OT: Progressive snapshot...anyone use?

[Kingfisher]

Just got off the phone with Progressive ins rep trying to get a discount on our car insurance. She mentioned the snapshot program...device that you plug into the car that monitors your driving...might be eligible for discount based on your driving habits?

Sounds a little weird, big brother, 1984ish. Anyone use this thing, is it worth it?

[AngryScientist]

Just got off the phone with Progressive ins rep trying to get a discount on our car insurance. She mentioned the snapshot program...device that you plug into the car that monitors your driving...might be eligible for discount based on your driving habits?

Sounds a little weird, big brother, 1984ish. Anyone use this thing, is it worth it?

there's no way i want my insurance company monitoring how/when/where i drive.

(did they hear me say that??)

[christian]

Yeah, that's a bridge I'm unwilling to cross.

[AngryScientist]

to add to that:

i dont know what kind of driving you typically do, but my normal commute to work is before 7AM, on the NJ turnpike. normal average speeds are 75 - 85 mph. i do that, i move with traffic, it is very safe. generally a bunch of commuters just going to work at that hour, no one is weaving in and out of lanes or practicing other unsafe behavior, but the average speed is well above the posted speed limit.

i'm sure if the insurance company had that data, even though i am driving safely with traffic every morning, their metrics would show i am a habitual speeder. doesnt matter if i'm at or below the average speed on the highway at that hour, just that i am exceeding the posted limit daily.

consider how many residential streets you drive on where the posted speed limit may be 20 - 25 mph. do you really drive <20 mph on a clear street? that speed feels doggedly slow but it is the legal limit, and most of the time you can safely go 30-35 on these types of streets, and you probably do without thinking about it. how will that look on your watchdog computer?

unlikely to help me in any way, likely to hurt me or be used against me somehow.

just a thought...

[witcombusa]

just like having a Google account!

I can't even imagine anyone actually ASKING to be monitored :confused:

[William]

just like having a Google account!

I can't even imagine anyone actually ASKING to be monitored :confused:


OnStar anyone? :bike:





William

[MattTuck]

Seems like an invitation for adverse selection. The safest drivers are going to be the ones that use Snapshot.

For those against it, what is your problem with it? The goal of an insurance company is to more accurately predict risk. Is it that you think you are riskier than the rates you're paying and Snapshot will make them adjust it? Or you think there is some ulterior motive to gathering the data, like they have a direct line to the NSA?

I'll stand behind my driving record, which involves one minor accident when I was 18. and one speeding ticket when I was 20. I drive defensively (assuming that everyone around me is going to do the most stupid thing I can imagine, and preparing for it.) but I question the Snapshot's ability to understand and interpret situational driving (driving 75-80 when there are no cars on the road vs. driving 65 when you have only 1 or 2 car lengths to the car in front of you).

I'm happy to let my record speak for itself.

[William]

...but I question the Snapshot's ability to understand and interpret situational driving (driving 75-80 when there are no cars on the road vs. driving 65 when you have only 1 or 2 car lengths to the car in front of you).


...Or driving 75 - 80 with the flow of the rest of the traffic around you when going 65 in that situation would actually be potentially dangerous?





William

[MattTuck]

to add to that:

i dont know what kind of driving you typically do, but my normal commute to work is before 7AM, on the NJ turnpike. normal average speeds are 75 - 85 mph. i do that, i move with traffic, it is very safe. generally a bunch of commuters just going to work at that hour, no one is weaving in and out of lanes or practicing other unsafe behavior, but the average speed is well above the posted speed limit.

i'm sure if the insurance company had that data, even though i am driving safely with traffic every morning, their metrics would show i am a habitual speeder. doesnt matter if i'm at or below the average speed on the highway at that hour, just that i am exceeding the posted limit daily.

consider how many residential streets you drive on where the posted speed limit may be 20 - 25 mph. do you really drive <20 mph on a clear street? that speed feels doggedly slow but it is the legal limit, and most of the time you can safely go 30-35 on these types of streets, and you probably do without thinking about it. how will that look on your watchdog computer?

unlikely to help me in any way, likely to hurt me or be used against me somehow.

just a thought...

20-25 mph is typically reserved for school zones around here. Maybe it is more widespread in NJ. Driving at 35 mph through a school zone is not wise.

