Paypal changes

[Lifecycle]

Not sure if this is ok to post here, if not please delete



I am wondering why the federal government is requiring Paypal to ask for my SS #,or any of my financial statements, or my my Bank account # ??????

The begining of the END ???

Effective Date: April 1, 2012

Section 2.3 of the User Agreement (Identity Authentication) is being amended because we are making changes to our customer identification program as a result of changes in the law. Section 2.3 will now read:

2.3 Identity Authentication. You authorize PayPal, directly or through third parties, to make any inquiries we consider necessary to validate your identity. This may include asking you for further information, requiring you to provide your date of birth, a taxpayer identification number and other information that will allow us to reasonably identify you, requiring you to take steps to confirm ownership of your email address or financial instruments, ordering a credit report, or verifying your Information against third party databases or through other sources. We may also ask to see your driver’s license or other identifying documents at any time. If you use certain PayPal Services federal law requires that PayPal verify some of your Information. PayPal reserves the right to close, suspend, or limit access to your Account and/or the PayPal Services in the event we are unable to obtain or verify this Information.

[nighthawk]

If Paypal asks me for any of that information I would promptly empty my account, and cancel it.

A copy of my license? HA! get real.

Anyone have any suggestions for alternative means? I guess there's always checks and money orders.

[tsarpepe]

I guess there's always checks and money orders.

Not if you want to buy and sell on ebay.

[singlecross]

Call me old school but there's always US Postal Money Orders... we can save the Post Office! I'm there anyway to ship most of the stuff I sell. There are monetary limits to US Postal Money Orders so kind of a pain for larger purchases of several hundred $$$, but you can get multiple Money Orders.

singlecross

[jr59]

Call me old school but there's always US Postal Money Orders... we can save the Post Office! I'm there anyway to ship most of the stuff I sell. There are monetary limits to US Postal Money Orders so kind of a pain for larger purchases of several hundred $$$, but you can get multiple Money Orders.

singlecross


This^^

I have refused to buy or sell anything on ebay or use PP for at least 10 years.
It has proven to me that they offer no protection what so ever.
I lost a LOT of money thru both of them. I spent over 7,000 dollars on attorney bills trying to recover my money to no avail.

I use USPS money orders for all my buying needs. Those ans express mail are safe and reasonable. Plus, the seller can cash them @ the post office right away. No waiting for a check to clear. They work very well.

[nighthawk]

Not if you want to buy and sell on ebay.

I've just about had it with the many ways ebay hoses you on auctions, anyways.

They take a percentage of what you charge the customer for postage. Eff that.

[woolly]

Is this real? How did you receive this communication - through an email or from some message after you had directly logged in to your account? I'm a fairly regular PayPal user, and this is the first I've seen or heard of it.

Also, that effective date looks a little, um, "coincidental".

[nighthawk]

Is this real? How did you receive this communication - through an email or from some message after you had directly logged in to your account? I'm a fairly regular PayPal user, and this is the first I've seen or heard of it.

Also, that effective date looks a little, um, "coincidental".

Interesting. Yeah, I wonder if it's the first part of someone trying to scam personal information. Wouldn't be surprised.

[tele]

I have started using Dwolla and it only costs 25c for transactions. Once your Acct is set up it is easy, similar to PP but without the big brother or fees.

[yngpunk]

Is this real? How did you receive this communication - through an email or from some message after you had directly logged in to your account? I'm a fairly regular PayPal user, and this is the first I've seen or heard of it.

Also, that effective date looks a little, um, "coincidental".

You should have received an email from PayPal saying the following:

"PayPal recently posted a new Policy Update. You can view this Policy Update by logging in to your PayPal account. To log in to your account, go to https://www.paypal.com and enter your member log in information. Once you are logged in, look at the Notifications section on the top right side of the page for the latest Policy Updates.

If you need help logging in, go to our Help Center by clicking the Help link located in the upper right-hand corner of any PayPal page.

Sincerely,

PayPal"

I suspect that most people don't bother to read these Policy Updates so probably a nice way for PayPal to slip it in under the radar...

