Wheel Shifting in Steel Frame Under Force

[Hartlin]

I've had this ongoing problem with my '91 Marinoni that I'm having difficulty resolving. I've rebuilt it with 10 speed Sram and now Shimano groupsets, used multiple wheelsets and skewers to no resolve. It has Campy horizontal dropouts.

When applying heavy force, mainly starting from a stop in a large gear, sometimes when attacking over the top of a climb. The wheel will shift sideways in the dropout and rub on the non-drive side chain stay.

I visited one of our older mechanics in the city who suggested removing the springs from the skewer, which did help to resolve the issue somewhat, but it still happens from time to time.

Does anyone have any suggestions, or has dealt with an issue like this before?

I love this frame, but the issue is driving me nuts. Yesterday it happened 3 times on a 4 hour ride.

[R2D2]

My only suggestion is the skewer isn't tight enough.
Is the dropout plated?

[christian]

This happens on chromed dropouts sometimes.

You absolutely must use an internal cam skewer (Campagnolo or Shimano) with good serrations because an external cam skewer will never be tight enough to hold it.

Other than that, not much to say other than, "Crank it down, hard."

FWIW, my Merckx has similar dropouts and I have never had an issue with a very tight Campagnolo skewer.

[AngryScientist]

You absolutely must use an internal cam skewer

this. lots of those weight weenie external cam skewers look very nice, but they just cant develop the clamping force that the internal cam ones can.

[Hartlin]

Chromed Campy dropouts.

I actually had external cam skewers on it yesterday, and clamped them on tight. I'm assuming the external cams are likely the issue. I'll put a Shimano internal cam on from my MTB to see if that helps.

WTB: Shimano Ultegra Skewer set.

At least I know I'm not the only person with the issue.

I would just hate to have it happen in a race situation.

[Tonger]

I had the same problem in a vintage steel frame. This fixed it, you only need the one for the rear - big clamping force.

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/product-components/2012-dt-swiss-rws-quick-release-skewers-4026.406.0.html

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/product-components/2012-dt-swiss-rws-thru-bolt-4168.406.0.html

[Chance]

Does anyone have any suggestions, or has dealt with an issue like this before?
Yes, and it is a pain.

What others said above worked for me but not 100%. Shimano skewer and making it tight helped a lot. Adding serrations to mating surface of wheel nut and inner surface of drive side dropout (mine where stainless) helped too.

[Hartlin]

I had the same problem in a vintage steel frame. This fixed it, you only need the one for the rear - big clamping force.

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/product-components/2012-dt-swiss-rws-thru-bolt-4168.406.0.html

Very interesting, I'll have to give that a good look if I'm not satisfied with Shimano skewers.

It would be a 5X130MM size correct?

Thanks for all the help gents!

[oldpotatoe]

I've had this ongoing problem with my '91 Marinoni that I'm having difficulty resolving. I've rebuilt it with 10 speed Sram and now Shimano groupsets, used multiple wheelsets and skewers to no resolve. It has Campy horizontal dropouts.

When applying heavy force, mainly starting from a stop in a large gear, sometimes when attacking over the top of a climb. The wheel will shift sideways in the dropout and rub on the non-drive side chain stay.

I visited one of our older mechanics in the city who suggested removing the springs from the skewer, which did help to resolve the issue somewhat, but it still happens from time to time.

Does anyone have any suggestions, or has dealt with an issue like this before?

I love this frame, but the issue is driving me nuts. Yesterday it happened 3 times on a 4 hour ride.


"I've rebuilt it with 10 speed Sram and now Shimano groupsets"

Well, that's yer problem.

Anyway-

Take a bit of emory paper and rough up the dropouts and use a lower end, steel, with wee little teeth, QR.

[Hartlin]

"I've rebuilt it with 10 speed Sram and now Shimano groupsets"

I know I know :( it deserves Campy.

[oldpotatoe]

I know I know :( it deserves Campy.


Marinoni.....I heard it crying from here...

[benitosan1972]

As stated above, file serrations into the dropouts & get a better skewer.

[Chance]

One other suggestion: Lubrication.