[christian]

consider how many residential streets you drive on where the posted speed limit may be 20 - 25 mph. do you really drive <20 mph on a clear street? that speed feels doggedly slow but it is the legal limit, and most of the time you can safely go 30-35 on these types of streets, and you probably do without thinking about it. how will that look on your watchdog computer?
As a matter of practice, you really should drive 25 or less on those streets, as you're 10 times more likely to kill a pedestrian at 35 mph than 20 mph, and four times as likely to kill a pedestrian at 35 mph than 25 mph.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/research/pub/Image2.gif

[AngryScientist]

As a matter of practice, you really should drive 25 or less on those streets, as you're 10 times more likely to kill a pedestrian at 35 mph than 20 mph, and four times as likely to kill a pedestrian at 35 mph than 25 mph.


sure, that may be true. of course there is a lot more to it than that though, reaction times, vehicle handling, etc. that is absolutely not the point i was getting at in my post.

my point was that I, and i suspect many others break the letter of the law often, and having that behavior recorded, out of context might not be the best thing.

[christian]

sure, that may be true. of course there is a lot more to it than that though, reaction times, vehicle handling, etc. that is absolutely not the point i was getting at in my post.No, there really isn't. Those are basically rationalizations for dangerous behavior. Speed on the highway all you want, but on roads which are shared with pedestrians (and cyclists), you're better-served by driving the speed limit.

[dave thompson]

Doesn't the Snapshot 'device' also record how hard you accelerate and brake? If you're in the habit of being hard on the brakes and throttle, the Snapshot will cost you money.

[MattTuck]

...Or driving 75 - 80 with the flow of the rest of the traffic around you when going 65 in that situation would actually be potentially dangerous?

William

We all drive based on our preferences, experience and our own assessment of safety.

I'll just say that 'flow of traffic' argument is a false sense of security. Google (or a less big brotherly search engine) "Normal accidents" by Charles Perrow. The two factors that contribute to system accidents are 'interactive complexity' and 'tightly coupled' systems. Driving at 60 mph, you are going about 88 feet per second. Assuming cars are giving each other 4 car lengths, 15 ft per car length, and you're talking 60 ft apart, that still means that in the previous 10 seconds, about 14 cars have to occupy and then clear the space your car enters. At 75mph, you're doing 110 ft/sec, and let's just say you're only giving 45 ft (3 car lengths) because it is really heavy traffic. You're talking about 24 cars having to clear the space your car is entering in the previous 10 seconds. That is a very tightly coupled system. Add in "interactive complexity" of how unpredictable people's actions are (ie. if someone taps their brakes, what does the person behind them do, a bigger tap, a smaller tap, looking at radio and no tap, swerve, etc.)

It all adds up to system that looks like it is behaving quite well, but is at risk of a catastrophic accident.

I was driving in the left lane of the highway, a while back, much like you describe, 75mph, maybe 3 or 4 car lengths (I'm from MA, and thus a masshole driver. any more than that and you might give someone the idea they could cut in front of you ;) )and I see several car lengths up ahead what looks like feathers and my mind makes the guess that a pillow fell off a truck and is now spewing feathers as cars roll over it, 1.5 or 2 seconds later, the thing emerging from under the car in front of me is NOT a pillow, but rather a DEER! not enough time to swerve or stop or do anything, other than run it over like every car in front of me... had blood and cuts on my undercarriage.


Anyway, even when traffic is flowing quickly, I try to give a good amount of distance to the car in front of me, and make the system a little less tightly coupled.

I'm shutting up now.

[AngryScientist]

No, there really isn't. Those are basically rationalizations for dangerous behavior. Speed on the highway all you want, but on roads which are shared with pedestrians (and cyclists), you're better-served by driving the speed limit.

hey dad, please don't turn a thread about car insurance into a driving lecture eh? :rolleyes:

[gdw]

Progressive's "Flo" ads have killed off any chance that they will get my business so there's no way that one of their snooping devices will ever be in my car.

[christian]

For those against it, what is your problem with it?Early state implementation and unclear legalities. In other words, I don't think the discount is worth the risk that it could be discoverable in a civil lawsuit or something. I am extremely safe on the road - drive at or below the speed limit, take obsessive care of the car, drive a Honda Odyssey, use snow tires from November to March, have a good understanding of the mechanics and physics of driving, have a healthy respect for the kinetic energy involved in a car accident from a couple of high-speed accidents I've experienced in race car.

I just don't think it makes sense to submit to the program at this time. No issue with it being offered.

[AngryScientist]

drive a Honda Odyssey...

not trying to poke an argument by any means, but some of the most UNSAFE drivers i've seen are honda odyssey drivers. as a matter of fact, i was hit by one of them two weeks ago, while on foot.

