I am amazed

[Bruce K]

As much as I like this forum and all of you in it, I am amazed at all the garbage that has been written about the Meivici and Serotta in the last week.

How many of you have seen the bike? So far as I know only 4 forumites have even seen one (myself, spinsistah, dehooptah, and spiderman).

How many of you have talked with Ben, Kelly, or anyone else at Serotta concerning their philosophy as to what this bike is supposed to be or what they can do with the various components to customize each bike for their customer (the possibilities are apparebtly endless)?

How many of you have ridden it? So far as I know - zero.

For me, the bottom line is that virtually noone here has any real first hand knowledge with which to critique this bike.

If you are unhappy that your Ottrott has possibly been surplanted by a newer, possibly better technology, it's too bad. Go buy a computer and then go back in 3 or 4 weeks and see what your money buys, or what's available then.

Stuff changes. Technology improves. And costs do increase for new technology.

Ben and his gang like designing bikes and like looking for the next newer better improvement. If you don't like what they've done, don't buy it. But at least wait until you understand what they're trying to do before you critisize what you THINK they are doing.

Off the soapbox now....

BK

[inthegutter]

Good post.

It completly cracks me up to hear people who have $6,500 Ottrotts saying how utterly rediculous a $9,000 frame and fork is. Do you have any idea what everybody else is saying about you? Get some perspective.

[dirtdigger88]

Good post.

It completly cracks me up to hear people who have $6,500 Ottrotts saying how utterly rediculous a $9,000 frame and fork is. Do you have any idea what everybody else is saying about you? Get some perspective.

its $9000.00 now!!!! man the price keeps going up

Jason

[David Kirk]

As much as I like this forum and all of you in it, I am amazed at all the garbage that has been written about the Meivici and Serotta in the last week.

How many of you have seen the bike? So far as I know only 4 forumites have even seen one (myself, spinsistah, dehooptah, and spiderman).

How many of you have talked with Ben, Kelly, or anyone else at Serotta concerning their philosophy as to what this bike is supposed to be or what they can do with the various components to customize each bike for their customer (the possibilities are apparebtly endless)?

How many of you have ridden it? So far as I know - zero.

For me, the bottom line is that virtually noone here has any real first hand knowledge with which to critique this bike.

If you are unhappy that your Ottrott has possibly been surplanted by a newer, possibly better technology, it's too bad. Go buy a computer and then go back in 3 or 4 weeks and see what your money buys, or what's available then.

Stuff changes. Technology improves. And costs do increase for new technology.

Ben and his gang like designing bikes and like looking for the next newer better improvement. If you don't like what they've done, don't buy it. But at least wait until you understand what they're trying to do before you critisize what you THINK they are doing.

Off the soapbox now....

BK

Thank you.

Dave

[Bradford]

Finally, a rational voice. :banana:

[jerk]

hey the jerk is the jerk and he didn't say anything except that he was speechless and that he's sure that like most cutting edge bicycles it's way underpriced.

(which by the way is the same thing the jerk says about manny ramirez so take that as you will.)

jerk

[Louis]

Bruce,

Everyone’s entitled to his or her opinion. That doesn’t mean that it has to be an informed opinion. If we were to always set the bar as high as you seem to propose (1 – seen it in person, 2 – had an in-depth discussion of cycling philosophy with Ben and Kelly, 3 – ridden the bike) things would be pretty boring around here.

In my case I saw a picture or two of the bike, thought it was not the best looking thing in the world (especially 1) after the news about the CSi line being shut down, and 2) the cost), but decided to keep my thoughts to myself. If others want to share their ideas I have no problem with that. You just have to sift the wheat from the chaff. Especially in situations like this.

Louis

[Fixed]

Everyone's a critic even if they know nothing about a subject. In music or art reviewers have made artists mad forever. Artists have to have thick skin.Cheers :crap: :argue: :beer:

[Bruce K]

Louis,

I understand. It just gets frustrating sometimes to see things go so far off the track.

This is a bike I will only own if I win it in the DPF raffle. OTherwise, I am perfectly content with my Ottrott.

I have no problem with Ben and Co. looking for the next best thing. If they didn't we would one day be critisizing them for falling behind other bike companies. I guess they just can't win with some folks.

BK

[Smiley]

Bruce , I can't say I am surprised , why cause Serotta probably expected this reaction in a way . The price has most everybody talking , problem is the price is not in the ball park of what others are doing , its outside the boundries and to most forumites the price seams well ... just a tad high . This frame is priced out of the average forum members budget BUT not out of everybodys budget . People asked me if it will sell and I said flat out YES , go back 4-5 years ago and recall the Horror of the price of the Ottrott and these same folks expressed the same reaction . It sold and sold well . The Ottrott really is a bargin today based on its glowing reviews . I think with the Meivici Serotta has stepped into the competitions playground and the reviewers will not take it easy on them and they know it , the price of the frame will make sure of this fact . By the way the $ 7995 is the limited edition frame and fork , the production model is cheaper I heard $ 6995 but have not seen this in writing yet .
Can't wait to hear from the people I know that will get a shot at riding this bike what they think . Since I am not a Carbone guy I am focused now on the Ottrott , my guess is the Ottrott will benefit greatly from the technology transfer that the Meivci brings to Serotta . A Carbon seat tube would be a very nice addition IMHO . I did see closer up shots of the frame and was impressed by the sculpted lugs and S bend chain stays too boot . Time will tell how this bike compares to the standard bearers of carbone technology . I think it will do really well cause I think Ben is really smart and would never introduce a just as good carbon bike to say he did it . He was not the frst to market with Titanium either but he was the best in some peoples mind with the Legend Ti . I am NOT betting against Ben and the folks at Serotta :banana:

[ergott]

Hey don't the critics have ANY faith in Ben. You know, he's not an idiot. He knows damn well what other guys are charging. He wouldn't deliberately price himself out of the game (even before the bike is even introduced) if he didn't know something we all don't. Let's see what he has up his sleeves...

