OT: New Orleans Saints bounty program

[rwsaunders]

Hard to believe that the former assistant coach acknowledged that the program existed.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/02/sport/football/saints-bounty-program/index.html?iref=obnetwork

[Rada]

Yep. The team is going to take a big hit. Loss of multiple picks, suspensions, and big time fines.

[Louis]

I think I read today on the NYT web site that this is considered widespread in the NFL. (Although I would guess different teams probably take it to different lengths.)

If this is common, then the NFL needs to figure out a way to distinguish between playing with intent to harm and accidental injury. Otherwise, in an inherently violent sport, where fans and media alike revel in "great hits" and the like, I don't see how you can stop it. If players aren't penalized for it, and are in fact rewarded, there's no reason to stop.

This should be interesting in St Louis because the NO defensive coordinator has moved to the Rams.

[FlashUNC]

I find the finger wagging over this a little ridiculous.

[Louis]

I find the finger wagging over this a little ridiculous.

I agree. Just look at the types of replays that get shown time and again on SportsCenter. And not just shown, but glorified.

[Fixed]

i love the south
cheers

[rugbysecondrow]

I find the finger wagging over this a little ridiculous.

Seriously. If you played a contact sport and didn't want to knock the other guys dick in the dirt, then I am at a loss. That doesn't mean cheating or cheap plays, but if you light some guy up, that is part of the game.

In physical sports, hit or be hit, deliver the blow or be the recipient of the blow, hurt or be hurt. No time to be a candy arse.

I would be lying if great nicknames, beers, girls and other awards were given to those guys to delivered big time blows.

[saab2000]

Seriously. If you played a contact sport and didn't want to knock the other guys dick in the dirt, then I am at a loss. That doesn't mean cheating or cheap plays, but if you light some guy up, that is part of the game.

In physical sports, hit or be hit, deliver the blow or be the recipient of the blow, hurt or be hurt. No time to be a candy arse.

I would be lying if great nicknames, beers, girls and other awards were given to those guys to delivered big time blows.

Play hard. Yes. Play dirty and intentionally hurt other players? That's BS and everyone knows it. Same as cheap hooks and riding someone into the curb on purpose (to cause a crash on purpose) in bike racing. May as well be pro wrestling or roller derby.

[rugbysecondrow]

Play hard. Yes. Play dirty and intentionally hurt other players? That's BS and everyone knows it. Same as cheap hooks and riding someone into the curb on purpose (to cause a crash on purpose) in bike racing. May as well be pro wrestling or roller derby.

Sorry, I didn't read anything about cheap shots, did you? I didn't read anything about playing dirty, did you? Intentionally hurt players...of course and that is not wrong.

If you play defense, you want to take the quarterback out, you want him out of the game. Period. You want their starting RB out of the game. Same with their #1 WR. Hit them hard and often. Get them out and you have a greater shot at winning.

There is a reason the QB has blockers, the RB has a line. Protection from those trying to cause bodily harm.

I will concede it is poor taste to have a formal program established where there are payouts, especially since it could be construed as gambling or impacted the game for winnings. I don't disagree with the spirit though. To play a physical sport like that, you have to want to inflict damage at times. If you lack that then you could get seriously hurt. You better have that drive to hurt because somebody has that drive to hurt you. Not even a comparison in cycling.

[FlashUNC]

Lawrence Taylor outlined the defensive mindset pretty well in The Blind Side.

He was there to "knock the quarterback's dick in the dirt" until either the guy couldn't get up, or was so rattled he played like crap.

He even mentions in the book how his reaction to Joe Theismann's injury wasn't out of compassion or sympathy. He was a claustrophic and got caught at the bottom of the pile on that hit, and ended up having a panic attack. He didn't care about Theismann's injury.

The NFL's platitude's about player safety are a smoke screen, imo, from the mounting evidence that simply playing the sport will cause serious brain injury.
The most shocking data is the fact its not even the big hits are the concern. The casual contact from every play is what mounts to chronic brain injury.

So if players want to play in that environment, I'm of the opinion so be it. Have at it.

[saab2000]

Sorry, I didn't read anything about cheap shots, did you? I didn't read anything about playing dirty, did you? Intentionally hurt players...of course and that is not wrong.

If you play defense, you want to take the quarterback out, you want him out of the game. Period. You want their starting RB out of the game. Same with their #1 WR. Hit them hard and often. Get them out and you have a greater shot at winning.

There is a reason the QB has blockers, the RB has a line. Protection from those trying to cause bodily harm.

I will concede it is poor taste to have a formal program established where there are payouts, especially since it could be construed as gambling or impacted the game for winnings. I don't disagree with the spirit though. To play a physical sport like that, you have to want to inflict damage at times. If you lack that then you could get seriously hurt.

The bounty thing is all about knocking players out of games. Or longer. They don't pay $10000+ cash bonuses just because.

[rwsaunders]

[QUOTE=rugbysecondrow]Sorry, I didn't read anything about cheap shots, did you? I didn't read anything about playing dirty, did you? Intentionally hurt players...of course and that is not wrong.

"The payments here are particularly troubling because they involved not just payments for 'performance,' but also for injuring opposing players," NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell said in a statement.