As with any cam, the clamping force you can generate depends largely on how much friction there is in the cam mechanism itself. A tiny bit of lube can increase clamping force. And on the subject of lubrication, make sure that the drive side dropout and wheel nut are as free of oil, grease, or chain lube as possible. Obviously any lubrication there will work against you.

Because you are loading the skewer to a very high degree it’s best to use the strongest skewer possible. Steel is generally stronger and stiffer than titanium or aluminum. The recommendation above to use steel is wise in my opinion.

[jvp]

I had the same problem with my merckx, I ended up closing the mavic rear skewer with much more force than I was used to using. I will eventually switch to a different skewer. I really don't want to take a file to the dropouts though. Those DTswiss skewers look good, but they are ~$69 per! :eek:

[Dave Wages]

One other issue here is that once the wheel shifts in the dropout once, it sometimes deforms the metal just enough that now there's a "groove", that just makes the slipping more likely in the future. If you've got adjusting screws on those Campy dropouts, you could try positioning the wheel slightly forwards or backwards so that you're not clamping on the exact some spot where the slippage occurred. I agree with the idea of roughing up the inside surface a bit, but doing that on hard chrome ain't gonna be easy. I'd hold off on filing grooves into the dropout until you exhaust all other options.

From my experience, I like the higher end Mavic skewers for sheer clamping force. I know a couple guys who use them on their singlespeed mountain bikes and don't have any problem with wheel slippage.

Hope that helps,
Dave

[witcombusa]

Are the rear dropouts square?

This will often cause a low actual clamping force with less contact. It also will lead to bent and broken axles.

[Dave Wages]

Are the rear dropouts square?

This will often cause a low actually clamping force with less contact. It also will lead to bent and broken axles.

A very good point, if the rear end has been spread from 120 or 126 to 130, often times the dropouts are no longer parallel and this causes slippage and a host of other problems, including broken dropouts and chain stays in the long term.

[Hartlin]

A very good point, if the rear end has been spread from 120 or 126 to 130, often times the dropouts are no longer parallel and this causes slippage and a host of other problems, including broken dropouts and chain stays in the long term.

ASAIK it's always been 130MM I have not personally stretched it myself at all.

Unfortunately the adjusting screws have been removed so changing positions isn't an option.

I've considered taking it to the LBS to have it re-squared or at least checked for squaring.

[bobswire]

ASAIK it's always been 130MM I have not personally stretched it myself at all.

Unfortunately the adjusting screws have been removed so changing positions isn't an option.

I've considered taking it to the LBS to have it re-squared or at least checked for squaring.

http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/shifting-freewheels-cassettes/parts-maintenance/dropout-adjustment-screw.html

Or

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dropout-Adjusters-Adjustment-Screws-NOS-NEW-NIB-Campagnolo-Free-Shipping-/220957629946?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item337219ddfa

[Dave Wages]

ASAIK it's always been 130MM I have not personally stretched it myself at all.

Unfortunately the adjusting screws have been removed so changing positions isn't an option.

I've considered taking it to the LBS to have it re-squared or at least checked for squaring.

I think that would be worth the effort, and the shop, or you, should be able to source some adjuster screws without too much trouble also. I'll be interested to hear what the shop thinks once they check the dropouts.

Cheers,
Dave

[lovebird]

I had slippage problems on my early 90s Concorde w/chrome dropouts, and while internal cam skewers (Campy) worked after really tightening them down, I eventually just went to this bolt on skewer:

http://www.realcyclist.com/cutter-dead-bolt-skewer-set

I picked them up off bonktown for less than $10. Sure, it's a tiny bit more of a hassle to pull out an allen key, but honestly easier than trying to clamp down a super tight QR lever.

[Hartlin]

Have I mentioned how much I love the wealth of knowledge in this forum? And none of the bullsh** usually found in other forums?

You guys are all true gentlemen and scholars.

Shimano skewer, adjustment screws, and running into the LBS to have it checked for squaring.

Will report back and adjust accordingly if I still can't solve it. At that point I'll look into alternative skewers.

