Paul Taylor Cycles, Bozeman MT

[Bikingbob]

I am posting to alert potential customers to my experience with Paul Taylor. At the 2011 San Diego Custom Bike Show I was very impressed by both Mr. Taylor and his workmanship. After looking at the many builders at the show I contracted with Mr. Taylor to build a custom frame. Loosely based on the Rivendell but with a bit more of a club ride to it. I made a $1000 deposit in March, 2011 and a final payment of $1150 in October. I was promised the bike by the first of November. Later he told me it would be delivered the week before Christmas. When the frame never arrived I asked him to refund my full payment as he had consistently misled me. He begged off and again promised to get it out by mid February. Throughout he said he was dealing with enormous personal upheaval and was finally coming out of it. Being a compassionate person who has worked with people dealing with severe depression I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately, Mr. Taylor has shown that he is a manipulating liar. While an incredible frame builder he does not have the personal character to match his frames. Contact me if you want any more details. Alert others to his practices so that he doesn't continue to be a blemish on the trade.

[rugbysecondrow]

Agreed, similar experience with similar stories.

Sorry for your luck.

My thread on the issue.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=104346&highlight=Taylor

[duke]

Welcome to the Forum and thank you for the heads up. It is not the first time Taylor's name has come up in less than flattering terms. You will probably be assailed by his apologists, but that is the nature of open communication.
duke

[azrider]

$hitty. no winners here.

sorry to hear about your troubles and hopefully all gets worked out in the end.

[Louis]

OK, Bob, now that we've gotten that negative stuff out of the way, tell us a bit about your good experiences.

What's your current favorite bike and show us some pictures of it in the awesome SD countryside.

PS – welcome to the forum. :)

[J.Greene]

What a shame. Bozeman is known for two builders who operate 180 degrees from that. I hope you get it settled eventually.

[eddief]

after all that has been written here and the few people with whom i have shared email and phone conversations...where i can believe Taylor has issues. if it quacks like a duck, don't order a frame from a duck. so glad doug curtiss at Curtlo did my frame and all worked out well.

[sivat]

I know other people who had long delays in getting work from Taylor due to personal issues. I can by sympathetic to personal issues, but it's a shame that he kept taking work and ended up with a poor reputation because of it.

[Peter P.]

I have no problem with the original poster publishing this as their first post. They kept it civil and professional.

This isn't the first time I've read negative comments about Paul Taylor's business practices. Why?

[jr59]

I hope all works out in the end.

I also would like to hear of some better things from the OP.

Good Luck.

[Fixed]

after all that has been written here and the few people with whom i have shared email and phone conversations...where i can believe Taylor has issues. if it quacks like a duck, don't order a frame from a duck. so glad doug curtiss at Curtlo did my frame and all worked out well.

doug curtiss at Curtlo is building some amazing bikes
cheers

[jasond]

Sorry to hear about your misfortune with this builder however be careful, last guy that started a thread like this was threaten with legal action by Mr. Taylor.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=927947&postcount=69

Full thread
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=89310&highlight=Paul+Taylor

[palincss]

I'm surprised the defrauded customers have not started legal actions against this builder.

[mike p]

Always sad to hear stuff like this. I really liked some of his bikes. Hope it works out for you Bob. I hope Paul works out his problems.

Mike

[TMB]

doug curtiss at Curtlo is building some amazing bikes
cheers

Said it before, I will say it again. The bike Doug Curtiss built is a flat out wonderful bike, period. Comfortable, stable, fits like a dream .... Makes you want to ride it all day.

Great bike.

[TMB]

. I hope Paul works out his problems.

Mike


I'll be honest. I don't care if he works out his "problems". I've read too many of these threads, aout various builders, but especially about this guy. As far as I am concerned all he's doing is stealing people's money.

When he either delivers their bikes, or returns their money, then maybe I'll get around to caring about him.

[alancw3]

i think the op handles this in a very professional way. oh and welcome to the forum. just my 2cents.

[yakstone]

It sounds to me like his problem is one of "character", often these don't get worked out.

[bagochips3]

Sorry to hear about your misfortune with this builder however be careful, last guy that started a thread like this was threaten with legal action by Mr. Taylor.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=927947&postcount=69

Full thread
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=89310&highlight=Paul+Taylor

I'm not a lawyer, but what legal action can he take for people sharing their truthful experiences about him? If this were possible, surely Yelp would have been sued out of existence years ago.

Besides, that comment about the "crowbar hotel" sounds much more actionable to me.

[pdmtong]

is this a thread about taylor or about curtlo?

this is at least the fourth builder discussed here whose personal issues have sullied their professional reputation.