[zap]

there's no way i want my insurance company monitoring how/when/where i drive.

(did they hear me say that??)

Just wait.

Here in Montgomery County Maryland (and other D.C burbs) police record vehicle movement. Patrol cars with camera's mounted record 1,000's (each patrol car) of license plates per hour. Washington Post reported that police found a missing, cheating spouse in NoVa last year using this database.

[cody.wms]

not trying to poke an argument by any means, but some of the most UNSAFE drivers i've seen are honda odyssey drivers. as a matter of fact, i was hit by one of them two weeks ago, while on foot.

The most dangerous car seems like a regional thing, nothing more. In TN, it was the tan Tahoe. Where I'm at now, it's the Lexus RX. I don't think you can really say the car makes the ****ty driver.

But, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Christian is a decent driver and understands the risk of this stuff more than any of us.

[slowgoing]

Just wait.

Here in Montgomery County Maryland (and other D.C burbs) police record vehicle movement. Patrol cars with camera's mounted record 1,000's (each patrol car) of license plates per hour. Washington Post reported that police found a missing, cheating spouse in NoVa last year using this database.

Do they record who goes where into an ever growing database (which seems a little big brotherish and expensive to me), or do they have a database of cars/drivers they are looking for (outstanding warrants, etc) and compare the scanned plates to that database, with the scanned plate information discarded if there is no hit?

[slowgoing]

Next thing you know, health insurers will offer you an incentive to give them a swab of your DNA.

[1centaur]

If I were to guess, I'd say that most of the risk that one insures against is based on the way others drive rather than the way you drive, especially if you are not a teenage male or a drunk driver. Therefore the discount available for taking the tracking device will be nowhere close to the relative driving safety offered by a safe driver vs. a dangerous driver. For this mispriced discount you offer up a stream of data that can be used against you in perpetuity by lawyers trained to create perceptions and actuaries trained to misprice risk. Your ability to speed, accelerate hard and brake late may be far better than another's due to your age/capacities and equipment, but data will not make that distinction. You might even start to drive based on how the data might appear rather than your natural judgment. For society, that might be good, but for your mental comfort, it's not. Presumably an insurance company offers this for its benefit rather than yours (that mispricing thing again). And BTW, I wonder if a court order could force the insurer to release the data to others, a la the privacy policies so many of us ignore. Fit parent? Let's look at the driving habits - ooh, little Timmy would be endangered by this guy, full custody to the mother. Just imagining, but there's a lot to consider in this decision beyond the few bucks you'll save.

[William]

We all drive based on our preferences, experience and our own assessment of safety.

I'll just say that 'flow of traffic' argument is a false sense of security. Google (or a less big brotherly search engine) "Normal accidents" by Charles Perrow. The two factors that contribute to system accidents are 'interactive complexity' and 'tightly coupled' systems. Driving at 60 mph, you are going about 88 feet per second. Assuming cars are giving each other 4 car lengths, 15 ft per car length, and you're talking 60 ft apart, that still means that in the previous 10 seconds, about 14 cars have to occupy and then clear the space your car enters. At 75mph, you're doing 110 ft/sec, and let's just say you're only giving 45 ft (3 car lengths) because it is really heavy traffic. You're talking about 24 cars having to clear the space your car is entering in the previous 10 seconds. That is a very tightly coupled system. Add in "interactive complexity" of how unpredictable people's actions are (ie. if someone taps their brakes, what does the person behind them do, a bigger tap, a smaller tap, looking at radio and no tap, swerve, etc.)

It all adds up to system that looks like it is behaving quite well, but is at risk of a catastrophic accident.

I was driving in the left lane of the highway, a while back, much like you describe, 75mph, maybe 3 or 4 car lengths (I'm from MA, and thus a masshole driver. any more than that and you might give someone the idea they could cut in front of you ;) )and I see several car lengths up ahead what looks like feathers and my mind makes the guess that a pillow fell off a truck and is now spewing feathers as cars roll over it, 1.5 or 2 seconds later, the thing emerging from under the car in front of me is NOT a pillow, but rather a DEER! not enough time to swerve or stop or do anything, other than run it over like every car in front of me... had blood and cuts on my undercarriage.


Anyway, even when traffic is flowing quickly, I try to give a good amount of distance to the car in front of me, and make the system a little less tightly coupled.

I'm shutting up now.

