Question about custom bikes

[Sandy]

The two most important reasons that I bought my CSi in 1998 was the stability of the ride, especially downhill, and the responsiveness of the bike. I thought that all Serotta's that I test rode possessed stability unlike that I found in most other bikes that I tried.

People talk about the design of a particular brand's bikes and what sets that particular bike apart from other brands.

If you are custom ordering a new bike you can design the bike as you wish, so that you can get obtain the ride characteristics that you desire. You can specify the head and seat tube angles, the length of the top tube, seat tube length, rake (Serotta's F3 6.5 fork comes in 40, 43, 47, and 52 mm rakes) and hence trail, head tube extensions, etc. You even have a choice of tube stiffness. Does that not allow you to make a Serotta like a Cannondale or like a Trek or ....? Or does a specific manufactuer, like Serotta, not allow certain design parameters to change and/or be modified too much. For example, does Serotta insist upon a 8 cm bottom bracket drop, or a certain length wheelbase, or a certain chain stay length..., for a given set of design specifications? In other words, does a producer, like Serotta or any other custom producer, allow you to basically design the bike as you want, or will Kelly Bedford, for instance, simply say no to some spec or group of specs and indicate that they are inconsistent with Serotta's basic design? I assume that must be the case. How much leeway is given?


Unique in design,

Serotta Sandy

[Serpico]

I just ordered a Concours, and from what I understand--and comments made by aLexis and others here, is that the fitter will determine the three points and then Kelly makes the decision based on this data and ride characteristics specified by the customer.

My fitter knew exactly what he came up with, but said he will contact me after he gets the specs "back" (from Kelly??).

I've also read that certain framebuilders ;) even eschew the term "custom" for this reason (don't want to put their name on a frame that might ride like sheeat based on customer specs)--and instead only work off a customer's measurements.

Anyways, somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. This subject (process) interests me as well.

[Needs Help]

or will Kelly Bedford, for instance, simply say no to some spec or group of specs and indicate that they are inconsistent with Serotta's basic design? I assume that must be the case. How much leeway is given?
bespoke, theyspoke, e-spoke. As for Serotta look in the gallery--it looks like there is a lot of leeway.

I'll add a question of my own: how do you pick a fork rake to start with when building a custom frame?

[Ray]

I'm sure the custom builders will chime in here, but I've found it varies. Some builders will build more or less whatever you ask them to. If you have angles and dimensions that you like, they'll build to suit. They'll probably offer advice along the way, but its your call. From folks like this, you can get anything from a super tight crit bike to a full on touring bike, but you better know what you're asking for because you're likely to get it.

OTOH, there are custom builders (E-Richie and Rivendell come to mind) who will build a bike for you, based on your dimensions and what you tell them the bike is for, but they do it their way so you get a bike that rides the way they think it should. Rivendell, for example, has certain design parameters that they pretty much insist on. They don't do super short chainstays, for example, or high bottom brackets (unless its a cross bike, and you'll likely get an argument on that one still), and if you want a bike with a super aggressive racing position, they're probably not the folks to go to. Similarly, E-Richie chooses all the tubes and determines the dimensions of the bike based on your measurements, but based on his experience, not yours.

Personally, as much as I like to dabble with geometry and try to convince myself I have some idea of how the variables work, I'd rather leave the design to a master. Getting ALL the pieces to fit together into a coordinated whole that rides and handles right involves no small bit of magic, and the guys that have been designing bikes for a living for many many years are gonna be better at it than I'll ever be. For example, the custom Spectrum that TK designed for me last winter handles differently than any other bike I've ever ridden and in a way I never could have imagined. I'm exceedingly happy with it and I NEVER could have come up with the combination of angles, dimensions, fork rake, etc, that would have given me this result.

-Ray

[Tailwinds]

Ditto Ray. I could have never come up w/the voodoo that Dave Kirk put into my frame. I haven't posted the ride report yet, but I can tell you that it does EXACTLY what I asked Dave for it do. Any questions I had about the design, Dave patiently explained why/how/etc. I think he'd let someone know if he/she wanted something that would be a poor design. Let the masters, the ones with the experience and skill that do this for a living, decide. Why go with a framebuilder who you don't trust, anyway?

Sandy, are you just curious, or do you have some bike design ideas?

[ergott]

My Serotta is a carbon copy of another bikes geo. I specefied this because I like the old frames dimesions, but I wanted a bike with less torsional flex and the Ottrott ride quality. That's exactly what I got. It is a new and improved version of what I used to ride.

I think if you specify a certain parameter like bb drop, they can arrange the rest of the frame to make it work. Serotta uses a CAD program to design the geometry.

[e-RICHIE]

snipped & cut:
People talk about the design of a particular brand's bikes and what sets that particular bike apart from other brands. If you are custom ordering a new bike you can design the bike as you wish, so that you can get obtain the ride characteristics that you desire. You can specify the head and seat tube angles, the length of the top tube, seat tube length, rake and hence trail, head tube extensions, etc. You even have a choice of tube stiffness. In other words, does a producer, like Serotta or any other custom producer, allow you to basically design the bike as you want? How much leeway is given?

what is custom?
if you design it, what do you know about the sum total of
all your choices that would allow you to guaranty the net
results - the gestalt of it all?

i stopped making custom frames in 1978 and the seminal
moment is described about 1/3 into this interview with grant:
http://www.richardsachs.com/articles/rsachsriv.html

the bicycle has to fit you and it has to work well. the
first part can be a collaborative effort between the client
and the builder and the second part is best left to the builder.
e-RICHIE©™®

[Dr. Doofus]

what E-Ritchie said

looks like doof talked himself into something this weekend that's about a year off

(it'll take him that long to piece together the scratch: forumites -- please ask your oofd now and then if he's putting away a little bit each month, not buying any food at the Bagel Shop, and generally watching the personal expenses each month)

all this ofod will tell the builder is:

"seat height 79, reach to bars 56, setback 17: gimmie a modern version of what Eddy or Barry H would take into a kermesse"

after that, its up to the guy who knows what he's doing to get the angles and BB height and trail and stays right so it does what doof wants. doof should have no input about the angles and BB height and trail and stays cause he doesn't really know anything about that


the guy who designs will make it work...then doof can dork around with a 5mm allen key to get the fit right

that's how it should be

[victoryfactory]

Sandy;

It's been my experience that the placement of the three "contact points"
(hands, feet, butt) must be thought of separately from the other geometry
of the frame.
You can have the same contact points, obviously, with very different
tubing, angles, chain stay, fork rake, front center BB height, etc.

I think most designers have an idea of what they think is an optimum
geometry for their bikes. Then they take the customer's wishes and
requests in to consideration. (sometimes)

The builder must be able to interpret the customers's input and filter out the
BS, and give the customer the bike he needs, regardless of the confusion
the customer may deliver when ordering.
That is where the ART of bike fitting comes in, and ultimately, the reputation
of a builder has as much to do with that ART than it has with what material
or brand of tube he uses.
I remember the back and forth between my fitter, (Paul), Kelly and me over
my Legend Ti, The fitter was mainly concerned with contact points, I was
mainly concerned with ride and handling, and Kelly was mainly concened
with building a frame that did not get whacked out geometrically while
trying to bring it all together.

The result:
My legend is the best bike I've ever ridden, in every way.

VF, my 3 cents on the fit issue.