I have empathy for them, but not at the expense of ripping me off. I've seen paul taylors work. nice stuff. but no thanks, I don't need the headache. Thanks to the OP for the high alert.

[jasond]

but what legal action can he take for people sharing their truthful experiences about him?

Agreed.

[mike p]

Im no bleeding heart. I think were on the same page. If he works out his problems he'll be building bikes and or returning money.

Mike

QUOTE=TMB;1106358]I'll be honest. I don't care if he works out his "problems". I've read too many of these threads, aout various builders, but especially about this guy. As far as I am concerned all he's doing is stealing people's money.

When he either delivers their bikes, or returns their money, then maybe I'll get around to caring about him.[/QUOTE]

[FlashUNC]

There are too many top shelf, professional builders out there to waste time/money on those who can't deliver.

[Smiley]

The issue is not just about delivering a bike its about taking deposit and final payment money with the lie about delivering a bike.

I was around Rugby when he delt with his Taylor issue and the crap that was conveyed by the frame builder was too much BS.

I hate these stories cause in the end they do blemish all builders in a small way.

[weaponsgrade]

I'm not a lawyer, but what legal action can he take for people sharing their truthful experiences about him? If this were possible, surely Yelp would have been sued out of existence years ago.

Besides, that comment about the "crowbar hotel" sounds much more actionable to me.

Libel's one action, but you'd have to prove the statement was false. As far as the "crowbar hotel" statement, have a look at this one:

"Whoever transmits in interstate . . . any communication containing . . . any threat to injure the person of another, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both." 18 USC § 875 - I believe it's just a preliminary release and probably not retroactive.

[PoppaWheelie]

Same boat here...still hopeful and sympathetic to claimed personal issues. I'm 51% sure I'll get my frame and 49% sure I'm just being a sucker. Time will tell. Risk is a $600 deposit at this point.

A returned email or phone call would go a LONG way to making me feel better. That's 90% of the problem for me. I frankly don't mind the delays...do wish I had some idea what was happening though.

[Aaron O]

I'm not a lawyer, but what legal action can he take for people sharing their truthful experiences about him? If this were possible, surely Yelp would have been sued out of existence years ago.

Besides, that comment about the "crowbar hotel" sounds much more actionable to me.

I'm not a lawyer either and there are probably people here more qualified to answer this...

Your Yelp example is interesting. Their position is that they are hosting content and that the reviews are the responsibility of the posters. I think it's an interesting area since Yelp uses proprietary formulas to determine review placement, delete reviews and also sells packages, part of which is burying negative reviews. To me that means Yelp is an editor and IS responsible for content. If they remove certain reviews and bury others, I'd think the argument could be made that they are little different than a newspaper and should be held to a similar standard of libel. Whether it's a winning argument, I don't know. Probably not. I personally find that company repugnant and offensive on tactics. There have been cases before where boards and sites were sued for the content of a user and the decisions are sort of incident specific...I think, overall, there's a lot of unsettled interpretation in this area.

IMO, it would be nearly impossible to attack Serotta or those expressing their concerns and opinions in the way that has occurred here. You'd have to bring and prove libel/slander charges...and those are notoriously difficult to win. Generally speaking, the courts come down on the side of free speech and the burden is EXTREMELY heavy on the part of the complainant. He can sue anyone he wants to, but I think he'd have a snow balls chance in hell of winning. Chefs and restaurants have tried the slander/libel approach for years with food critics and it pretty much is ALWAYS a losing battle/intimidation technique. The opinions expressed here are well reasoned and respectful. He'd have to conclusively prove you were lying...AND doing it intentionally to harm him...AND show damages...to win anything.

On the other hand - Taylor's threats in response could be considered to be extortion, at least in my area. Probably a losing fight, but a stronger fight than his libel argument.

[54ny77]

I love custom bikes and am a huge fan of 'em, but it's always a bummer to read about stories of customer getting screwed like this. Doesn't do the industry any good. I know too many folks still in excuse hell from otherwise fawned-over builders. For comparison, my custom order went as follows: initial emails/measurement, check is mailed, a few calls with builder to chat about bike use/design, about 2-3 months later I get a bunch of emails with photos of the build, and a couple of weeks or so after that a box arrives with frame inside. Done. Frame cost: about $700 (and more for the fork, of course). I've bought 3 bikes from same builder, and each time the process went just like that. Longest wait was maybe 4-5 months, tops. They're tools, not art. They work great, they're affordable, I never expected manna from heaven or angels to sing when hitting the road. Maybe that's part of the problem with the "artisan" builder: they're selling more than just a bike, and the buyer is expecting more as well.