I don't disagree with what you posted above, my point was apples to safe driving habit apples: a smooth flow of traffic traveling at X speed is generally safer than a flow of traffic with most cars traveling X and a few traveling at a slower Y. The slower cars will cause bottlenecks with the faster cars trying to get around them (with more potential to cause unpredictable behavior).

Even on a race track with all the cars traveling at 180mph there will be less potential for an accident then having most of the cars doing 180 and a few doing 140.

I don't know about Mass, but here in good old Rhody I always try to keep a safe distance between me and the car in front of me on the hi-way. The problem is that everyone and their mother will try to jump into that buffer zone in their rush to get somewhere and that pretty soon leaves you going backwards (to slightly exaggerate :) ).




William

[Ken Robb]

Before you get into too technical a discussion about safe driving and car handling with our cycling Christian Google "Christian Edstrom" and think it over. :)

[zap]

Do they record who goes where into an ever growing database (which seems a little big brotherish and expensive to me), or do they have a database of cars/drivers they are looking for (outstanding warrants, etc) and compare the scanned plates to that database, with the scanned plate information discarded if there is no hit?

Yes, who goes where and when. Ever growing database of all recorded plates. Plates do get checked quickly for those with outstanding tickets, warrants, etc.

Some PD have a policy to dispose of data after 2 years however, per a local paper the other week, many PD do not have a disposal policy yet.

I understand most of the funding comes from the federal government.

http://www.gazette.net/article/20120215/NEWS/702159557&template=gazette

[AngryScientist]

Before you get into too technical a discussion about safe driving and car handling with our cycling Christian Google "Christian Edstrom" and think it over. :)

exactly - you think this guy is a safe driver! :D

http://www.christianedstrom.com/newspic.july222006.jpg

[William]

exactly - you think this guy is a safe driver! :D

http://www.christianedstrom.com/newspic.july222006.jpg

Speeding and catching air with people right on the side of the road???? :no:




;) :D

William

[slowgoing]

Yes, who goes where and when. Ever growing database of all recorded plates. Plates do get checked quickly for those with outstanding tickets, warrants, etc.

Some PD have a policy to dispose of data after 2 years however, per a local paper the other week, many PD do not have a disposal policy yet.

I understand most of the funding comes from the federal government.

Time to take the Metro! Although they're probably recording you there too.

Don't be surprised if personal injury lawyers start asking whether you were using a snapshot device in your car at the time of an accident. Not that it will always hurt you. For example, maybe it will show you were stopped at the time someone ran into you.

[zap]

Do like Steve Jobs did-drive around without a plate.

[witcombusa]

Time to take the Metro! Although they're probably recording you there too.

Remind me the put the "kiss my ass" plate holder back on my rear plate!

[Idris Icabod]

Didn't read any of the posts but I did it pretty much as soon as it launched. I was already getting a significant discount for inputing my odometer every few months but my wife and I did it, had it for 6 months I think. The extra savings were dramatic, I think an extra 23% and 27%. We didn't drive during the high risk times, which I think is midnight-4 AM, not sure who is toodling around at that time!

It seemed that people are worried about big brother watching you. All I have to say on the subject is come have a look, I'm dull as heck so someone had better be paid big bucks to monitor me.

Okay, I read through some posts and the speed you're travelling isn't compared to speed zone or trying to track if you are a law abiding driver. The only thing they really monitor (at least when I did it) is miles driven, time driven and heavy braking events (a decrease of so many miles per second). Like I said above our savings were considerable, they even refunded a chunk back to my CC as soon as the first estimate of savings were calculated and then every month they refunded my CC, it seemed like they were going to pay me back my complete premium at one point.

Currently we have a Honda Odyssey minivan (2011) and a Civic (2010) and pay a little under $300 per 6 months for both, we were paying around $800 for both (or at least similar cars) with our previous insurer.

[witcombusa]

Didn't read any of the posts but I did it pretty much as soon as it launched. I was already getting a significant discount for inputing my odometer every few months but my wife and I did it, had it for 6 months I think. The extra savings were dramatic, I think an extra 23% and 27%. We didn't drive during the high risk times, which I think is midnight-4 AM, not sure who is toodling around at that time!

It seemed that people are worried about big brother watching you. All I have to say on the subject is come have a look, I'm dull as heck so someone had better be paid big bucks to monitor me.

Okay, I read through some posts and the speed you're travelling isn't compared to speed zone or trying to track if you are a law abiding driver. The only thing they really monitor (at least when I did it) is miles driven, time driven and heavy braking events (a decrease of so many miles per second). Like I said above our savings were considerable, they even refunded a chunk back to my CC as soon as the first estimate of savings were calculated and then every month they refunded my CC, it seemed like they were going to pay me back my complete premium at one point.

