Concours CS vs. Legend/Legend ST

[jkap]

Okay, let's continue the ongoing debate but this time with self-serving intentions. Mid 50 year old "aggressive" male tourist about to make the move from steel. I ride 3,500-4,000 miles per year--no racing, occasional paceline with the testosterone set, a couple centuries plus some multi-day charity rides. Average days ride about 25-30 miles--longer on weekends, average speed (alone) in the 17 mph range. 6" or so tall, weight is a couple of pounds either side of 180 depending on what I ate the day before, slightly better than average flexibility. I'll likely try to ride both before buying, but LBS is pushing Legend (ST as well) , I'm trying to figure out if I'll really notice (or need) the difference of nearly $1,000 more of a frame, especially when all will be custom for height/weight. Would appreciate comments from similiar riders and/or fitters and sellers. Help!!!

[Smiley]

Add a Rapid Tour geometry to the list you should consider based on what type of riding you do . If you can buy this theory then forget the carbone stays as the longer chain stays of the Rapid Tour will make up for the ST stay IMHO ( ask Rapid Tourist ) . So for my money its a Rapid Tour Ti ( Concours ) and spend the money saved in better wheels and components . Thats just me talking .

[Argos]

The legend Main-Frame will be stiffer, and though not heavy, you are a big guy and it's gonna be a big frame. The stiffness in the Main triangle will prevent side to Side Flex, but still be comfortable.

Going to the Legend also gets you the ST as opposed to the Concours and it's CS. The funtional carbon Suspension Technology, has a clear advantage over the Carbon stays in that it will allow for better handling, cornering, and descending. If you do alot of touring and distance, over the long haul this will be noticeable.

Keep 2 things in mind. You'll never think about the price difference once you pay for it, and when's the next time you are gonna buy a bike like this? 7-10 years?

I just talked to Santa, he says you are on the "nice" list. Treat yourself.

[flydhest]

6'2", weight anywhere from 175 to 225 depending on donuts, former racer, now just a big talker, rides from 20 to 100 depending on free time.

I ride a Legend. No ST. The ST is a good thing, in my view, but not likely worth the extra dough if money is a concern. The CS on the Concours, do not do it for me, however. If I were in your shoes, I'd get the Legend (non-ST) and an extra set of wheels. Some fast wheels for fast days and some standard stout wheels for the touring.

[Andreu]

.......are you riding now?
A

[Ahneida Ride]

Rapid Tour Legend or Concours .... Forget the carbon stays ...
and you have a lifetime frame.

Consider a Brooks saddle with springs ... for a suspension.

[steven.k.davis@]

I turned 50 this year and decided it was time to buy my "dream bike". I too am tall, 6'5", and weigh 200lbs. I chose the Legend ST because I wanted the durability of Ti when taking the bike overseas. I also wanted to make sure that I wouldn't be regretting my decisions to upgrade later. I did this by biting the bullet and getting the Legend ST and equiping it with top of the line components. I chose the full Campy 05 Record Carbon groupo, Dede Newton bars and stem, and Look Keo pedals. I also chose the Mavic SSL wheetset for its proven durability. The result, is the lightest and best bike I have ever owned and a true joy to ride. I have over 1300 miles on it since taken delivery in late-May. I have no regrets over any of my decisions and I agree with what others have been saying...once you have the bike and are riding, you will forget how much you spent. It doesn't matter. You deserve the ride of your life. Go out and enjoy it!

[Wayne77]

[QUOTE=Argos]The legend Main-Frame will be stiffer, and though not heavy, you are a big guy and it's gonna be a big frame. The stiffness in the Main triangle will prevent side to Side Flex, but still be comfortable.[QUOTE]

How will the Legend be inherently 'stiffer' than the Concours? The Concours is available in OS tubing as well. The only difference between the two is the Legend is triple butted vs double for the Concours, the Legend TT is swaged somewhat and some included finish options on the Legend. The Serotta boys can make the Concours just as stiff as a Legend if desired. Consequently they can make the Legend plenty noodly if desired.