Sorry but I gotta laugh at the depression clause. So depressed they can't work, but stable enough to hold on to other peoples' money while they sort it out? That excuse would fall so flat so fast in my business it's laughable.

[fourflys]

I hate these stories cause in the end they do blemish all builders in a small way.

exactly... since most can fit just fine on a production bike and you know you're safe buying one...

there are still plenty of builders who have fine reputations though... real hard to pass up Rock Lobster right know in my opinion...

BTW- saw a Curtlo here in North San Diego the other day... nice bike!

[Aaron O]

I've seen the "it blemishes everyone" comment before and I don't understand it at all. If you eat in one bad restaurant, does that blemish all restaurants? How is any other frame builder at all responsible for the sins of another? I'd do my research and see that there are plenty with solid reputations.

[Smiley]

I've seen the "it blemishes everyone" comment before and I don't understand it at all. If you eat in one bad restaurant, does that blemish all restaurants? How is any other frame builder at all responsible for the sins of another? I'd do my research and see that there are plenty with solid reputations.

How many restaurants are there and how much do you stand to lose on a bad meal. Trust me when I say folks outside this forum hear a bad story like this one you give them an argument to buy a stock frame.

Fortunately their are many good trusthworthy builders out there buy not as many as restaurants :) good or bad :banana:

[fourflys]

I've seen the "it blemishes everyone" comment before and I don't understand it at all. If you eat in one bad restaurant, does that blemish all restaurants? How is any other frame builder at all responsible for the sins of another? I'd do my research and see that there are plenty with solid reputations.

I agree, but it just puts a bad taste in your mouth... if you get some bad food more than once at a particular location of a chain restaurant, would you eat there again or would you pick a different location? Kind of the same in this situation... you only get bit so many times before you just go back to production... the entry cost to the world of custom bikes is really steep and not worth the risk to some after reading stuff like this...

[54ny77]

Couple pals and teammates could afford pretty much anything and all of them have gone straight to Parlee for something right off the rack for this very reason. Z3's, Z5sl's, Z5's, etc. They want bike, and want it now. Custom? No time or desire to deal with headache, from the few stories they've heard. Biggest lead time items for them are new blingy parts/wheels/etc. They don't surf the web spending inordinate amounts of time reading about this stuff either, and haven't the foggiest what a [insert artisan builder] is. I would venture guys like that are the vast majority of higher end bike customers. A buddy of mine said once, "Vanilla? Yeah I heard of them I think. One of the guys we ride with has his hanging on his living room wall. Never rides the thing." :banana:


I agree, but it just puts a bad taste in your mouth... if you get some bad food more than once at a particular location of a chain restaurant, would you eat there again or would you pick a different location? Kind of the same in this situation... you only get bit so many times before you just go back to production... the entry cost to the world of custom bikes is really steep and not worth the risk to some after reading stuff like this...

[weiwentg]

A buddy of mine said once, "Vanilla? Yeah I heard of them I think. One of the guys we ride with has his hanging on his living room wall. Never rides the thing." :banana:

AAAAAAH!!!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Fixed]

[
Couple pals and teammates could afford pretty much anything and all of them have gone straight to Parlee for something right off the rack for this very reason. Z3's, Z5sl's, Z5's, etc. They want bike, and want it now. Custom? No time or desire to deal with headache, from the few stories they've heard. Biggest lead time items for them are new blingy parts/wheels/etc. They don't surf the web spending inordinate amounts of time reading about this stuff either, and haven't the foggiest what a [insert artisan builder] is. I would venture guys like that are the vast majority of higher end bike customers. A buddy of mine said once, "Vanilla? Yeah I heard of them I think. One of the guys we ride with has his hanging on his living room wall. Never rides the thing." :banana:

that is the way it was for me too the old timers still knew the days when the best was hand made by your local frame builder ,the newer guys never thought of it ,they bought off the rack what the pros use ( some pros used to ride handmade frames from their favorite builders , some still do) imho ..
cheers
cheers

[54ny77]

the coupla guys/teammates i'm referring to are all 50+ (i hang out with old people ;) ).

they ride & race fast, to put it mildly.

[


that is the way it was for me too the old timers still knew the days when the best was hand made by your local frame builder ,the newer guys never thought of it ,they bought off the rack what the pros use ( some pros used to ride handmade frames from their favorite builders , some still do) imho ..
cheers
cheers

[Fixed]

the coupla guys/teammates i'm referring to are all 50+ (i hang out with old people ;) ).

they ride & race fast, to put it mildly.

if they are 50 and raced when they were 20 they know about frame builders
alignment tables etc.

maybe they are pulling your leg
cheers :)

[pdmtong]

A buddy of mine said once, "Vanilla? Yeah I heard of them I think. One of the guys we ride with has his hanging on his living
room wall. Never rides the thing."