[AngryScientist]

Is this real? How did you receive this communication - through an email or from some message after you had directly logged in to your account? I'm a fairly regular PayPal user, and this is the first I've seen or heard of it.

Also, that effective date looks a little, um, "coincidental".

edit: just checked the notifications section of PP, sure enough, the OP statement is there. blast.

[Vinci]

Swell. I wasn't looking forward to moving to a new service, but this is too much to stick around for. Dwolla gets another new account.

[LouDeeter]

This is all about taxes. The Feds are cracking down on the black market transactions. All the Feds have to do is hit a few keystrokes with your ssan and they can see all your banking and credit card transactions at a glance. Then, they can determine whether you have activity that hasn't been reported. The new Schedule D with supporting Form 8949 also has a new requirement to list sales of property with & without solid cost basis. For example, let's say you buy a bike for $1000 on the forum. You then sell it two years later for $800. You have a loss, which is supposed to be reported on 8949, but you can't take the loss on your taxes. But, if you sell it for $1200, you have a profit and will be taxed on the gain. The issue comes in with regard to the cost basis. If you changed the bike by upgrading parts, replacing tires, etc, you have changed the cost basis but most of us don't keep such detailed records. This is a murky area as there is also coverage of "hobby activities", where you don't have to report the details (that I can see) if you didn't make a profit. And, the profit would be reported for a hobby as "other income", not capital gains.

[Wilkinson4]

Son of a b**ch. I haven't done the Postal MO thing for ebay in 10 yrs. Might have to start again. Damn the tax man.

mIKE

[Jeff N.]

Selling anything on Ebay, for me, is a last resort thing these days.

[tuxbailey]

Well, I don't really use paypal that often. So I might need to cancel my account.

BTW, they already have my bank account and CC info anyway, why would they need additional info?

[mister]

this change most likely has to do with IRS wanting to take a closer look at ebay sales.
doubt the IRS is gonna bother anyone over a few hundred or maybe even thousand dollars of profit from hobby activities, but there are many people that make a living selling crap on ebay.

[jonnyBgood]

Everything I have bought on the Forum has been either a money order or chashiers check.

I have only had one person not sell me something because they didn't want to wait for the check...I don't know why but that's fine.

I refuse to pay all the add-on costs from PayPal. I bought a high dollar item a few years back and got taken and I will never use it again.

[stormyClouds]

Weird coincidence - as I am reading this thread I get an email notification and it is the policy change note from PP.
Think that I will check out Dwolla, too.

[Lifecycle]

This^^



I use USPS money orders for all my buying needs. Those ans express mail are safe and reasonable. Plus, the seller can cash them @ the post office right away. No waiting for a check to clear. They work very well.




I like that idea ..
no waiting on a check to clear +++

[tsarpepe]

Welcome to Dwolla, but keep in mind this: when it becomes a serious player, it will be slapped with the very same reporting responsibilities.

[zap]

This is all about taxes. The Feds are cracking down on the black market transactions. All the Feds have to do is hit a few keystrokes with your ssan and they can see all your banking and credit card transactions at a glance. Then, they can determine whether you have activity that hasn't been reported. The new Schedule D with supporting Form 8949 also has a new requirement to list sales of property with & without solid cost basis. For example, let's say you buy a bike for $1000 on the forum. You then sell it two years later for $800. You have a loss, which is supposed to be reported on 8949, but you can't take the loss on your taxes. But, if you sell it for $1200, you have a profit and will be taxed on the gain. The issue comes in with regard to the cost basis. If you changed the bike by upgrading parts, replacing tires, etc, you have changed the cost basis but most of us don't keep such detailed records. This is a murky area as there is also coverage of "hobby activities", where you don't have to report the details (that I can see) if you didn't make a profit. And, the profit would be reported for a hobby as "other income", not capital gains.

No, the requirement only holds true for investments (including collectables such as coins), real estate and reported depreciated items. There is confusion on the web but if your read the draft copy of 8949 instructions it's pretty clear. Same as prior years but the IRS has stepped up consolidating reporting information.