Currently we have a Honda Odyssey minivan (2011) and a Civic (2010) and pay a little under $300 per 6 months for both, we were paying around $800 for both (or at least similar cars) with our previous insurer.


I'll pay the extra to keep them away....
keep "giving up" your personal space in this life, see where we wind up!

[Louis]

I had wondered what the "Snapshot Discount" was and had heard lots of ads for it on the radio. This is the first time it's been explained to me. Orwellian. Maybe they'll go for brain implants next.

You could cut my car insurance premiums to 10% of what they are today and I would still not consent to using that thing.

To quote my frothing-at-the-mouth right-wing buddies, "Freedom is not Free!!!"

[Idris Icabod]

I'll pay the extra to keep them away....
keep "giving up" your personal space in this life, see where we wind up!

Have a great day!

[benb]

If they are tracking "smoothness" and "not driving after midnight" and such maybe I should sign up for this..

I got 90K out of the front brakes on my car, pretty much never go out from midnight-4AM etc..

I do consistently go 70-75 in a 55 every single day during my commute (unless I bike) though, and I wouldn't want to be penalized for that. I drive on a stupid 3-5 lanes per side superhighway that has not had the speed limit changed since it was widened..

Count me as one of those people who might like to drive in a "sporting" fashion but drives like a granny on most surface streets.. those are the places you are most likely to hit a pedestrian or cyclist, those are the places to go slow. A lot of time these days I don't even do the speed limit.. you might be seeing me do 35 in a 40 or 25 in a 30 if I'm getting nervous about a pedestrian appearing suddenly. (And heck I'm only 34) Our highway speed limits are way too low and too many of our surface street speed limits in my area are too high as the speed limits don't seem to go down as development & congestion go up over time.

[christian]

I don't think racing cars necessarily makes you a safer driver. What made me a safer driver was the confluence of two things:

Crashing race cars made me realize that when you shed ~1.6 million joules of energy in a few feet, it's a very very violent action and frankly, you might not always survive it.
I had kids.


That, and understanding that the Ek increases with the square of the velocity made me think that scrubbing off a few mph is nearly always the right course of action.

[rice rocket]

Why not just plug it in during rush hour traffic and unplug it when you need to get somewhere quickly? :)

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . doesn't care about how you drive or where you go. They care about making money.

I think the Angry Science Man is dead right . . . the box will not record context and I would wager the company's prime goal is to weed out drivers who seem to drive unsafely--and are this more likely to have wrecks, file claims, and subtract from the company's profit line. THAT's what they care about--$$$$$$$$$$.

I'd bet money that only the fact that you WERE driving for extended periods in excess of the posted speed limit will be recorded. and what's the flip side of this little "discount?" If their box does record that you are a "habitual speeder"--even if it's because to drive the speed limit would get you flattened on the Garden State Parkway--will they then turn around and INCREASE your rates? Or cancel you unexpectedly?

Go ahead. Enroll. Have fun. Not me, though.

BBD

[dave thompson]

Progressive's official stance on the Snapshot data gathering:

What information does the Snapshot device collect?
The Snapshot device collects:

*Time of day and vehicle speed, which helps determine how many miles you drive and how often you make sudden stops.
*When the device is connected and disconnected from the vehicle.
*Vehicle Identification Number (VIN).

The Snapshot device doesn't contain GPS technology or track vehicle location. It also doesn't track whether you're exceeding the speed limit.

[gdw]

The next step is to incorporate GIS technology into the device like some of the insurance companies in Europe. They'll be able to monitor your driving habits and track your movements as you go about your daily routine. The money you save will be peanuts compared to the money made from selling that info to the mass marketing companies. Forget big brother, your mail box will be overflowing with junk mail. :banana:

[Idris Icabod]

. . . doesn't care about how you drive or where you go. They care about making money.

I think the Angry Science Man is dead right . . . the box will not record context and I would wager the company's prime goal is to weed out drivers who seem to drive unsafely--and are this more likely to have wrecks, file claims, and subtract from the company's profit line. THAT's what they care about--$$$$$$$$$$.

I'd bet money that only the fact that you WERE driving for extended periods in excess of the posted speed limit will be recorded. and what's the flip side of this little "discount?" If their box does record that you are a "habitual speeder"--even if it's because to drive the speed limit would get you flattened on the Garden State Parkway--will they then turn around and INCREASE your rates? Or cancel you unexpectedly?

