which Fretz apparently didn't read), particularly the bit about the bicycle as an art form.

Also, his attribution of value based on the "myth of origin" is pretty wrong. If labor-hours add value (and they should), then hand made bikes DO have more value. Especially custom bikes. It takes days for a single craftsman to design and build one custom frame. In Taiwan, it takes hours. A solo builder could drive himself into alcoholism building 200 frames a year. At Giant's factory in Taiwan, they probably toss 200 frames into the dumpster every WEEK.

BL

NAHBS: Mission Statement
NAHBS showcases the talents of individuals around the world whose art form is the bicycle. It aims to be a meeting point–both online and in person–for frame builders and consumers looking for custom-made bikes, for the sharing of ideas, and the promotion of a special industry with a rich history dating back to 1819.

[Nooch]

Where I have a problem with this article is when the author says basically "hey someone at the Giant factory lays carbon fibre in a mold with his hands so this frame too is handmade"!

While it may sound correct semantically to me this is a wrong understanding of "handmade". Let me know if I'm wrong. Handmade is often similar to "made by an artisan". That's what it means to me and probably to 98% of the population no?



Well... all of my cannondale's say "handmade in the usa," but when I look at and ride my bike I don't imagine someone like Kelly Bedford standing over a jig for a 52cm frame and welding the tubes together... I like the fact that yes, it was made locally, and that resonates with me, but for whatever reason I don't feel the same about this "handmade" vs. a handmade from a custom shop...

Though, probably, it's similar, i just imagine a much more automated process...

[cmg]

Handmade is often similar to "made by an artisan". that to me is what is implied. a craft. That and the bikes displayed were "custom" i.e. owner specific items, made for one person not the general public. the origin of their manufactuer is never mentioned. A few frame builders from japan were in attendance.

[cat6]

how many hands touch a "production" frame before it's considered finished?

honest question.

[Viper]

What a dumb article.

Call me crazy, but I dont think excluding outsourced, mass produced bikes made in _ASIA_ at the _NORTH AMERICAN_ bike show wrong.

You can go and see all the brands the guy mentions at the local chain store any day of the week.


Also, whoever wrote that article, shut up.

And dude you might be 100% right on the button (which makes the article even better as it raises the debate). :)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=c98qdFQF7sw


:beer:

[CaliFly]

The article is stupid because its very premise is stupid, that "origin adds value." If that were true, hand built bike from the US would cost more than top-end Asia bikes. But they don't, for the most part. The population of folks who poo-poo 'soulless Asian carbon' is pretty small. The origin might add some cache, but builders here seemingly can't tap into that and charge more for their wares. The part about mustaches, tats, and off bike bike caps was funny, though.

"Value" and "Cost" are not interchangeable. If both bikes cost the same, he argues that "Made in the USA" would be the more desirable choice. He's not wrong.

I'll frame this in a way that has merited some recent debate here on the forum. If two sellers were selling the exact same frame in the exact same condition for the exact same price, I would choose to buy from the established forumite over the newcomer. Why? Being established adds value.

[aoe]

Poorly written, uses generalizations to argue against generalizing, cites already well-known facts about asian factories as if revelatory, and adds no value to an already tired topic.

To me, an example of lazy reporting and confuses (supposed) controversy with newsworthiness.

Even the title of the story is pandering.

The North American Handmade Bicycle Show; the Taiwanese Handmade Bicycle meets 2 of 3 criteria.

[Fixed]

the new v.n. is not the old v.n. imho
cheers :help:

[nighthawk]

"So you have frames from Cannondale, GT, Felt, and Kestrel, among others, all coming out of the same factory in Taiwan."


...this quote from the article pretty much sums up the answer to his question. What place do these frames have at a handbuilt bicycle show? The author is obviously out of touch.

[rounder]

I still subscribe to VN and like it, but admit that i don't like it as much as a few years ago.

But about the VN NAHBS story, i do not agree with the story. I went to to NAHBS in Richmond and got to talk with the builders there. I ended up ordering a bike from one of the builders there that i liked (KB). After the fit, KB designed the bike. Then he selected the tubing. Then cut the tubing to fit. Then filed down and cut out the lugs so that they would fit the tubes and look look pretty. Then, he braised all of the stuff together. Then he aligned the frame so that all the tubes layed in the right directon. Then he lined up the paint job and instructed them what to do. Then he delivered the bike carefully wrapped as instructed. I inspected the bike and thought it was beautiful. There is no other bike out there like that. Go Kelly!