[chrisroph]

Well, let me try and be specific. I don't really make custom frames. I make frames made to designed in a way that I think is the best for the person who I am fitting a bike to. In the beginning of my career I had customers who were National team members and people that were just the best riders in the country. Strangely, they always asked for something that was comfortable and stable, and I kind of bookmarked that and I thought this distinction is really odd because people that I am making the bikes for that are racing on the national level, and they want bikes that, by Bicycling magazine standards, were not "racing bicycles". They wanted the bikes to be, all summed up, longer and lower, just the opposite of the way the bike journalists of the day said racing bikes should be.

I think the line in the sand came when one of my clients, Rudy Sroka, who was also a good friend of mine, was on the first American team to be invited to the Tour de L'Avenir, which for those who don't know, is the amateur Tour de France. He wanted the bike to be 76 degree parallel, with an 11_ inch bottom bracket, the shortest chainstays possible, and a minimum fork rake. I made the bike because I thought that, "Well, bike makers make bikes to order and this is what Rudy asked for." He was my pal and an accomplished racer, and I figured, well I'm not going to argue. The bike looked great; you couldn't tell from the side that it was queer. It was what he wanted. He had enormous success on it, but when he went to the Tour de L'Avenir, which was his first taste of European stage racing, he lasted three or four stages. There, the team manager, Mike Neel, said to him, "If you ever get invited back to Europe to represent America in the stage races, don't bring that bike. Or if you ever find out I'm the coach, don't bring that bike."

Rudy related that story to me and at that point I said to myself, "That's it." None of this stuff ever made sense to me. I didn't know how to say no. I was still getting the information for my other customer's orders that said they liked their bikes the other way (with the inane geometry). The real racers and the National team guys, all wanted it to be this way, meaning more rationally designed. So I stopped making bikes to order and I decided to use my experience from the sport and say, "Look — there are two people in this equation, and I know more about the design than you do. I will design the bike to fit you perfectly. The result of this will be based on what I think will be correct for a bike." Rudy's was the last frame order I filled in which the client spec-ed the geometry and the key numbers. In other words, from the beginning I thought many of the so-called custom frame orders were coming through with requests for design elements that were contradictory with good handling and balance, and the incident with pal Rudy and his Tour de L'Avenir experience galvanized my decision to, once and for all, make my frames my way.

[Sandy]

The responses in this thread are some of the very best that I have read in the forum. Thanks for the insight and wonderful articulation of the content.

Could one simply do the following:

1. Tell the builder what ride chracteristics of the bike that you want

2. Tell the builder a little about yourself (age, weight, riding interests...)

3. Give saddle height, saddle setback, reach to bar, and drop from saddle to handlebar (wouldn't drop help).

4. Tell the builder to do his thing and build you the bike as he sees fit.

This of course is based on the premise that in number 3, you have your fit dialed in.


Sandy

[Sandy]

Isn't there an inherent problem with giving saddle height, reach to bar, saddle set back, and drop? You might not have an ideal set up and have no clue that you don't?


Clueless in Rockville, MD

[1centaur]

"Could one simply do the following: (basically tell the builder how you want it to ride and let him decide how to build it)"?

I am mystified by this approach. Sure it's possible that you don't know enough about the bikes you have ridden to make choices that are as intelligent as an experienced builder, but if you have noted the effects of various BB drops and rake/trail and chainstay length, and if you have certain aesthetic sensibilities (such as TT slope and HT length vs. spacers), who the heck cares if the builder wants to put his view of the world ahead of yours? Unless you want something really wacky, ST angles are going to be 72.5-74, HT angles 72-74, BB drop 7-8, chainstay length 40-42, etc. This is not rocket science and it's not magic - this is getting the fit right and knowing how certain characteristics effect ride. Plenty of customers can figure that out after a while, and plenty of builders might interpret vague notions of ride quality different from you. For my dollar, I want it spot on, and I know what I am asking for. Of course, I had to buy a few bikes before I did. :)

[ergott]

What if I came to you and asked you to copy what I have? The geometry is from a stock road bike from a big name and has proven to be a good design. I also feel very comfortable with my current setup. Would you do that or would you take my seat and bar measurements relative to the cranks and go from there? Would you keep my stem length into consideration as well?

[e-RICHIE]

[QUOTE=1centaur]This is not rocket science and it's not magic - this is getting the fit right and knowing how certain characteristics effect ride. Plenty of customers can figure that out after a while, and plenty of builders might interpret vague notions of ride quality different from you. For my dollar, I want it spot on, and I know what I am asking for.QUOTE]



most people can ask for anything but may not be aware
how the resultant measurements from their requests come
into play.
what charateristics affecting ride are you refering to?

[e-RICHIE]

What if I came to you and asked you to copy what I have? The geometry is from a stock road bike from a big name and has proven to be a good design. I also feel very comfortable with my current setup. Would you do that or would you take my seat and bar measurements relative to the cranks and go from there? Would you keep my stem length into consideration as well?


why wouldn't you simply buy another
bike like the one you already are
comfortable with; the same one,
that is?

[bostondrunk]

why wouldn't you simply buy another
bike like the one you already are
comfortable with; the same one,
that is?

Well if people thought like that, no one would ever own more than one bike (assuming they liked their original bike)........ :confused: :crap:

[e-RICHIE]

Well if people thought like that, no one would ever own more than one bike (assuming they liked their original bike)........ :confused: :crap:


*** & DOH?!
the guy wants to buy another bicycle.
my point is that the original maker should
be part of the equation.

[bostondrunk]

*** & DOH?!
the guy wants to buy another bicycle.
my point is that the original maker should
be part of the equation.


idiot!!!! ;)

I'm saying that just because Joe Blow has a Colnago that he loves, doesn't mean he wouldn't also like to have a Ritchie Sachs with the same geometry. Am I reading this wrong (definite possibility....)!?

Man, the hostility on this forum is just sickening. You should all be ashamed of yourselves!!!!! :D

[e-RICHIE]

idiot!!!! ;)

I'm saying that just because Joe Blow has a Colnago that he loves, doesn't mean he wouldn't also like to have a Ritchie Sachs with the same geometry. Am I reading this wrong (definite possibility....)!?

Man, the hostility on this forum is just sickening. You should all be ashamed of yourselves!!!!! :D

have some decaf, eh.
if he has a colnago that he likes, what is the point
for him to have someone replicate it; the colnago
was made in a factory and the sum total of all the
choices made at that factory is what "he" likes; it
is not just the geometry.

[dnovo]

Geez, get busy, drop out for a bit, come back for a day, and people seem to be committing common sense while I'm gone. Come on, e-Richie, what happened to this group while I was busy playing lawyer, did you all grow up on me? Stop with all this sage counsel, I may have to vanish again if this ain't Never-Never Land. Dave N.

[bostondrunk]

have some decaf, eh.
if he has a colnago that he likes, what is the point
for him to have someone replicate it; the colnago
was made in a factory and the sum total of all the
choices made at that factory is what "he" likes; it
is not just the geometry.

So anyone who has a bike they like, and they like that geometry, they should never consider buying a Sachs or any other different brand bike. That is what you are saying?
That is pretty weird.....
Oh, I mean......weird-issimo....

[e-RICHIE]

who are you?
bananas.
welcome back.

[David Kirk]

Good to hear you mr. dnovo.

Dave

[e-RICHIE]

So anyone who has a bike they like, and they like that geometry, they should never consider buying a Sachs or any other different brand bike. That is what you are saying?
That is pretty weird.....
Oh, I mean......weird-issimo....

don't put words in my mouth you substance abuser.
follow the thread; his "fit" is worth replicating. for
him - the proverbial "him" - to want the same bike
he has to be built by another builder is not logical
because his frame is factory made and, as such,
those production assembly methods are part of
the package that he enjoys.
should i be getting pre-heaters and automated
equipment to fill that order?