[jerk]

he has up his sleeves the obvious fact that racing bicycles are under priced, and a bunch of idiots will pay for just about anything and all you need is a bunch.

jerk

[Johny]

This is a bike I will only own if I win it in the DPF raffle. OTherwise, I am perfectly content with my Ottrott.



You serious? Wait until you test ride it. :)

P.S. We love Serotta.

[mflaherty37]

What if dis was da case- suppose Ben is supplying a year supply of his beer with the bike?

[Sandy]

Actually most of the criticism of the bike was about the price and later on about the look. I remember no post critical of how the bike rides, since,as you say none of us have ridden it, nor has most of us even seen it.

I don't think that there is a single individual who knows anything about Serotta, who thinks that the bike will not be a stellar performer, as this is the nature of all Serotta bikes.

I was one of the first to be critical of the price. Perhaps I should have kept it to myself. You either decide to buy it or not to buy it, plain and simple.

For ME, Bruce, The price of the Meivici is simply too much, no matter how well it rides, since there are some simply wonderful carbon bikes and other material bikes already being produced. Yes, inthegutter, I own an Ottrott. But my 2004 Ottrott, Dura-Ace equipped, was a whole lot less expensive than the $7995 Meivici frameset.

I appreciate Dave Kirk's perspective and understand it very well. It makes great sense. I certainly know much more than most of you relative to bicycles, but that does not mean that I can not make a personal decision that the price is simply too high, especially relative to what is available. Perhaps you can question how silly Sandy could say what he says, without first riding the bike. Because, I don't care how it rides. Simply too much, no matter the ride.

I have apologized to several individuals from Serotta concerning my thread on the forum, since that might not have been a proper venue to air my personal perspective. I'll take 3 CIII's with F3 forks for less than one Meivici, and have money left over for a wonderful set of wheels, 2 Parlees,....(Based on the limited edition initial price).

I never criticized the bike itself. I understand that the development of the bike was undoubtedly costly. I also understand that the bike will be a simply superior bike, because it is a Serotta. I was not criticizing Serotta, Ben Serotta, or what Serotta is doing. I simply was saying that, for me, the price, no matter what is being produced, is simply too much. It is just a bike, and there are other superior ones being produced, some by Serotta, some by other companies.

I love my Ottrott. To think that I might be unhappy about it being surplanted by a newer and better technology is simply not true. I don't think that the criticisms were not from that type of thinking at all.

Your computer analogy doesn't make sense to me. Buy a computer, and see what your money can buy just a short time later. You can buy a lot more computer, normally for a lot less money. The Meivici is a lot more, not a lot less. It hasn't been established that it is better yet, at least by the cycling computer.

Buy it or leave it. Absolutely. That is the simple choice.


Sandy

[Sandy]

Actually most of the criticism of the bike was about the price and later on about the look. I remember no post critical of how the bike rides, since, as you say none of us has ridden it, nor has most of us even seen it.

I don't think that there is a single individual who knows anything about Serotta, who thinks that the bike will not be a stellar performer, as this is the nature of all Serotta bikes.

I was one of the first to be critical of the price. Perhaps I should have kept it to myself. You either decide to buy it or not to buy it, plain and simple.

For ME, Bruce, The price of the Meivici is simply too much, no matter how well it rides, since there are some simply wonderful carbon bikes and other material bikes already being produced. Yes, inthegutter, I own an Ottrott. But my 2004 Ottrott, Dura-Ace equipped, was a whole lot less expensive than the $7995 Meivici frameset.

I appreciate Dave Kirk's perspective and understand it very well. It makes great sense. I certainly know much less than most of you relative to bicycles, but that does not mean that I cannot make a personal decision that the price is simply too high, especially relative to what is available. Perhaps you can question how silly Sandy could say what he says, without first riding the bike. Because, I don't care how it rides. Simply too much, no matter the ride.

I have apologized to several individuals from Serotta concerning my thread on the forum, since that might not have been a proper venue to air my personal perspective. I'll take 3 CIII's with F3 forks for less than one Meivici, and have money left over for a wonderful set of wheels, 2 Parlees,....(Based on the limited edition initial price).

I never criticized the bike itself. I understand that the development of the bike was undoubtedly costly. I also understand that the bike will be a simply superior bike, because it is a Serotta. I was not criticizing Serotta, Ben Serotta, or what Serotta is doing. I simply was saying that, for me, the price, no matter what is being produced, is simply too much. It is just a bike, and there are other superior ones being produced, some by Serotta, some by other companies.

I love my Ottrott. To think that I might be unhappy about it being surplanted by a newer and better technology is simply not true. I don't think that the criticisms were not from that type of thinking at all.

Your computer analogy doesn't make sense to me. Buy a computer, and see what your money can buy just a short time later. You can buy a lot more computer, normally for a lot less money. The Meivici is a lot more, not a lot less. It hasn't been established that it is better yet, at least by the cycling community.

Buy it or leave it. Absolutely. That is the simple choice.


Sandy

[Smiley]

Again , all must remember that the new frame is a carbone frame , not a steel CSI nor a Titanium frame . I don't think the serotta gang designed this frame to ride like steel or titanium . It will be compared to what the Carbon people ride . Most of us here on this forum are ex-steel guys and gals that were converted over to Ti , time will tell if we can be converted over to let me say for now the new Carbone in the Meivici . And Sandy may eat caviar instead of tuna cause who needs the FISH when you can savor the EGGS :banana:

[Sandy]

I think that a lot of folks here hope that I eat crow, feathers, head and all. :)


Tweet tweet tweet,


Sparrow Sandy

[Bruce K]

No crow Sandy, they're way too gamey.

I too am not jumping in line to buy one.

I was just amazed at the shear volume of criticism for an unseen, untested product based on one e-mail to the Owner's Club members.

Time to ride our bikes (or at least tomorrow).

BK

[Sandy]

You are certainly right about the sheer volume of criticism for a bicycle that had not even been seen. It was massive, wasn't it?