I sort of read that as playing dirty.

[rugbysecondrow]

The bounty thing is all about knocking players out of games. Or longer. They don't pay $10000+ cash bonuses just because.

What is wrong with knocking a player out of a game? So long as you do it within the confines of the rules, so be it. It is not touch football, flag Rugby. The goal is to win by scoring, you score by physically imposing your will on another group of men. That often involves pain, injury and removal from the game. Take out the teams best player or key player and you have a better shot at imposing your will, scoring and winning.

What it comes down to is physical domination.

[rugbysecondrow]

[QUOTE=rugbysecondrow]Sorry, I didn't read anything about cheap shots, did you? I didn't read anything about playing dirty, did you? Intentionally hurt players...of course and that is not wrong.

"The payments here are particularly troubling because they involved not just payments for 'performance,' but also for injuring opposing players," NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell said in a statement.

I sort of read that as playing dirty.


Don't take your eye off the behavior. What did the player actually do? Did he break the rules? Did he play within the confines of the game?

I understand that payouts are against league rules, so that is wrong. I am not questioning that, but calling the on the field behavior cheap with no examples, proof or anything else is silly. Until this all came out, did anybody mention the NO Saints as being a cheap team? Playing dirty?

Keep your eye on the actual behavior.

[saab2000]

What is wrong with knocking a player out of a game? So long as you do it within the confines of the rules, so be it. It is not touch football, flag Rugby. The goal is to win by scoring, you score by physically imposing your will on another group of men. That often involves pain, injury and removal from the game. Take out the teams best player or key player and you have a better shot at imposing your will, scoring and winning.

What it comes down to is physical domination.

Paying players under the table to intentionally injure the competition is against the rules and against any sense of fair play I've ever heard of.

[rwsaunders]

They didn't play within the confines of the game if they offered money or took money to hurt other players, and they have acknowledged that it was wrong. It will be interesting to hear the comments from the player's union. I guess if Brett Favre thinks it's ok then I do too. :cool:

At 5:30 p.m. ET on Friday, Williams issued an apology: "I want to express my sincere regret and apology to the NFL, Mr. Benson, and the New Orleans Saints fans for my participation in the 'pay for performance' program while I was with the Saints," Williams said. "It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it. Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role. I am truly sorry. I have learned a hard lesson and I guarantee that I will never participate in or allow this kind of activity to happen again."

[rugbysecondrow]

Paying players under the table to intentionally injure the competition is against the rules and against any sense of fair play I've ever heard of.


Now you are shifting your point though. Yes, paying them is wrong and it is against league rules, so you are right.

To say that intentionally trying to hurt somebody is wrong, well that is just a pollyanna view.

When I played rugby, I would hit somebody as hard as I could, I wanted them to A) Hurt B) drop the ball C) remember me. I would never hit for the sake of hitting, sometimes a big hit is actually worse for the team as you want to hold them up or make another move, so not gratuitous.

If I went into a game with a soft mentality, then I would be victimized and that was not going to happen.

[saab2000]

Where was I inconsistent?

[Fixed]

and if you said i going to knock his head off and you killed him within the rules fine ?
cheers

[rugbysecondrow]

Where was I inconsistent?

You are shifting your focus my man. If you want to say intentionally hurting people is wrong, then so be it. I disagree. You abandon that comment to then focus on the payment part, which I agree is against the rules.

Is it wrong, I don't know. Big hitters sell more jerseys, likely get bigger contracts, win awards (James Harrison), and get notoriety and play on ESPN and other publications. Whether you agree with a team payment system or not, other folks are paying them, the NFL is paying them and these players profit.

So sure, it is probably more dumb than it is wrong to offer bounty like the Saints did, but lets not look at this in a vacuum. The system as a whole rewards big hitters, dominant play and physical players.

Maybe I am wrong, but I always wanted to hurt somebody when I tackled them. Just bringing them down wasn't enough, I want push my shoulder through their body and out the other side. If i tried to half hit, then I would get run over. Hit hard, hit through them every time. When I was running with the ball, I wanted to run over somebody, hit them harder than me. I wanted to hurt them so they would flinch next time they tried to tackle me. Help, there was quite a bit of intent to harm and hurt there.




and if you said i going to knock his head off and you killed him within the rules fine ?
cheers

First, respect for the player is what makes you take him seriously. If you didn't respect them, then would you even consider them worthy of playing? I wouldn't. I respect all opponents unless they cheat.

If they died, that would be aweful, but who is to blame? No offense, but there is not sparring in football, rugby or hockey. You better play all out because the other guys are. YOU WILL BE HURT IF YOU DON"T. Of course it would not be fine, but when people get into the ring, walk onto the field, there are risks, right?

[jr59]

NO COMMENT!

I live here in New Orleans.

It's a very sad day for all Saints fans! :(

[Climb01742]

To say that intentionally trying to hurt somebody is wrong, well that is just a pollyanna view.

for me it's the civilized view. i played football, just high school, and yes, there were a few instances where, out of anger, i did try to hurt someone. luckily, i never did. i regret those moments to this day. but 99% of the plays i simply wanted to play hard. the key for me is intent. you can absolutely play hard and clean and not try to hurt someone.

injuries happen in football. i broke eight out of ten fingers and had bruised ribs so bad i couldn't breathe right for 6 months. so i know what kind of game it is.

for me, intentionally harming another player has no place in the game. and you can play damn hard and hold that belief.