[Redturbo]

This is not rocket science and it's not magic

Yes it's magic, (pfm) pure f***in magic!

turbo :banana:

[Fixed]

So we send measurements contact points and tell what kind ride we want like sprinting ,climbing and let the master work his magic.you have to believe Bro. Cheers :beer: :beer:

[bostondrunk]

don't put words in my mouth you substance abuser.
follow the thread; his "fit" is worth replicating. for
him - the proverbial "him" - to want the same bike
he has to be built by another builder is not logical
because his frame is factory made and, as such,
those production assembly methods are part of
the package that he enjoys.
should i be getting pre-heaters and automated
equipment to fill that order?

I respectfully disagree, Mr Twizzler. Do we need to 'take a pill'???

[e-RICHIE]

how can you disagree?
the geometry is part of the bicycle "he" wants
replicated. what about the construction details,
the alignment tolerances, the nuances of the
original brand? all these (and more) are part
of the equation. how can "these" be replicated?

let me make it simple for you:
if augy busch gave me his rolodex,
could I make budweiser?

[bostondrunk]

how can you disagree?
the geometry is part of the bicycle "he" wants
replicated. what about the construction details,
the alignment tolerances, the nuances of the
original brand? all these (and more) are part
of the equation. how can "these" be replicated?

let me make it simple for you:
if augy busch gave me his rolodex,
could I make budweiser?

I disagree simply because I think it is common for people to own a bike they like, and then decide they want a second (or third, or fourth, etc.) bike, and ask that it be made with the same geometry as their first. What is so strange about that?!?!
Sure, other 'things' can make a difference, the type of tubing, etc. As far as alignment, well if I own a colnago and it is aligned properly, then I order a frame from you, I am -assuming- you will align it properly, etc. That isn't to say that your frame may still feel different compared to his original frame..........................But I'm still not getting how you think it is so strange that someone could call you and say "I'D LIKE ON OF YOUR FRAMES. I LIKE THIS GEOMETRY. CAN YOU MAKE IT?".

Someone other than E-ritchie please tell me what the **** I am missing here???
Is that what Indurain did when he got a frame from Dario? He called him and said "Well Dario, you know, I like to climb and time trial a lot. Build me a bike"..............or did he call him and say "I need a bike with these measurements..........".
When senior jerk ordered his big leg emma, did he tell Dario to surprise him with the geometry, or did he give him the numbers?
Again, what the **** am I missing here? And no I'm not drunk tonight!!!! :)

[csb]

.

[e-RICHIE]

...Is that what Indurain did when he got a frame from Dario? He called him and said "Well Dario, you know, I like to climb and time trial a lot. Build me a bike"..............or did he call him and say "I need a bike with these measurements..........".
When senior jerk ordered his big leg emma, did he tell Dario to surprise him with the geometry, or did he give him the numbers?

i bet you a meal at mcsorleys that dario designed the
frame and that the fit meaurements/contact points
were indurain's, and they prolly looked like what he
had been using up until then. if he needed a changin',
then the new frame would incorporate it. if i'm wrong,
you can't just order soup and then expect to get dinner
on a return trip.

as far as jerk goes, there's a case of fenway franks
in this for you if you find that jerk "designed" the
frame pixel by pixel.

[Dr. Doofus]

The responses in this thread are some of the very best that I have read in the forum. Thanks for the insight and wonderful articulation of the content.

Could one simply do the following:

1. Tell the builder what ride chracteristics of the bike that you want

2. Tell the builder a little about yourself (age, weight, riding interests...)

3. Give saddle height, saddle setback, reach to bar, and drop from saddle to handlebar (wouldn't drop help).

4. Tell the builder to do his thing and build you the bike as he sees fit.

This of course is based on the premise that in number 3, you have your fit dialed in.


Sandy

yep sandman, you hit it

a good builder would ask how you arrived at those fit points, and see some pictures, or even ride with you, or take you into a barn and make you lean on something on your bike, and then look at your body measurements and see if it all squares

doof is now sure of his position -- when he changes something, it hurts

end of story

(yeah, the bars went back up...doof can do ab and back work all day, is super flexy, and the increase in drop felt fine for two weeks...then *Bam* the body rebelled.

a couple of seasons of training hard will tell you what your body needs in terms of position...if you can't get power and be comfy in a position, you won't make it through a full year of hitting it...and if you're a recreational rider, the same thing applies...if you're all over the road, can't get any power, and something hurts, your position is stupid -- which covers almost everyone in Rock Hill SC, which is why doof doesn't do the group rides with the bozos all over the road and contorted in positions god and falerio masi never intended...yeah doof is a crap-talker...but its true)

anyway, if your fit is sound, those three points will do it

why not drop?

well, if you look at the relation of frame setback, reach, and seat height, the necessaries are there...the bars can go up a little, down a little, the seat can go up a little, down a little, back a little, forward a little (were talking mm here, not cm) as need be, but the frame, the basic platform for these fine-tunings that will happen during the year will be straight (look at what bettini said about his saddle height and bar drop -- one goes up and the other goes down during the season...on the same bike...cause its 2mm, maybe 3mm...its in the range for the frame...fodo is guessing that a good builder will take this into account...getting the frame right is not a matter of designing a bike for an unchanging set of fit points down to the mm...it couldn't be, because position changes during the year...)

anyway, today was the start of doof's "spend no money on lattes or snacks and get yourself a nice bike on your 40th next year"...got the .75 coffee and maybe food will be able to send some twizzlers to some crazy dude for some geo input on his Nov 28th 2006 *****in bike....

[ergott]

WOW I leave for a few hours and come back to a bar room brawl!!
Sorry 'bout that.
If I understand Ritchie (is that what you prefer to be called here?) my idea isn't the best way to go about it. The initial reason for maintaining the same geo was because I liked the handling of the bike in question. It is very stable at high speeds, very predictable entering corners and gets the saddle and bars in the right place with respect to the bb. I have ridden two different frame materials from this company and had the same positives to say. My reason for trying a different builder out would be to change little things about the way the bike rode and I didn't like the fact that not only was there a very short warranty and I'd prefer to work with a builder that was local if there was a problem (I crash or something).

The frame made with carbon rode quite nice. I could ride for 100 mile on it and didn't feel sore (except my aching quads). I did feel however that when I sprinted I could feel the bike twist under me more than I liked. I know the Serotta I have corrected this because I have the same identical parts on it and it feels more "solid" underneath me on hard out of the saddle efforts.

The frame made out of steel also had a great ride. I did not like the fact that it felt like I was hauling a ton of bricks uphill. It wasn't that much heavier so I don't think it was the weight, but I couldn't help feel that it wasn't as responsive. It didn't have that "lively" feel.

I like to hear how the master builders would solve this for me. I get the impression from Ritchie that he wouldn't copy the geo. Would you mantain my contact points and go from there? Would you even want to know what the current geo I'm riding is? I was under the impression that the tube choice would effect the ride I'm looking for in this situation because I do like the handling of the bike.

Thank you for your responces. It really helps me understand what make a good frame, well, good.

[e-RICHIE]

[QUOTE=ergott]1) Would you mantain my contact points and go from there? 2) Would you even want to know what the current geo I'm riding is? 3) I was under the impression that the tube choice would effect the ride I'm looking for in this situation because I do like the handling of the bike.[QUOTE]


1) if they are correct for you and you are riding injury-free, yes!
2) nah. i'd "study" the position details.
3) i'm not sure if that is relevant because if it is,
then you also have to factor in the build quality
and sequences of the frame you love in the
first place - and "replicating" those details is
not possible.

