Double standard

[zap]

Do Serotta formites find it acceptable to refer to Germans as Krauts as per the following threads?

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=10555

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=9979

It appears so.

Certainly no one in this forum raised any objections and many participated without any apparent consideration to the insult leveled at Germans.

Yet, when one member started a thread posting a VeloNews article regarding French cycling and how they wanted to protect there cycling egos, many were up in harms in defense of the French.

Granted, no one called the French names, but if one did, I strongly suspect there would have been a strong effort to ban that person.

But some rightfully came to the defense of the Japanese.

So I find it interesting that many appear to find it acceptable to call Germans Krauts.

I never liked it when people called me a Kraut. It is a disparaging and offensive word (as are all that demean national and ethnic groups) that has no place in society.

[jerk]

hey zap,
don't be so thin skinned. germany and germans in general are not exactly a victimized nation hence a national "insult" like kraut is no better or worse than calling an american johnny or a brit a tommy or a pomme or a frenchman a frog;

plus it could be worse, doofus could have called it the tour de uncircumsized huns.

jerk

[zap]

Jerk-Your missing the point.

[Serotta PETE]

you could be called "Sandy".......

[Fixed]

Zap Bro you got a tough crowd here.Cheers

[William]

I was not offended.

William Schultz

[csb]

actually i could'nt give a rats @ss what you call me.
perhaps my dutch-german lineage is too far removed for
any defensive chest pounding. you just could'nt say/call me anything
that would piss me off. go ahead, use cracker, kraut, butter or
white n... tell me my mother does/did something blue _ pa-leez!

[flydhest]

I only partially agree with Zap that the jerk is missing the point.

I don't recall either of those threads (although I should have checked to see if I posted on them).

The historical and societal context does, in my view, matter a lot in terms of how offensive I perceive slurs. Calling a Brit a "teabag" is not all that offensive for me, while calling an Egyptian a "camel jockey" most certainly is. The Western Europeans are not the target of systematic racism in this country the way Arabs are. Jokes about men not asking for directions are, for me, less offensive, than jokes about women being bad drivers. It's not clear to me that this is a double standard. It is consistent in that the comments are understood in context.

Another difference, I think is intent. When 93LegendTi referred to Japanese people as "Japs" he made it clear by context that it was about malice and that he was associating the whole of the Japanese people with the war atrocities committed by some parts of the Japanese military during WWII. This comment was rude, objectionable, and has no place among decent people.

That said, jerk's off-handed dismissal of the statement was further evidence of the typical insensitivity that causes such comments to be accepted anyway.

Moreover, the fact that someone is sincerely offended by it, to my mind, is sufficient grounds for it to be the subject for extra scrutiny and concern.

[93legendti]

I only partially agree with Zap that the jerk is missing the point.

I don't recall either of those threads (although I should have checked to see if I posted on them).

The historical and societal context does, in my view, matter a lot in terms of how offensive I perceive slurs. Calling a Brit a "teabag" is not all that offensive for me, while calling an Egyptian a "camel jockey" most certainly is. The Western Europeans are not the target of systematic racism in this country the way Arabs are. Jokes about men not asking for directions are, for me, less offensive, than jokes about women being bad drivers. It's not clear to me that this is a double standard. It is consistent in that the comments are understood in context.

Another difference, I think is intent. When LegendTi93 referred to Japanese people as "Japs" he made it clear by context that it was about malice and that he was associating the whole of the Japanese people with the war atrocities committed by some parts of the Japanese military during WWII. This comment was rude, objectionable, and has no place among decent people.

That said, jerk's off-handed dismissal of the statement was further evidence of the typical insensitivity that causes such comments to be accepted anyway.

Moreover, the fact that someone is sincerely offended by it, to my mind, is sufficient grounds for it to be the subject for extra scrutiny and concern.


Nice try, but no, I did not do so. Please do not put words in my mouth because you do not like me.

[flydhest]

Nice try, but no, I did not do so. Please do not put words in my mouth because you do not like me.

Actually, you did.

[93legendti]

Actually, you did.

Actually, I did not. And to prove my point about your animus, jerk's above response, dismissing zap's feelings, was more likely to be considered "rude, objectionable, and has no place among decent people". Wonder why you glossed over that? You can go back to work now.

BTW, are you one of the people who PM'ed Richard and told him not to sell his Legend to me? If so, thanks. I am loving the HC I bought instead from Tony.

[Fixed]

Here we go again. Anyone seen any new carbon bikes from Germany?

[csb]

.

[csb]

I was not offended.

William Schultz

c _ shults _ b

[inGobwetrust]

Zap,

Find something to occupy your time. The jerk's got it right. This kind of PC pettiness is a waste of bandwidth. Before you go nuts on me realize this: I am a minority, Vietnamese, to be precise. Call me anything you want because it's the intent, not the words.............