I've been riding mine a lot around here and have not yet run into a single person who knew anything about it. For instance, guy on a Z3/SR11 looks at it and asks...what kind of bike is that? I almost said "one that costs more than yours" but didn't...instead I usually just go with a "small custom steel builder in portland". I bought the damn thing for myself, and not to "impress" others.

[MRB]

Collectively there have been over a half-dozen Forum-Pals that have PM'd me with similar experience with this FB. To varying degrees, these others are in similar situation you and I are in.

I am sorry you have had to go through this. It is no-doubt a painful experience. I commend you for your straight-forward post. Most FB's, (all of the other ones that I know of in Montana) are top-notch. That being said, when I opened my thread about my Taylor experience, I had an FB (who live a long way from Montana) tell me (via PM) that I "Hung Him Out to Dry" I hope that this same FB has read your thread, and can ponder it.

Again...welcome to the Forum. I'm sorry to hear of your financial loss, and wish I could assure that Taylor will make good on his word. I don't believe he will.

[gdw]

Let me get this straight, the forum has had several threads about a framebuilder who ripped you and several other members off and another framebuilder sent you a pm chastizing you for your posts........ that's really pathetic.

[93legendti]

If I was a reputable frame builder, I would not be picking on the messenger re a bad frame builder...strange...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_the_messenger

[Aaron O]

I'm not a subject matter expert or attorney so take this with a grain of salt. He's doing business across state lines...it's happened to several people...I'd be researching federal fraud statutes and the like and talking to the federales.

[eddief]

and give him a chance to explain his self. a whole lotta crap goes on on the net and at some point even i start to believe. still does not make it true. i know squat about Brent Steelman, but i luv luv his stuff...and he seems to have come forward to explain his situation & i can feel the luv for Brent, but not yet Paul. i can't afford Brent, but my luv is for free.

Let me get this straight, the forum has had several threads about a framebuilder who ripped you and several other members off and another framebuilder sent you a pm chastizing you for your posts........ that's really pathetic.

[Fixed]

he is cutting his own throat with all the bad p.r.
there are so many carrots in the garden .
i don't pick the bad ones .
cheers

[rugbysecondrow]

and give him a chance to explain his self. a whole lotta crap goes on on the net and at some point even i start to believe. still does not make it true. i know squat about Brent Steelman, but i luv luv his stuff...and he seems to have come forward to explain his situation & i can feel the luv for Brent, but not yet Paul. i can't afford Brent, but my luv is for free.

Paul is a forum member, has posted here and has followed threads here below.

Don't believe what people post about him. If it suits your sense of fairness email him or PM him yourself, no need for the admin to do the job for you.

Feel free to give your money to him if you like as well, but know most would consider it unwise.

[MRB]

Let me get this straight, the forum has had several threads about a framebuilder who ripped you and several other members off and another framebuilder sent you a pm chastizing you for your posts........ that's really pathetic.
Yep...correct you are

[eddief]

and thanks for your suggestions and warnings. so helpful. hope you don't think i'd ever take the high road by own self.

Paul is a forum member, has posted here and has followed threads here below.

Don't believe what people post about him. If it suits your sense of fairness email him or PM him yourself, no need for the admin to do the job for you.

Feel free to give your money to him if you like as well, but know most would consider it unwise.

[rugbysecondrow]

and thanks for your suggestions and warnings. so helpful. hope you don't think i'd ever take the high road by own self.

And the high road is?????

When I wrote my first feedback on Taylor 18 months ago, I told him about it and invited him to respond to anything that was incorrect or misstated, which he had a different opinion. He chose not to. Paul is a nice guy, you want to root for guys like him, but at some point enough is enough.

[SamIAm]

Yep...correct you are

Are you telling me that you still don't have your frame???? That is beyond ridiculous.

As sad as this thread is, one bright point for me is that there is a noticeable lack of apologist activity from the usual suspects. Normally we would have already had some speculation on this actually being a customer issue. Then we would get the there are two sides to every story. Then there are three sides to every story, yours, mine and the truth.

I mean Eddie's trying, but not very hard.

[Joachim]

I think the "old school" mentality of framebuilders being held to different standard than other businesses are/should be changing. If a client pays me 10k (or a deposit up front with the rest upon completion) to complete a project, you can bet your Rapha chamois that I have to a) meet that deadline, b) actually do the project and c) lose my job or worse if I take the money and run/keep silent. If you can't do your job or run your business, go do something else.