The only time that I have seen so much negative criticism was when Kevin threatened to put nude pictures of me and Kevan snuggling on our Serotta/Calfee tandem. :)


Sandy

[93legendti]

As much as I like this forum and all of you in it, I am amazed at all the garbage that has been written about the Meivici and Serotta in the last week.

How many of you have seen the bike? So far as I know only 4 forumites have even seen one (myself, spinsistah, dehooptah, and spiderman).

How many of you have talked with Ben, Kelly, or anyone else at Serotta concerning their philosophy as to what this bike is supposed to be or what they can do with the various components to customize each bike for their customer (the possibilities are apparebtly endless)?

How many of you have ridden it? So far as I know - zero.

For me, the bottom line is that virtually noone here has any real first hand knowledge with which to critique this bike.

If you are unhappy that your Ottrott has possibly been surplanted by a newer, possibly better technology, it's too bad. Go buy a computer and then go back in 3 or 4 weeks and see what your money buys, or what's available then.

Stuff changes. Technology improves. And costs do increase for new technology.

Ben and his gang like designing bikes and like looking for the next newer better improvement. If you don't like what they've done, don't buy it. But at least wait until you understand what they're trying to do before you critisize what you THINK they are doing.

Off the soapbox now....

BK

Well said. As my LBS, who has been a Serotta dealer forever and a day, says, "I will sell plenty of them". He has sold plenty of Ottrott's, so I do not doubt he will sell a lot of the M's.

This can be a funny place...the CSi being discontinued sure brought the criticism. But, when Smiley ( I think it was him) tried to arrange for Serotta to make some CSi's for the Forumites, only 2 or 3 were ready to put their money where their mouths were...go figure.

[bostondrunk]

The Ottrott really is a bargin today based on its glowing reviews .


lol, well, I wouldn't say 6k is a bargain for a frame, even if there is an 8k frame coming...

[shinomaster]

MAybe they will make me a MEdivici cross bike??

[Needs Help]

Smiley,

Do you know what the size limit is on the Machiavelli(sp?)?

[Kane]

Cheap Bastard Weak Kneed Buddhist that I am, I look at things through an unusual filter. I never buy a Sunday newspaper anymore because of the waste of paper.

I rode an Ottrot and it felt like a bike. I rode a carbon Calfee and it rode softer on a crummy asphault alley than a steel Yamaguchi.

I went to Hawaii for the Ironman race and saw a guy riding bamboo Calfee and I really liked the bike. This was an art piece that you could ride.

As a cheap bastard my first question would be why does the Me.... look so much like the $1500 Calfee. If I didn't like mountain bike riding so much and if I needed a new road bike, I would get a CIII. But, than again, I'm am a self admitted cheap bastard.

Cheers,


Kane

[Climb01742]

bruce, this is what amazed me: the price. a price sets an expectation. to set the price of the Medivici where it is sets an expectation that it is somewhere between 50% to 100% "better" than frames costing $3-4k. that is setting the bar high. that is, i think, a fair topic for discussion. and coming as it did on the heels of discontinuing the CSi, the new frame seemed to signal a shift in the direction of the company. again, a fair topic for discussion. together those two things account, i think, for the heated nature of the discussion.

given what i do for a living, one other thing struck me. the "launch" of the medivici didn't seem terrible well coordinated. or didn't seem to match the nature of the accomplishment or the importance of the frame to serotta. it is a major thing for ben and company. the launch didn't feel major. it felt sorta premature or a bit ad hoc. which makes me wonder if the timing was driven by things out of serotta's control.

[Andreu]

...................happened when the Ottrott was launched?

I agree with Climbs comments about the coordination of the marketing and launch of the new bike.

It seems to me that people are well within their rights to question the look (personal aesthetics) and the price (vs other carbon offerings) of a bike but clearly not the ride. I cannot recall anyone criticising the ride characteristics.

Much of the former criticisms (of price and look) can be avoided with a carefully coordinated launch programme (at least in other industries).

A

[Bruce K]

James;

First off, again, you did an amazing thing with your Mt. Washington effort. Be proud of your effort. You finished while most of us will only ever dream of trying.

I'll give you the launch seemed awkward. Given the bike was going to be in Cincinnati, I'm sure someone said "Oops, it's going to be seen and photographed, we'd better do something."

As for expectations, it seemd that Ben himself has high expectations for the bike. He commented something to the effect that his prototype rode just a little better than his Ottrott, but that the productions bikes would be much better.

We didn't get a chance to get into it much further, but I think one of the key elements is the complete tunability of this bike to a rider's specific needs/wants.

I am not sure what that would mean to the average rider, but it obviously is not targeted at the average rider.

You are correct they have set a high bar for themselves, but given Ben and company's history, I think they are either going to make it, or come real close.

Either way, I think they will sell all of the Meivicis that they want to or can produce.

BK

[William]

Well, I can only speak for myself (though I'm not alone). My comments weren't about the looks or the apparent build if the "M", but more about the pricing. A general lament if you will. I'm sure Serotta will sell them, and if they do, others will soon follow. All part of the general trend of cycling products getting more and more expensive. Sure the "M" is top-O-the-line, and other models cover other price points, but if $8k bikes start rolling out the door, you will see the lower price points climb as well....or go the way of the CSI. And other builders will soon follow suit. They are going to watch and see what happens...either the "M" falls flat due to the price point, or it takes off and Serotta kicks the ceiling a little higher and the others will start scrambling for ladders. Using a little Smiley speak, I don't have to drink that Kool aid and it's certainly within my right to voice my opinion about it. About the ride and the looks? I can't comment. I haven't seen one up close, and I won't be seeing one close to my size to test ride anyway.

On the comment about people not stepping up to buy a CSI:

So what. What's wrong with lamenting the demise of a classic? The CSI had been a bar that many others have been compared and it's sad to see it go. The sudden (to many) announcement that it was being dropped caught many off-guard. Then all of a sudden it's pony up if you want one now. It's not surprising to me that you didn't get too many people stepping up. As DK pointed out for one, a lot of people need to plan out a $3K expenditure, and that's not even counting components to build it up. On top of that, $3k wasn't exactly cheap for what the CSI was (comparatively speaking). If you have the money burning a hole in your pocket that you can drop on an Ottrott or the upcoming "M", that may or may not make sense to you. But just because people may not be able to cough up the dough immediately for a CSI, that doesn't mean they can't morn it's passing or again, voice an opinion.

