Thinking out loud. Tubing thoughts

[Jack Brunk]

Random thoughts,

Smiley thinking about lightweight steel tubing has me thinking about my next road bike. I sold the BH and now my only road bike is the Hampsten titanium Gran Paradiso fixed gear. I have always loved S3 steel on any of the steel bikes I've owned. With the addition of the Primus Mootry, I'm really leaning to a steel frame with no frills but top quality tubing and design made by a top quality builder either tig'd or fillet brazed. I'm also in lust looking at the max bike that Hampsten has on his web page and wonder what a combo max/life or S3 or whatever and how that would be. The bike will be built as normal, light, quality parts and a set of world class wheels built by Ergott.
What I'd like to see is what your feelings are on the tubing combo's that you've all own and ridden.
I have a incoming Firefly 29er hardtail so I'm looking at a summer time build.

Thanks in advance.

__________________

[buldogge]

I really enjoy my S3, OX Platinum mixed frame.

Depending on your likes/needs, I would be careful with the rear triangle though.

Mine is a dirt road/all-rounder and the rear triangle (mono stay in this case) is probably a little stiff at times on rough stuff, depending on tire choice.

The frame is fillet brazed and is quite responsive. I would love to try a full bore S3 road frame.

-Mark in St. Louis

[tannhauser]

You've got to be kidding me.

[akelman]

You've got to be kidding me.

Wait, what?

[jimcav]

wait--what light steel haven't you ridden?
My vote is based only on brands I've ridden:
#1 IF XCR
#2 Peg ideally with the new falz fork (but know you already had Peg(s))
#3 Kirk JKS
#4 R33 no frills s3
all that said fillet brazed is most beautiful to me, so would just pick a builder to build a responsive-to-pedal stroke, quick handler

[93legendti]

Sounds like you are describing a Dave Kirk JKS

[tannhauser]

Wait, what?

Not the question, but the source. Jack, God love 'im, has been asking these type of questions for like 7 years through, what, how many bikes Jack? 100+?

Here's the template: ask a question, epic thread, lots of opinions. JB orders the bike or not. "It's the last one. This time for real." Right. Spends time enough at home to take a picture of it at the "pole of revolving inventory". Some lucky dude gets a nice bike for a decent price. Rinse, repeat.

It's just funny. Carry on with all the opinions, etc., and so on and so forth...

[Louis]

dif·fer·ent /ˈdif ə rənt/

Adjective: 1.Not the same as another or each other; unlike in nature, form, or quality. 2.Novel and unusual.

bet·ter /ˈbetər/

Adjective: Of a more excellent or effective type or quality

Good luck with your choice, Jack.

[soulspinner]

Its great Jack invovles us with the build from planning to pics to ride report. Keep it up and thanks Jack. I dig your posts about each bike. :beer:

[VTCaraco]

I like these threads as you get honest opinions from people who have used the stuff. And Jack uses the heck out of what he gets and posts unbiased comments on how it really works. For me, I also get a kick out of the sky's-the-limit build mindset. And if he flips 'em for a discount, what an incredible opportunity for the buyer -- a documented build philosophy, some real road reviews, and a price that is seldom talked about with anything but the highest regard.

Per the question, I have a Carl Strong made with his "custom blend" and a lugged Spirit Foresta built by Craig Ryan. I love both of them, but my needs are different at 200+ pounds pedaling the less-than-ideal roads of VT. My guess is that Carl could make a pretty spectacular option for you; but I think that Dave Kirk or Kelly Bedford or a host of others could also make a spectacular steed for you to enjoy.

Jack ~ post on.
Others ~ keep offering your advice.

I'm curious to see what you decide.

[MattTuck]

My favorite of Jack's past bikes was the Hoogerland (Yes, a joke) themed Pegoretti.

That thing had soul.


Jack has ridden so many frames/materials, I think he is probably more knowledgeable about how they ride than some builders. I'm in line for a Kirk, after having met Dave and seeing his shop, so if you end up going that way Jack, I'm sure you won't be disappointed.

[Chance]

dif·fer·ent /ˈdif ə rənt/

Adjective: 1.Not the same as another or each other; unlike in nature, form, or quality. 2.Novel and unusual.

bet·ter /ˈbetər/

Adjective: Of a more excellent or effective type or quality

Good luck with your choice, Jack.
Does this mean that if a person gets hit in the head by otherwise identical 2-pound steel hammers it won’t feel much different at all whether it’s made of 4130 or S3 as long as the steel is strong enough to stay intact while it crushes the skull? :rolleyes:

[Tyler Evans]

Opinions:

The nicest steel (not stainless) tubeset out there right now for a road bike is the Columbus Spirit, I would choose the Megatube profiles for the down tube, and maybe for the top tube (might opt for round tt though).