The fed requirements are for annual transaction that total US$20,000 (or more) and 200 (or more) sales transactions. This is not just about ebay-it's all money handlers. If you are no where close then you do not need to supply ss and such to ebay.

[nm87710]

:(

[Dave B]

The date this begins is April 1st. Fools Day!

Don't suppose it is them doing an awesome prank do you?

I know everyone at paypal is fined for having a sense of humor until they go through the operation to remove it, but you never know.

[thwart]

PP is only the first to add the ssn requirement. Competitors will follow as it's a taxation and money laundering issue for the feds. As said earlier it's all about reporting taxable income and closing the under-the-table ebay business loophole. Plus, PP accounts have become defacto depository banking accounts but are not subject to fed depository regulation(i.e. large currency transaction reporting) and thus provide a semi-loophole for illegal/money laundering activity. Right now one can sell stolen goods on ebay, deposit the sale amt in PP and use a PP debit card to access the cash without ever touching the fed banking system. As far as ebay sales I believe the threshold for ebay/PP to report sales to the feds will be $20K total. So really only an issue for people operating a regular ebay business - or trying to convert stolen goods into unreported cash.

This.

Although maybe a good idea to keep track of major (> $100) bike transactions so you can offset gains (wow, made $400 on that frame) with losses (whoops, lost $200 on that one), if the tax accounting ever gets that detailed.

[CunegoFan]

All moneys must be reported, comrades, to make sure you are not a terrorist or, even worse, a drug dealer.

[Ahneida Ride]

Big Brother Knows best ....

Soon there will be no frn just frd (fed reserve digits) all dispatched thru
your cell phone, which can not be turned off.

There will be a record of everything you have ever done. Everything !

[firerescuefin]

All moneys must be reported, comrades, to make sure you are not a terrorist or, even worse, a drug dealer.

I am glad to see some levity added to this post. Paypal is a financial institution. My bank has all the information that they are requesting. I understand the desire not to give it to them, but it is what it is. As others have mentioned the loopholes with other services will soon be closed. I recently sold 2 higher end items on Ebay..and was shocked at what I had to pay via e-bay/paypal fees. After 13 years of selling on E-bay, I am tapping out as a seller.

[Dave B]

I am glad to see some levity added to this post. Paypal is a financial institution. My bank has all the information that they are requesting. I understand the desire not to give it to them, but it is what it is. As others have mentioned the loopholes with other services will soon be closed. I recently sold 2 higher end items on Ebay..and was shocked at what I had to pay via e-bay/paypal fees. After 13 years of selling on E-bay, I am tapping out as a seller.


Agreed.

However, paypal is one of the only ways to pay ebay as they own paypal. I wonder how many people will drop and if it will be significant enough to change policies again.

[Ramjm_2000]

eBay Has definatetly become my last option when selling these days as well. Has anyone successfully used dwolla when selling on eBay?

[67-59]

As others have said, this is a US tax issue more than a PP issue. And if/when services like Dwolla grow, they'll likely need to collect and report the same info. As a matter of fact, Dwolla will likely increase its fees, etc if/when it ever becomes a sufficiently significant player to do so.

My concern with Dwolla (like PP) is that it apparently only works if the other party has an account...and most people still don't have them. So sure, I could switch to Dwolla as my new electronic means of payment...but it might not be very useful until large numbers of other people have done so as well...which might in turn coincide with PP-like fees and data collection requirements.

My bottom line: I'll probably just keep using PP, because I don't use it a lot, I don't keep loads of frns in my account, and I use it more for buying than selling anyway (so less info of interest to the IRS).

[steampunk]

I recently sold 2 higher end items on Ebay..and was shocked at what I had to pay via e-bay/paypal fees. After 13 years of selling on E-bay, I am tapping out as a seller.

same. i sold something for $60 and the eBay listing, final value, and shipping fees were ridiculous, then don't forget the PayPal fee on top of that.

and i buy from a seller on eBay only if they accept other payment options aside from PP.