[pdmtong]

Are you telling me that you still don't have your frame???? That is beyond ridiculous.

As sad as this thread is, one bright point for me is that there is a noticeable lack of apologist activity from the usual suspects. Normally we would have already had some speculation on this actually being a customer issue. Then we would get the there are two sides to every story. Then there are three sides to every story, yours, mine and the truth.

I mean Eddie's trying, but not very hard.

In principle there are three sides, yes. But if you've paid your money, and haven't gotten the goods/frame, with continued schedule slippage, and poor communication there isn't much left to understand.

I suppose it could be a customer issue, if the customer kept changing mind on options, paint, etc. ... but hopefully someone claiming poor FB behaviour would also be forthright and and own their piece of the puzzle.

[SamIAm]

In principle there are three sides, yes. But if you've paid your money, and haven't gotten the goods/frame, with continued schedule slippage, and poor communication there isn't much left to understand.

I suppose it could be a customer issue, if the customer kept changing mind on options, paint, etc. ... but hopefully someone claiming poor FB behaviour would also be forthright and and own their piece of the puzzle.

The multitude of consistent complaints is crowding out all but one side of this sordid story.

[palincss]

I fail to understand how this could not be a crime.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I fail to understand how this could not be a crime.

. . . a criminal complaint with the appropriate agency, then it cannot be found to be a crime.

Speaking as a custom bike owner and forum memeber--NOT as a moderator--the customers who have posted about Mr. Taylor are very patient souls, IMHO. Far more patient than I. If it were me I would have sought out law enforcement assistance some time ago.

I'm not sure legally at what point taking someone's money with promise to deliver a product, then NOT delvering, it becomes a crime. 6 months? A year? Not sure. But promising to deliver across state lines--interstate commerce--and then not doing so clearly seems to me to be a federal matter.

BBD

[dave thompson]

My 2 Pesos. I had a very good experience with Paul Taylor. He built a bike for me that was exactly what I wanted, it was delivered only a week or so beyond the promised deadline and there were some unexpected included extras that he didn't charge me for. I was and am a very satisfied customer of his. Paul is quite talented, and at least as to my experience, a pretty nice guy.

That said, I cannot fathom why he does what he does to others. An example that I experienced first hand, was when I was attending the San Diego Bike Show several years ago contemplating having Paul make a bike for me, Ken Robb was with me and wanted Paul to make him a bike too. Ken and I spent several days with Paul, his wife and daughter and his Mom. We went to dinner with them, spent the better part of a day at Paul's hotel discussing our respective bikes and we both gave Paul a deposit for our build. Ken and I spent a lot of face time with Paul. Our bikes were to be built one right after the other. Like I said earlier, mine was delivered. it was perfect and and within a gnat's hair of exactly on time. Ken's bike, on the other hand, was late, I forget by how much, and when it did arrive it was totally FUBAR, not at all what I heard Ken order. Ken did wind up getting his money back from Paul with some effort.

[Climb01742]

at some point, almost every industry creates an industry group to set standards and 'police' industry practitioners. (in advertising, for example, it's called the 4A's.) i wonder if frame builders will ever step up? i'd imagine that at some point, the responsible, businessmen/women builders would get fed up with behavior that reflects badly on the profession.

[JLNK]

When this topic has come up in the past I have posted my experience. My experience was that I ordered a frame from Mr. Taylor, which was beautiful, and based on that experience I ordered another. I was told by Mr. Taylor that the second frame was ready for shipping in an email on 9/15/2010. No last minute changes were suggested by my for this frame. The second frame has never arrived, nor has my deposit been returned, and this is after a number of emails going back and forth between Mr. Taylor and myself. If Mr. Taylor feels this is not an accurate description of these events then I wouild welcome his posting to this topic.

[Fixed]

he could get kicked out the frame builders union
cheers

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . seems to have become the overriding sentiment in this case.

The seeming inconsistency of the service is puzzling. One customer has a great experience, the other has a disaster. But regardless of the reasons behind the bad cases, at this point my takeaway as a potential customer would be that if I order a bike from him there is a significant chance I will not get a bike and not get my money back. The fact that Mr. Taylor almost certainly is aware of these public comment threads and has chosen not to give any kind of answer pretty much seals the deal for me as a buyer. I'm going elsewhere.

BBD

My 2 Pesos. I had a very good experience with Paul Taylor. He built a bike for me that was exactly what I wanted, it was delivered only a week or so beyond the promised deadline and there were some unexpected included extras that he didn't charge me for. I was and am a very satisfied customer of his. Paul is quite talented, and at least as to my experience, a pretty nice guy.