For stainless I would choose XCr (http://www.columbustubi.com/eng/4_4_1.htm) drawn in the Max profiles, which is not shown on their site (Bi-axially ovalized top and down tubes). We had Columbus draw the XCr in those profiles around a year ago and have been using this as our stainless tubeset since. Beautiful tubing, a thing to behold.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhlwdedRWk1qgwe7to1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId =AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1330870240&Signature=azqMn9u3Snl6xswwi2cW31Irxyg%3D

[dekindy]

[QUOTE=VTCaraco]
Per the question, I have a Carl Strong made with his "custom blend" and a lugged Spirit Foresta built by Craig Ryan. I love both of them, but my needs are different at 200+ pounds pedaling the less-than-ideal roads of VT.[QUOTE]

My claim to fame is that Craig Ryan is one of my training ride buddies. I guess I will have to reference your frame if I ever have Craig build me one. How did you find out about Craig?

[firerescuefin]

I'd love to hate on you Jack ;) , but at the end of they day it would be jealousy.

Truth be told, with enough discretionary income, I'd be the "cat lady" of high end bikes. They wouldn't go away...I woud just keep adding "one more"

I always thought you on that BH was the 50 y/o professor dating the hot undergrad...you knew how it was going to end.

Tyler's stuff looks amazing. Can't wait to see you new bike

Look forward to hearing about the process.

[rwsaunders]

Some men ask "why"?...Jack Brunk never stops asking "why not"? Good questions yield good results. Thanks for the response, TE.

[mike p]

I've really appreciated Jacks posts over the years. I know when I see Jacks name I'm going to see or read something good.
It's the continual search for the holy grail of bikes. I do the same thing on a much smaller " read cheaper " scale. Jacks obviously got the resources to pursue this quest so I say go for it! I'm only pissed jack is much smaller than me and got away from road bikes! Continue on Jack and report back here.

Mike


QUOTE=tannhauser]Not the question, but the source. Jack, God love 'im, has been asking these type of questions for like 7 years through, what, how many bikes Jack? 100+?

Here's the template: ask a question, epic thread, lots of opinions. JB orders the bike or not. "It's the last one. This time for real." Right. Spends time enough at home to take a picture of it at the "pole of revolving inventory". Some lucky dude gets a nice bike for a decent price. Rinse, repeat.

It's just funny. Carry on with all the opinions, etc., and so on and so forth...[/QUOTE]

[Joachim]

I had a frame made with Columbus Spirit and now have a XCr. I really liked the Spirit frame (it had the megatubes as Tyler mentioned above), except for the rear triangle. I found it too flexy. This is in contrast with my XCr (unfortunately not with the MAX-ish tubes), but it does have a 38mm DT and thicker/rounder stays than my Spirit. There is also a 35mm (I think) XCr DT available. I think my XCr is stiffer than my Spirit, which I think is due to the different size tubes (ie not a stainless vs non-stainless difference).

One of my future projects is an Anderson fillet brazed or lugged with probably Spirit (DT, TT and ST) with True Temper OX platinum rear. Another option I would seriously consider is a Spirit front with Reynolds 953 rear since 953 comes in more sizes than XCr. Even a XCr rear will be interesting.

[tannhauser]

Opinions:

The nicest steel (not stainless) tubeset out there right now for a road bike is the Columbus Spirit, I would choose the Megatube profiles for the down tube, and maybe for the top tube (might opt for round tt though).



What makes Spirit nicest to you: high strength vs. weldable bb/tt area? If so, is this then most suitable for a high efficiency frame vs. a smoother-riding one, or is it possible to have a race-stiff yet truly compliant ride?

[John H.]

I had Steve Rex make me an S3 frame when the tubeset was just out.
I really liked it. Stiff enough for my 150 lb.- did not seem fragile like Columbus Foco (Foco put a bad taste in my mouth for Columbus).
Medium-ish size fillet brazed frame weighed just over 3 lb.
If you are thinking about fillet brazed- Rex would be a good builder to talk to.

[Ryun]

I like the spirit (well Spirit for lugs) set for a great traditional tubeset that has ridden great on all the bikes I have had it on.
I really like that it isnt grossly over sized.

My XCr firely is pretty sweet as well but gets away from the no frills requirement. I am really enjoying the XCr for something a bit firmer...

Which supermodel? ..No bad choices

[Fixed]

Opinions:

The nicest steel (not stainless) tubeset out there right now for a road bike is the Columbus Spirit, I would choose the Megatube profiles for the down tube, and maybe for the top tube (might opt for round tt though).