[rugbysecondrow]

for me it's the civilized view. i played football, just high school, and yes, there were a few instances where, out of anger, i did try to hurt someone. luckily, i never did. i regret those moments to this day. but 99% of the plays i simply wanted to play hard. the key for me is intent. you can absolutely play hard and clean and not try to hurt someone.

injuries happen in football. i broke eight out of ten fingers and had bruised ribs so bad i couldn't breathe right for 6 months. so i know what kind of game it is.

for me, intentionally harming another player has no place in the game. and you can play damn hard and hold that belief.

When you hit somebody hard, is that not what you are trying to do? Do you hit them just enough to stop them or is there a little extra? For me, playing hard meant that I had to have a certain mentality. Maybe I just don't understand the distinction. If I hit somebody hard and their ribs break, I won't feel bad. I am tackling and doing so with a pain causing mentality. I am not talking poking guys in the eye, stomping on their balls, ripping their ear, twisting the guys neck, but playing hard within the confines of the game.

When you agree to play the game, you put yourself in a position to hurt and be hurt.

I will add though that my sport was different than football in that football had finite plays with a stoppage after each play which are tailor made for big plays. In rugby, a huge hit could put you out of position for the next immediate play as there is not a clock stoppage...non stop action. Playing smart and winning was always number one, hitting and playing hard is part of that.

[Jeff N.]

They're killin' me. The Raiders have been cheap shot'n guys forever! They do it for FREE!

[FlashUNC]

http://deadspin.com/5598492/jack-tatum-killed-darryl-stingley-and-we-made-him-do-it

[verticaldoug]

If the league really cared about the players, they could roll back to 14 game regular season instead of the current 16. And don't forget, they still want to expand to 18 games. The current 'concern' for players is just a smoke screen for to reduce the pending lawsuits from retirees. When he was head of the NFLPA, Gene Upshaw really alienated many former players.

The Saints pool is just a device where the players were trying to get each other 'up' for another game of hard hitting in a long season where the urge to slack off in the name of self preservation would be high.

[likebikes]

ugh, man this is real bad.

[rugbysecondrow]

If the league really cared about the players, they could roll back to 14 game regular season instead of the current 16. And don't forget, they still want to expand to 18 games. The current 'concern' for players is just a smoke screen for to reduce the pending lawsuits from retirees. When he was head of the NFLPA, Gene Upshaw really alienated many former players.

The Saints pool is just a device where the players were trying to get each other 'up' for another game of hard hitting in a long season where the urge to slack off in the name of self preservation would be high.


^^^^^^^^^^

Gets it.

I would add that I think the more pads, the more protection the less the players can feel, the more they can use themselves as a weapon. They feel invincible, until they aren't

[don'TreadOnMe]

Nothing new here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounty_Bowl

Hey, they say pro cyclists dope & cheat. Believe that?

Lots of big money on the line, and I'll not be fooled.

[bikinchris]

[QUOTE=rwsaunders]
Until this all came out, did anybody mention the NO Saints as being a cheap team? Playing dirty?

Keep your eye on the actual behavior.

Yes, some teams were saying the Saints played dirty. I am a Saints fan and am saddened by this. We were getting ready for a party in New Orleans when the SuperBowl comes to the Big Easy in the middle of Mardi Gras. Now they will be lucky to have a good season.

Frankly, I bet every team talks like this, but probably only in secret, and with no formal announcement and no paperwork or money given. I still wonder about that playoff game between the Saints and the 49ers, where there was a knockout hit by San Fransico. They knocked out the Saints running back cold and he dropped the ball.
If the NFL is serious about player safety, NO PLAYER should ever take a real hard hit in the head. No helmet to helmet, no shoulder to helmet ever. IMO it would require better tackling and more skill on the players part. It would also save lives.
Also, $15,000 fines are a joke. You hit illegally, YOU ARE THROWN OUT OF THE GAME and you miss games including PLAYOFF games. If you are thrown out of a game, you must miss a quarter of the next playoff game. One quarter for one ejection. Now that will get attention.

[rugbysecondrow]

[QUOTE=rugbysecondrow]

Yes, some teams were saying the Saints played dirty. I am a Saints fan and am saddened by this. We were getting ready for a party in New Orleans when the SuperBowl comes to the Big Easy in the middle of Mardi Gras. Now they will be lucky to have a good season.

Frnkly, I bet every team talks like this, but probably only in secret. I stil wonder about that knockout hit by San Fransicc, where they knowcked out the Saints running back cold and he dropped the ball.
If the NFL is serious about player safety, NO PLAYER shoudl ever take a hit in the head. No helmet to helmet, no shoulder to helmet ever. IMO it would require better tackling and more skill on the players part. It would also save lives.
Also, $15,000 fines are a joke. You hit illegally, YOU ARE THROWN OUT OF THE GAME and you miss games including PLAYOFF games. If you are thrown out of a game, you must miss a quarter of the next playoff game. One quarter for one ejection. Now that will get attention.