That said, I cannot fathom why he does what he does to others. An example that I experienced first hand, was when I was attending the San Diego Bike Show several years ago contemplating having Paul make a bike for me, Ken Robb was with me and wanted Paul to make him a bike too. Ken and I spent several days with Paul, his wife and daughter and his Mom. We went to dinner with them, spent the better part of a day at Paul's hotel discussing our respective bikes and we both gave Paul a deposit for our build. Ken and I spent a lot of face time with Paul. Our bikes were to be built one right after the other. Like I said earlier, mine was delivered. it was perfect and and within a gnat's hair of exactly on time. Ken's bike, on the other hand, was late, I forget by how much, and when it did arrive it was totally FUBAR, not at all what I heard Ken order. Ken did wind up getting his money back from Paul with some effort.

[54ny77]

http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2007/startracks/071008/brad_pitt300.jpg

he could get kicked out the frame builders union
cheers

[BCS]

he could get kicked out the frame builders union
cheers


Is that like double secret probation?

I am sure this has been discussed in other similar posts but why is there no contract between frame builder and consumer? When I selected a contractor to build my home addition, we had a contract. Terms and expectations were explicitly delineated leading to an absence of drama.

[Matt-H]

. . . seems to have become the overriding sentiment in this case.

The seeming inconsistency of the service is puzzling. One customer has a great experience, the other has a disaster. But regardless of the reasons behind the bad cases, at this point my takeaway as a potential customer would be that if I order a bike from him there is a significant chance I will not get a bike and not get my money back. The fact that Mr. Taylor almost certainly is aware of these public comment threads and has chosen not to give any kind of answer pretty much seals the deal for me as a buyer. I'm going elsewhere.

BBD

BBD pretty much sums it up for me.

[pdmtong]

so if I wasnt part of our little serotta/paceline world, where might I find out about these types of circumstances? which other forums are the usual suspects to poke around as to builder reputation and +/- stories?

brent pulled his plane out of dive and is flying again.

seems like goodrich and taylor are on the no-fly list.

maietta went missing and then let folks know he was hanging it up (closure!)....

[majorpat]

Not knowing any of these guys and never having ordered a custom frame (but want to), maybe we give framebuilders in general too much slack. Since they do something we all think is awesome and we are all admitted bike junkies, maybe we aren't as tough on them as we are on other suppliers of Durable goods in our lives.
Or, maybe too many folks "want" to be a great builder and run a business but probably shouldn't.
Or, maybe really slick internet sites give legitimacy to businesses that haven't earned it. Many builders have earned it and produce great frames on time and on budget, but some don't.
I am all for someone following a dream to make a living creating what all of us consider to be a work of art (and a tool) but the reality is most small businesses struggle and fail.
I don't want to be negative, I want to be realistic.

Pat

[jds108]

Not knowing any of these guys and never having ordered a custom frame (but want to), maybe we give framebuilders in general too much slack. Since they do something we all think is awesome and we are all admitted bike junkies, maybe we aren't as tough on them as we are on other suppliers of Durable goods in our lives.
Or, maybe too many folks "want" to be a great builder and run a business but probably shouldn't.
Or, maybe really slick internet sites give legitimacy to businesses that haven't earned it. Many builders have earned it and produce great frames on time and on budget, but some don't.
I am all for someone following a dream to make a living creating what all of us consider to be a work of art (and a tool) but the reality is most small businesses struggle and fail.
I don't want to be negative, I want to be realistic.

Pat

Putting it this way, it's pretty clear to me that a contract would be a good idea. I'm curious to see if/who picks up on this idea and implements it.

I once bought a couple of puppies and didn't bother considering the contract. Six months later when I found out they both had shallow hip joints, the breeder stopped returning my emails/calls. Reading the fine print of the contract, I decided it wasn't worth the effort to pursue it. Live and learn I guess.

[rwsaunders]

Seems like a contract would make sense, if nothing other that a simple work order or purchase agreement. I have wondered if you place a deposit; $500 in a lot of cases; and the builder closes shop or dies, how is one guaranteed that the deposit is returned?

[93legendti]

A contract is only paper. I suspect someone willing to take a deposit and not provide goods is not scared by a contract...enforcing the contract is a whole other matter.

[MattTuck]

A contract is only paper. I suspect someone willing to take a deposit and not provide goods is not scared by a contract...enforcing the contract is a whole other matter.