I'm not aware of any effect butting has on frame ride quality (inlcuding stiffness) other than making the frame slightly lighter..

[victoryfactory]

I've owned a Concours CS and a Legend Ti (not ST)
First, I think a Concours may be stiffer because of less butting, not less stiff.
But I really don't think it would be easily felt, given the same size tubes.

Next, It's my understanding that the OS down tube used on both models is
the same tube (someone at Serotta can correct me if I'm wrong)
Which would make those 2 frames even more alike, given the very similar
construction. Ride quality would then become more a function of the frame
size and the geometry, and not so much a function of which model is chosen.

Finally, I think the CS (non pivot) seat stays increase stiffness on the
Concours, vs a Ti seat stay and do not add " smoothness" as is often implied by salespeople.
That I can state from direct experience.
However I have not ridden the ST carbon stay Legend with the pivot. That
might make a big difference.?.

VF, I hope this helps

[Dr. Doofus]

they can tune the ride however you want

its a difference of weight -- and a small amount at that

the ST stay? never ridden one...some say it helps cornering, some say it doesn't

food would say if you want a ti bike, get a concours with ti stays...unless you are strong enough to be a 1 or a 2, you don't need the legend unless you just want to show off the name to your pals

and if you are super strong, they can probably build youn a kick butt concours anyway that will weigh all of a quarter pound more

big deal

or just get a last-run CSi which is what Dr. D. Doofus Esq. thinks you should have if you have any class

[DRZRM]

I'm 6'3", 210-230 depending on when in the year you get me on a scale. The miles I ride are pretty comparable to yours. I've never ridden a ST so I can't really say, but I can't speak highly enough of my Legend. I guess that in the end I'd say ride them both/all and get the one that feels right. I loved testing out my buddy's Ottrott but I can't justify that much cost for ride quality, however the feel of my Legend was worth every dollar. That said, I'll second whoever said you should not leave yourself wishing you'd bought a better bike. I have almost 8 years on my frame, I've upgraded components to DA-10 and slapped on a pair of Easton Orion IIs, and I never experience bike envy on the road (OK, maybe when I see an Ottrott, but who doesn't).

You won't go wrong with either choice, enjoy.

[Argos]

[QUOTE=Argos]The legend Main-Frame will be stiffer, and though not heavy, you are a big guy and it's gonna be a big frame. The stiffness in the Main triangle will prevent side to Side Flex, but still be comfortable.[QUOTE]

How will the Legend be inherently 'stiffer' than the Concours? The Concours is available in OS tubing as well. The only difference between the two is the Legend is triple butted vs double for the Concours, the Legend TT is swaged somewhat and some included finish options on the Legend. The Serotta boys can make the Concours just as stiff as a Legend if desired. Consequently they can make the Legend plenty noodly if desired.

I'm not aware of any effect butting has on frame ride quality (inlcuding stiffness) other than making the frame slightly lighter..

Well you kind of have to compare apples to apples, no? In the Same level tubeset, lets say of 5 variable sets of Tubes, we were to build a bike using level 3 tubes from both the Legend and Concours Tubesets. Well, using the same level of tubeset, the Legend is a torsionally stiffer Frameset. The Triple butted, externally tapered tubeset is what adds to these properties. That was one of the major points of the Ottrott, the Carbon Tubes allow for it to be 20% stiffer then the main triangle of the Legend, torsionally.

Moreso, though you may not think you notice, if you were to have two identical bikes built up, one Legend, one Concours, and it was a size 60+ frameset, chances are you would, in fact notice it. It gets magnified as the frame size gets larger.

Yes, you can Make a Concours Stiffer, to a point, but if you think about it, I can make my Cell Phone louder then my Stereo, too. Turn one down, turn the other up. Now why would I do that though?

All of this said, going back to the original question of one or the other, I'd get the Legend ST. If we are going outside of the box, I go with everyone that voted "Rapid-Tour".