As a football fan, but not a Saints fan, I never heard of them being cheap or dirty.

I get what you are saying, but I just don't know if that is reasonable. Hitting in the head is more often than not incidental. You zig when the other guy zags and BOOM, head on head. Two guys both lower their heads at the same time and BAM, contact. Same with shoulder or knee on head contact, it just happens. With such speed, power and movement, there is going to be contact like that. Folks will get head and neck injuries.

Why can't we just understand that it is a violent sport with powerful contact. Boxing and MMA are allowed to be what they are, why not football?

[Viper]

NO COMMENT!

I live here in New Orleans.

It's a very sad day for all Saints fans! :(

+1

Anyone who quotes or leans on Lawrence Taylor's quotations must remember that Taylor is a crack head. Literally. Lifelong drug addict. He's a crack head and rapist who is in/out of jail, involved in the rape of a 16 year old. LT's opinion on sport is failed, fouled and full of lies. The man played football high on cocaine, snorting during half time.

Anyone who endorses the Saints' injure-for-cash-program, I'd ask em' to lace-up and play the game or be involved in a full-contact sport. I believe they'd feel the Saint's coaching staff is clearly without moral application within sport; western cowboy showdowns had rules, knights in battle as well as Jedis.

Grace Kelly (from my grandparent's hometown in Ireland) was more than enough to look at, as Gary Cooper set the stage in High Noon for this timeless western, a classic revelover he handed to many more which followed, most recently by Tombstone (Cowboys and Aliens was pretty good and heck, combining aliens with cowboys was sheer brilliance). Honor in combat, sport and life, today in 1080i HDTV/3-D, is the same as it was in black/white, or in the time long before electricity.

"My pride broke it. My rage broke it! This excellent knight, who fought with fairness and grace, was meant to win. I used Excalibur to change that verdict. I've lost, for all time, the ancient sword of my fathers, whose power was meant to unite all men... not to serve the vanity of a single man. I am... nothing", said Arthur to Merlin, after he nearly killed Lancelot.

Merlin, responding to Arthur's questions of Lancelot's recovery from his rage, his own future, full of marriage, children and a powerful kingdom reminded Arthur, "But a King should be afraid, Arthur, always... of the enemy. Waiting, everywhere. In the corridors of his castle, on the deer-paths of his forests, or in a more tangled forest... in here [taps his head with his finger]."

I've seen Excalibur, High Noon, Tombstone and Cowboys and Aliens. The Saints' bounty program, it's lust and greed of heart, foolish idea in mind was in all of these movies and in the end, was defeated by others, overcome through self-knowledge or destroyed itself. People cheat in life, drunk and high, selfish with their indulgences, as do athletes on the field and for the cheater, their victory is always short-lived with a destiny to encounter, as Doc Holliday summarized, "A reckoning."

South Mayo:

http://www.mayo.irishroots.net/

Notice the spikes coming out of both sets of hubs for which the protagonist overcomes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpoKdPNM10M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b08DChU5qsg

And I am not the first to see the parallel, which I noticed in 1978 (though I was fixated on Olivia Newton John in leather):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj8wvG5LMLc&feature=related

[Earl Gray]

for me it's the civilized view. i played football, just high school, and yes, there were a few instances where, out of anger, i did try to hurt someone. luckily, i never did. i regret those moments to this day. but 99% of the plays i simply wanted to play hard. the key for me is intent. you can absolutely play hard and clean and not try to hurt someone.

injuries happen in football. i broke eight out of ten fingers and had bruised ribs so bad i couldn't breathe right for 6 months. so i know what kind of game it is.

for me, intentionally harming another player has no place in the game. and you can play damn hard and hold that belief.
This is why you or I could never be pro atheletes. Pro football players have to play like Rugby suggest or they would never make it.

Its about malice. They play to hurt but with no malice. Most pro atheletes compete that way.

Rugbydude, your pissin in the wind. They wont get there.

[pdmtong]

This is why you or I could never be pro atheletes. Pro football players have to play like Rugby suggest or they would never make it.

Its about malice. They play to hurt but with no malice. Most pro atheletes compete that way.

Rugbydude, your pissin in the wind. They wont get there.

I dont play but I get rugby's point. look, peeps, he isnt saying to break their bones or leave them with life threatening injuries...he's saying it's a physical game, and he is telling the other guy who is the alpha dawg. once you step on the field, thats the way it is.

[Louis]

Boxing and MMA are allowed to be what they are, why not football?

Ummm, because in boxing the whole point of the sport is to knock the other guy out, whereas in football it's to score more points?

Granted, if you've managed to knock all the other team's players' heads off you'll probably score more than they will, but just the same, if you did that, even if the hits were 100% "legal," you can be sure that the league would take action.

[verticaldoug]

I don't think the bounty system was saying take guys out with dirty hits. I think the bounty system was saying hit them as hard as you can and knock the stuffing out of them. There is a big difference. If you are any good at football, you learn at a young age the best way to win games is to dominate the other team. You basically want to hit whoever you are blocking as hard as possible from the first play. Eventually, they will dread lining up across from you and then you've won your position. As a D-Back you never pass up an opportunity to stick a receiver hard after a catch.Maybe they drop the ball that time or maybe next time, they are looking around to see who's going to hit them and take their eyes off the ball. This is all common sense on the ball field. . .