[ergott]

[QUOTE=ergott]1) Would you mantain my contact points and go from there? 2) Would you even want to know what the current geo I'm riding is? 3) I was under the impression that the tube choice would effect the ride I'm looking for in this situation because I do like the handling of the bike.[QUOTE]


1) if they are correct for you and you are riding injury-free, yes!
2) nah. i'd "study" the position details.
3) i'm not sure if that is relevant because if it is,
then you also have to factor in the build quality
and sequences of the frame you love in the
first place - and "replicating" those details is
not possible.



Thanks,

[Sandy]

What I don't understand is why so many bicycles are produced with the steerer tube cut, with no flexibility for a potential desire to raise the handlebar because of aging and/or injury and/or lack of flexibility for whatever reason. I have seen custom frames designed and built by custom builders for older people, with no possibilty to change the spacer configuation to raise the handlebar. That limits change in an upward direction. Makes no sense to me. Positions change over time.


Sandy

[Sandy]

Stay with us for a while. You have been missed by many!


Sandy

[Peter]

"I'll add a question of my own: how do you pick a fork rake to start with when building a custom frame?"

1. Know the specs of bikes you've ridden and be able to qualify what you like/dislike of each.

2. Understand how rake and trail affect the handling of a bike by reading whatever you can find, as well as calculating various rake/trail combinations using the widely available formulas.

3. I also think it helps to ride bikes that handle awfully either by design (from manufacture or by bending a fork yourself) or accident so you know the results of stepping outside the boundaries.

[yim]

What I don't understand is why so many bicycles are produced with the steerer tube cut, with no flexibility for a potential desire to raise the handlebar because of aging and/or injury and/or lack of flexibility for whatever reason. I have seen custom frames designed and built by custom builders for older people, with no possibilty to change the spacer configuation to raise the handlebar. That limits change in an upward direction. Makes no sense to me. Positions change over time.


Sandy

What kind of bicycles you refer to ?
You may have this problem if you bought a pre-built or shown room complete bike.
For all new forks, they are uncut until you told to.
You can cut the fork with 5cm extra lenght above you current stem position for future adjustment.
Will you?

[round]

Geez, get busy, drop out for a bit, come back for a day, and people seem to be committing common sense while I'm gone. Come on, e-Richie, what happened to this group while I was busy playing lawyer, did you all grow up on me? Stop with all this sage counsel, I may have to vanish again if this ain't Never-Never Land. Dave N.


Ciao Dnovo,
bentornato!
Dario

[Needs Help]

Thanks Peter. So, you're essentially looking for a head tube angle and fork rake that will give you the trail you want?

[The Spider]

Round, E-richie, etc

The perfect client walks in the door, emails, rings...whatever...

what do they bring with them.....physical measurements, current bike specs, contact points?

[William]

Round, E-richie, etc

The perfect client walks in the door, emails, rings...whatever...

what do they bring with them.....physical measurements, current bike specs, contact points?

Don't forget your cash ($$$). ;)

Me too, what The Spider said.

Additionally,
for someone like me where custom is pretty much the only option, what additional factors do you take into consideration pertaining to size, weight, and power?

William

[Sandy]

How should I say this without hurting your feelings? You certainly have the size, the weight, and the power. But you ain't got no looks! I, on the other hand, don't have the power, but I have the size, weight, AND the looks. :banana:

Loooking Good,


Sandy

[William]

How should I say this without hurting your feelings? You certainly have the size, the weight, and the power. But you ain't got no looks! I, on the other hand, don't have the power, but I have the size, weight, AND the looks. :banana:

Loooking Good,


Sandy
I gotta "LOOK" on my face right now Sandy!! :mad:



William :D

[scrooge]

The responses in this thread are some of the very best that I have read in the forum. Thanks for the insight and wonderful articulation of the content.

Could one simply do the following:

1. Tell the builder what ride chracteristics of the bike that you want

2. Tell the builder a little about yourself (age, weight, riding interests...)

3. Give saddle height, saddle setback, reach to bar, and drop from saddle to handlebar (wouldn't drop help).

4. Tell the builder to do his thing and build you the bike as he sees fit.

This of course is based on the premise that in number 3, you have your fit dialed in.


Sandy

That's exactly what I did--and I'm quite pleased with what he came up with (I did get fit by at my LBS and sent the builder pics of me on the size-cycle and of the bike I was currently riding)

[scrooge]

What I don't understand is why so many bicycles are produced with the steerer tube cut, with no flexibility for a potential desire to raise the handlebar because of aging and/or injury and/or lack of flexibility for whatever reason. I have seen custom frames designed and built by custom builders for older people, with no possibilty to change the spacer configuation to raise the handlebar. That limits change in an upward direction. Makes no sense to me. Positions change over time.


Sandy

Not that I'm an expert, but I think it's because people are stupid (some people, at least--noone here). To put it a more gentle way--they're short sighted. I would think that had the folks in question said to there builder, "I want to be riding this thing in ten years, leave me room to grow," they would've gotten that. But they probably didn't.

[e-RICHIE]

curious here...
what (other) consumer good would you purchase
where you'd ask for a similar concession?

[Sandy]

curious here...
what (other) consumer good would you purchase
where you'd ask for a similar concession?

Is your question related to the steerer tube concern?

Do you have twins? Are you a twin? Do you sell 2 identical bikes for the price of one? I am an identical twin. Really.

Sandy

[e-RICHIE]

Is your question related to the steerer tube concern?



i didn't ask any question about steerer length.

[jeffg]

but I look for bikes that handle a certain way (roughly termed "stage race geometry" by some) and one thing I find lacking on most, if not all, stock bikes is a BB drop equal or greater than 7cm. I am sure Dario could/would build a fabulous descending bike with a 7cm drop, but I have been more comfortable with 7.5-8cm and that puts me in the realm of Serotta, Ritchie, Kirk, Hampsten, etc.

I realize this is only one part of the equation, but it helps me select who I want to build the bike. In general I am happy to let the builder make the decision ...

[bostondrunk]

i didn't ask any question about steerer length.

E-ritchie, yer so nice.

[Sandy]

You are too, but you just don't want anyone to know about it.


Burp,

Sandy

[e-RICHIE]

E-ritchie, yer so nice.

You are too, but you just don't want anyone to know about it.


guys/girls...
did i miss something here?

[scrooge]

curious here...
what (other) consumer good would you purchase
where you'd ask for a similar concession?

I'm assuming that was directed at me. As I said, I'm no expert (obviously), but if I understood Sandy correctly, he was saying that he's seen bikes built for older people that leave them no room to get older, less flexible etc. In other words, they fit well for the time being, but are pretty well maxed out as far as being able to raise the bars etc, which a person may want to do as they get older. I was simply saying that if this request was made to the builder, I would think it would be accomodated in some way or another--after all, it doesn't seem to me (the non expert) that there is only one position that the bars can be in--there should be room for adjustment --a person would just need to be thoughtful about what type of adjustment s/he might want to make (e.g--up) and ask the builder to keep that in mind. I guess I see it as an issue of having good communication with your builder and telling him what you want, your concerns etc. Why is that strange?

[csb]

I'm assuming that was directed at me. As I said, I'm no expert (obviously), but if I understood Sandy correctly, he was saying that he's seen bikes built for older people that leave them no room to get older, less flexible etc. In other words, they fit well for the time being, but are pretty well maxed out as far as being able to raise the bars etc, which a person may want to do as they get older. I was simply saying that if this request was made to the builder, I would think it would be accomodated in some way or another--after all, it doesn't seem to me (the non expert) that there is only one position that the bars can be in--there should be room for adjustment --a person would just need to be thoughtful about what type of adjustment s/he might want to make (e.g--up) and ask the builder to keep that in mind. I guess I see it as an issue of having good communication with your builder and telling him what you want, your concerns etc. Why is that strange?