Comparing that process to the process where you have someone in Asia carefully lay down carbon to be cooked. Another applies decals. Then the frame is painted and packaged and mailed to a retailer in the U.S. to be sold is not the same process.

[rphetteplace]

MIKE DE SALVO
A visit by the 7-Eleven team to his home town in 1985 inspired 12 year-old Mike DeSalvo to get a job at the local bike shop. That was the beginning of his career. He took frame building classes at the United Bicycle Institute (UBI) in 1991, and graduated from there to become a bike/ski bum in Colorado. During the late ‘90s he returned to the UBI as a teacher, and in 1999 DeSalvo began to practice what he preached in building his first frame. In 2001 a serious hobby became a fulltime job, and DeSalvo now builds about 120 frames a year. Known as one of ‘the next wave’ of builders, DeSalvo has made frames for some of ‘the next wave’ of cycling champions, including Barry Wicks and Carl Decker.

www.desalvocycles.com

NAHBS Awards
2008: Best TIG Welded Frame
2006: 3rd place Titanium frame
2005: 1st place TIG welded frame


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

+1 #8 is in paint.

[Polyglot]

The author is definitely rather ill-informed

In a former professional capacity, I visited numerous Chinese, Taiwanese and Japanese companies that made carbon fiber or transformed it into products. The production of the carbon fiber weaves is 100% automated. The woven sheets are then cut mechanically with no real imput of humans. The sheets are then laid out according to very basic layout plans by what are generally unschooled provincial girls who live on-site in dormitories, without ever going out into the "real" world (this way they can make the most of their generally short stays in the industrial world.) There is absolutely nothing high tech or skilled in the production. Anybody with a 4th grade education and 1 day of training would be able to produce a frame that is qualitatively as good as that produced by somebody working on the same line for 20 years... No handicraft, no skill, no technology...

At least some of the high end carbon frames do allow for at least a minimum of customization, which does require some handicraft.

[PJN]

The author is definitely rather ill-informed

In a former professional capacity, I visited numerous Chinese, Taiwanese and Japanese companies that made carbon fiber or transformed it into products. The production of the carbon fiber weaves is 100% automated. The woven sheets are then cut mechanically with no real imput of humans. The sheets are then laid out according to very basic layout plans by what are generally unschooled provincial girls who live on-site in dormitories, without ever going out into the "real" world (this way they can make the most of their generally short stays in the industrial world.) There is absolutely nothing high tech or skilled in the production. Anybody with a 4th grade education and 1 day of training would be able to produce a frame that is qualitatively as good as that produced by somebody working on the same line for 20 years... No handicraft, no skill, no technology...

At least some of the high end carbon frames do allow for at least a minimum of customization, which does require some handicraft.

Handmade bike makers manufacture their own tube sets from iron/aluminum ingots? Your comparison is flawed.

[Louis]

There is absolutely nothing high tech or skilled in the production. Anybody with a 4th grade education and 1 day of training would be able to produce a frame that is qualitatively as good as that produced by somebody working on the same line for 20 years... No handicraft, no skill, no technology...

Actually, there is something high tech about that. The simple fact that that workforce can produce those frames means that they have to have very well-defined, repetitive procedures, tooling and parts. Otherwise they would end up with complete junk. They compensate for the low-tech labor with technology in the process. (And who's to say those folks aren't skilled, at what they do? Do something as often as they do, and I'm sure they get to be very good at it.)

[bobswire]

Don Walker responds:

Don Walker · Head Honcho at North American Handmade Bicycle Show · 116 subscribers
Hi Caley,

Thanks for writing about NAHBS. I'd like to take a minute to explain why things are the way they are with NAHBS.