Like I said in my earlier post, I just think this is an attempt for the team to come together and get everyone up for another game in a long long season. Playing is violent and it hurts. There is no way around it.

[Rada]

You can play with semantics all you like. Bottom line they violated a number of league rules and are going to have to pay the piper.

[veloduffer]

I don't think the bounty system was saying take guys out with dirty hits. I think the bounty system was saying hit them as hard as you can and knock the stuffing out of them. There is a big difference. If you are any good at football, you learn at a young age the best way to win games is to dominate the other team. You basically want to hit whoever you are blocking as hard as possible from the first play. Eventually, they will dread lining up across from you and then you've won your position. As a D-Back you never pass up an opportunity to stick a receiver hard after a catch.Maybe they drop the ball that time or maybe next time, they are looking around to see who's going to hit them and take their eyes off the ball. This is all common sense on the ball field. . .

Like I said in my earlier post, I just think this is an attempt for the team to come together and get everyone up for another game in a long long season. Playing is violent and it hurts. There is no way around it.

It's a slippery slope, though. It is a game built on violence and intimidation, but it is easy to digress into dirty hits and serious injuries (paralysis). More importantly, it adds to the problem of concussions.

Hockey is evaluating its violence, as its star players like Crosby are having an early end to the careers. Similarly with quarterbacks, as the leagues lose their marquee players. Its sad when you look at the players who retired from concussions, like Wayne Chrebet, and they have to live with the effects for the rest of their lives.

Take this kind of system to a lower level, like high school or junior football or hockey. Would you want your kid at risk of a huge hit?

And if that thinking should carry over to other sports? Should there be a bounty system for giving hard fouls (each player has 5 or 6 to give), like in basketball, to intimidate the opposition? See where this is going.

In the end, it's a game and there is a life to live after the game. We should have evolved/progressed from the days of Roman gladiators but have not.

[verticaldoug]

And if that thinking should carry over to other sports? Should there be a bounty system for giving hard fouls (each player has 5 or 6 to give), like in basketball, to intimidate the opposition? See where this is going.

In the end, it's a game and there is a life to live after the game. We should have evolved/progressed from the days of Roman gladiators but have not.

You kidding me? The mistake the saints made was paying the bounty. Everything else is business as usual. Whether high school, college or pro, every game prep highlights who needs to be stopped and running practice plays with the meat squad.

As for hard fouls in the NBA, definitely happens.

[William]

It's not surprising to me, It's Pro football. Even in HS football players can be encouraged "Take someone out". I can even remember playing Pee Wee football and there were teams with players pulling all kinds of dirty tactics at that level.

Spearing, clothesline, High-low, elbows, eye jabs, breaking fingers in the pile, hitting from behind, all unfortunate but they have been known to happen at all levels.

Heck, even at this level they resort to hypodermic needles...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H8GZENV9Hs





William

[rugbysecondrow]

Ummm, because in boxing the whole point of the sport is to knock the other guy out, whereas in football it's to score more points?

Granted, if you've managed to knock all the other team's players' heads off you'll probably score more than they will, but just the same, if you did that, even if the hits were 100% "legal," you can be sure that the league would take action.


If it was just about points then it would be flag football or touch. It is about physicality, a domination that allows you to impose your will and points are a way of reflecting that.

Read comments from Jim Brown on physicality, enlightening.

[G-Reg]

...
And if that thinking should carry over to other sports? Should there be a bounty system for giving hard fouls (each player has 5 or 6 to give), like in basketball, to intimidate the opposition? See where this is going...

Watch the Miami Vs Lakers game today. Someone on the Lakers will take a hard foul on either L James or Wade. Wade gave Kobe a broken nose and a mild concussion in the all star game.

The Lakers will have a bounty on a heat player today. The coach and the entire organization know it and expect it. Phil Jackson would have demanded it.

[gdw]

Yawn, much ado about nothing.

Contact sports aren't for pussies. Play 100% and expect the opposition to do the same.

[Viper]

Contact sports they play
Contract assassination
Roger Goodell time:

http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2012/03/roger_goodell_must_make_an_exa.html

Playing a sport, any sport (other than boxing/MMA)...you cannot, as a mandate/incentive with the intent to hurt or injure. It's no longer sport. Football is laden with brain-injured athletes, the NFL has finally made a move towards removing cheap shots as they look to protect their players.

It's not about what us viewers, fans think. It's about what NFL players will say regarding this cheesy, lowball, low brow Saints 'Boba Fett Program'.

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/small/1006/drinking-buddies-darth-vader-boba-fett-beer-demotivational-poster-1277499632.jpg

http://www.geekologie.com/2011/03/01/boba-fett-lost-woods.jpg

Wait, watch and listen to NFL player's comments...none will endorse it and then wait for Goodell's blasting of New Orleans' coaching staff.

Play hard, tough and rough? Great. Awesome. Go team, go. Play with the *intent* to *injure*? Your team's coaching staff has got issues and the players too; folks imagine your kid in High School ball with a fractured C5 and slight brain injury due to the evil plot of a coach handed down to a player. Coaches created the bounty program. Blame them the most.