LOOK makes an adjustable stem

[e-RICHIE]

I'm assuming that was directed at me. As I said, I'm no expert (obviously), but if I understood Sandy correctly, he was saying that he's seen bikes built for older people that leave them no room to get older, less flexible etc. In other words, they fit well for the time being, but are pretty well maxed out as far as being able to raise the bars etc, which a person may want to do as they get older. I was simply saying that if this request was made to the builder, I would think it would be accomodated in some way or another--after all, it doesn't seem to me (the non expert) that there is only one position that the bars can be in--there should be room for adjustment --a person would just need to be thoughtful about what type of adjustment s/he might want to make (e.g--up) and ask the builder to keep that in mind. I guess I see it as an issue of having good communication with your builder and telling him what you want, your concerns etc. Why is that strange?


i was just curious; i didn't use the word strange.
but i am still curious! my experience with "all this" is that
the goods will surely last the 10 years you mention but
often the attention span doesn't. folks like to buy new
things. no? that suit you wear. the slr camera from the early
90s. fill in the blank _______ . i just don't get the read
on this issue that folks purchase bicycles with a concern
that they (the rider and/or the bike) will change much in
a decade.

[Sandy]

You understand me perfectly. I actually have done the reverse, thus far. I have lowered the handlebar twice. But, Ihave the flexibility for going up, as my flexibility goes down.


Like an elevator,

Up And Down Sandy

[Sandy]

Why should you have to go that route and use a positive rise stem? What possible reason to cut the steerer tube, if not for aesthetics? For me, the flexibility for change is far more important than the look of the bike. I guess that you could always buy a new uncut fork.


Slicing Sandy

[e-RICHIE]

Why should you have to go that route and use a positive rise stem? What possible reason to cut the steerer tube, if not for aesthetics? For me, the flexibility for change is far more important than the look of the bike. I guess that you could always buy a new uncut fork.


Slicing Sandy


stoopendous situation.
it begs the question: when was the last time you
bought a bicycle frame where the fork was made
by the builder rather than forks R us?

[jerk]

if your old bike doesn't work for you buy a new one. but whatever you do, don't leave a f#ckin pommel on top of your stem. that's a rule.

jerk

[Sandy]

He must be e-RICHIE's son or brother. The jerk and e-RICHIE always seem to think alike.


Sandy

[e-RICHIE]

He must be e-RICHIE's son or brother. The jerk and e-RICHIE always seem to think alike.


Sandy


you have your rose,
we each have ours!

[jerk]

He must be e-RICHIE's son or brother. The jerk and e-RICHIE always seem to think alike.


Sandy
the jerk is e-richie's illegitimate father.

[Sandy]

stoopendous situation.
it begs the question: when was the last time you
bought a bicycle frame where the fork was made
by the builder rather than forks R us?

Never.

But what reason other than aestheics? It certainly looks better, giving a more balanced look, without a stack of spacers. I agree with that, wholeheartedly.

Think about this- If bikes always came with a stack of spacers, then if you introduced a bike without the stack, it would look strange and odd without them. Just like the "new" compact designs, compared to the more traditional with the level top tube.


Spaced out,

Spacer Sandy

[e-RICHIE]

Never.

But what reason other than aestheics? It certainly looks better, giving a more balanced look, without a stack of spacers. I agree with that, wholeheartedly.

Think about this- If bikes always came with a stack of spacers, then if you introduced a bike without the stack, it would look strange and odd without them. Just like the "new" compact designs, compared to the more traditional with the level top tube.


Spaced out,

Spacer Sandy


there's a point at which spacers are merely a stop-gap
solution; the better fix would be to add head tube, but
you can't. if the fork is too short, and the "10 year" issue
looms, why buy the unit in the first place?

[jerk]

I disagree simply because I think it is common for people to own a bike they like, and then decide they want a second (or third, or fourth, etc.) bike, and ask that it be made with the same geometry as their first. What is so strange about that?!?!
Sure, other 'things' can make a difference, the type of tubing, etc. As far as alignment, well if I own a colnago and it is aligned properly, then I order a frame from you, I am -assuming- you will align it properly, etc. That isn't to say that your frame may still feel different compared to his original frame..........................But I'm still not getting how you think it is so strange that someone could call you and say "I'D LIKE ON OF YOUR FRAMES. I LIKE THIS GEOMETRY. CAN YOU MAKE IT?".

Someone other than E-ritchie please tell me what the **** I am missing here???
Is that what Indurain did when he got a frame from Dario? He called him and said "Well Dario, you know, I like to climb and time trial a lot. Build me a bike"..............or did he call him and say "I need a bike with these measurements..........".
When senior jerk ordered his big leg emma, did he tell Dario to surprise him with the geometry, or did he give him the numbers?
Again, what the **** am I missing here? And no I'm not drunk tonight!!!! :)

the jerk told dario he wanted a bike in 1950's willier bronze; and that it would never be raced over 100km. the jerk gave him some ofs fit measurements and got a bike. the jerk knows alot but he's not a frame builder and any frame builder who would build a bike based on a customer's design spec is not a frame builder either. he/she/it is just hired out-sourced labor if you ask the jerk.

jerk

[e-RICHIE]

the jerk told dario he wanted a bike in 1950's willier bronze; and that it would never be raced over 100km. the jerk gave him some ofs fit measurements and got a bike. the jerk knows alot but he's not a frame builder and any frame builder who would build a bike based on a customer's design spec is not a frame builder either. he/she/it is just hired out-sourced labor if you ask the jerk.

jerk


that is how i ordered my nagasawa.
jerk - we should meet someday and
exchange...

[Fixed]

He must be e-RICHIE's son or brother. The jerk and e-RICHIE always seem to think alike.


Sandy
That is cos they are smarter than anyone here when it comes to bikes.cheers

[znfdl]

I can not add anything to this discussion as I still ride quill stems :rolleyes:

[Sandy]

That is cos they are smarter than anyone here when it comes to bikes.cheers

I would say that they are as smart as anyone here when it comes to bikes. However, there are others here who also know a great deal also. Sandy being excluded totally.

Stupid Sandy

[Fixed]

agreed.cheers

[dirtdigger88]

Im confused- what was the original question

Jason

[Sandy]

I wrote the original original question, and I am not sure.

Sandy

[csb]

Im confused- what was the original question

Jason

my custom builder refuses to make me what i want _ it's not fair!

do i have rights, should i call elliot spitzer or maybe 'shame on you'?

[dirtdigger88]

I wrote the original original question, and I am not sure.

Sandy
for what its worth- on my Kirk- I basicly gave Dave my distance from seat post to bar/stem, saddle height off the ground, bar height off the ground- and told him how I wanted the bike to ride-

he came back with the geometry- and I said do it-

I trust my builder to fill in the gaps for me- :D

Jason

[e-RICHIE]

my custom builder refuses to make me what i want _ it's not fair!?


wierd thread.
do you tell a doctor what to prescribe?
do you tell a tailor how to cut a pattern?
...a teacher how to teach you?

what is custom anyway?
if sandy's first example was on the mark and
he could specify angles, etcetera, then the guy
that builds it - well, jerk's reply is not far off!

[dirtdigger88]

my custom builder refuses to make me what i want _ it's not fair!

do i have rights, should i call elliot spitzer or 'shame on you'?

oh- well thats silly

I wouldnt call Enzo and tell him how to build my car- Willie Davidson refuses to take my calls about the fat boy I want- ***? e-richie why wont you build me a shimano equipted bent? Im the consumer- I want what I want and I want it now- Oh. . . there is a waiting list of people who are willing to let you do what you do best. . .Yes your right I dont like it when people tell me how to do my job either. . . ok build the d*mn bike how you see fit. . .