[Mr. Sensitive]

I was not offended.

Stefan Wenzel, from Frankfurt.

If one is that thin skinned, he shouldn't interact with the public.
Get over it and move on.

[boulder_courier]

...being 1/2 Swede, I have become so offended by the Minnesota Vikings potrayal of my ancestors that I may picket the stadiums they play in - I mean, come on, Vikings did not have dead animal horns on their battle helmets...

[Dr. Doofus]

answer may not suffice

but

"kraut" -- noun, means cabbage

tour de kraut -- tour of cabbage

the deutschland tour is not the "tour of german people" -- although doof toured a german girl once...it is the tour of area called germany...so doof troped on this with a cultural stereotype -- saurkraut, which is yummy

hence

tour de grenouille
tour de kasse
tour be bier

is calling arace in doof's home 40 "toud de cotton" offensive?

[flydhest]

doof,

you eat cotton?

Seriously, though, zap isn't just "German" in the sense of some antecedents came over here, he's from Germany. I think it's a tad disingenuous to ignore the fact that, while lots of people use "kraut" as shorthand for sauerkraut, the use of that word as a derogatory term for Germans is very much real.

In general, that is, not just for doof, that others don't think that this is something that offends them is, I suppose, a tenable opinion, belittling someone's umbrage at a historically insulting word seems a bit unneccessary.

[BURCH]

The tour de CT would have to be: TOUR DE ROCK WALLS They are everywhere.

[Serotta_James]

This thread can potentially be problematic...
Let's wind it down.

James

[pjm]

saurkraut, which is yummy
especially on a brat. Tailgating season is almost here. GO PACK GO!! :beer:

[csb]

This thread can potentially be problematic...
Let's wind it down.

James

titanium kick-stand

perhaps more appropriate, carbon kick-stand

[William]

Upon reflection,
I will admit that I grew up American and thus have grown a thick skin to the usual Hogan's Hero's character references etc... The term Kruat does not bother me in the least. But my Grandmother & Grandfather on my father's side, as well as my father, may very well have had a different reaction. They were not too far removed from coming over to the states. Such terms may hit harder to folks not far removed from the heritage in question.

Now, my mothers side came over in the early 1600's so you could call generations of us Gits or what have you and we could care less....we are far removed from our Irish/British heritage (though we might pop you in the nose just for the sport of it :D ).

William

[Spinsistah]

If Zap feels offended, I think that's what matters. It's his interpretation that counts. "Kraut" goes back to WWII and the Nazi/SS regime. Maybe we ought to be more sensitive to things of this nature when posting on the forum.

To put things into a better perspective, suppose we casually referred to the Jewish, the African-American, Asian-American, etc. by some not-so-kind terms - I'm not going to put these very objectionable words down, although I suspect we all know what they are. No way would that ever, ever be tolerated nor should it be. Mr. Metro is half Japanese and growing up in Indiana as a child, actually had rocks thrown at he and his siblings for that reason. Maybe I'm a little sensitive, but think about Zap's feelings and others that just don't speak up.

JMHO - thanks for reading.

[alembical]

I think when James (and therefore Serotta) ask us very politely to please wind down a topic, we ought to show some respect and do it, rather than making him lock the topic and supervise us all when I am sure there is some other work we would all agree is more important that watching over us.

[shoe]

hey zap imagine if they used the n word on here..when i was in australia they would call me a seppo from time to time(short for yank septic tank). and that was to my face not even over the internet they were tryining to hold my peoples back. ahhh they were jus player hatin i spose.. i would find it some what annoying but i kind of found it funny as well. no real point just thought i would share. such is life - as the famed ned kelly once said.

[Dr. Doofus]

doof's thread started this

please let doof end it

(loves last word, does he)

"kraut" was a gastronomical ref -- and an ill-chosen one, given the cultural connotations

"tour de kaese* mit musik" would have been much funnier, non-offensive, if obscure

(actaully, kaese* mit musik is extramely offesnive if you're anywhere near one consuming it...yet its yummy...and doof has eaten and liked it...yet doof doesn't want to be anywhere near someone else eating it...and while we're at this, *can I get an umlaut from the congregation?)

as you were

just shut up now

hows the veulta paella coming?

(and idja see the deconstructed paella that Desjardins pulled off on Iron Chef America...doof wants to marry that woman...but she'd probably just feed him McDo's cause he sucks...anyway...)

[Fixed]

I am stayin out of this Bro people have strong feelins when it comes to this kind of stuff.Hey I want to know are there any good carbon bikes made in Germany. one of my first work bikes was an A.D. from Germany.Cheers....sorry doc...never mind :beer: :beer:

[Ahneida Ride]

I was not offended.

