o.t. boxing

[Fixed]

anyone remember what it was like when it was a big time sport
think howard cosell
30 years ago most people could name a half dozen fighters
not so much now . i remember world champion fights on t.v. midweek at prime-time it was very popular ..
maybe with people living longer now we don't like seeing what can happen to our beloved aging champs.
say what you will they ( old fights ) were exciting to watch. imho
cheers

[learningtoride]

...

[cfox]

pay-per-view killed interest in the sport

[fiamme red]

pay-per-view killed interest in the sportThere was also the alphabet soup of governing bodies and titles. And the absence of an interesting heavyweight division after Mike Tyson lost the title.

[Fixed]

sugar ray 2 was like a samurai
he was it seems a gentleman outside the ring, in the ring an example of a great athlete standing on hundreds of years of training and Tradition .

imho
cheers

[FlashUNC]

Sugar Ray, like a lot of pro athletes, carefully cultivated that "nice guy" image.

http://m.deadspin.com/5809475/learning-to-hate-sugar-ray-leonard-all-over-again

He was anything but.

Boxing is on the wane given the corrupt governing bodies, boring fighters and frightening long term health implications.

[gdw]

Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Leonard... the middleweight fights in the 80's were classic.

[Earl Gray]

Watch "On Freddie Roach".

Great HBO show following a great trainer.

[Spin71]

pay-per-view killed interest in the sport

Tell that to MMA. The didn't seem to get the memo.

[Spin71]

There was also the alphabet soup of governing bodies and titles. And the absence of an interesting heavyweight division after Mike Tyson lost the title.

We have a winner!

[CunegoFan]

I stopped following boxing about ten years ago. Even in the mid 90s there was a marked reduction in the depth of talent in each weight division. For a brief time De La Hoya, Mosley, Vargas, Trinidad, etc. kept the sport real, but the rest of boxing had pretty much become a joke.

The worst was watching Roy "No Stones" Jones beat up a pathetic parade of part-time fighters while HBO praised him as the best fighter in the world. He was getting $4M per fight minus whatever the other fighter was paid, so it was in his best interest to find the bum who would take the least amount of money. He fought a full-time fireman. I think he fought a policeman. He may have even fought a garbageman at one point. When he finally fought someone with modest skills, it turned out he had a glass jaw.

Don't get me started on Lummox Lewis and the decline of the heavyweight div. It's just sad.

[biker72]

Down Goes Frazier! Down Goes Frazier! Down Goes Frazier!
The Ali-Frazier fights were epic.

[cfox]

Tell that to MMA. The didn't seem to get the memo.
Pay-per-view boxing started when LOTS of people didn't have cable. Boxing wasn't wrong, just (way too) early.

[tiretrax]

I stopped following boxing about ten years ago. Even in the mid 90s there was a marked reduction in the depth of talent in each weight division. For a brief time De La Hoya, Mosley, Vargas, Trinidad, etc. kept the sport real, but the rest of boxing had pretty much become a joke.

The worst was watching Roy "No Stones" Jones beat up a pathetic parade of part-time fighters while HBO praised him as the best fighter in the world. He was getting $4M per fight minus whatever the other fighter was paid, so it was in his best interest to find the bum who would take the least amount of money. He fought a full-time fireman. I think he fought a policeman. He may have even fought a garbageman at one point. When he finally fought someone with modest skills, it turned out he had a glass jaw.

Don't get me started on Lummox Lewis and the decline of the heavyweight div. It's just sad.
Good analysis. There's also too much competition out there and few personalities as interesting as those of the prominent fighters in the 70's and 80's.

[67-59]

No mas.

[Bruce K]

I've got 2 words for you:

Mickey Ward

BK

[Hawker]

Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Leonard... the middleweight fights in the 80's were classic.

++1

[swPArider]

it's a shame that boxing is totally dead now. even just a few years back there were some decent fighters out there and every now and then there would be a good fight. not any more, every division out there is a joke.

[Wilkinson4]

Don King and too many dang divisions ruined it imo. And I agree about the talent deficit. And, might as well give a nod to MMA and that kinda of stuff because that has pretty much taken its place.

mIKE

[FlashUNC]

The fact the two best fighters out there these days seem unable to find a way to fight each other tells you everything you need to know about the state of the sport.