In baseball, the parallel is when a manager tells his pitcher to throw one inside, or to intentionally hit the batter. Throw at a players shoulder, arse or ankles, fine, but when the hitter is struck in the face/helmet, it's a really big deal.

Those Eyetalians hurt Dave Stoller. You can't throw your pump into some dude's spokes. You can't plan on chop-blocking and blowing out someone's ACL. Dave got bruised, but he got the girl:

http://www.thebluegrassspecial.com/archive/2011/feb2011/imagesfeb2011/katarina-dave2.jpg

Robyn Douglass (aka Katarina) was in (secret) Playboy, 1974 and FYI, she was in the original 1980 Battlestar Galactica.

Roger Goodell will crush the New Orleans Saints. It's his job to do so, to define right and wrong. This world is so laden with moral relativism, everything is everything. What's clear is this, those athletes who take cheap shots? They are the real p*ssies. :)

[rugbysecondrow]

What's clear is this, those athletes who take cheap shots? They are the real p*ssies. :)

I agree, but who took a cheap shot? Encouraging hard hitting is not the same as a cheap shot.

This is a pretty clear distinction that I am surprised folks are missing.

[1centaur]

If I were creating my idealized version of American football, I'd want to see hitting that was hard enough to stop the ball and that's it. When I learned to play rugby as a schoolboy in England I learned to tackle below the waist which I took as both an effective way to stop the ball and a way to prevent certain types of injuries. When I moved back to America and saw American football I was amazed at the violence inherent in above the waist tackling.

As we can see in this thread, there are a couple of diverse approaches to what football SHOULD be, though I think we mostly agree on what it IS. A certain type of guy, and a certain type of fan, views extra hard hits as inherently a desirable part of the sport. Many don't see it that way. The sport thrives in part because both views are satisfied. But just as fights in hockey could be eliminated by rule changes, so could football be something far more than flag or touch and far less than gigantic hits, plagues of concussions and 3 years of career followed by 35 years of physical disability and pain. My simile would be child labor in Asia - the consumers of those goods can buy the cheap product and pretend not to know about how it was made. Football fans can cheer for the brutality and look away from the consequences, while paying for others to go through that brutality for their entertainment. If the truth were in our faces all the time we could not ignore the sausage making. We would demand rules changes that make a difference and the game would still largely be the same in terms of its entertainment value. Ultimately, the mentality we see in these bounties was allowed and endorsed by our dollars.

[gdw]

In the old days cheap shot artists were marked men, I doubt that has changed.

The chief issue here is that money was exchanged and the coaching staff was involved.

[93legendti]

I don't doubt that many break this rule.
Otoh, the league keeps track of QB knockdowns...

[Viper]

Giants beat the Patriots and my Knicks just took the lead on the Celts. :) Football shouldn't be in the news right now and if it is, it's all bad.

[Louis]

It is about physicality, a domination that allows you to impose your will

I don't think anyone here has a problem with that, and in fact agrees 100% with that statement. You could say the same thing about two cyclists in the final climb of a TdF mountain stage.

All folks are saying about football is that when actions are taken with intent to harm, then unlike boxing, it should not be a part of the game. (Unless you want to create a new game.)

[rugbysecondrow]

I don't think anyone here has a problem with that, and in fact agrees 100% with that statement. You could say the same thing about two cyclists in the final climb of a TdF mountain stage.

All folks are saying about football is that when actions are taken with intent to harm, then unlike boxing, it should not be a part of the game. (Unless you want to create a new game.)


I guess the grey area is the part not readily admitted. If you intend to hit somebody hard, you must admit the intent to harm or admit to being ignorant (purposefully or not) regarding the impact your actions may have. Did I want to permanently disable somebody, no way. Did I want that person to be doubled over or have bruised thighs and be slowed down...you bet your arse.

If I were creating my idealized version of American football, I'd want to see hitting that was hard enough to stop the ball and that's it. When I learned to play rugby as a schoolboy in England I learned to tackle below the waist which I took as both an effective way to stop the ball and a way to prevent certain types of injuries. When I moved back to America and saw American football I was amazed at the violence inherent in above the waist tackling.
.

I actually agree with this. Kids should learn how to tackle properly, how to play the game before hitting. That is why most US Rugby programs don't even involve tackle until the kids hit a certain age.

I also agree with effective tackling, the problem is that US Football has the play clock, it is tailor made for the big hits because there is no immediate need for a recovery. I liken it to shooting pool, hit the ball in the side pocket but also being in position for subsequent shots. Football is not like that where as rugby and hockey are.

Truth be told, I think football is too sensationalized and over the top. I am looking forward to baseball season.

[saab2000]

I don't play football and never did so my comments are only as a fan. But I am a pretty big fan, growing up about 40 minutes from Lambeau Field and seeing many great players as a kid. I got to see Walter Payton several times, Joe Montana, Fran Tarkenton, Brett Favre, Barry Sanders, etc. Many Hall of Famers.

In all the years I've watched football it's never been about the hits. In fact I have always thought dirty cheap shots lessen the game because my favorite player might be taken out of the game. This in fact happened once when Lynn Dickey suffered a broken leg at the end of the season and missed the whole next season too. He did come back from it but lost a lot of his career because of it. Joe Theisman too.