[Ken Robb]

same. i sold something for $60 and the eBay listing, final value, and shipping fees were ridiculous, then don't forget the PayPal fee on top of that.

and i buy from a seller on eBay only if they accept other payment options aside from PP.

Can we still pay any way BUT PP on eBay?

[CunegoFan]

Can we still pay any way BUT PP on eBay?
Shady, but...it seems to me that a huge number of the sellers are brick and morter shops that can take credit cards. I bet if you contact them, many would sell direct to you. If you are familiar with the ebay fees then you could split the fees between you and the shop. You get a cheaper price than if you had bought through eBay and the seller gets more money than if he had sold through eBay.

[firerescuefin]

Shady, but...it seems to me that a huge number of the sellers are brick and morter shops that can take credit cards. I bet if you contact them, many would sell direct to you. If you are familiar with the ebay fees then you could split the fees between you and the shop. You get a cheaper price than if you had bought through eBay and the seller gets more money than if he had sold through eBay.

I have done this with multiple power sellers. They are VERY happy to do business outside of e-bay...most with reduced prices.

[Bob Loblaw]

They list a few options on there terms pages, not sure how the others work. They appear to be mostly for merchants.

PayPal currently has over a hundred dollars of my money frozen in limbo. They then looted $5 in seller fees from my bank account. Repeated phone calls have enabled me to work my way up the food chain to the middle management level of escalation so multiple people got the chance tIo politely but firmly tell me to shove it. PayBay appears to feel it is large enough to do whatever it pleases.

I too am done with PayBay.

BL

Can we still pay any way BUT PP on eBay?

[GuyGadois]

This may or may not have to do with AML. If you work in the financial industry you know how tight things are getting with Anti Money Laundering. Turns out that terrorist Money movements are hidden in much smaller transfers of money and PP seems like a very easy way for the bad guys to transfer and get the money back into circulation without turning too many heads. AML is tightening up all over our industry.

GG

[noonan1970]

I got an email early this morning on Policy Updates. Is this what your talking about? I forwarded it to Spoof@paypal.com and they emailed me back with this......

Hello Tim Noonan,

Thanks for forwarding that suspicious-looking email. You're right - it
was a phishing attempt, and we're working on stopping the fraud. By
reporting the problem, you've made a difference!

Identity thieves try to trick you into revealing your password or other
personal information through phishing emails and fake websites. To learn
more about online safety, click "Security Center" on any PayPal webpage.


Every email counts. When you forward suspicious-looking emails to
spoof@paypal.com, you help keep yourself and others safe from identity
theft.

Your account security is very important to us, so we appreciate your
extra effort.

Thanks,

PayPal

[retrogrouchy]

I like that idea ..
no waiting on a check to clear +++

But Postal M.O. s are now commonly forged....

[jr59]

But Postal M.O. s are now commonly forged....


If you cash them at the post office, how can they come back to you?

Any post office will gladly cash them! So why should you worry about anything not being as it should be?

When I buy something on the forum, I use USPS money orders, I just tell the seller to box up what I am buying, go to the post office cash money order, then send product.

Seems simple to me.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

+1. If Paypal asks me for any of that information I would promptly empty my account, and cancel it.

A copy of my license? HA! get real.

Anyone have any suggestions for alternative means? I guess there's always checks and money orders.

[ultraman6970]

I have not recieved a single email from paypal in a while. The other situation is that I'm verified with paypal since about 10 years ago but that doesnt mean that much.

As for the money orders and stuff isnt easier just use a green dot card and add the money in that card and then use that card to load your paypal account when paying for an item?

If you are selling pretty much u have to be verified or you wont be able to move the money off the account to your bank account.

Sadly doubt they will come with a new card to use inside of paypal to transfer money in and out to that card and that could be used as a debit card in the ATM for example.

[yngpunk]

I got an email early this morning on Policy Updates. Is this what your talking about? I forwarded it to Spoof@paypal.com and they emailed me back with this......