William Schultz

Neither was I , But then I'm not PC. :butt:

[ShAk]

Great stuff! :no:

[Cadence230]

I could care less. :)

[csb]

I could care less. :)

could NOT care less

[H.Frank Beshear]

Foodry's right let it die. Doc what happened to the mouse? He'd be a wee tiny snack for the foodry, and post something on your Da**ed blog sight I've filled out the questionaire so many times I don't even have to look at the questions any more. For the love of serotta man :D post a new page...Ah fresh infusion of the red and all is right with the world :beer: since they don't have toasting goblets. Frank

[Dr. Doofus]

sarghhh beshear me matey

a saturday yerrseadoof will port 'is ship

write a tale of 'is voyages an plunderin

argghhhhhhhh

[saab2000]

OK Kids,

Serotta James gave us a chance to wind it down......

Let's follow his advice.

I am of close German ancestry and am a German speaker as much as an English speaker. I use the word in question occasionally. It is not offensive in certain contexts but can be if taken out of context by PC people. I am far from PC. It can also be funny to non-PC people. Since this place is about cycling......

.......Let's let this one die a quiet death....... It could get ugly and we are not ugly people, are we?????

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . since everyone else seems to be already. I am German/Russian and I consider the word “Kraut” to be vaguely offensive, not because I take offense, but because the historical context of the word is derogatory--from WW2, as far as I know--and there are a considerable number of people still alive for whom the word retains it’s original semantic impact. People who have no personal experience with the historical context may use the word without realizing that it can offend. Same with “Jap” or “Frog” or “Mick” for the Irish.

But ALL these terms can be construed as offensive, so I avoid using them, and we certainly avoid usingthem in the paper where I work. This is especially true when it’s so much easier AND more accurate to simply call them Japanese, French, and Irish. The only place we seem to run into difficulty at the Gazette is with African Americans, as the new PC term seems to be. Some honestly prefer the term “Black.” Others honestly prefer “African American,” and no matter which one we use we end up offending someone. I’m happy to call people whatever THEY want to be called, but I really can think of no one of German ancestry I’ve ever met who likes being called a “Kraut.” So why walk out on a limb? Just say German and be safe and fair to all.

Let’s move on, but let’s not forget what education this thread may have given us about the way others see the world. And isn’t that one of the nice things about this forum, anyway? To teach us something of understanding for others and the ways of the world beyond cycling? Zap may have come across as somewhat strident, but he makes a good point. Just because we are online and not face-to-face is no reason to skip thinking about HOW we say something before we actually DO say it . . .

BBDave

[BumbleBeeDave]

Thanks to Serotta James for taking our suggestions to heart and giving us a chance to police ourselves, rather than just making the thread disappear. It’s a courtesy I really appreciate.

Can we get back to making suggestive jokes about Sandy and Kevan now? . . . ;)

BBDave

[saab2000]

BBD is right. Let's move on. To cycling topics. There have been some good ones lately even though I thought they had all dried up.

[e-RICHIE]

i got an idea...
if someone uses a term that offends you, send them
a PM or an email through the board software. that
way it won't escalate into this thread.
i got called to the carpet for a post in april and
i handled it privately. all's well that ends well.
are you catchin' my drift?
e-RICHIE©™®

[BumbleBeeDave]

I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to discipline you. Your post contained absolutely no suggestive remarks about Sandy and Kevan . . .

Now, have you heard about the three Serotta Forumites who walked into a bar and . . . ;)

And what about all these weird new bike names? For instance, take my Meivici--PLEASE! :rolleyes:

BBDave

[Fixed]

What about German bikes any good ones My old A.D. was pretty nice made by Mercedes Benz. you guys know me don't ask me to spell the A.D.Cheers
:beer: Time for a beer

[The Spider]

Bikes:

Storck. Isaac. Ghost.

Componentry:

THM. Tune. Shmolke. Magura

Enjoy. In multitudes.

[Kevin]

Anyone have a good German handlebar to suggest?

Mick Kevin

[William]

Anyone have a good German beer to suggest? :beer:


William

[The Spider]

Schmolke, very highly rated handlebar.

DAB, good all purpose beer. Able to be purchase in 5 litre mini-kegs for you and the peloton.

Danke.

Zap...feel free to contribute some beer suggestions.

[William]

[QUOTE=The Spider]
DAB, good all purpose beer. Able to be purchase in 5 litre mini-kegs for you and the peloton.

Danke.

[QUOTE]

Isn't that what the bike trailers are for??? Who is going to be the designated beer toter for the New England ride??? :rolleyes:


William ;)

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . THAT’S more like it! :beer: :beer: :beer:

BBDave

[zap]

The intent of this thread is clearly in the title and why nobody raised any objection in the referenced matter. My impression from reading other threads was that many here are PC.