I'd rather see a clean game where the better team wins and yeah, I understand it's a hard, violent game played by strong men. I get that. And injuries happen. But dirty play is inexcusable in my book.

I can accept the Green Bay Packers losing (barely....) but I don't want to see anyone go down because of cheap shots and dirty play. Thankfully I don't think it's part of the culture of the Packers. Not too much talk of dirty play there at least not that I know of.

[verticaldoug]

I don't play football and never did so my comments are only as a fan. But I am a pretty big fan, growing up about 40 minutes from Lambeau Field and seeing many great players as a kid. I got to see Walter Payton several times, Joe Montana, Fran Tarkenton, Brett Favre, Barry Sanders, etc. Many Hall of Famers.

In all the years I've watched football it's never been about the hits. In fact I have always thought dirty cheap shots lessen the game because my favorite player might be taken out of the game. This in fact happened once when Lynn Dickey suffered a broken leg at the end of the season and missed the whole next season too. He did come back from it but lost a lot of his career because of it. Joe Theisman too.

I'd rather see a clean game where the better team wins and yeah, I understand it's a hard, violent game played by strong men. I get that. And injuries happen. But dirty play is inexcusable in my book.

I can accept the Green Bay Packers losing (barely....) but I don't want to see anyone go down because of cheap shots and dirty play. Thankfully I don't think it's part of the culture of the Packers. Not too much talk of dirty play there at least not that I know of.

I don't think either Dickey's or Theisman's injuries were dirty plays. Both had the tackler jump on them when their leg was planted for throwing.

The real dirty hits typically where the helmet to helmet hit. In particular, the helmet to helmet is really malicious on a receiver crossing the middle. I recall the hit on Reggie Brown from Georgia. And perhaps the most infamous hit of all being Jack Tatum on Daryl Stingley where he paralyzed him. Chop back blocks are also out. The wrap up and body slam also illegal. Ditto the horse collar. These are all dirty plays. There doesn't seem to be a rash of this stuff going on. And the refs call it . .

But check out this hit on Reggie Bush. Looks clean to me. But the guy was going to knock the stuffing out of Reggie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce6VlbQDa90&feature=related

Just watch a coach on the sideline talk to a player who blew an assignment whether blocking or tackling. Coach is telling him to smack the guy harder next time. Wrap him up. Smack him.. Same thing in the huddle. It's not playing dirty. It's called hitting him so hard he mentally quits.

[Earl Gray]

....But dirty play is inexcusable in my book.....

"dirty Play" is not caused by the bounty.

[Climb01742]

one thing that's been lost in this conversation is that football is played by 22 men. different positions approach the game differently. and even within positions, different players approach their role differently. yesterday dion sanders only half jokingly said about this story, 'you mean we were supposed to tackle people?' dion's game wasn't violent, not as a DB or a kick returner. on the other side were players like jack tatum and ronnie lott. then today you have derrell revis. his entire game is built on blanketing a wide-out so completely, no one ever even throws his way.

then there are running backs. backs like barry sanders built careers on evading big hits, on leaving tacklers with just arms full of air. on the other side were backs like jerome 'the bus' bettis who loved to dish out hits.

then there are QBs. violence has no part in their game. just skill and artistry.

my main point is, some of the characterizations of football are too simplistic. yes, violence is part of the game, but only a part, and only a part for some positions, mostly on defense. most offensive players build their games around avoiding hits or in the case of offensive linemen, using the aggression of defensive players against them with blocking techniques and schemes like traps, screens and misdirection.

the game is far more complex than some here portray it. it has many facets, many players and many styles. headhunting is just one.

[Fixed]

game played by millionaires who cares
imho
cheers :beer:

[Viper]

game played by millionaires who cares
imho
cheers :beer:

+1 million.

We ought to Occupy the fields of the NFL, not the stands. We ought to Occupy the courts of the NBA, not the stands. We ought to Occupy the diamond of MLB, not the stands.

These cats don't even know there are 26 letters in the alphabet, make umpteen millions a year and who the **** cares is right. Big Oil? Big Pharma? Big Gov? Big Sports people!

/with Fixed on this. The salaries these cats make and the cost of tickets...it sticks in my craw.

cliffs: www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVdde-qVTQQ


:beer:

[rugbysecondrow]

Agreed. Obviously position and the game of the individual player matters. My perspective is more from Rugby where everybody plays offense and defense. Sure, some guys were not big hitters, but one of my jobs as a Forward, was to hit hard.

So you are absolutely correct and a good nuance to bring to the conversation.



one thing that's been lost in this conversation is that football is played by 22 men. different positions approach the game differently. and even within positions, different players approach their role differently. yesterday dion sanders only half jokingly said about this story, 'you mean we were supposed to tackle people?' dion's game wasn't violent, not as a DB or a kick returner. on the other side were players like jack tatum and ronnie lott. then today you have derrell revis. his entire game is built on blanketing a wide-out so completely, no one ever even throws his way.

then there are running backs. backs like barry sanders built careers on evading big hits, on leaving tacklers with just arms full of air. on the other side were backs like jerome 'the bus' bettis who loved to dish out hits.

then there are QBs. violence has no part in their game. just skill and artistry.

my main point is, some of the characterizations of football are too simplistic. yes, violence is part of the game, but only a part, and only a part for some positions, mostly on defense. most offensive players build their games around avoiding hits or in the case of offensive linemen, using the aggression of defensive players against them with blocking techniques and schemes like traps, screens and misdirection.

the game is far more complex than some here portray it. it has many facets, many players and many styles. headhunting is just one.

game played by millionaires who cares
imho
cheers :beer:

You would be correct if this was an NFL issue alone, but I think it is spread across numerous sports and at various levels of those sports. I played amateur ball where this was the culture as well.