Hello Tim Noonan,

Thanks for forwarding that suspicious-looking email. You're right - it
was a phishing attempt, and we're working on stopping the fraud. By
reporting the problem, you've made a difference!

Identity thieves try to trick you into revealing your password or other
personal information through phishing emails and fake websites. To learn
more about online safety, click "Security Center" on any PayPal webpage.


Every email counts. When you forward suspicious-looking emails to
spoof@paypal.com, you help keep yourself and others safe from identity
theft.

Your account security is very important to us, so we appreciate your
extra effort.

Thanks,

PayPal


That's messed up (on Paypal's side)...seems like they just sent you a form letter without even looking at the contents of your email. If you log into your paypal account directly (by typing in the url), the policy update is located where the email claims it to be).

[Lifecycle]

That's messed up (on Paypal's side)...seems like they just sent you a form letter without even looking at the contents of your email. If you log into your paypal account directly (by typing in the url), the policy update is located where the email claims it to be).



That's what I did and these were the things I read

Very disturbing either way

[woolly]

That's messed up (on Paypal's side)...seems like they just sent you a form letter without even looking at the contents of your email. If you log into your paypal account directly (by typing in the url), the policy update is located where the email claims it to be).


Just because there was factual content in the email doesn't mean it wasn't a phishing attempt. The better ones probably do have this to increase the illusion of credibility.

I thought about this a bit more, and it reminded me of last fall when our baseball team was doing well in the playoffs. A good friend of mine owns several season tickets, and after selling many on StubHub (some for pretty big bucks), he was legitimately contacted by them to obtain more tax-related ID information.

So, I'd say there may be more than one thing going on here, and the ID stuff certainly isn't limited to just PayPal. But as others have stated, if you're just a casual hobby-user & not getting near the $20K mark annually, this probably means little to you (at least right now).

[neiltron]

Have you heard of Bitcoin (http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/11/mf_bitcoin/all/1)? It's a pseudonymous digital currency that's all the rage with the libertarians/nerds. Well, not really all the rage. But an interesting experiment, and the Wired article is quite good.

[victoryfactory]

I use USPS money orders for all my buying needs. Those ans express mail are safe and reasonable. Plus, the seller can cash them @ the post office right away. No waiting for a check to clear. They work very well.

Money orders and bank checks are regularly counterfeited.
You deposit it and hear from your bank 1-2 weeks later
with the bad news.
We must remember that when we buy and sell or trade
stuff like this without paying tax we are participating in the underground economy.
Nobody wants to pay tax on these transactions but in an
increasingly bad economy we will see the tax man trying
much harder to collect his cut from every transaction.
Have you noticed the place in income tax programs now where they ask if you have
purchased anything mail order? They want us to confess and pay the taxes.

For example, a NY state company is required to collect sales tax on every
sale in the state and remit them to the State govt.
Up until recently, when out of state sales were very small, collecting taxes for
out of state sales and remitting to each separate state was not done.
It was considered too complex for the small amount of money involved. Not any more.
Slowly but surely every state will want every penny of tax for every sale.
Amazon, for one has been fighting this battle for years.
Eventually they will lose, I think, and mail order sellers will be required to
collect and remit taxes for all sales in all 50 states and then file income taxes
in every state every year! That's right, 50 tax returns!

This PayPal change sounds to me like they are positioning themselves for
the future of 50 state sales tax collection.


VF

[jr59]

Money orders and bank checks are regularly counterfeited.
You deposit it and hear from your bank 1-2 weeks later
with the bad news.
We must remember that when we buy and sell or trade
stuff like this we are participating in the underground economy.
Nobody wants to pay tax on these transactions but in an
increasingly bad economy we will see the tax man trying
much harder to collect his cut from every transaction.

VF

Not quite so; Well maybe a little.

It's very easy to go to the post Office and cash USPS money orders! They have a way to check if these are correct or not!
So depositing them in your bank, maybe. Cashing them at the Post Office, no worries!