I think Serotta makes great products and Ben is a great guy, but I'm not a Kool Aid drinker and as such, my opinion may differ.

William

[jpw]

Actually most of the criticism of the bike was about the price and later on about the look. I remember no post critical of how the bike rides, since,as you say none of us has ridden it, nor has most of us even seen it.

I don't think that there is a single individual who knows anything about Serotta, who thinks that the bike will not be a stellar performer, as this is the nature of all Serotta bikes.

I was one of the first to be critical of the price. Perhaps I should have kept it to myself. You either decide to buy it or not to buy it, plain and simple.

For ME, Bruce, The price of the Meivici is simply too much, no matter how well it rides, since there are some simply wonderful carbon bikes and other material bikes already being produced. Yes, inthegutter, I own an Ottrott. But my 2004 Ottrott, Dura-Ace equipped, was a whole lot less expensive than the $7995 Meivici frameset.

I appreciate Dave Kirk's perspective and understand it very well. It makes great sense. I certainly know much more than most of you relative to bicycles, but that does not mean that I can not make a personal decision that the price is simply too high, especially relative to what is available. Perhaps you can question how silly Sandy could say what he says, without first riding the bike. Because, I don't care how it rides. Simply too much, no matter the ride.

I have apologized to several individuals from Serotta concerning my thread on the forum, since that might not have been a proper venue to air my personal perspective. I'll take 3 CIII's with F3 forks for less than one Meivici, and have money left over for a wonderful set of wheels, 2 Parlees,....(Based on the linmited edition initial price).

I never criticized the bike itself. I understand that the development of the bike was undoubtedly costly. I also understand that the bike will be a simply superior bike, because it is a Serotta. I was not criticizing Serotta, Ben Serotta, or what Serotta is doing. I wimply was saying that, for me, the price, no matter what is being produced, is simply too much. It is just a bike, and there are other superior ones being produced, some by Serotta, some by other companies.

I love my Ottrott. To think that I might be unhappy about it being surplnted by a newer and better technology is simply not true. I don't think that the criticisms were not from that type of thinking at all.

Your computer analogy doesn't make sense to me. Buy a computer, and see what your money can buy just a short time later. You can buy a lot more computer, normally for a lot less money. The Meivici is a lot more, not a lot less. It hasn't been established that it is better yet, at least by the cycling computer.

Buy it or leave it. Absolutely. That is the simple choice.


Sandy
Some typo errors are very funny.

"I wimply was saying...", in a tale-between-legs rather than a Serotta-between-legs way. A freudian slip perhaps?

I'm reminded of the "price of everything and value of nothing" retort oft used in such debates. However, we all know the value of bicycles. Price is a function of cost. Serotta isn't 'mass' and so their unit price is always going to be altius. Hopefully the Meivici is also going to be fortius.

I wonder in five years time where the Meivici will sit on the developmental curve line of carbon frames?

How about pouring ionised liquid titanium into a magnetic mould for perfect grain alignment and no welds?

[Ray]

I don't own a Serotta and, given current and likely future pricing, probably won't. As much as I'm sure I'd like one. But I think it's natural to question and be critical of anything that raises the bar (pricewise) this much in any industry because as good as a $3,000 custom frame is (steel, ti, whatever), it seems very difficult to imagine that any frame could be worth THAT much more. Doesn't mean there won't be plenty of people who will buy one and who will love them. And I'm sure in some ways the feel of the frame will justify the cost. But can you imagine the uproar if someone started charging $5,000 for a set of wheels? Oh, never mind.

Also, if I'd made myself half crazy rationalizing the cost of a recent Ottrot (cause that's what it would take) and all of the exclusivity of THAT frame, only to turn around and see it suddenly only the second best offering in its very own family, I might get a bit hot and bothered as well. Even if the cost is fully justified.

Personally, though, as a recent recipient of one amazing $3000 custom and being in line for one more, I LOVE seeing prices fly through the roof. It helps me rationalize, both to myself and those in my close orbit who are paying attention that I'm buying VERY REASONABLY priced bicycles. Jeez, frames that I couldn't even begin to imagine buying a few years ago now don't seem extravagant at all, almost somehow a PRACTICAL purchase. This can only be a good thing!

I can't wait until there's a $10,000 frame so a $5,000 model will seem "really cheap" in comparison.

-Ray

[scrooge]

Personally, though, as a recent recipient of one amazing $3000 custom and being in line for one more, I LOVE seeing prices fly through the roof. It helps me rationalize, both to myself and those in my close orbit who are paying attention that I'm buying VERY REASONABLY priced bicycles. Jeez, frames that I couldn't even begin to imagine buying a few years ago now don't seem extravagant at all, almost somehow a PRACTICAL purchase. This can only be a good thing!

I can't wait until there's a $10,000 frame so a $5,000 model will seem "really cheap" in comparison.

-Ray

Amen!

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . I was at the GEAR rally in Saratoga and Gary Klein was the special guest and Saturday night speaker. He told us about the early years of his company, when he and several friends were still students at MIT and were welding up frames in a basement workshop they rented from the university(?--don’t remember exactly). They were still attending school, chasing girls, and trying to have lives, and they couldn’t keep up with all the orders they were getting as word spread in the cycling community of these wonderful new frames with the oversized aluminum tubing.

So they decided they had to do something or they were going to die of exhaustion. So somebody suggested if they raised their prices--a lot--that would cut down on the orders. So that’s what they did. Gary said it turned out to be a big mistake--their orders increased even MORE because now, apparently, the frames not only were wonderful performers, but also had acquired the air of exclusivity that the huge price conferred. It was about this time that the company really took off and they had to move out and start a REAL business.