[killacks]

second boxing thread I've come across today. The First... (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=104776)

[Fixed]

that thread got me thinking about the great fights i had seen in my youth
cheers :beer:

[CunegoFan]

I've got 2 words for you:

Mickey Ward


Retired almost ten years ago. If not for the money he should have retired before the Gatti fights. At least he was smart enough to retire after that. Gatti, not so much.

[Bruce K]

All true but those Gatti wars were EPIC.

There were none tougher than Mickey Ward or with more heart.

BK

[Louis]

I can't get terribly nostalgic about the decline of a sport that is at its core a brutal occupation. Yes, it provides opportunities for a tiny number of guys (and increasingly gals), but even so, it was not able to keep Mike Tyson out of jail, merely delay the inevitable. And watching two guys pound the cr@p out of each other, no matter how "valiant" or "heroic" some might think they are, isn't my idea of entertainment. The only somewhat redeeming thing about it is that the combatants are perhaps there of their own free will. You can't say that about cock fights or dog fights.

Bottom line for me, it probably does more harm than good.

[rwsaunders]

We still have hockey.....

[CunegoFan]

We still have hockey.....
Just like boxing, it's not the same.

http://www.slap-shot.com/Hansons45.jpg

[wc1934]

I think things started going down hill when they took away the Championship rounds (10-15) and reduced the fights to 12 rounds.

The good old days - Friday nite fights - the squared circle -
and as Joe Frazier said ""Boxing is the only sport you can get your brain shook, your money took and your name in the undertaker book."

IMHO Great fighters/fights - in no particular order:
Ali/Frazier,
Hagler/Hearns,
Duran,
Julio Ceasar Chavez,
The real Sugar Ray (Robinson)
The Mongoose - Archie Moore
Willie Pep
Carlos Monzon
Mancini/ Haughton
The real Rocky- the Brockton Blockbuster, Rocky Marchegiano -UNDEFEATED
The raging Bull - Jake LaMotta

and the greatest, not Ali, but JOE LOUIS, who held the title from
1937 to 1949 - 12 YEARS - He defended his title something like 25 times.

One of my all time favorites - Alexis Arguello (for his heart and patriotism)

[rugbysecondrow]

I love boxing as a sport, toughness, fitness, tactical...just great! That said, the organization of boxing has ruined the sport. Watered down champions, fighters who don't fight the best. Manny Pacquiao is close to an old school fighter. He will fight anybody. Also, DeLahoya was the same. He bumped all sorts of weight classes to fight, although in the end it seemed like a pay day instead of a fight. When Hoya beat Vargas, nobody had Hoya.

Anyway, I have classic fights on DVD that I will rewatched, ESPN classic has some good programming as well.

Tyson was mentioned before, but he could have been the greatest ever. In his prime, not only did he destroy folks but he never took a clean hit. He had great defense, moving all the time, changing angles, exploding when ready. There are lots of punchers but he was much more than that and he seems to get minimized too easily.

I wish boxing could make a comeback though. Boxing is to baseball what UFC is to football.

[William]

Boxing is a one dimensional sport. Using the hands to pommel your opponent into submission. Within that sport there have been some great fighters during the hey days. Haggler, Herns, Ali, Frazier, Leonard etc... The sport was on the decline before MMA exploded on the scene due to a number of factors....

1.) PPV took it away from the masses and put it into the hands of those willing and able to shell out upwards of $50 a pop on top of paying for cable. Add Tyson coming in at that time with a long string of first and second round KO's and people started feeling ripped off.

2.) The plethora of organizations watering down the meaning of having a title, and a bunch of lack-luster fighters having belts as a result.

3.) The antics of Tyson getting more and more bizarre and thug like after the passing of Cus and later Rooney who seemed to have a calming effect on him. Once they were gone and king got his hooks into him it tuned into the freak show. Add the fans left after ppv and their lingering feelings of point number one and mix in the Hannibal Lector show and you can see why people got turned off.

This left the door open and MMA stepped right in. Don't get me wrong, I like watching a boxing match between two good opponents, but I find Muay Thai and MMA technically more exciting to watch.






William

[Birddog]

IMO, best fight ever was Norton/Holmes. 15 rounds, tied 7 rounds apiece at the 15th round start. Holmes wins by 1 point in a split decision. No pussyfooting around, no worthless rounds, no ropeadope,just 15 rounds of slugfest.

Don King killed the sport or what was left of it. The glory days were in the late 50's early 60's. In the late 50's there were Wednesday and Friday night fights broadcast live on network TV.