True that. The details needs to be spelled out exactly and precisely with regards to what the punishments are for non-performance, and breach of contract, and no bike builder would write into a contract "if i don't deliver, I owe you $1 million". and even if they did, you'd still have to go to court to get it enforced if you were dealing with a dishonest person.

I got some excellent advice re: taylor 4 years ago, and although the bikes seem impressive, his 'special deals' turned out to be too good to be true.

[PoppaWheelie]

. . . a criminal complaint with the appropriate agency, then it cannot be found to be a crime.


A few months ago I called the county court and downloaded all the appropriate forms to file a complaint. Part of the difficulty is that I have no idea where he is...so I have no idea where the registered notice needs to go. Paul doesn't have an address on his website (not sure if it was ever there or if he removed it) and any/all communication for the past few months has gone unanswered. His main business line is no longer in service and the new secondary line doesn't accept voicemail. I've called local shops and clubs...as well as one other abroad that appears to rep his brand...to no avail. Short of flying to MT myself or hiring a PI to track him down I'm not sure how to proceed on this front.

That being said, I do just want my frame. I like Paul personally and don't want to make whatever is going-on worse...so the thought of a head-on fight is certainly distasteful. One would hope that a public airing of the laundry like this would generate some response...but emails/calls from as recent as last week have continued to be ignored.

[Fixed]

a local process server
could find him cheers

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . if you find the local expert these guys know how to find people who are trying to avoid it.

BBD

a local process server
could find him cheers

[gearguywb]

After reading this, and several other threads, I wonder how much money we are talking about here. What is the number of frames that are beyond the "promised by" date, and the amount of deposits/payments in full are outstanding. I am getting the feeling that we are talking about some real numbers here...not an isolated instance or two.

[Keith A]

A few months ago I called the county court and downloaded all the appropriate forms to file a complaint. Part of the difficulty is that I have no idea where he is...so I have no idea where the registered notice needs to go...Don't know if this information is still accurate, but a quick web search turned this up...
http://www.manta.com/c/mmybgz7/taylor-bicycles

[Fixed]

. . . if you find the local expert these guys know how to find people who are trying to avoid it.

BBD
or Keith
cheers

[Ken Robb]

Don't know if this information is still accurate, but a quick web search turned this up...
http://www.manta.com/c/mmybgz7/taylor-bicycles

He wasn't in Montana in 2007. He was in Nevada until 2010.

[Aaron O]

Is he incorporated? If so, he should be fairly easy to track down. I'd be surprised if he's not. My company's internet is wonky right now, but I found this using google ( I wasn't able to open it):



Taylor Bicycles Company Profile - Located in Mill Valley, CA - Paul ...
www.corporationwiki.com › California › Mill Valley
Nov 15, 2011 – Taylor Bicycles has a location in Mill Valley, CA. Active officers include Paul Taylor. The company's line of business includes Ret Sporting ...

If he's incorporated at the address above I'm pretty sure that he can be served there as an individual or a corporation. I'd call him at that number/address and ask where you can mail a deposit. Serve him there with a civil suit and provide it to any outside agencies for potential criminal fun.

I'm pretty confident that this guy is breaking several laws if he's not delivering the frames or refunds. Make sure you're all saving all correspondence. As far as the lack of a contract, it would be nice if you had one...but it's not essential to go after him criminally or civil. By accepting cash he is under contract to produce services.

[Keith A]

BTW, his "contact us" page on his website lists him being in Bozeman, MT...just no address.
http://www.taylorbicycles.com/contact.html

[Fixed]

safe houses
government protection program :eek:
cheers :help:

[Joachim]

safe houses
government protection program :eek:
cheers :help:

That's what happens when you take a deposit from a cartel boss for a frame and never deliver.

[Joachim]

There is no one on the forum that can go knock on his door in Bozeman?

[Aaron O]

I am not an attorney and I don't play one on TV. Take this with a grain...

If it were me...play time and talk time are over. Serve him by sheriff service on the civil part (and if it's enough money and people, consider talking to an attorney about class action). He's selling across state lines so you can file it in your local federal district court. I'd file it in your area...he's obligated to fight it in your neck of the woods. Start talking to a fed on the criminal/fraud part. If you want to negotiate, do it after he's got people knocking on his door and papers with his name on them.

Other fun stuff...I'd research the address he's operating out of and check the local zoning laws.

[Bikingbob]

I have been following the tread. Lots of good points. I admit I feel like a fool having been swindled out of $2150. Mr. Taylor certainly seemed like a reliable guy and after all he was exhibiting at the San Diego Custom Bike Show. Wish I had been done a better job checking him out. He had bilked out others long before me.