[Wayne77]

I've owned a Concours CS and a Legend Ti (not ST)
First, I think a Concours may be stiffer because of less butting, not less stiff.
But I really don't think it would be easily felt, given the same size tubes.


That's a good point. As I understand it, more butting requires a larger diameter tube to compensate for the loss of material to retain the same stiffness of an equivalent lesser butted tube. This seems to support your view that a Concours can theoretically be stiffer than the Legend (assuming tube diameters are the same) since the tube walls are thicker on the Concours. Since the fine folks at Serotta can adjust diameters and tube thickness, the only thing that changes between the two bikes is the Legend will be a quarter lb (if that) lighter for a given level of stiffness.

In a blind test, everything else being equal, I highly doubt anyone could tell a difference between the two.

To the original poster: Unless you need the bling factor of a Legend decal on your tt, go for the Concours and save the extra $900 for some nice wheels or buy you s.o. or kid a new bike.

[93legendti]

I've been riding my '93 Legend (non-St, there was no "ST" option back then) a lot lately, after riding my Ottrott, HC and Strong all spring and summer. Whenever I get on it, after only a few pedal strokes, I am amazed how good this bike is, even today. Every ride on my Legend is enjoyable. With all the improvements to the Legend in the last 12 years, it must be one amazing bike. I'd buy the Legend and know that it will last you for years and years.

BTW, when I was looking at the Ottrott and discussing the differences between the top 3 models, the Serotta in-house person told me the Concours was the closest to my '93 Legend. (Yes, I know the tubesets can be tuned just about any way you want.)

[Wayne77]

Well you kind of have to compare apples to apples, no? In the Same level tubeset, lets say of 5 variable sets of Tubes, we were to build a bike using level 3 tubes from both the Legend and Concours Tubesets. Well, using the same level of tubeset, the Legend is a torsionally stiffer Frameset.

My point is that the customer is not forced to stay with a particular tubeset when deciding between the two models. Build a Legend at a given 'level' (using your term) and Serotta can also build a Concours with the same stiffness using possibly a different 'level' of tubing, taking a slight weight penalty. (I assume by 'level' you mean variations in tubing diameter and thickness) All the butting gives you is a decrease in weight for a given tube stiffness. The ti is the same across both models. In this respect, making the comparison while keeping the tubing 'level' a constant would only apply to a non-custom situation.

The Triple butted, externally tapered tubeset is what adds to these properties. That was one of the major points of the Ottrott, the Carbon Tubes allow for it to be 20% stiffer then the main triangle of the Legend, torsionally.

Aren't we talking about ti here? If such a '20%' difference exists, this is a result of an entirely different material and not relevant to this discussion.

Moreso, though you may not think you notice, if you were to have two identical bikes built up, one Legend, one Concours, and it was a size 60+ frameset, chances are you would, in fact notice it. It gets magnified as the frame size gets larger.

I disagree. What mojo properties of the Legend (outside of the triple butted C4ti tubes and a few cosmetic flourishes) would allow me to detect a difference, other than a slight weight variation due to butting. With the Concours all one has to do is spec larger diameter and/or thicker walled tubes to get the same stiffness - the weight penalty would be minimal.

If one wanted to keep weight a constant, then of course the Legend can be spec'd out stiffer for a given weight.

Respectfully,

Wayne

[Argos]

My point is that the customer is not forced to stay with a particular tubeset when deciding between the two models. Build a Legend at a given 'level' (using your term) and Serotta can also build a Concours with the same stiffness using possibly a different 'level' of tubing, taking a slight weight penalty. (I assume by 'level' you mean variations in tubing diameter and thickness) All the butting gives you is a decrease in weight for a given tube stiffness. The ti is the same across both models. In this respect, making the comparison while keeping the tubing 'level' a constant would only apply to a non-custom situation.



Aren't we talking about ti here? If such a '20%' difference exists, this is a result of an entirely different material and not relevant to this discussion.



I disagree. What mojo properties of the Legend (outside of the triple butted C4ti tubes and a few cosmetic flourishes) would allow me to detect a difference, other than a slight weight variation due to butting. With the Concours all one has to do is spec larger diameter and/or thicker walled tubes to get the same stiffness - the weight penalty would be minimal.