NAHBS started off with only 23 exhibitors, all of which were based here in the US. The initial concept was to celebrate the cottage industry and craft of bicycle framebuilding. Framebuilders are as independent as they get, and my thought was to get them all together and show our wares to the public and media. It was only in the second year of the show when we grew to 95 exhibitors did we really start a mission statement. Here's a quote from the latest iteration of it;.
NAHBS showcases the talents of bicycle frame builders around the world whose functional art form is the bicycle. It aims to be a meeting point--both online and in person--for frame builders and consumers looking for custom-made bikes, for the sharing of ideas, and the promotion of a special industry...

If we invited all the companies that you listed, the show would lose its focus, which is the framebuilder. It would be on par with that other industry show in Las Vegas, and that's not what I want the show to become. I want it to stay true to its roots and mission, promotion of the framebuilder.

For the record, a framebuilder is a guy who picks up the phone when it rings, takes an order and fills the order. He's as hands on in the process as one could be; offering fit advice, tubing selection, geometry consultations, etc. A framebuilder is quite opposite to the companies you listed who employ teams of people to make many bikes, without a consumer who has even ordered said bike yet. Its quite a contrast, wouldn't you say?

Thanks again for your article.

[cat6]

imagine going out to dinner and your chef comes out to interview you before your meal. he asks you about yourself, what you enjoy eating, what you dislike. he even asks your favorite color so your meal can be garnished with foods colored to your liking. he might even cook using his own home grown veggies.

now imagine you're at fast food restaurant. the food is processed and goes from an assembly line, to an assembly line, to and assembly line and finally to your mouth. if you don't like anything on the menu, kick rocks. wait until it's decided by a marketing/focus group that there's enough of a demand to turn a profit serving xyz and then they might make it. if they make something you like, buy it. no problem there.

if the origin of any item i purchase can be traced back to a face i've met or a voice i recognize, yes it matters. the experience of dealing with a person you can relate to also makes a difference. my father was a custom woodworker so i'm somewhat partial to those that create things by hand from start to finish. sure there's a ton of talent\education involved in the process of having a bike for the masses to go in to production, but give me a break. this article is a slap in the face to "the good guys", whether they attend NAHBS or not.

[velotel]

While it may sound correct semantically to me this is a wrong understanding of "handmade". Let me know if I'm wrong. Handmade is often similar to "made by an artisan". That's what it means to me and probably to 98% of the population no?
You're not wrong; you just speak french. In french the word artisan is strong and often used for lots of creative people. A wonderful word that isn't used much in the states, though perhaps this has changed since I left. A word that rather well describes the small, custom builders the show originally was built around. He, the writer of the article, also is assuming that just because North America is in the title that therefore everything in it will originate in North America rather than simply stating that the show is held in North America. I have no idea for the latest show but earlier shows had quite a few artisan builders from outside North America.

[phcollard]

now imagine you're at fast food restaurant. the food is processed and goes from an assembly line, to an assembly line, to and assembly line and finally to your mouth. if you don't like anything on the menu, kick rocks. wait until it's decided by a marketing/focus group that there's enough of a demand to turn a profit serving xyz and then they might make it. if they make something you like, buy it. no problem there.

I like this comparison :)

[phcollard]

You're not wrong; you just speak french.

Sh.. Busted! :D

In french the word artisan is strong and often used for lots of creative people. A wonderful word that isn't used much in the states, though perhaps this has changed since I left.

I don't know. When guitarmaking was my bread and butter I was a member and symposium participant of ASIA (http://asiartisans.org/content/) which is from the USA. Maybe that's why I'm partial to the word.

[Fixed]

Don Walker responds:

Don Walker · Head Honcho at North American Handmade Bicycle Show · 116

For the record, a framebuilder is a guy who picks up the phone when it rings, takes an order and fills the order. He's as hands on in the process as one could be; offering fit advice, tubing selection, geometry consultations, etc. A framebuilder is quite opposite to the companies you listed who employ teams of people to make many bikes, without a consumer who has even ordered said bike yet. Its quite a contrast, wouldn't you say?

Thanks again for your article.

v.n. has lost touch with a small part of their readers and bike history and tradition imho
cheers

[victoryfactory]

Thanks to bobswire for posting Don Walker's view.