The last known address I have for him is 122 Laura Court, Bozeman MT 59718. That's where I mailed my final payment to him.

BTW I have a Carl Strong frame, also from Bozeman, which is a dream bike. I should have had him build the custom frame I contracted with Taylor. Unfortunately Carl was not at the show to wow me with his work as Taylor did.

I am guessing the next time I will Mr Taylor he will be panhandling at any intersection. He has certainly destroyed his reputation as a craftsman.

[Fixed]

i would not want to be him if he runs into mr kirk :bike:
this is bad for all the good guys
cheers imho

[rwsaunders]

I read on Strong's blog that PT is doing some painting work. Perhaps someone who knows PT well can mediate like in the case of the Goodrich issue that surfaced a while back. No party wants to be taken advantage of but perhaps PT needs a trusted voice of reason to help reset the course. Any mountain can be climbed.

[eddief]

were those who went in for his grand bargain a while back. where he offered up a custom frame and fork for a really good price for a limited period of time. i almost pulled the trigger on sending a deposit, but fortunately other considerations won out. sounds like my nice guy approach mentioned a couple message up would be wasted. think Rugby right. maybe he escaped back into the penal colony where he came from - Aus.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

I can't help but feel that pursuing a civil remedy in court is going to do anything here other than cost the bilked customers more money. If Mr. Taylor is broke (a distinct possibility), a civil judgment isn't going to get you what you are owed, as it will be difficult to enforce.

Pursuing a criminal matter, however, will most likely get Mr. Taylor's attention. Nobody likes to have their freedom confined to a 10x10 cell. From what I understand (I am not a criminal lawyer), prosecutors generally require the criminal to make restitution to his victims in cases of fraud as a condition of any plea or sentence.

[Aaron O]

I tried calling the number at the corporate address above and the numbers on his website...all are dead links. I'd start checking bankruptcies. He's required as a corporation to have contact info, so this is definitely extremely sketchy.

I found another site:

http://www.manta.com/c/mmybgz7/taylor-bicycles

[Aaron O]

I can't help but feel that pursuing a civil remedy in court is going to do anything here other than cost the bilked customers more money. If Mr. Taylor is broke (a distinct possibility), a civil judgment isn't going to get you what you are owed, as it will be difficult to enforce.

Pursuing a criminal matter, however, will most likely get Mr. Taylor's attention. Nobody likes to have their freedom confined to a 10x10 cell. From what I understand (I am not a criminal lawyer), prosecutors generally require the criminal to make restitution to his victims in cases of fraud as a condition of any plea or sentence.


Yes and no...it's hard to collect on judgements, but I think they're worth having. If he sells a house or leaves money, you get a slice. I'd pursue it both ways.

I did a little research and he's still listed as active by the Montana Justice Department's unit of consumer affairs at 505 Mineral Avenue, Bozeman, MT 59718-6220. The department of civil complaints has a record of one complaint, which he didn;t respond to. They can be reached at 800-481-6896. I'd call the sheriff in his township as well and I would definitely speak with a federal attorney in his district. The more people complain, the better your odds.

I would call California's Justice Department and inquire about the Cali address I linked above.

[Keith A]

...

I found another site:

http://www.manta.com/c/mmybgz7/taylor-bicyclesThis is the same one I posted earlier :)

[93legendti]

Yes and no...it's hard to collect on judgements, but I think they're worth having. If he sells a house or leaves money, you get a slice. I'd pursue it both ways...
You mean after his mtg(s) and/or tax liens are paid off? A crook can hide assets for a long time. A broke crook for even longer...

Throwing good money after bad...

[Aaron O]

You mean after his mtg(s) and/or tax liens are paid off? A crook can hide assets for a long time. A broke crook for even longer...

Throwing good money after bad...

That's all true. It can be a waste...but I think it's better to have the judgement in many cases. A lot of the time you have to consider the amount and the likelihood that he'll be required to repay it at some point.

[Fixed]

You can't get blood from a turnip
Cheers

[fourflys]

so I'm pretty sure everyone has a pretty good idea on whether to order a Taylor or not at this point...

it seems like there is a lot of "sea lawyering" going on now and that can only turn ugly... I'm fairly certain anyone that has a possible legal issue with Taylor knows how to find an attorney and I'm sure anyone on here who is actually a legal professional can pm them if they want...

Mods- Can I make a suggestion to shut this one down in the interest of all that can be said, has been said?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . the Man With Four Flies has a point here. So I am going to close this one. If you'd like to make an appeal to re-open, by all means PM me. I'd be interested to see if there truly is anything new to be said here.

BBD