So, I was not sure if people here in the US understood the origin of the "noun". As some already mentioned, it came about during the nastiness of World Wars. Where I grew up in Canada, it was/is not a cute reference but a reminder of German atrocities and defeat. But that was so long ago.

Today, if someone on the street spoke to me, they would have no idea that I'm German or grew up in Canada. I seem to assimilate well. Any reference to the subject "noun" is rare but when it does, my heartbeat does not go up.

Why it did this week might be due to the fact that I'm in a foul mood. And/or that maybe a teacher should know better.

In conclusion, I'm just trying to understand why the referenced "noun" did not raise any objections.

OK, Back to regular programming.

German beer. I do not drink it much here in the US. It's stale and additives change the taste. Fresher brews are crafted right here in the US.

Another German bike is Canyon.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I'm going to assume . . . that whoever used the word did so in well-intentioned ignorance, rather than malice, and that this thread has been a learning experience for us all. :)

Let's move on and make Serotta James happy.

BBDave

[Fixed]

anybody try Chimay? (spelling?) that is some good beer Bro.i.m.h.o.

[gdw]

I don't believe anyone should be using derogatory racial terms in this forum but really can't stand this "politically correct" b.s. I've felt the term was ridiculous from the first time I heard it uttered. It makes no sense. Who determines what is politically correct...Democrats, Republicans, Socialists, etc? PC sounds like a term out of Orwell's 1984 and I find it offensive.

That said, I better cut short the two minute hate session and get back to work before the thought police show up.

[jdoiv]

that was a funny movie...
Liked seeing George Clinton play a frat party...

Funny s**t :D

[RichMc]

Sorry. Got news for you pal. The thought police have already shown up. They are so very subtle. PC sucks. I better not say anymore before someone's widdle feelings are hurt. Not necessarily yours though. :D

[Dr. Doofus]

[QUOTE=zap]
So, I was not sure if people here in the US understood the origin of the "noun".

Why it did this week might be due to the fact that I'm in a foul mood. And/or that maybe a teacher should know better.
[QUOTE]

I myself said it was a poor choice of words

for the origin of the noun "kraut," one would actually need to consult the etymology of the word as it developed in germainc-speaking cultures. what you are speaking of is, in fact, the origin of one specific -- though nonetheless common and powerful -- negative connotation of the word as it has been used in north america since the mid-twentieth century.

a teacher should know better? indeed, I should have thought of how one may miss the attempt at wordplay (the metonymy of "kraut" for "Deutschland" -- which I tried to suggest with the parallel of "tour de cotton," a name a bored sportswriter might cook up for the tdg), and miss the point that the race is not "tour of the german people" but "tour of the german land," so that, following the denotative function of "deutschland" one would see "Kraut" as referencing "cabbage" and not "german person."

attempts at subtlety that fail are inevitably the result of a poor design -- I'll admit that much.

I'm sick of apologizing and of having explanations of intent castigated as BS or weak rationalizations

screw this

wife says I waste too much time here anyway

god knows that yes, as a teacher, I have better things to do

later

or never

who cares

[BURCH]

anybody try Chimay? (spelling?) that is some good beer Bro.i.m.h.o.


Really like Chimay and most other belgium beers, just hate the price. That little bottle of chimay (red or blue label) fetches upwards of $9 to 10 per bottle in my area.

[dave thompson]

Here in Austria, beer is cheaper than water. Literally!

[William]

Where is Ginger? :confused: I need to be scolded. :no:


Bad, bad, bad, really bad William :banana:





PS: So, I was not sure if people here in the US understood the origin of the "noun".

A person, place, or thing. I sing along with my kids everyday watching School House Rock. :D

Lolly, Lolly, Lolly.....
;)

[Fixed]

Really like Chimay and most other belgium beers, just hate the price. That little bottle of chimay (red or blue label) fetches upwards of $9 to 10 per bottle in my area.
I have not had one bad Belgium beer there all good. Cheers :beer:

[JohnS]

Is Commie still acceptable? :beer:

[William]

Is Commie still acceptable? :beer:


As long as you don't use "Pinko" Commie. Bill B. might get upset that you slanderd the work "pink". :no:


William ;) ;) ;) :beer:

[Matthew]

They are the best in all of football. Sorry they offend you.

[The Spider]

Soon as I start reading posts that quote 1984 I know I'm home.

When it comes to Belgium beer, since it's summer up there...crack open a Hoegardeen (and crack one for your S.O too), light, aromatic and delicious.

Cause it's winter down here...I've a nice pint of Beamish Red.

[csm]

can't we all just get alone?