View Full Version : Ultegra drivetrain can o'marbles sound w/new cassette. Ideas?
54ny77
03-24-2012, 12:43 PM
I just installed an 11-28 Ultegra 6700 cassette on a 6600 drivetrain (Ultegra SL) that also has 6700 shifters and a CN7801 chain (nearly new chain). Crank is 39x53. Used to run an Ultegra 11-25 cassette, which ran silent and perfect. This new setup sounds like a can o' marbles but only when in the 28 and the 19, the latter being my favorite gear. Drives me bonkers. Otherwise, all other gears run perfectly quiet, shifting is crisp and spot-on, no chain rub anywhere, no skipping, etc.
I'm outta ideas on what's causing it. Maybe B-limit screw? If it matters, it is screwed just about all the way in due to the 28 (so that the r. derail. cage is not rubbing the cog).
BurritoGuru
03-24-2012, 12:46 PM
Do you have a short or mid cage derailleur?
54ny77
03-24-2012, 12:48 PM
Great question, woops I forgot about that one. No idea. Most likely short. Capacity might not be 28, eh? I just assumed it could. Guess I gotta go read the 6600 tech specs, thanks...
Do you have a short or mid cage derailleur?
54ny77
03-24-2012, 01:02 PM
Per Shimano docs, looks like I'm outta range. Total capacity is 29 and max rear is 27.
Interesting because it shifts perfectly yet makes a boatload of noise in the 19. The 28 is so-so, much less noise than the 19 which sounds like someone dumped sand and marbles everywhere.
Is the issue the b-stay screw and position of cage relative to cog while in the 19? That sorta makes no sense if the 11-17 and 21 & 24 are whisper quiet.
Strange, no?
regularguy412
03-24-2012, 01:10 PM
Might want to make sure all the loose cogs are installed with the correct side facing outward. Just a thot.
Mike in AR:beer:
dave thompson
03-24-2012, 01:13 PM
If you haven't already, re-do your rear shifting adjustments, just as if you installed a new rear der. I'll assume you have the spacer that may be required behind the cassette. Also make sure, as others have suggested that the B-screw is adjusted to give the necessary clearance when in the big cog/small ring combo.
Your chain may be too short, by a link or two, to quietly run your cassette/chainring combo, but it's been well established that the 6600 rear derailleur can handle a 28t cassette.
54ny77
03-24-2012, 01:22 PM
Dave yep cassette spacer's in there and the b-stop is set for correct clearance. Also the derail. frame hangar has just enough extension, so am reasonably assured it's not that that's causing the clearance issue. I might fiddle with chain length and try a new one. Am dropping in a compact crank this afternoon (50x34) so the length issue may actually be moot, we'll see.
Regularguy that's a good idea I'll check, and if I bungled the install in that regards (wrong side out) I deserve to be tarred & feathered and I'll buy you a beer if you're ever in these parts. Of the countless freewheel and cassette installs I've done over the years I've never FUBAR'd that one, but there's a first time for everything...:bike:
If you haven't already, re-do your rear shifting adjustments, just as if you installed a new rear der. I'll assume you have the spacer that may be required behind the cassette. Also make sure, as others have suggested that the B-screw is adjusted to give the necessary clearance when in the big cog/small ring combo.
Your chain may be too short, by a link or two, to quietly run your cassette/chainring combo, but it's been well established that the 6600 rear derailleur can handle a 28t cassette.
Bob Loblaw
03-24-2012, 02:08 PM
I don't think it's possible to install a cog reversed.
Could be chain length. Can of marbles suggests something is loose. Is it possible there is a touch of play in the cassette? Maybe the last cog isn't quite lined up right and did not slide all the way onto the cassette. Or sometimes a spacer gets stuck to the back of the old cassette and there ends up 1/2mm of play in the cassette cogs. Barely enough to feel=lots of noise.