If one wanted to keep weight a constant, then of course the Legend can be spec'd out stiffer for a given weight.

Respectfully,

Wayne


The Ottrott comment is relevant, It's called an analogy.

The difference between the Legend and the Concours is less, but it exists. It is not cosmetic only, thats just silly talk. No cookies before nap time for you. But you did agree that the Legend is a better bike. The Concours can be made as stiff, but only up to a point and always with a weight penalty.

Thank you for choosing my side of the argument, no backsies....

[Wayne77]

The Ottrott comment is relevant, It's called an analogy.

The difference between the Legend and the Concours is less, but it exists. It is not cosmetic only, thats just silly talk. No cookies before nap time for you. But you did agree that the Legend is a better bike. The Concours can be made as stiff, but only up to a point and always with a weight penalty.

Thank you for choosing my side of the argument, no backsies....

Let's cut the personal attacks, most of us are adults, trying to have an educated discussion here. Typically in conversations of this nature, one refutes another viewpoint with other material facts or evidence. Until this minimal expectation is met for debate you can dismiss another's viewpoint as "silly talk" until you're blue in the face -it doesn't mean a thing.

Yes, I agree the Legend is a better bike _for those who want the particular additional characteristics offered in the Legend. -A stiffness level unobtainable in the Concours is not one of them.

BTW, an analogy is typically relevant to the topic at hand, which yours is not. Since this debate has degenarated to "no backsies", I'll move on to more intelligent discussions. Its been fun!

[Argos]

Yes, I agree the Legend is a better bike _for those who want the particular additional characteristics offered in the Legend. -A stiffness level unobtainable in the Concours is not one of them.

BTW, an analogy is typically relevant to the topic at hand, which yours is not. Since this debate has degenarated to "no backsies", I'll move on to more intelligent discussions. Its been fun!

1) You have no sense of humor, I was not attacking you, I was adding levity

2) It is completely relevant, we are discussing frame design, torsional stiffness, and how different tubeset technology does this, whether it is multi-material, or same material, engineered differently

3) Using the different tubesets offered, the stiffest legend tubeset is stiffer then the stiffest Concours. The Legend "goes up to 11" achieveing what the Concours cannot.

None of this matters as the guy want a touring bike and should sign up for that last run CSI.

[Bruce Jacobs]

When it comes to bikes I love the passion. I have only owned 3 road bikes, a steel Bianchi Alloro, a steel Colnago Master X Light, and my Legend ST which is my only road bike. I liked the Alloro, loved the Master X Light, but cannot imagine anything better than my Legend ST.

The bike seems to love me. It helps me climb hills and takes me down the other side and lets me roll along on the flats with whatever effort I chose to put out.

My wife feels the same about her Ottrot. Perhaps it is not fair to compare our Colnagos to Ben's high end products but if you only have one bike my preference is for one that loves me.

[ergott]

I think what Wayne is trying to say is that if you aren't going for the "11" you can match the performance with a Concours with a weight penalty and a few extra bucks in the pocket. If the fitter and customer find that the best tubeset from a legend would be say, 7 out of 10, then it might be an 8 out of 10 in the Concours. The bike will be a little heavier. It’s all about the rider preference.

I think the decision should be made based on whether or not you go for the carbon stays. If the decision is for ti stays then either frameset will make a good ride providing you can get the frameset tuned the way you want. Make sure you discuss this with your fitter. If carbon stays are it, then the Legend with the ST stays is a good choice. I really like the way the ST rear handles.

[Kurt]

everyone's take on what is stiff is different - I have a newer 58 legend, 3 degree slope - everything is OS except the stays and it rides like a touring bike to me, which is fine but I would not consider is a racing frame by any means + nothing changes the way a bike feels more than wheels. I use 32 hole velocity wheels and nothing has made a bigger positive impact on the bike - you would not believe the difference in smoothness. they are not effected in cross winds and tires mount up without tools.