I don’t think it matters how the launch of the Big M has been handled. Ben will still sell every one he can make. If anything, a well-coordinated, splashy launch would probably have overwhelmed them with new orders anyway and led to excessive wait times and possibly negated whatever positive buzz had been generated by the introductory dog & pony & dancing girls show.

Ben knows what he is doing. Go ride your bikes.

BBDave

[aLexis]

bruce, this is what amazed me: the price. a price sets an expectation. to set the price of the Medivici where it is sets an expectation that it is somewhere between 50% to 100% "better" than frames costing $3-4k. that is setting the bar high. that is, i think, a fair topic for discussion. and coming as it did on the heels of discontinuing the CSi, the new frame seemed to signal a shift in the direction of the company. again, a fair topic for discussion. together those two things account, i think, for the heated nature of the discussion.

given what i do for a living, one other thing struck me. the "launch" of the medivici didn't seem terrible well coordinated. or didn't seem to match the nature of the accomplishment or the importance of the frame to serotta. it is a major thing for ben and company. the launch didn't feel major. it felt sorta premature or a bit ad hoc. which makes me wonder if the timing was driven by things out of serotta's control.


The launch of this bike is coordinated and professional. We sent out a written release to dealers and owner's club members with information on what was to come. The announcement stated that the bike would be officially introduced at Interbike, an apt place for such an introduction. This event has not happened yet. As stated in the original release, there would be a few opportunities to see the bike before Las Vegas - DPF Event, SF GrandPrix. There is no controversy at the dealer level. They know that we will have an exciting new model to show them at Interbike. The back-and-forth on the forum is seemingly being misinterpreted. The launch does not feel major, because it really has not happened yet. It's like a movie coming out. You see the read the synopsis, see the trailer, and wait for openening night. Opening night being in Las Vegas.

[bulliedawg]

Seems to me a lot of the comments about the new bike have been made with tongue in cheek. Hey, I'm the youngest of five, and like my Mom used to always tell me, "They only pick on you because they love you."

[Bruce K]

Thank you Alexis.

BK

[Roy E. Munson]

If you don't like the Meivici, don't get one.
If you don't like what people are posting on this forum, don't read it.

[Climb01742]

The launch of this bike is coordinated and professional. We sent out a written release to dealers and owner's club members with information on what was to come. The announcement stated that the bike would be officially introduced at Interbike, an apt place for such an introduction. This event has not happened yet. As stated in the original release, there would be a few opportunities to see the bike before Las Vegas - DPF Event, SF GrandPrix. There is no controversy at the dealer level. They know that we will have an exciting new model to show them at Interbike. The back-and-forth on the forum is seemingly being misinterpreted. The launch does not feel major, because it really has not happened yet. It's like a movie coming out. You see the read the synopsis, see the trailer, and wait for openening night. Opening night being in Las Vegas.

alexis, i stand corrected. you're right. undoubtedly the official launch will be great. i'll say no more. :beer:

[bostondrunk]

its $9000.00 now!!!! man the price keeps going up

Jason

9k is for the founders edition, which includes a swiss army luggage rack under the saddle (most of you already have this...), and gold streamers, along with a donut basket on the front (can also have a conversion done to carry Big Macs).

[TimD]

OF COURSE Serotta will sell every $6000 - $7000 - $8000 - $10000 unobtainium fiber frame they choose to make. You don't see many $440,000 Carrera GTs on the discount rack, do you? And Ferrari have a waiting list for the Enzo.

I further bet that "most" folks who buy this frame will have so much disposable cheddar that they will be happy to have found another place to sink it. They might even be cycling enthusiasts as well. But some will simply prop the bike in some special place, probably where their equally or perhaps less well-endowed buddies are likely to see it, possibly the living room, and occasionally lament the fact that it has grown a tad dusty, with maybe a cobweb or two amongst the spokes. Too busy to ride, a pity. Do company management care? Quite possibly not. After all, they've demonstrated their dedication to the sport and maintain a model range with something for nearly everyone. Can't quite manage a Meiblingy (TM)? No worries, one must have goals! Let's try a Fierte, with both we start on the SizeCycle - which we pioneered!

Again, students of Porsche could have predicted events. Faced with competitors selling products with equal, or (gasp!) better performance at lower (sometimes much lower) price points, Porsche answered with the Carrera GT, combining exceptional performance, restricted supply, and Something Else - a combination of name, history, and mystique not available to their competitors and to which a value cannot be assigned by the marketplace, but only by the holder. Could Trek or Cannondale or Colnago equal or even better the technical accomplishment of the Meiblingy (TM), whatever it is? At the same price point, a lower price point, or (gasp!) a higher price point? Of course they could. In fact one might consider bringing reliable, affordable, and very high-performance carbon framesets to the masses a vastly more significant accomplishment.

What these builders don't have, in the collective mind of the market, is the Secret Sauce. Bravo to Serotta for the technical accomplishment, whatever it is and, as businessfolk for attempting to maximize their return on it.

TimD

Postscripts:

1. OK, well, maybe Colnago has the secret sauce. I've only ever ridden one of them, a Spiral Conic SLX. It felt a lot like my Legend Ti. So, why is no one is slobbering over Colnago's CF-1? 'Cause it comes with Ferrari stickers and Campy?

2. I am reminded of a colleague with no kids, two incomes, a 911 cabrio, $25K in tube audio, and about $100K in timepieces who suddenly grew a need for an Ottrott. I've never seen him ride it, despite multiple invitations, but he tells me he rides it around his neighborhood while wearing sweat pants.

3. Will the F3 fork sell at a premium when fitted to the new frame? I bet it will, for purely technical reasons, of course.

4. Ever try to sell a diamond? :)

[93legendti]

...So they decided they had to do something or they were going to die of exhaustion. So somebody suggested if they raised their prices--a lot--that would cut down on the orders. So that’s what they did. Gary said it turned out to be a big mistake--their orders increased even MORE because now, apparently, the frames not only were wonderful performers, but also had acquired the air of exclusivity that the huge price conferred. It was about this time that the company really took off and they had to move out and start a REAL business...