Jason

[victoryfactory]

Peter;

I think the point of this thread seems to be that the customer should
trust the builder to make those decisions, I may get flamed for this, but
most builders seem to have their own philosophy about bike design, and
if we assume that they know what they are doing, we need to trust their
judgement when it comes to geometry. It also seems that even the builders
who blatantly advertise the ability to do "custom" are not really anxious
for the customer to meddle in such things as front-center, BB drop, Fork rake
and other technical aspects of design, and stay with things like:
"I want my bike to ride like....."

after some experience with custom bikes, I agree with this approach.
Instead of learning all the aspects of bike design, maybe we would come out
ahead if we spent some time checking out the reputation of the builder and
talking to his customers. (go ahead you techno nerds, broil me)

VF

[bostondrunk]

Peter;

I think the point of this thread seems to be that the customer should
trust the builder to make those decisions, I may get flamed for this, but
most builders seem to have their own philosophy about bike design, and
if we assume that they know what they are doing, we need to trust their
judgement when it comes to geometry. It also seems that even the builders
who blatantly advertise the ability to do "custom" are not really anxious
for the customer to meddle in such things as front-center, BB drop, Fork rake
and other technical aspects of design, and stay with things like:
"I want my bike to ride like....."

after some experience with custom bikes, I agree with this approach.
Instead of learning all the aspects of bike design, maybe we would come out
ahead if we spent some time checking out the reputation of the builder and
talking to his customers. (go ahead you techno nerds, broil me)

VF

Well I guess it depends on the customer. Some might not like the idea of paying upwards of 3k for a steel frame and just trusting the builders judgement. Most of these custom frames have a very low resale value (compared to the original price). If he builds a bike that you end up not liking, yer stuck with a very expensive frame...
I've seen some pretty wacked geometries in the gallery here on Serotta's. Not sure how good the builder's judgement was on some of those....

[e-RICHIE]

snipped: It also seems that even the builders
who blatantly advertise the ability to do "custom" are not really anxious
for the customer to meddle...


the few that use the term custom are doing so
innocently and realize the term is quite ambiguous.
i think the word/term is a stepchild to the industry
jargon born out of the 70s bike boom.

[Roy E. Munson]

seen some pretty wacked geometries in the gallery here on Serotta's.

Will some builders get these retarded specs from a client and push back for something not so wacked, or even decline building the frame?

[e-RICHIE]

I've seen some pretty wacked geometries in the gallery here on Serotta's. Not sure how good the builder's judgement was on some of those....


was it the geometry that was wacked, or
your opinion of the "fit" characteristics?

[bostondrunk]

BTW, I'm not implying that these frame builders -aren't- able to decide on a good geometry for a customer.....I just didn't realize (until now) that they were so reluctant to let the customer specify what measurements they want.

[e-RICHIE]

Will some builders get these retarded specs from a client and push back for something not so wacked, or even decline building the frame?


in reality, and based on pm's with several other
builders on the forum, most folks really don't send
the retarded work orders that are being bandied
about in this thread. an informal survey leads
me to state comfortably that the builders collaborate
with the client on fit issues and er, pull rank, when
it comes time to blueprint the design.

[bostondrunk]

was it the geometry that was wacked, or
your opinion of the "fit" characteristics?

Well.......I dunno......would you build a frame with this geometry?

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=7297

[e-RICHIE]

Well.......I dunno......would you build a frame with this geometry?

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=7297



i don't see a geometry, i see a bicycle.
depending on my dialogue with the client,
i "might" solve the fit issue differently.

[cpg]

I would further e-Richie's logic. I see a bike and I don't see a rider. Since we're asking questions- How can you know it's whacked if you haven't seen the rider or their measurements?

Curt

[Dr. Doofus]

doof is still pissed off by the suspicion that the jerk is going out doof the doof (or is the doof trying to out jerk the jerk) by getting a really nice bike that really absolutely contradicts the design philosophy that the really flexy smart guy behind the bikes came up with....damnthejerk...this is doof's dream bike and it will still be even if it has to made made by someone else cause he can't make the two grand but thta ain't gonna happen

anyway

your flexiblity won't change much over ten years unless there is some major injury (like a blown disk) or you just stop riding your bespoke bike and get fat and stiff, in which case you're just a jackass

and a riser stem or better yet just going with a quill will solve the problem anyway

dialogue with the builder

make sure your fit isn't wack

let them do the rest

why is this so hard to grasp?????

[jerk]

I would further e-Richie's logic. I see a bike and I don't see a rider. Since we're asking questions- How can you know it's whacked if you haven't seen the rider or their measurements?

Curt

curt,
the jerk loves you but rider or no rider that bicycle is completely whacked even if we assume the contact points are "correct".
jerk

[1centaur]

I found this thread fascinating and frustrating. A frame builder has a good sense of what works and what doesn't, what ride characteristics stem from certain geometry choices, and, I hope, how their tube choices affect ride quality and performance. It must be frustrating to get a set of measurements that don't fit well with the builder's experience and know that the result will be, politely, sub-optimal.

On the other hand, some customers can build up a knowledge base from riding a lot of bikes and thinking about the characteristics they like and thereby develop a set of numbers that should work well for them. They won't know exactly how those numbers interact with the frame building technique of any given builder, but they believe that the the resulting variances will not be more important than the numbers and are willing (eager?) to live with the outcome.

I think I am an example of the latter. With my first custom I specified chainstay length for both aesthetic reasons and for the reputation of stability (happily those two went together in my needs/wants). I specified HT and ST angle to reflect what I had liked before but never had in a certain material. I specified HT length because I cared how many spacers would show. I specified BB drop becuase I wanted to see an improvement in stability from all my 7cm bikes and thought Serotta's 8cm might represent their older customer base (sorry folks). Luckily, the builder's favorite drop was 7.5, so no issues there, though I did ask for input. I specified TT length to get me in the perfect spot and with the stem length I wanted for aesthetics, and TT slope for aesthetic reasons. I specified rake to match Colnago's in my frame size - the best descending/hands-free bike I had been on. The builder is experienced and I doubted he would let me wander too far off the reservation, but really, what was I going to ask for? He built it, it was and is fantastic and exactly what I expected, and I have since had two more built by other custom makers but with a slightly steeper HT angle because I already had my century cruiser. They all work as I expected, they all fit perfectly, they are my best bikes.

One of the three builders suggested shorter chainstays. I refused - what did I care how they like their bikes to handle? If I had said I wanted a stable, great descending century bike, I ride at x mph and here are my fit points I would have received something different from each builder, I suspect, but because I dipped my toe in the water with builder 1 I now have three perfect bikes for my needs/wants. I'm sure e-richie bikes are well considered and their riders like them - I'm sure I would too if I liked steel. There's something to be said for letting a builder give you the benefit of his experience and savoring the result for what it is, but that's just not the experience I was seeking. So I guess I think both ways of doing things can work, neither way is automatically better if the customer has done his homework, and which one each of us chooses reflects our personalities as much as anything.

And not to get that teacher thread going again, but (in reference to whether one would tell a teacher how to teach, which was asked earlier in this thread) there have been a lot of teachers in the last 10 years of my son's education that needed input into teaching 101, such as "Wouldn't it be great if you handed the homework back before the test? It's called a feedback loop, and 'I was too busy to grade them' does not cut it."