For stainless I would choose XCr (http://www.columbustubi.com/eng/4_4_1.htm) drawn in the Max profiles, which is not shown on their site (Bi-axially ovalized top and down tubes). We had Columbus draw the XCr in those profiles around a year ago and have been using this as our stainless tubeset since. Beautiful tubing, a thing to behold.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhlwdedRWk1qgwe7to1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId =AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1330870240&Signature=azqMn9u3Snl6xswwi2cW31Irxyg%3D
8 tubes
beautiful
Complex Simplicity
shibumi
cheers

[SPOKE]

Sounds like you are describing a Dave Kirk JKS

Exactly! With 953 inthe main triangle (top & down tubes) and S3 in the rear triangle the bike has a wonderful ride quality. I actually had Dave build a matching steel fork for mine just in case i ever wanted to replace the Reynolds carbon fork. It's one of my "all day" bikes.

[Joachim]

Exactly! With 953 inthe main triangle (top & down tubes) and S3 in the rear triangle the bike has a wonderful ride quality. I actually had Dave build a matching steel fork for mine just in case i ever wanted to replace the Reynolds carbon fork. It's one of my "all day" bikes.

AFAIK its 953 DT, TT and HT, S3 ST and custom drawn Reynolds for the chain and seat stays.

[Jack Brunk]

Great stuff guys. That's why this forum rocks. Seems tube combo's are really nice at this point in time.

[Smiley]

Great stuff guys. That's why this forum rocks. Seems tube combo's are really nice at this point in time.


gotta be careful with the going too light as u will ding the stuff, S3 and Platinium OX is my vote.

[VTCaraco]

My claim to fame is that Craig Ryan is one of my training ride buddies. I guess I will have to reference your frame if I ever have Craig build me one. How did you find out about Craig?
I met Craig across the hall. He gave me a deal on one of his early frames that I couldn't resist. I built it up with some Campy parts and had Echelon John build up a set of A23 wheels. I have no idea what aspect makes it so special, but I absolutely love the way it rides. The Strong is great, but the Foresta simply fits my interests more often at this point.
Give Craig my absolute best. :banana:

[Jack Brunk]

gotta be careful with the going too light as u will ding the stuff, S3 and Platinium OX is my vote.
Tig'd or fillet brazed?

[93legendti]

Exactly! With 953 inthe main triangle (top & down tubes) and S3 in the rear triangle the bike has a wonderful ride quality. I actually had Dave build a matching steel fork for mine just in case i ever wanted to replace the Reynolds carbon fork. It's one of my "all day" bikes.
It sure does ride wonderfully.

What tubes are in your steel fork?

[rounder]

I asked Kelly what my bike was built with, and he said that it was mainly OX with (i believe) Columbus stays.

[Jack Brunk]

was really cool on the Primus Mootry. Pics tell it all. This bike's tubing choice is just about perfect. Thanks Garth!

[Elefantino]

with enough discretionary income, I'd be the "cat lady" of high end bikes. They wouldn't go away...I woud just keep adding "one more"
Robin Williams already is that.

[rounder]

Jack, recommend that you try Kelly stuff... It will not be world class graphics...you choose the graphics. you have probably already tried everything else. My guess is that Kelly can build whatever you like, if you tell him what you want. The results would be interesting.

[Jack Brunk]

Jack, recommend that you try Kelly stuff... It will not be world class graphics...you choose the graphics. you have probably already tried everything else. My guess is that Kelly can build whatever you like, if you tell him what you want. The results would be interesting.

I'm sure he would build a terrific bike. Problem is there's a terrific pool of top tier builders that charge a lot less for a frame. I do love Kelley's work.

[93legendti]

I'm sure he would build a terrific bike. Problem is there's a terrific pool of top tier builders that charge a lot less for a frame. I do love Kelley's work.

I'd like to know who is on that list...
I can think of Curtlo and Strong...

[Kontact]

Is it a good idea to fillet braze air hardening ultra thin tubing? Brazing temps are not going to re-harden it after the heat cycle.


The rest of the question: I can't imagine how a non-Jack Brunk could inform Jack Brunk on highly specific tubing choices. Builders don't even like to talk about stuff like that. S3 comes in a lot of tube sizes before you even get into substituting from other sets.

[SamIAm]

I'm sure he would build a terrific bike. Problem is there's a terrific pool of top tier builders that charge a lot less for a frame. I do love Kelley's work.


You might give Pacenti a call.
He has a project in the works.

[cnighbor1]

At NAHBS 2012 an English complete bicycle weigth just uner 11 lbs. Used SS tubing It was built in Oregon