It could be argued that Archie Moore was the best of all time, but you could argue many others too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_Moore

[Hawker]

Boxing is a one dimensional sport. Using the hands to pommel your opponent into submission. Within that sport there have been some great fighters during the hey days. Haggler, Herns, Ali, Frazier, Leonard etc... The sport was on the decline before MMA exploded on the scene due to a number of factors....

1.) PPV took it away from the masses and put it into the hands of those willing and able to shell out upwards of $50 a pop on top of paying for cable. Add Tyson coming in at that time with a long string of first and second round KO's and people started feeling ripped off.

2.) The plethora of organizations watering down the meaning of having a title, and a bunch of lack-luster fighters having belts as a result.

3.) The antics of Tyson getting more and more bizarre and thug like after the passing of Cus and later Rooney who seemed to have a calming effect on him. Once they were gone and king got his hooks into him it tuned into the freak show. Add the fans left after ppv and their lingering feelings of point number one and mix in the Hannibal Lector show and you can see why people got turned off.

This left the door open and MMA stepped right in. Don't get me wrong, I like watching a boxing match between two good opponents, but I find Muay Thai and MMA technically more exciting to watch.


William

No offense but MMA doesn't appeal to me at all. I'm an older guy and that may be part of it as it seems to appeal to a younger demographic. I understand there is training and skill that goes into this but more often than not it seems that it either degrades into a wrestling match or something one notch above a bar fight. Different strokes I guess.

[Hawker]

IMO, best fight ever was Norton/Holmes. 15 rounds, tied 7 rounds apiece at the 15th round start. Holmes wins by 1 point in a split decision. No pussyfooting around, no worthless rounds, no ropeadope,just 15 rounds of slugfest.

Don King killed the sport or what was left of it. The glory days were in the late 50's early 60's. In the late 50's there were Wednesday and Friday night fights broadcast live on network TV.

It could be argued that Archie Moore was the best of all time, but you could argue many others too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_Moore


Ha! Used to watch the Gillette Friday nights with my grandfather probably around '58-59. Shoot, I'm getting old.

[William]

No offense but MMA doesn't appeal to me at all. I'm an older guy and that may be part of it as it seems to appeal to a younger demographic. I understand there is training and skill that goes into this but more often than not it seems that it either degrades into a wrestling match or something one notch above a bar fight. Different strokes I guess.

I don't disagree, but the same can be said about boxing. Some fights are very technical, some are just brawls.






William

[toaster]

Boxing is a television sport. Most of us will never see one live and ringside seating is VIP only. So boxing needs to get back on network television with some legitimate names and a legitimate sporting organization. If it's pay-per-view only then it's an event not a sport and MMA will get more viewers.

Back in the day, there was ABC and the Olympics and free ESPN on cable and some boxers worth watching...for free!

[Bud_E]

Ha! Used to watch the Gillette Friday nights with my grandfather probably around '58-59. Shoot, I'm getting old.

My dad and I watched those in living black and white - I still remember the theme song .

[Ken Robb]

My dad and I watched those in living black and white - I still remember the theme song .

"To look sharp and be on the ball" etc. :beer:

[Fixed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6cyy_rziuk
cheers

[rugbysecondrow]

I disagree William as I don't think that gives boxers proper credit. Boxing is footwork, setups, tactics and combinations. Sure, hands are what make contact, but it is very much all the dimensions, the whole body that facilitate it.

A boxer is like a good pitcher in baseball, or like a quarterback. Setting up punches, working a plan, adjusting and readjusting. Quarterbacks will setup all game for one long pass, pitchers will setup for the strike out pitch. Good boxers do the same thing. You have to have more patience than the instant gratification MMA crowd, but worth it for me.




Boxing is a one dimensional sport. Using the hands to pommel your opponent into submission. Within that sport there have been some great fighters during the hey days. Haggler, Herns, Ali, Frazier, Leonard etc... The sport was on the decline before MMA exploded on the scene due to a number of factors....

1.) PPV took it away from the masses and put it into the hands of those willing and able to shell out upwards of $50 a pop on top of paying for cable. Add Tyson coming in at that time with a long string of first and second round KO's and people started feeling ripped off.

2.) The plethora of organizations watering down the meaning of having a title, and a bunch of lack-luster fighters having belts as a result.