[dnovo]

Okay, now that "Kotter's back" here's my spin on this:

I have custom frames built to my body measurements by the following superb frame builders, Curt G, e-Riche, Tom Kellogg, Dave Kirk, and Kelly at Serotta. I simply sent them my measurements and my one primary limitation, a crap back. I did not tell them how to build the bike, what angles to use, or anything else of the sort. Dave, Richie, and Tom worked from some very careful fit and measurements Brendan George at Alberto's did for me. He sent them off to Kelly at Serotta and I have sent them on to the other three (and to Curt through Rivendell) and each of my custom built steel frames (and my custom built Calfee Dragonfly) fit me perfectly.

If I knew how to build one of these, I'd do it myself, not trust myself to a pro. I don't tell them how to build for me any more than one of my clients tells me how to file a remand petition in federal court for improvident removal. (Explain that one to them, Kevin.)

I only have one other quibble with this thread, Curt how can you say anything about "e-Richie's logic?"

Logic? e-Richie? Oxymoron, no? (And if you ship me a banana e-Richie, I'll send you home address to the Support Bush campaign!"

Dave N. ("Kinky Friedman for Governor of Texas" Serotta Chapter Founder.)

[jerk]

Okay, now that "Kotter's back" here's my spin on this:

I have custom frames built to my body measurements by the following superb frame builders, Curt G, e-Riche, Tom Kellogg, Dave Kirk, and Kelly at Serotta. I simply sent them my measurements and my one primary limitation, a crap back. I did not tell them how to build the bike, what angles to use, or anything else of the sort. Dave, Richie, and Tom worked from some very careful fit and measurements Brendan George at Alberto's did for me. He sent them off to Kelly at Serotta and I have sent them on to the other three (and to Curt through Rivendell) and each of my custom built steel frames (and my custom built Calfee Dragonfly) fit me perfectly.

If I knew how to build one of these, I'd do it myself, not trust myself to a pro. I don't tell them how to build for me any more than one of my clients tells me how to file a remand petition in federal court for improvident removal. (Explain that one to them, Kevin.)

I only have one other quibble with this thread, Curt how can you say anything about "e-Richie's logic?"

Logic? e-Richie? Oxymoron, no? (And if you ship me a banana e-Richie, I'll send you home address to the Support Bush campaign!"

Dave N. ("Kinky Friedman for Governor of Texas" Serotta Chapter Founder.)



Well, a redneck nerd in a bowling shirt was a-guzzlin’ lone star beer
Talking religion and-uh politics for all the world to hear.
¡°they oughta send you back to russia, boy, or new york city one
You just want to doodle a christian girl and you killed god’s only son.¡±

I said, ¡°has it occurred to you, you nerd, that that’s not very nice,
We jews believe it was santa claus that killed jesus christ.¡±
¡°you know, you don’t look jewish,¡± he said, ¡°near as I could figger
I had you lamped for a slightly anemic, well-dressed country ******.¡°

No, they ain’t makin’ jews like jesus anymore,
They don’t turn the other cheek the way they done before.
He started in to shoutin’ and a-spittin’ on the floor,
¡°lord, they ain’t makin’ jews like jesus anymore.¡±

[bostondrunk]

Well, a redneck nerd in a bowling shirt was a-guzzlin’ lone star beer
Talking religion and-uh politics for all the world to hear.
¡°they oughta send you back to russia, boy, or new york city one
You just want to doodle a christian girl and you killed god’s only son.¡±

I said, ¡°has it occurred to you, you nerd, that that’s not very nice,
We jews believe it was santa claus that killed jesus christ.¡±
¡°you know, you don’t look jewish,¡± he said, ¡°near as I could figger
I had you lamped for a slightly anemic, well-dressed country ******.¡°

No, they ain’t makin’ jews like jesus anymore,
They don’t turn the other cheek the way they done before.
He started in to shoutin’ and a-spittin’ on the floor,
¡°lord, they ain’t makin’ jews like jesus anymore.¡±

Ahhh.....the jerk is hittin tha sauce again..........:)

[e-RICHIE]

Ahhh.....the jerk is hittin tha sauce again..........:)




bd
that's classic kinky
get down.

[Ray]

bd
that's classic kinky
get down.
Perhaps the ONLY truly classic Kinky. Some other good songs, but nothing that'll live on like that pup.

-Ray

[e-RICHIE]

Perhaps the ONLY truly classic Kinky. Some other good songs, but nothing that'll live on like that pup.

-Ray


not unlike frankie goes to hollywood's "relax"
or a-ha's "take on me".

[zank]

can we talk about cross now?

[e-RICHIE]

i assembled my rig 2 days ago.
after a quick trip to the boot in
italy on the 31st, i will talk cross,
live cross, and be cross until 06.

[jerk]

not unlike frankie goes to hollywood's "relax"
or a-ha's "take on me".


or "video killed the radio star"
or "hey mickey"
or most importantly for all concerned, "hot, hot, hot" by the former new york doll buster poindexter.

jerk

(and the new york dolls are as 'cross as the jerk gets.)

[e-RICHIE]

or "video killed the radio star"
or "hey mickey"
or most importantly for all concerned, "hot, hot, hot" by the former new york doll buster poindexter.

jerk

man, that was a gig for johanson...

[zank]

i assembled my rig 2 days ago.
after a quick trip to the boot in
italy on the 31st, i will talk cross,
live cross, and be cross until 06.

I am trying to decide on paint. I'm thinking a pearl orange with silver lettering and royal blue in those fancy, e-richie-issimo lug cut-outs.

My kit is all ready to be assembled onto the frame though.

Are you going to be back for Lake Pleasant?

[Grant McLean]

i assembled my rig 2 days ago.
after a quick trip to the boot in
italy on the 31st, i will talk cross,
live cross, and be cross until 06.

Speaking of cross, I was kinda cross
when I saw the typo on the #05 cross jersey
What's that "r" doing there?
It's not too late to fix it?

GM

[e-RICHIE]

I am trying to decide on paint. I'm thinking a pearl orange with silver lettering and royal blue in those fancy, e-richie-issimo lug cut-outs.

My kit is all ready to be assembled onto the frame though.

Are you going to be back for Lake Pleasant?


we start at northfield. i should be
cursing in italian by then.

[Peter]

"Thanks Peter. So, you're essentially looking for a head tube angle and fork rake that will give you the trail you want?"

I've had enough experience with bikes, knowing the front end numbers, to have a good feel for how head angle and rake affect each other. To me, head angle affects steering "quickness", while rake can tame that quickness, or at least provide some stability or calm down that quickness, as the bike's speed rises.

I don't have enough experience to substantiate this next claim, but I suspect that there is a particular trail number or range (i.e., 55-57mm of trail, say) that is ideal. I suspect that as the head tube angle increases, trail may need to increase to keep the bike reasonably easy to handle as speed rises.

Individual riding style will affect these choices as well. A rider with faster reflexes who also enjoys criteriums may prefer a faster handling front end.

Perhaps you can see why it's so important to know the specs of the bike you're currently on, as well as another bike (hopefully with different specs) you are able to ride, to experience how these differences manifest themselves. Even comparing say, your road bike to your mountain bike, can give you an better understanding of front end geometry

Ever wonder why mountain bikes have slacker head angles, and higher trail figures than road bikes? It's because the forces of hitting rocks, roots, and other trail features would cause a road bike front end to wander like a teenager with ADHD drinking a liter of Jolt. The shallower head angle is more forgiving of quick steering input (the bike doesn't deviate from it's line as much when the bars are turned), and the higher trail figures tell you that the bike will tend to stay in a straight line even though it's hitting all those trail obstacles. Your steeper head angled, less trailed bike would be in the trees long after the mountain bike had disappeared down the trail.