One can argue semantics as to whether
North American Handmade Bike Show
Really describes what is happening there, maybe it should be renamed
but that is a distraction from their real mission which seems to be providing
a place for small designer/manufacturers who offer custom bicycles to show their stuff.
I do agree with the article's premise that just because most bikes are made in a
huge well equipped factory it doesn't mean they aren't "Hand" made.
But origin does matter to me sometimes. I do like the idea of riding a bike that was ordered from a guy who designed it and made it. That's the spirit of NAHBS
even if the acronym doesn't hold up to a microscope in 2012.

As to who qualifies for NAHBS and who doesn't, that's a decision that is made
by the management of the show and he obviously has a very clear idea of why he
makes the decisions he does right or wrong. Its his show, yo.
VF

[Elefantino]

There is a good/better discussion of this article across the hall, where it counts more atmo.

Caley Fretz responds, thoughtfully.

[William]

There is a good/better discussion of this article across the hall, where it counts more atmo.




http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/hayes/Personal/Kids%20pointing%20at%20Bend.jpg

[nighthawk]

There is a good/better discussion of this article across the hall, where it counts more atmo.

Caley Fretz responds, thoughtfully.

I might have to make the trek over there to see what Caley has to say.

[cfox]

"Value" and "Cost" are not interchangeable. If both bikes cost the same, he argues that "Made in the USA" would be the more desirable choice. He's not wrong.

I'll frame this in a way that has merited some recent debate here on the forum. If two sellers were selling the exact same frame in the exact same condition for the exact same price, I would choose to buy from the established forumite over the newcomer. Why? Being established adds value.

If something is truly a more desirable choice, it will cost more. That's how it works in the real world marketplace. It's a fantasy to think otherwise. What the market says is that it is willing to pay more for a Pinarello Dogma from Taiwan vs. a custom Crumpton hand made in Texas. What this boils down to is this: there are only a relative handful of people (most who dwell on this forum included) who have a preference for a NAHBS type bike vs. the big guys. I think big-time marketing adds way more "value" to a brand than the country of origin.

And, of course you would rather buy from a known entity in the classifieds; the reality is you'd probably be willing to pay a premium for it.

[Earl Gray]

There is a good/better discussion of this article across the hall, where it counts more atmo.

Caley Fretz responds, thoughtfully.

And as expected, the minions jumped on him with both feet.

[oldpotatoe]

I guess "handmade" doesn't have the same meaning to everyone :rolleyes:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/03/bikes-and-tech/the-torqued-wrench-the-myth-of-origin_211105

I talked to Richard Schwinn about the show and his point was it has become more of an 'Art' show than bicycle show. As such it has some definite beauty and art but as a 'consumer' type show, Richard won't be displaying at Denver.

We(Vecchio's) are considering having a wee show at the shop during NAHBS. More beer than 'show' but have Sean Walling(SoulCraft), Richard, Mark Nobilette, Moots, Mike Cone of Rene Herse, the Mosaic guys....come by to meet the public. Not going to compete with NAHBS, Richard is coming out as a spectator, not a participant. Let you 'all know. Should be fun..few frames, yak with these guys, drink cheap beer.

[EDS]

Don Walker responds:

Don Walker · Head Honcho at North American Handmade Bicycle Show · 116 subscribers
Hi Caley,

Thanks for writing about NAHBS. I'd like to take a minute to explain why things are the way they are with NAHBS.

NAHBS started off with only 23 exhibitors, all of which were based here in the US. The initial concept was to celebrate the cottage industry and craft of bicycle framebuilding. Framebuilders are as independent as they get, and my thought was to get them all together and show our wares to the public and media. It was only in the second year of the show when we grew to 95 exhibitors did we really start a mission statement. Here's a quote from the latest iteration of it;.
NAHBS showcases the talents of bicycle frame builders around the world whose functional art form is the bicycle. It aims to be a meeting point--both online and in person--for frame builders and consumers looking for custom-made bikes, for the sharing of ideas, and the promotion of a special industry...

If we invited all the companies that you listed, the show would lose its focus, which is the framebuilder. It would be on par with that other industry show in Las Vegas, and that's not what I want the show to become. I want it to stay true to its roots and mission, promotion of the framebuilder.

For the record, a framebuilder is a guy who picks up the phone when it rings, takes an order and fills the order. He's as hands on in the process as one could be; offering fit advice, tubing selection, geometry consultations, etc. A framebuilder is quite opposite to the companies you listed who employ teams of people to make many bikes, without a consumer who has even ordered said bike yet. Its quite a contrast, wouldn't you say?