3.) The antics of Tyson getting more and more bizarre and thug like after the passing of Cus and later Rooney who seemed to have a calming effect on him. Once they were gone and king got his hooks into him it tuned into the freak show. Add the fans left after ppv and their lingering feelings of point number one and mix in the Hannibal Lector show and you can see why people got turned off.

This left the door open and MMA stepped right in. Don't get me wrong, I like watching a boxing match between two good opponents, but I find Muay Thai and MMA technically more exciting to watch.






William

[William]

I disagree William as I don't think that gives boxers proper credit. Boxing is footwork, setups, tactics and combinations. Sure, hands are what make contact, but it is very much all the dimensions, the whole body that facilitate it.

A boxer is like a good pitcher in baseball, or like a quarterback. Setting up punches, working a plan, adjusting and readjusting. Quarterbacks will setup all game for one long pass, pitchers will setup for the strike out pitch. Good boxers do the same thing. You have to have more patience than the instant gratification MMA crowd, but worth it for me.


Since I work with people who train in the fighting arts every day sometimes I have to remember that I should explain myself a little better. When I said boxing was one dimensional, I meant that only on the use of the hands as the delivery system, the use of good footwork, body angling and tactics within that dimension is a given. This also applies to Muay Thai and MMA.

I think there is a lot of slop ("Jack of all trades, master of none") in the MMA's right now due to it's quick rise in popularity, but make no mistake, there are some skilled people in those ranks.

In Thai boxing you have to make use of footwork, body angling, setups, tactics, timing, and combinations as well. Not only are you dealing with the hands, but you also dealing with the forearms, elbows, knees, shins, and feet being thrown at you. Many Thai boxers have gone on to become world champion and highly ranked boxers as well as successful Olympic wins.




William

[Fixed]

Rules

To be a fair stand-up boxing match in a 24-foot ring, or as near that size as practicable.
No wrestling or hugging (clinching) allowed.
The rounds to be of three minutes duration, and one minute's time between rounds.
If either man falls through weakness or otherwise, he must get up unassisted, 10 seconds to be allowed him to do so, the other man meanwhile to return to his corner, and when the fallen man is on his legs the round is to be resumed and continued until the three minutes have expired. If one man fails to come to the scratch in the 10 seconds allowed, it shall be in the power of the referee to give his award in favour of the other man.
A man hanging on the ropes in a helpless state, with his toes off the ground, shall be considered down.
No seconds or any other person to be allowed in the ring during the rounds.
Should the contest be stopped by any unavoidable interference, the referee to name the time and place as soon as possible for finishing the contest; so that the match must be won and lost, unless the backers of both men agree to draw the stakes.
The gloves to be fair-sized boxing gloves of the best quality and new.
Should a glove burst, or come off, it must be replaced to the referee's satisfaction.
A man on one knee is considered down and if struck is entitled to the stakes.
That no shoes or boots with spikes or sprigs be allowed. [6]
The contest in all other respects to be governed by revised London Prize Ring Rules.


it is not combat it is boxing ..they have a lot of rules .
imho
cheers

cheers

[William]

Rules


it is not combat it is boxing ..they have a lot of rules .
imho
cheers

cheers

There are always rules in sports (boxing, MMA, Muay Thai etc....). In combat, there is no such thing as a fair fight.





William

[rwsaunders]

Here are some rules for you, Willie... :cool:

Rules of Combat

USMC
Bring a weapon. Preferably, bring at least two. Bring all of your friends who have weapons. Bring their friends who have weapons.

Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.

Only hits count. Close doesn't count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough, nor using cover correctly.

Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)

If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a big weaponand a friend with a big weapon.

In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived and who didn't.

If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.

Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting is more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the weapon.

Use a weaponthat works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket."

Someday someone may kill you with your own weapon, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

In combat, there are no rules, always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

Have a plan.

Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.

Use cover or concealment as much as possible. The visible target should be in FRONT of YOUR weapon.

Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

Don't drop your guard.

Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.

Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them).

Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.

Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a ".4."

Army
See USMC Rules for combat
Add 60 to 90 days
Hope the Marines already destroyed all meaningful resistance

Navy
Spend three weeks getting somewhere
Adopt an aggressive offshore posture
Send in the Marines
Drink Coffee
Bring back the Marines

Air Force
Kiss the spouse good-bye
Drive to the flight line
Fly to target area, drop bombs, fly back.
Pop in at the club for a couple with the guys
Go home, BBQ some burgers and drink some more beer