[dave thompson]

Not quite so; Well maybe a little.

It's very easy to go to the post Office and cash USPS money orders! They have a way to check if these are correct or not!
So depositing them in your bank, maybe. Cashing them at the Post Office, no worries!
A Post Office may or may not cash the money order. Whether they do or not is at their discretion and whether or not they have the requisite amount of cash on hand.

If there is any doubt as to the authenticity of the money order, the Post Office will seize the money order on the spot, period.

[tiretrax]

We must remember that when we buy and sell or trade
stuff like this without paying tax we are participating in the underground economy.
Nobody wants to pay tax on these transactions but in an
increasingly bad economy we will see the tax man trying
much harder to collect his cut from every transaction.
VF

Person to person sales of used merchandise bought for personal use are not subject to sales tax in most jurisdictions. A resale shop would have to charge sales tax, but a garage sale would't require collection of sales tax.

Personal property is not subject to a capital gain. If you bought something for an investment, then it would be.

[tiretrax]

We must remember that when we buy and sell or trade
stuff like this without paying tax we are participating in the underground economy.
Nobody wants to pay tax on these transactions but in an
increasingly bad economy we will see the tax man trying
much harder to collect his cut from every transaction.
VF

Person to person sales of used merchandise bought for personal use are not subject to sales tax in most jurisdictions. A resale shop would have to charge sales tax, but a garage sale would't require collection of sales tax.

Personal property is not subject to a capital gain. If you bought something for an investment, then it would be.

Paypal sux - I've posted my complaints several times - they've got my cc info. They don't need more. The money transfer thing is a ruse. Western Union and the Post Office don't require it.

[roydyates]

PP is only the first to add the ssn requirement. Competitors will follow as it's a taxation and money laundering issue for the feds. As said earlier it's all about reporting taxable income and closing the under-the-table ebay business loophole. Plus, PP accounts have become defacto depository banking accounts but are not subject to fed depository regulation(i.e. large currency transaction reporting) and thus provide a semi-loophole for illegal/money laundering activity. Right now one can sell stolen goods on ebay, deposit the sale amt in PP and use a PP debit card to access the cash without ever touching the fed banking system. As far as ebay sales I believe the threshold for ebay/PP to report sales to the feds will be $20K total. So really only an issue for people operating a regular ebay business - or trying to convert stolen goods into unreported cash.
+1
These are are standard "Know your customer" requirements for banks. As nm87710 observes, paypal was providing banking services without the same reporting requirements.

[steampunk]

Can we still pay any way BUT PP on eBay?

yes, some sellers are brick-and-mortar operations and can process a CC payment directly. i make it a point to tell the seller i choose the non-PP method because i don't support PP's monopolistic and predatory practices.

[deanster]

Not sure if this is ok to post here, if not please delete



I am wondering why the federal government is requiring Paypal to ask for my SS #,or any of my financial statements, or my my Bank account # ??????

The begining of the END ???

Effective Date: April 1, 2012

Section 2.3 of the User Agreement (Identity Authentication) is being amended because we are making changes to our customer identification program as a result of changes in the law. Section 2.3 will now read:

2.3 Identity Authentication. You authorize PayPal, directly or through third parties, to make any inquiries we consider necessary to validate your identity. This may include asking you for further information, requiring you to provide your date of birth, a taxpayer identification number and other information that will allow us to reasonably identify you, requiring you to take steps to confirm ownership of your email address or financial instruments, ordering a credit report, or verifying your Information against third party databases or through other sources. We may also ask to see your driver’s license or other identifying documents at any time. If you use certain PayPal Services federal law requires that PayPal verify some of your Information. PayPal reserves the right to close, suspend, or limit access to your Account and/or the PayPal Services in the event we are unable to obtain or verify this Information.

It sounds like it is trying to go after money laundering and fraud. Criminals are very devious. However, I am with you request and I am gone. PayPal is begining to charge more and more for their service. Like eBay now charging a fee on the Total amount paid to seller as in Shipping charges...Taxation without representation, indeed!