Thanks again for your article.

If that is what NAHBS is all about, shouldn't companies like Seven, IF, Serotta and the like be excluded as no one person is responsible for the design and production of the frame?

And for the record, I love my Serotta, even if it was designed and built without a consumer who had ordered said bike yet.

[victoryfactory]

If that is what NAHBS is all about, shouldn't companies like Seven, IF, Serotta and the like be excluded as no one person is responsible for the design and production of the frame?

And for the record, I love my Serotta, even if it was designed and built without a consumer who had ordered said bike yet.

That's where the fuzzyness and politics comes in....
I think they have been struggling with the letter of the law vs getting
a prestigious company to come.
Some companies decide on their own not to come, some are told yes or no.
My guess is that Mr. Walker decides based on if the company has a one on one
custom dept. that fits the model he's looking for or a history of that.

I just go to the show and enjoy what's there, I don't sweat the details.
I can decide for myself who I'd like to deal with.
OTOH, there must be a few pissed off spurned exhibitors out there. I know there
are a few very small specialty accessory guys who can't afford a whole booth and
apparently aren't allowed to share someone else's booth.
I would do a small table top area for those guys to show there stuff if it was
my decision
VF

[br995]

If that is what NAHBS is all about, shouldn't companies like Seven, IF, Serotta and the like be excluded as no one person is responsible for the design and production of the frame?

And for the record, I love my Serotta, even if it was designed and built without a consumer who had ordered said bike yet.

It's perhaps a slippery slope, but the Sevens and IFs and Serottas of the industry are still fully-custom companies, choosing tubes, angles, materials, paints and components based on what a customer wants and needs. Sure they make some off-the-rack stuff, but so do places like Geekhouse (and no one would argue Geekhouse isn't a handmade, North American, custom builder).

The mass-produced stuff may give you a few pre-set sizing options, and some may allow for some paint customization, but in the end you're buying a bike whose tubing and angles and design were decided upon before you, the customer, ever entered the picture.

[Fixed]

it was the writers job to do a story that got under peoples skin ( talk at the water cooler thing) i would say he did his job well
cheers

[Polyglot]

Handmade bike makers manufacture their own tube sets from iron/aluminum ingots? Your comparison is flawed.

Not at all. No handcrafted frame is ever built up with pre-cut tubes, they must always be cut and mitered. Every handcrafted frame does get personalized tubes. Not at all the case with production carbon or even production steel.

[54ny77]

Is a sandwich from Subway a handmade sandwich, or a production sandwich?

Discuss.

http://evfreebies.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/subway-6-inch-sub-turkey.jpg

[br995]

Ooooooh - witty and relevant.

I like it! :beer:

[fiamme red]

The article is based on a quibble: since human hands do work on the frames built by the big manufacturers, these companies too should be invited to the show, since their bikes are "handmade."

But there are other criteria in the selection of exhibitors: large bicycle manufacturers aren't invited (they have Interbike and many other venues to show their products), and exhibitors should offer bikes for ordinary customers (i.e., not just for pro racers) that are custom, at least to some degree (which degree is left to Don Walker's discretion). Cannondale, Scott, Giant, Felt, Jamis, etc. are excluded by these criteria.

[bobswire]

There is a good/better discussion of this article across the hall, where it counts more atmo.

Caley Fretz responds, thoughtfully.

Good give and take on both sides, all's well that ends well. Helps having "the man" defending you.

[David Kirk]

I think this is a lose/lose deal for the show organizers. They will disappoint someone - either the small builder who feels that the bigger companies should be in the booth next to him or the big companies who want to reach the handbuilt crowd.

I've always said that all bikes are handbuilt - in fact I can't think of a single high end bike that isn't handbuilt. I doubt anyone thinks of an Crumpton and a Madone in the same way. That said - I can not think of a way to properly define in words what 'handbuilt' means nor a way to enforce the definition. In a way it's like the famous definition of porn - I don't know how to define it, but I know when I see it. I think we all know a handbuilt bike when we see it. I think DW can only handle this in one way........ He will need to make a decision on a case by case basis based on the 'porn test'. If he does so and doesn't let the extra dollars involved by opening up the show even further then I think things will be fine. And if he does so more small builders will want to come and in the end more tickets will be sold at the door.