Go ahead. Enroll. Have fun. Not me, though.

BBD

I remember when I did it that the rate can not go up and you can not be cancelled because of your driving habits. But then I'm a fairly trusting kind of person, and often forget that most companies are evil.

[zap]

Progressive's official stance on the Snapshot data gathering:

What information does the Snapshot device collect?
The Snapshot device collects:

*Time of day and vehicle speed, which helps determine how many miles you drive and how often you make sudden stops.
*When the device is connected and disconnected from the vehicle.
*Vehicle Identification Number (VIN).

The Snapshot device doesn't contain GPS technology or track vehicle location. It also doesn't track whether you're exceeding the speed limit.

I bet 130mph will raise some eyebrows.

[witcombusa]

sheep rarely mind being watched

[slowgoing]

I remember when I did it that the rate can not go up and you can not be cancelled because of your driving habits.

Is that only a promise during your initial contract period? What happens when someone who speeds at night tries to renew?

[William]

sheep rarely mind being watched


http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/tmbs/5056238fa5/fullsize_11.jpg


;) :D


William

[Idris Icabod]

sheep rarely mind being watched

Thanks again!

[gdw]

"'sheep rarely mind being watched"

Privacy is overated, sheeple are more interested in saving a few bucks.

[zmudshark]

Alternative is just to get old (like me), and ride a bike more than you drive (like me). Your rates will drop.

I have a Mazda MX 5 that I've put 5k on since I bought it. That was 5 years ago. I ride 5k/year.

I'm over 60.

Insurance is cheap.

[pedlpwrd]

I always wished this "snapshot" device would be able to take pictures of the douchebags driving around me. So I would have a backup to trying to explain why I had to weave or excelerate so much. :bike:

[MattTuck]

I bet 130mph will raise some eyebrows.

You took your car to Germany for some autobahn driving.... :rolleyes:

[Birddog]

I didn't read all the responses, but wanted you to know that my son age 29 did it and got a nice discount. IIRC, they do not raise rates based on the device, only lower them if you qualify.

[dekindy]

It is not a GPS.

"Data We Collect
The Snapshot device records vehicle speed and time of day, and when the device is connected and disconnected from the vehicle. It also records the Vehicle Identification Number upon installation. Other information, such as miles driven and rates of acceleration and braking, is derived from the speed and time information recorded by the device.

Data We Don't Collect
Snapshot focuses on how safely, how often, how far, and when you drive, NOT where you drive. The Snapshot device does not contain GPS technology and does not track vehicle location or whether you’re exceeding the speed limit. We also don’t know who is driving the car in which the device is installed."

[Ahneida Ride]

The next step is to incorporate GIS technology into the device like some of the insurance companies in Europe. They'll be able to monitor your driving habits and track your movements as you go about your daily routine. The money you save will be peanuts compared to the money made from selling that info to the mass marketing companies. Forget big brother, your mail box will be overflowing with junk mail. :banana:

It's a coming .... and it is always sold as for your protection !

[Ti Designs]

I would sign up for the snapshot program, but I honestly doubt if they could lower my rates. Been driving for 30 years, zero tickets of any kind and zero accidents. I put 3 times as much mileage on my bike as I do on my car - not that the insurance company need to know or even cares. I also own a race car - they don't need to know that either...

As for race drivers being safer, that depends on how they drive which is a function of their personality. Many of them are really fast on the track, but don't feel the need to push the limits in the least on the street. I also know a number of race drivers who have had their license revoked. I'd like to think the race drivers who keep it under the speed limit (or drive with the flow of traffic) are some of the safest drivers out there. They have the skills and reaction times to avoid the accidents that other drivers would simply plow into, they tend to know their cars and how they will react far better, and they tend to concentrate on their driving more.

I'm an autocross driver, I can shave label off a traffic cone in a four wheel drift - it's what I practice. Both my race car and my daily driver are Honda CRX's so I have a slight handling advantage on the road. One day a couple of years ago on a steep downhill ending in an ugly 6 way intersection a small boy ran out into the road in front of me. Rapidly shifting lanes would have spun the car and hit the kid, then put me directly into oncoming traffic. Cutting to the left at threshold braking, then cutting back hard to the right got the car around the kid and then spun it around him without touching him. I wound up at the bottom of the hill, in my lane, facing the wrong way, stalled. Had I never practiced rotating the car around cones, or if I was your average driver, I would have hit the kid.

There are no down sides to having skills.

[William]

There are no down sides to having skills.


Quote of the day!




William