Ben knows what he is doing. Go ride your bikes.

BBDave

Exactly. I serve as an informal business/financial advisor for a friend who started a musical effect company out of his home, selling unique electronic designs of his. When he wants to increase his sales, he increases his prices. Works every time -- he has a wait of list for his products.

[deechee]

People can't speculate? Eesh. Someone gives us a tease (pic), people give their opinions based on -what-they-know- (ie.price, the picture) and we get scolded by a guy who's actually seen the bike and rubs it in our face?

I think that most people here obviously respect Serotta in one form or another (owning one or not); that's why they post here. All I can say is that I'm glad to know that I'm not the only person who thought that even buying a CIII was a big purchase. I doubt I'll ever be able to afford a Melvici, let alone ride one that is custom made for me.

After riding my CIII for almost a year, and hanging around this forum I've learned to love steel. This whole "steel is real" stuff. I defend steel with my friends; I defend the Ottrott saying if Serotta believes its the best bike possbile, so do I. But now, Serotta is saying the best bike *is* made of full carbon. That it looks uglier than most carbon bikes out there. Yes, its a subjective opinion but its an important one that decides between buying it or reconsidering.

All I hope is that the other Serottas get cheaper. CXII please. I want a tri bike...

[dbrk]

I'm think I understand BruceK's point but cannot bring myself to agree. Perhaps I should abjure from any further comment but two things seem apparent: (1) that Serotta is listing it's first Meivici batch at 8K for f/f and (2) that the first example is a compact (as apparently will be the rest, built with 6d of slope). No one has commented on the "ride" though I presume it rides like a bicycle and so that too will eventually be compared with others and, undoubtedly, owners and testers will dish out the expected plaudits. There will be all sorts of opinions ---very few will be negative about the ride, I am sure, but reviewers will be compelled to mention the price and the bike's looks because the price is high and looks are always fair game. Given that we know the price of the initial batch and we've had some pictures (close or far, you can see plenty, as I see it) I don't understand why it should amaze anyone that people have opinions on the basis of what has already been presented.

I confess to being initially bemused by the price but given the inflation of the past two years during which time nearly every bit of "high-end" bicycle componentry has about-doubled in price, I think we should not be at all surprised. As Munson suggests, if you don't like it then just don't buy it. I haven't and I won't, but as a cycling enthusiast I think it's okay to have an opinion, even a "negative" one. As for aesthetics, I'm dismayed that the new bike is a compact just as I would prefer the affordable Fierte to be level-top-tubed. I would never buy (another--been there---) compact: the putative performance benefits don't match my experience, the looks don't appeal to me, and the advantages of their sizing don't apply.

Different bike builders will choose their own directions and futures. I am just sort of sad that my own future cycling interests don't seem tied to the direction of these offerings. 'More than enough said.

dbrk

[slowgoing]

I’m sure the frame will ride incrementally better than all other Serottas, and while the price is out of my range, I hope Serotta sells a lot of them. I’m just hoping the introduction of new higher priced frames doesn’t mean that Serotta will discontinue the more affordable ones, although the close timing of the announcements about the CSI and Meivici seem more than a coincidence. Serotta was and is one of the premier manufacturers of steel frames, and I’d hate to think it may soon discontinue making all steel models (and thereby all Serotta frames in my price range). If it does, hopefully it will provide a last ordering opportunity.

[Bruce K]

Douglas;

I always value and appreciate your opinions.

I was just completely mystified by what seemd to be a high volume of knee-jerk reaction to a product that we all knew very little about.

We can certainly agree or disagree on the price, marketing strategy, etc., but to opine so vehemently over everything from value, construction, philosphy behind the product, etc. without any first-hand knowledge was just making my head spin (pea soup anyone?).

I think that it is unfortunate that the demise of the CSI has coincided so closely with the intro of the Meivici, but I guess you could say one model year is ending and another is beginning.

And maybe with it a change in eras for Serotta or bikes in general.

Let's wait a bit and see what Interbike brings by way of information and first-hand reports from folks who get the chance to check one out up close and personal.

BK

[Spinsistah]

Hey don't the critics have ANY faith in Ben. You know, he's not an idiot. He knows damn well what other guys are charging. He wouldn't deliberately price himself out of the game (even before the bike is even introduced) if he didn't know something we all don't. Let's see what he has up his sleeves...
If Ben was an idiot, he would have been out of business a long time ago. I'm sure there are many people that got into bicycles that failed along the way. Not Ben Serotta - he does his homework. Note that he didn't produce a carbon bike when they first became popular - he waited until he had the technology to produce a full custom carbon bike, not just another cookie-cutter variety to appeal to the masses. Let's give the guy a break.

[BarryG]

As for aesthetics, I'm dismayed that the new bike is a compact just as I would prefer the affordable Fierte to be level-top-tubed. I would never buy (another--been there---) compact: the putative performance benefits don't match my experience, the looks don't appeal to me, and the advantages of their sizing don't apply.
I respectfully disagree. For various physical reasons, I need high (saddle-level) bars and the sloping top tube affords the most aesthetically pleasing (threadless) solution to a frame providing a long headtube relative to top tube.

[deechee]

If Ben was an idiot, he would have been out of business a long time ago. Not Ben Serotta - he does his homework. Note that he didn't produce a carbon bike when they first became popular - he waited until he had the technology to produce a full custom carbon bike, not just another cookie-cutter variety to appeal to the masses. Let's give the guy a break.

Well... at the same time, I'm sure we've all seen our share of favourite stores that decided to expand too much, too soon, or a shop that decided to branch out into new ventures etc. which spelled out their demise. As "slowgoing" pointed out, Serotta is known for the steel and Ti bikes, as Aegis is to carbon or Litespeed with Ti (although they too are introducing some carbon toy for 2006 I hear). For me, its nostalgia; maybe stubborness to accept new times... With the end of the CSI (why couldn't it have been announced WITH the mail about the Melvici? ie. the point of the Owner's Club?) I guess I'm just afraid that their steel bikes will disappear eventually.