[Climb01742]

two men that would have interesting takes on this issue would be jack tatum and daryl stingley. not saying them are emblematic of the issue, but they are two men who have had to live with the consequences of the sport.

[rugbysecondrow]

two men that would have interesting takes on this issue would be jack tatum and daryl stingley. not saying them are emblematic of the issue, but they are two men who have had to live with the consequences of the sport.


Earlier somebody posted an article about Tatum and Stingley, and that Tatum refused to ever publicly apologize for the incident.

The sad truth is that by engaging in activity 'A', you put yourself at certain risk. We do this with riding, especially road riding. We ask the risks by participating in an action. Such is life.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[Climb01742]

Earlier somebody posted an article about Tatum and Stingley, and that Tatum refused to ever publicly apologize for the incident.

The sad truth is that by engaging in activity 'A', you put yourself at certain risk. We do this with riding, especially road riding. We ask the risks by participating in an action. Such is life.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

i agree. i wasn't hating on tatum. my point was that the risks can sometimes change the entire course of a life. that's a lot. i don't have a solution but it's a very fine line between putting a guy out of a game and putting him on a wheelchair. i saw a teammate break his neck in practice in high school. it haunted the rest of my mediocre high school career.

[PQJ]

I'd be curious to know about injury stats in pro rugby vs. pro football. I come from a 'real' rugby playing nation, and our impression of American rugby players, college and otherwise, is that they're too violent and seem to think that that is what the game is about. It isn't. I'd like to think that (American) football is about more than just violence as well.

[rugbysecondrow]

I'd be curious to know about injury stats in pro rugby vs. pro football. I come from a 'real' rugby playing nation, and our impression of American rugby players, college and otherwise, is that they're too violent and seem to think that that is what the game is about. It isn't. I'd like to think that (American) football is about more than just violence as well.

That would be interesting. I am certain that there is sport creep into USA Rugby, I saw it myself. Many of the guys I played with came from a football background and so they had that mentality already. Incidentally, they often hurt themselves because they tackled like they had pads. I never played football, so when I learned how to play it with more proper technique. Lots of time with tackling dummies, practicing seeing the ball at all times, see what you are tackling. Learn to tackle right, then learn how to do it hard.

I don't think rugby is about violence, but that also doesn't mean it is not a part of it. Having watched six nations this month as well as the international sevens tourney in the USA, it is clear violence is part of it. What is important to note though is that in Rugby, it is a personal violence, not flagrant typically. No pads means there is an accountability. I can't throw my body around in a foolish way because I can hurt myself as much or more than the other guy.

USA Rugby lacks the skills at all levels that other traditional rugby nations have. As the sport develops, youth are trained properly, skills developed and honed, then I think we will see an improvement through the ranks of USA Rugby. That is starting to cycle through programs now and I anticipate the next 20 years will see great progress to that end. Like I said early, many youth rugby programs in the USA don't even have tackling, it is all skills development, which is a very good thing.

Start here:
http://www.usarugby.org/goto/minutes#cc%3D%5BApplication%5D%5C%5CStructure%5C%5 CContent%5C%5CBrand%20Resource%20Center%5C%5CConte nt%5C%5CHome%5C%5C20907F3F-1296-BCB9-B515-6C9E0CAADE56%5C%5C20907F3F-1298-4820-43D4-EFFD70C41C27%7B%7BTab%3AView%7D%7D

Go here:

http://www.usarugby.org/goto/minutes#cc%3D%5BApplication%5D%5C%5CStructure%5C%5 CContent%5C%5CBrand%20Resource%20Center%5C%5CConte nt%5C%5CHome%5C%5C20907F3F-1296-BCB9-B515-6C9E0CAADE56%5C%5C23181D59-12DC-DC86-DDFD-4AE4A939C8B7%7B%7BTab%3AView%7D%7D

Then here:
http://www.usarugby.org/goto/minutes#cc%3D%5BApplication%5D%5C%5CStructure%5C%5 CContent%5C%5CBrand%20Resource%20Center%5C%5CConte nt%5C%5CHome%5C%5C20907F3F-1296-BCB9-B515-6C9E0CAADE56%7B%7BTab%3AView%7D%7D

[Tom]

... The salaries these cats make and the cost of tickets...it sticks in my craw.


Chris Rock, tangentially on the topic:

"Shaq, he rich. The man that signs Shaq's paychecks? He's wealthy."

The guy that can't walk at the end of his career, I figure he should get enough money to be comfortable.

Or as my neighbor George Seldes used to scrawl across the NYT Sports Section: "Opiate del Pueblo".