One last example: I have found from experience, for instance, that a 73 degree/45mm rake combination works very well for me. I had another bike built with a 73/50 combination. It was like it was on caffeine, but it was still rideable, and fun handling. However, once I threw my commuter panniers on it, riding no-hands was all but impossible. I learned through experience. I'd love to see what a 73/40 combination feels like-if it resists changing lines TOO much.

[Sandy]

I am sure that your existing understanding of trail, head tube angles, stability, quickness, of handling,.... took you many years and bikes to reach. What some are saying in this thread is to leave those decisions up to the master builder, the guy who has been doing it on a daily basis for years, say an e-RICHIE or Tom Kellogg or Kelly Bedford or Serotta Sandy (kidding about that nut),....The procedure is to tell them a little about yourself, the ride characteristics that you desire, your saddle height, bar reach, and saddle set back and then step away and let the master builder do the rest. Leave the angles, trail/rake,... up to the guy you chose to build your bike. Of course, you might need some help in determining saddle height, saddle setback, and bar reach if you are not real experienced.

I guess that the theory is that there are 3 points of contact with your body and the cyclist- feet on the pedals, hands on the handlebar, and butt on the saddle, so give data for those 3 points of contact and let the guy you trust to build your bike do the rest. Actually, that makes a lot of sense to me. Not flawess logic, but sensible, anyway.

Sensible Sandy

[shinomaster]

I wonder about this same question Sandy. One reason I am reluctant to have a new custom bike built is because I'm not even sure about who should fit me. I went to Serotta fit Guru Sylvester and everyone said he was on crack for telling me I need a 60 cm top tube with a 54cm seat tube. People in Portland tell me he is a con-artist. Is the Serotta fit system a hoax?
Then suppose he is correct, and he very well may be, who would best build such a crazy bike? Vanilla, Serotta, Comotion? Hampsten....How differently would these bikes ride? Which would corner or descend better? Is there a formula to follow to build a bike with such a long top tube?

Help me Obi Wan...

[keno]

In January, 2004 I went to Tom Kellogg for a steel bike. He watched me on his trainer with my Concours, hands normal, on tops, on hoods, in drops, and kept moving me through those positions. Did that for about 30 minutes until he was satisfied that he had understood me on the bike and what he believed I needed.

Then I told him that developing my riding was key to me (a relatively new rider with a relatively short shelf life), that I wanted to be able to be in a position both enabling me to generate more power and comfortable enough for me to want to do it, and maybe a little more about what I like and do not.

He asked me how long I wanted the bike to last in the design sense, as the expectation was that as I developed the frame would become inadequate at some point. I told him 3 years.

I gave him the simple instruction to the effect that he should build me a bike imagining that he was me but with all of his experience as a frame builder. Out came a lovely bike 60/56 originally with an 11cm stem that has provided me with thousands of miles of enjoyment and development. Well, a mere 18 months later I had a 13cm stem on it and, even with that, the bike had been outgrown. All of the riding and pilates and attention to technique had kicked in. I can't seriously be upset about being way ahead of schedule.

The Ottrott built for me in early June is a 60/59.5 with a 12cm stem and fits great. I can ride the steel Spectrum and enjoy it, but I simply cannot use myself as athletically as I can on the Ottrott. I am a different rider than I was only 18 months ago. fly, csb and Smiley can attest to that (but would probably take much greater pleasure in saying that I was crazier than even I know myself to be).

RS, I am not sure what you intended with your "10-year" comment made many pages back in this thread. Is it relevant here?

Sandy, forks are cheap enough not to worry about tomorrow. Ride for today. Something will happen that is bound to change everything anyway.

keno

[e-RICHIE]

RS, I am not sure what you intended with your "10-year" comment made many pages back in this thread. Is it relevant here?

yes.
why? because i was replying to two other posts
along the way, pasted below for clarity.
you saw those?
e-RICHIE©™®
ps
didn't you call me up about that 11cm
stem deal way back when?!



post #48: (fr scrooge)
Not that I'm an expert, but I think it's because people are stupid (some people, at least--noone here). To put it a more gentle way--they're short sighted. I would think that had the folks in question said to there builder, "I want to be riding this thing in ten years, leave me room to grow," they would've gotten that. But they probably didn't.
post #37: (fr sandy)
What I don't understand is why so many bicycles are produced with the steerer tube cut, with no flexibility for a potential desire to raise the handlebar because of aging and/or injury and/or lack of flexibility for whatever reason.

[Sandy]

Intersting read about your evolution as a cyclist.


Sandy

[keno]

re: 11 stem, honestly don't recall

re: 10 years, glacial (RS, in your view did I make some kind of concession to TK by answering his question; recall, he asked me)

re: steerer tube, I'm more inclined to think about improvement than decrepit

keno

[e-RICHIE]

re: 11 stem, honestly don't recall
keno


yup. when you bought the saddle, you asked
about the configuration of the new ride and
i said the 11cm was too short for the other
specs you supplied.

[keno]

I don't save messages that far back. Insofar as the saddle I bought from you, I'm guessing that that was two bikes ago (not counting track bikes), about summer of 2003.

I have the spreadsheet for the bike, but I didn't get into stem issues until last year as best I recall.

keno

[e-RICHIE]

I don't save messages that far back. Insofar as the saddle I bought from you, I'm guessing that that was two bikes ago (not counting track bikes), about summer of 2003.

I have the spreadsheet for the bike, but I didn't get into stem issues until last year as best I recall.

keno


well i'm glad it ended as a 13cm.
ps i save your emails for 1 year.

[keno]

problem would have been back then that I couldn't use a 12 or 13 with that TT, so it would have to have been shorter. That would have decreased the useful life of the frame even more.

I'll go with the Bard. All's well that ends well.

keno

[e-RICHIE]

problem would have been back then that I couldn't use a 12 or 13 with that TT, so it would have to have been shorter. That would have decreased the useful life of the frame even more.

I'll go with the Bard. All's well that ends well.

keno

bard is an offensive word to me because i
got shortlisted there and then rejected. i
really want to matriculate at red hook.
bananas.

but, agreed that all ends well.

[keno]

I have it on excellent information, in this case the wife, who spent a year at Bard, that the drugs were excellent and that Chevy Chase was very funny. Sorry that you missed out on very highly self-destructive possibilities.

keno

[fiamme red]

bard is an offensive word to me because i
got shortlisted there and then rejected. i
really want to matriculate at red hook."Why would anyone want to go to Red Hook?"
--Thomas Wolfe, "Only the Dead Know Brooklyn"

[Sandy]

Wise one- Did you notice that when you typed RS in the title that it came out as Rs? It always happens that way. Do you know why, wise one? I need to know.


Sm

[e-RICHIE]

I have it on excellent information, in this case the wife, who spent a year at Bard, that the drugs were excellent and that Chevy Chase was very funny. Sorry that you missed out on very highly self-destructive possibilities.

keno


it was the drugs that appealed to me. i'm not quite
chevy's age so had to settle for his snl antics. i rebounded
with goddard and then with southeast london.

[csb]

steely dan man

tho mine is known for the talking heads

[e-RICHIE]

steely dan man

tho mine is known for the talking heads

david mamet?

[csb]

david mamet?

non, byrning down the house

[keno]

this ain't no disco! This is a bikeco.

keno

[csb]

this ain't no disco! This is a bikeco.

keno

eye kant help it _ they took my cigarettes and now i'm @ the river

[Dr. Doofus]

air can hurt you,

too

[csb]

air can hurt you


so our man climbo tells

[Dr. Doofus]

so our man climbo tells


break, break like the wind