[fiamme red]

On my first ride on my Mercian, I got out of the saddle to accelerate from an intersection, and immediately the wheel slipped and locked up against the frame. I nearly fell over. Since then, I always make sure the D-A skewer is extremely tight.

[mtechnica]

When this happened to me (chrome campy dropouts) after I upgraded to 10sp I fixed the problem with the following steps:

1. Remove the dropout adjuster screws so the axle is all the way back and there is more material for the QR to grab on to

2. Use a better quality skewer. Most lightweight / newer skewers are designed for vertical dropouts. A big metal trainer skewer should do the trick if nothing else does.

[axel23]

The solution for me (early 90s Tommasini) was to use steel QRs. I found an older set of 130s and they did the trick. I also angle the QR lever forward towards the front of the bike and parallel to the chain stay.

Hope that works for you.

[EricEstlund]

When this happened to me (chrome campy dropouts) after I upgraded to 10sp I fixed the problem with the following steps:

1. Remove the dropout adjuster screws so the axle is all the way back and there is more material for the QR to grab on to


Depending on the drop out design and cassette this may lead to less then optimal shifting (though it still may be fine). I generally default horizontal drop outs to the front of the adjustment range (with full skewer contact) on modern systems.

[Rudy]

Does such excessive QR tightening require adjusting hubs more loosely? That was a concern in the olden days but I haven't heard anything comparable in this brave new world.

[EricEstlund]

It shouldn't "need" to be that excessive. The cam skewer is more powerful, not necessarily run more tightly.

[Hartlin]

Currently without adjustment screws I'm running the QR all the way back in the dropout.

Pulled the wheel and cleaned the drop out(which was actually quite dirty) and gave it a once over with some sandpaper. Put a Shimano internal cam skewer on with a nut which seemed to have the most "bite".

Went out for an easy Monday recovery spin, but tried a few times to replicate the issue and it didn't seem present. This was also without tightening the skewer "excessively".

Hopefully this will lessen the issue. Adjustment screws are on the way(no local shops had any). I think having the adjustment screws will help.

[Hartlin]

Little update here, got some dropout adjustment screws and installed them.

So far everything seems to be great, running a Shimano skewer in the middle of the dropouts with the adjustment screws. Took it out for a few rides, and one hard ride with a lot of dirt roads and big gears. It also seems that I don't have to tighten the skewer as much as I did previously.

Only time will tell, but everything seems OK currently. Knock on wood.

[DRZRM]

No, the steel rear one you need is $33, and if you search around you may find it on sale. These work very well, I have them on my MTBs (this sliding rear wheel used to happen with my MTB) and the one road bike with DT Swiss wheels on it.

I had the same problem with my merckx, I ended up closing the mavic rear skewer with much more force than I was used to using. I will eventually switch to a different skewer. I really don't want to take a file to the dropouts though. Those DTswiss skewers look good, but they are ~$69 per! :eek:

[Pierre]

I too used to have the same problem with my Marinoni which also had chromed Campy drop-outs. Three things then took place and I no longer have this issue:
1) got the frame repainted (don't think this would have made an impact)
2) switched from older middle-of-the road quick-releases to Dura-Ace hubs and matching QR's
3) screwed the drop-out adjustment screws in all the way (or rather Marinoni did that) to push the wheel closer to the seat-tube and probably away from the spot I was originally using as per a previous thread. Since then over the space of four years I have not had the problem occur again.

[19wisconsin64]

Hi, I ride 80's and early 90's steel frames, but with older campy drivetrain (friction). i've noticed the same problem on several bike. I weigh 185, and sometimes the gears shift to around due to the force applied to the rear triangle.

My track bikes have a fixing screw on the other side (pointing to the axle from direction of the crankset, which is the opposite of what the vintage frames usually have.) The vintage frames sometime have screws, but these don't help if your rear wheel moves forward on the drive side.)

maybe put in something to stop this movement, otherwise, it may be you are flexing the rear triangle.

your problem is one i've had, so am interested in hearing responses from other's. the frame material makes some of the older steel bikes a little flex under high torque.

[jvp]

switched to dura ace skewers, problem solved!