[Spinsistah]

Well... at the same time, I'm sure we've all seen our share of favourite stores that decided to expand too much, too soon, or a shop that decided to branch out into new ventures etc. which spelled out their demise. As "slowgoing" pointed out, Serotta is known for the steel and Ti bikes, as Aegis is to carbon or Litespeed with Ti (although they too are introducing some carbon toy for 2006 I hear). For me, its nostalgia; maybe stubborness to accept new times... With the end of the CSI (why couldn't it have been announced WITH the mail about the Melvici? ie. the point of the Owner's Club?) I guess I'm just afraid that their steel bikes will disappear eventually.
I too agree it's a shame the CSI has been discontinued; it might have made more sense to discontinue the CIII since it's the same as the CdA except for the carbon seat stays, and the Fierte offers a steel version as well in a stock frame. I'm guessing it definitely cost more to produce a CSI due to the lugged frame than the TIG welded CIII, but the classic appeal of a CSI is greater than that of another TIG welded steel frame. I'm sure Serotta has a good reason for going this route, maybe sales in the CSI were low.

There also seems to be a trend today for people to move towards the more "exotic" frame materials such as titanium, magnesium and carbon. It doesn't mean they're better than steel, just different. It's a marketing/sales ploy, just like in clothing. For example, if styles didn't change, just how many pair of khakis or jeans does one need? Thanks to the retail industry, you get variety, which in turn, encourages you to spend money.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that any of this would be a surprise to ANYONE who follows this forum. It's been no secret for several years here that lugged steel has been a decreasing percentage of Serotta's sales. It's also been no secret that they recently pruchased a hugely expensive CAD milling setup and would naturally be looking for ways to put its capabilities to good use and recoup their considerable investment.

It seems to me that Ben is obviously taking the manpower resources that were engaged in a decreasingly profitable segment of his business, i.e., lugged steel, and redirecting them to a manufacturing area that will:

A) Make use of the technology of the new equipment he has bought.

B) Recoup his investment in that equipment purchase.

And . . .

C) Be immensely more profitable in the long run.

BBDave

[dbrk]

I respectfully disagree. For various physical reasons, I need high (saddle-level) bars and the sloping top tube affords the most aesthetically pleasing (threadless) solution to a frame providing a long headtube relative to top tube.


Whoa, whoa, wait a minute. I too like my bars tall and my saddle near level. There are _all sorts_ of fit solutions that don't entail 6d of slope. Compacts as conceived by Giant were an effort reduce sizing options and get folks on a few sizes. I have no idea why Serotta has chosen a six-degree slope design but there are all sorts of ways to solve fit issues but it may not have been economical to produce the lugs or fittings required to keep slope to a barely-noticeable, say, 2d (like, for example, Rivendell).
My point is that slope is not a feature of sizing as such but perhaps of economics.

dbrk

[e-RICHIE]

snipped/cut: Compacts as conceived by Giant were an effort reduce sizing options and get folks on a few sizes. My point is that slope is not a feature of sizing as such but perhaps of economics. dbrk


amen, bro'.
e-RICHIE©™®

[Tom]

. . It's also been no secret that they recently pruchased a hugely expensive CAD milling setup and would naturally be looking for ways to put its capabilities to good use and recoup their considerable investment.

BBDave

BAckwards, dude. They bought the milling machine because they already had something in mind.

At the Blue Sky get together I asked Ben Serotta how could it be possible for bikes to get any much better now that the Ottrott was out (that being about the same time) and how could they improve in any measureable way? My point being, at what stage have we gilded the lily? He answered that there really are no new materials, unless we make some more there aren't new things popping up the the Periodic Table of Elements, but the processing of the materials will make the difference.

Ya think they were monkeying around in the back room about then? This thing's been in planning for some time. I'll bet they have a real good business plan on this one and know they'll sell all what they can make.

[Tony Edwards]

A close friend of mine has the theory that the Meivici exists largely to allow Serotta to sell more of its cheaper models, and he may have a point. The price of, say, an Ottrott, sounds that much more palatable when the salesman (or husband!) can explain that, yes, it's a lot of money, but get a load of what their "top of the line" bike sells for!

[Bill Bove]

Doug and e-Richie, hold on there. In Giants case, yes it was economics that dictated the sloping top tube and people liked it's looks so when a company liked Specialized came out with a sloping top tube bike in 1cm increments it was esthectics demanded by the market that gave us the sloping top tube. Some people do like it, some don't. One builder may embrace it and offer it to his custom customers and one may not. To me it is simple, like it-buy it, don't like it-don't buy it, or in your case e-Man, like it-build it...or not. You too e-Dude are building for an audience, how many more bikes would you build if you offered an aluminum or Ti or bamboo model, but that's not your style so those that want what you buld buy from you and those that want someting else go elsewhere. Am I rambleing?

[cpg]

BBDave[/QUOTE]

It seems to me that Ben is obviously taking the manpower resources that were engaged in a decreasingly profitable segment of his business, i.e., lugged steel, and redirecting them to a manufacturing area that will:



Manpower is correct. One man to be even more correct. That's the extent of the manpower engaged in the lugged steel arena. This doesn't seem like a huge manpower resource pool to draw from does it?

Curt

[Andreu]

BBDave

It seems to me that Ben is obviously taking the manpower resources that were engaged in a decreasingly profitable segment of his business, i.e., lugged steel, and redirecting them to a manufacturing area that will:



Manpower is correct. One man to be even more correct. That's the extent of the manpower engaged in the lugged steel arena. This doesn't seem like a huge manpower resource pool to draw from does it?