I would ask the public this - what do you want to see? Do you want a consumer version of Interbike with any and all that can afford the booth to be allowed or do you want just 'handbuilt' bikes with the builder standing in the booth?

Dave

[Polyglot]

Actually, there is something high tech about that. The simple fact that that workforce can produce those frames means that they have to have very well-defined, repetitive procedures, tooling and parts. Otherwise they would end up with complete junk. They compensate for the low-tech labor with technology in the process. (And who's to say those folks aren't skilled, at what they do? Do something as often as they do, and I'm sure they get to be very good at it.)

I have visited a few dozen factories in China (as well as in Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam...) I don't believe one can define the carbon manufacturing facilities as being high-tech. The technology is very very basic, but the lay-out of the production space is indeed very purposeful, most often using absolutely new premises purposely built for the production (there aren't many abandoned or obsolete factories). This is very different in my books from technology. Likewise producing quality does not necessarily require high-technology, nor does junk necessarily ensue in the presence of low-technology. This is not clean-room technology like that used in the computer industry, or even using patented technology or processes found in many other production situations. The closest equivalent that I have seen here in North America is a sheltered workshop for the mentally handicapped, where the workers are taught how to repeat a mundane task to perfection. As I mentioned earlier, somebody having worked in the factory for one week can produce something just as well as somebody having worked there for years. (and is offered the same level of job security, one screw-up and you are often out for good in these factories, this whether you have worked there for years or days). The system works very well and will continue to work as long as the absolutely immense disparity exists between the industrialized areas and the provincial areas. In fact, these women travel very far to be able to work in these dormitory/factories, which often offer them better living conditions than what they were used to up until then in their lives. After a work period that can range from a few months to a number of years, they invariably return to their original homes with a sum of money that in their home area makes them very wealthy and able to set up house and home, set for the rest of their lives.

[wasfast]

Overall, this seems to be a definition issue, not whether the show meets a need or audience. Taking exception to the "Handmade" in the title misses the point totally. The success of the event appears to be much more than Don Walker originally thought, a good thing for the most part.

His response on the VN site nails it pretty good (bobswire also posted this on the page 2 of this thread)

__________________________________________________ __________
Don Walker responds:

Hi Caley,

Thanks for writing about NAHBS. I'd like to take a minute to explain why things are the way they are with NAHBS.

NAHBS started off with only 23 exhibitors, all of which were based here in the US. The initial concept was to celebrate the cottage industry and craft of bicycle framebuilding. Framebuilders are as independent as they get, and my thought was to get them all together and show our wares to the public and media. It was only in the second year of the show when we grew to 95 exhibitors did we really start a mission statement. Here's a quote from the latest iteration of it;.
NAHBS showcases the talents of bicycle frame builders around the world whose functional art form is the bicycle. It aims to be a meeting point--both online and in person--for frame builders and consumers looking for custom-made bikes, for the sharing of ideas, and the promotion of a special industry...

If we invited all the companies that you listed, the show would lose its focus, which is the framebuilder. It would be on par with that other industry show in Las Vegas, and that's not what I want the show to become. I want it to stay true to its roots and mission, promotion of the framebuilder.

For the record, a framebuilder is a guy who picks up the phone when it rings, takes an order and fills the order. He's as hands on in the process as one could be; offering fit advice, tubing selection, geometry consultations, etc. A framebuilder is quite opposite to the companies you listed who employ teams of people to make many bikes, without a consumer who has even ordered said bike yet. Its quite a contrast, wouldn't you say?

[bironi]

I would ask the public this - what do you want to see? Do you want a consumer version of Interbike with any and all that can afford the booth to be allowed or do you want just 'handbuilt' bikes with the builder standing in the booth?

Dave

Dave,

This question should be a separate thread discussion. And a second part to the question would be whether DW agrees that the question needs asking.

Byron

[David Kirk]

Dave,

This question should be a separate thread discussion. And a second part to the question would be whether DW agrees that the question needs asking.

Byron

Sounds right to me.

The other question I would ask is who is the primary customer - the company that buys a booth or the Joe Public that pays to come in and look around?

dave