BL
54ny77
03-24-2012, 02:17 PM
Well it ain't the cassette install. Took it out, spacer's fine, cog is in there correct, lockring torque an even 40. The chain's roller engages freely onto each cog in the correct spot (right about in the center between pins, with a slight bias towards the left), no hopping when pedaling backwards or forwards. For the life of me I can't detect what the sound is. :confused:
Here's a pic of alignment:
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z113/jpmz06/Bike/IMG_4289.jpg
Of cog/pulley gap in the 19 (plenty, i.e., it's not rubbing, which would otherwise make the grinding noise):
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z113/jpmz06/Bike/IMG_4288.jpg
And depth of b-stay screw:
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z113/jpmz06/Bike/IMG_4291.jpg
I don't think it's possible to install a cog reversed.
Could be chain length. Can of marbles suggests something is loose. Is it possible there is a touch of play in the cassette? Maybe the last cog isn't quite lined up right and did not slide all the way onto the cassette. Or sometimes a spacer gets stuck to the back of the old cassette and there ends up 1/2mm of play in the cassette cogs. Barely enough to feel=lots of noise.
BL
Bob Loblaw
03-24-2012, 02:31 PM
MTB guys wanting to run bigger cassettes will reberse the b screw so the head rests against the dropout stop. You get a bit more out of it that way.
BL
Ralph
03-24-2012, 02:52 PM
You don't have the cogs on the cassette body right. Last couple of small ones not seated right. I just fixed this same problem on a buddies bike recently. He swore he had it right, but I had to fix it for him.
sivat
03-24-2012, 03:19 PM
I agree with the chain length. I went the wrong way when measuring a chain and subtracted a link instead of adding, and had a similar sound. That assumes you're crosschaining though, and you're probably not. Still worth checking.
oldpotatoe
03-24-2012, 03:24 PM
I just installed an 11-28 Ultegra 6700 cassette on a 6600 drivetrain (Ultegra SL) that also has 6700 shifters and a CN7801 chain (nearly new chain). Crank is 39x53. Used to run an Ultegra 11-25 cassette, which ran silent and perfect. This new setup sounds like a can o' marbles but only when in the 28 and the 19, the latter being my favorite gear. Drives me bonkers. Otherwise, all other gears run perfectly quiet, shifting is crisp and spot-on, no chain rub anywhere, no skipping, etc.
I'm outta ideas on what's causing it. Maybe B-limit screw? If it matters, it is screwed just about all the way in due to the 28 (so that the r. derail. cage is not rubbing the cog).
Not b limit or rear der 'capacity, otherwise the pulley would be draggin on the cogs in the 25 and 28, not the 19. and the 11-28 is easy with a short cage shimano road RD, any of them, even with a compact crank.
1mm spacer on the freehub body first?
54ny77
03-24-2012, 03:30 PM
thanks ralph, where do you see that it's off? honest question, 'cause i swear i have 'em on there right as well. wide cog "teeth" are all lined up with wide "track" on cassette body, everything seated properly. once torqued down the cogs themselves don't move, only very slight cassette body movement (normal). bottom cog sticks out about .5mm beyond edge of threaded cassette body tip. last thing i could think of is that i'm not supposed to use the spacer/washer at rear? fyi it's a 6700 hub/cassette body. install instructions say both--one page says install it the other does not. i've always used spacer with the 11-25 with no adverse (noisy) consequence like this. i don't understand how the lack of spacer would eliminate the chatter/grinding on 1 out of 10 cogs.
You don't have the cogs on the cassette body right. Last couple of small ones not seated right. I just fixed this same problem on a buddies bike recently. He swore he had it right, but I had to fix it for him.
benitosan1972
03-24-2012, 03:41 PM
1mm spacer on the freehub body first?
this is usually the problem... so does the OP have one installed?
54ny77
03-24-2012, 03:43 PM
yes. always had one on there even with 11-25, ran perfect.
just took it off, same marbles.
am now losing my marbles....
eh, f it. can't deal with this anymore. next stop: the local bike shop!
thank you everyone for the ideas/suggestions.
this is usually the problem... so does the OP have one installed?
Ralph
03-24-2012, 03:45 PM
If it's like my buddies cassette, the last cog you installed didn't stay where you put it when you tightened it up. So the lock ring is tight, but cog is not tight against next cog or spacer, can't remember which is next on Shimano......I'm a Campy guy. If that's not it, don't have a clue, but since cassette is what you replaced, and you know what you're doing, that's my bet.