Curt[/QUOTE]

Not to me .....but an industrial engineer who calculates costs and profitability might have a completely different conclusion.
A

[e-RICHIE]

Doug and e-Richie, hold on there. In Giants case, yes it was economics that dictated the sloping top tube and people liked it's looks so when a company liked Specialized came out with a sloping top tube bike in 1cm increments it was esthectics demanded by the market that gave us the sloping top tube. Some people do like it, some don't. One builder may embrace it and offer it to his custom customers and one may not. To me it is simple, like it-buy it, don't like it-don't buy it, or in your case e-Man, like it-build it...or not. You too e-Dude are building for an audience, how many more bikes would you build if you offered an aluminum or Ti or bamboo model, but that's not your style so those that want what you buld buy from you and those that want someting else go elsewhere. Am I rambleing?


well i said before and i'll say it again - only because
i mined it a decade ago from god-only-knows-where:
capitalism has a way of absorbing the marginal into the mainstream

[Bill Bove]

Good one e-Bubba, no explaining taste, eh?

[e-RICHIE]

Good one e-Bubba, no explaining taste, eh?


i guess you can distill anything/everything down
to the lowest common denominator, as in,
"...i did it for the money".

[bostondrunk]

I'm not a huge fan of compacts either, but I'd say they were a godsend to the smaller bike shops who can't afford to stock too many sizes

[e-RICHIE]

whatever it takes to get 'em on bikes...
that's what i always say.

[Bill Bove]

whatever it takes to get 'em on bikes...
that's what i always say.
So build me an aluminum, sloping top tube so I can ride a Sachs too. :banana:

[Johny]

whatever it takes to get 'em on bikes...
that's what i always say.

EPO??!!

[bostondrunk]

So build me an aluminum, sloping top tube so I can ride a Sachs too. :banana:


hahaha :)

[marle]

well i said before and i'll say it again - only because
i mined it a decade ago from god-only-knows-where:
capitalism has a way of absorbing the marginal into the mainstream


The causality is reverse from what you cite. The mainstream defines the margin. I suggest you pick up the 'Joyless Economy' where the author cites the impact of the dictatorship of the majority. The dictatorship is exterted through the pricing mechanism of both supply (ie marginal cost) and demand (ie income)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195073479/qid=1124909040/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6330259-8848121?v=glance&s=books

[e-RICHIE]

The causality is reverse from what you cite. The mainstream defines the margin. I suggest you pick up the 'Joyless Economy' where the author cites the impact of the dictatorship of the majority. The dictatorship is exterted through the pricing mechanism of both supply (ie marginal cost) and demand (ie income)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195073479/qid=1124909040/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6330259-8848121?v=glance&s=books


no fair goin' to college...

[marle]

no fair goin' to college...

Yes I went to Rutgers at a unique time, early 80's, and was exposed to some cool econ stuff including Scitovsky. Now I just want to ride my bike :)

[slowgoing]

Yes I went to Rutgers at a unique time, early 80's, and was exposed to some cool econ stuff including Scitovsky. Now I just want to ride my bike :)

You actually retained that stuff? I took econ courses at about the same time (mainly just to raise my GPA), and everthing I learned was purged from my memory before my first post-finals beer was finished.

[e-RICHIE]

You actually retained that stuff? I took econ courses at about the same time (mainly just to raise my GPA), and everthing I learned was purged from my memory before my first post-finals beer was finished.


yeah what you wrote.
plus, you'da got more trim in those years bashing capitalism
than finding ways to explain it away. ah - but look at us now;
we've all become our parents! (insert fruit here).

[taz-t]

yeah what you wrote.
plus, you'da got more trim in those years bashing capitalism
than finding ways to explain it away. ah - but look at us now;
we've all become our parents! (insert fruit here).


Au contraire - Maybe if you were trying to make some time with the townie hangin at the 40Watt or the little bohemian that needed to shave her legs in the art school... But if you were looking to get busy with that cutie in the sundress and espadrilles at the Alpha Gamma Delta mixer, you'd better be showing how the Laffer curve and cutting her daddy's taxes would bring back morning in America - these were the Reagan years, after all.

If you don't catch the locale, BullieDawg should be able to fill in the details..

Taz in ATL

ob bike content - Twilight Crit was actually fun to watch in the 80's

[Bruce K]

Taz;

For some of us those frat house days (Sigma Chi) were the Nixon/Ford years. :crap:

But thanks for reminding us. :rolleyes:

BK

[ThylacineCycles]

You know, I've always lamented the fact that there's not enough 20k bikes out there for all the Actuaries and Merchant Bankers of the world. I mean, Imagine you're at the coffee-shop on a Sunday morning, hangin out in your Assos and sipping a half caf half decaf skinny latte next to your Ottrott with carbon Record and Lightweight wheels, and some frikken Property Developer who you HATE rocks up on one of these Medichiniviciolus things! I mean, how do you top that?

[e-RICHIE]

Au contraire - Maybe if you were trying to make some time with the townie hangin at the 40Watt or the little bohemian that needed to shave her legs in the art school... But if you were looking to get busy with that cutie in the sundress and espadrilles at the Alpha Gamma Delta mixer, you'd better be showing how the Laffer curve and cutting her daddy's taxes would bring back morning in America - these were the Reagan years, after all.

If you don't catch the locale, BullieDawg should be able to fill in the details..

Taz in ATL

ob bike content - Twilight Crit was actually fun to watch in the 80's


we hung out at Zeta Eta Shiksa and I Felta Thi...

[slowgoing]

if you were looking to get busy with that cutie in the sundress and espadrilles at the Alpha Gamma Delta mixer, you'd better be showing how the Laffer curve and cutting her daddy's taxes would bring back morning in America - these were the Reagan years, after all.

The Kappa Kappa Gammas and the rest of the sorority sisters were like everyone else - they liked bad boys. The badder the better. I don't think that will ever change.

[Bruce K]

e-richie;

I thought you were a charter member of Tappa Kegga Day. ;)

Oops, that was bostondrunk. Sorry. :rolleyes:

BK

[marle]

You actually retained that stuff? I took econ courses at about the same time (mainly just to raise my GPA), and everthing I learned was purged from my memory before my first post-finals beer was finished.


Ya I met my wife in grad school and she's now an econ prof. So, the 'stuff' is everyday conversation.