54ny77
03-24-2012, 04:14 PM
nope wasn't that, it stayed put & is def. seated properly. i'm outta ideas. last thing i can think of is the cassette body itself is fubar'd, warped, or loose, etc.
i don't know how to play with cassette body and really have no desire to learn. frustrating though, i hate not being able to fix/resolve something.
If it's like my buddies cassette, the last cog you installed didn't stay where you put it when you tightened it up. So the lock ring is tight, but cog is not tight against next cog or spacer, can't remember which is next on Shimano......I'm a Campy guy. If that's not it, don't have a clue, but since cassette is what you replaced, and you know what you're doing, that's my bet.
Black Dog
03-24-2012, 04:26 PM
Have you put the old cassette back on to see if the noise is specific to the new cassette? Something may have been altered during the changeover. Also, is the chain worn? Is there a chance that you have the 19 from the old cassette mixed in with the new one? Silly questions but at this stage anything that may have been overlooked is work investigating.
54ny77
03-24-2012, 04:38 PM
Am putting new chain on now....after this, if no fix, it's beer time.
Have you put the old cassette back on to see if the noise is specific to the new cassette? Something may have been altered during the changeover. Also, is the chain worn? Is there a chance that you have the 19 from the old cassette mixed in with the new one? Silly questions but at this stage anything that may have been overlooked is work investigating.
dave thompson
03-24-2012, 04:56 PM
Am putting new chain on now....after this, if no fix, it's beer time.
Tequila. Your bike will still make noise, but you won't care
eddief
03-24-2012, 05:05 PM
i have been forced to alchohol based on not threading the cable head correctly all the way into the slot in the shifter.
and just curious. while it is making the noise, is there any amount of fiddling with the derailleur cable adjuster that will get rid of it? you know, while you are turning the crank, hearing the noise, and twisting the adjuster all at the same time? you'll have to put down the bottle first.
I just installed an 11-28 Ultegra 6700 cassette on a 6600 drivetrain (Ultegra SL) that also has 6700 shifters and a CN7801 chain (nearly new chain). Crank is 39x53. Used to run an Ultegra 11-25 cassette, which ran silent and perfect. This new setup sounds like a can o' marbles but only when in the 28 and the 19, the latter being my favorite gear. Drives me bonkers. Otherwise, all other gears run perfectly quiet, shifting is crisp and spot-on, no chain rub anywhere, no skipping, etc.
I'm outta ideas on what's causing it. Maybe B-limit screw? If it matters, it is screwed just about all the way in due to the 28 (so that the r. derail. cage is not rubbing the cog).
54ny77
03-24-2012, 05:19 PM
cable tension does nada, i tried that at derail barrel as well as on downtube adjuster. (oh and yes the cable's seated properly in shifter.)
put new chain on, glopped the pulleys and chain full of oil. figured what the heck, more oil helps the petro-economy....and will get back to it in a.m.
the funny thing is, it's not the noise that drives me nuts so much. it's the grinding. it reverbates in the frame. when i was out riding in middle of nowhere today and it was pindrop quiet, it sounded like a spoon in a garbage disposal. once i got into town and there was traffic and all other sorts of distractions, i paid it no mind....
i have been forced to alchohol based on not threading the cable head correctly all the way into the slot in the shifter.
and just curious. while it is making the noise, is there any amount of fiddling with the derailleur cable adjuster that will get rid of it? you know, while you are turning the crank, hearing the noise, and twisting the adjuster all at the same time? you'll have to put down the bottle first.
jds108
03-24-2012, 05:59 PM
If you've run out of possibilities on the back end - cassette, rd, chain - it could be in the shifter.
The first time I went to thread a shifter cable through a 6700 lever I found it it was possible for the cable to not make it through the lever where it was supposed to. It got a bit stuck and took a little force to pull it back out.
Other than the trip to the LBS, the best approach now is to eliminate sources one-by-one by swapping out parts for another (i.e. put in a different cassette). And add the lever and cable into the list of possibilities, just in case you've exhausted the other possibilities. If there is a kink in the cable somewhere maybe that's causing the shift into 19 to not align well enough?
eddief
03-24-2012, 06:47 PM
to get a buddy to view your work in person. two brains, four eyes can make a big difference.
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